WW LXXV: It's Always Tea Time Here

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Greenie kill first, though, I don't know if we can assume that the Wolves expected anything from her, on the other hand, she was suspected quite well too, so maybe there had to be a reason to kill her other than a no-trace kill.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

If there was anything that could lead the Wolves to think that way, it would be at most that Greenie's remark "you are no Seer", or something

I don't think that remark by Greenie by itself was necessarily it. Others made the same point, including me.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

As for Greenie's dreams, I really am not able to collect any definitely proven hints. It is also possible, however, that she has dreamed of some of the people who have died, which might happen. What she says about Nogrod does not seem to me necessarily like dreaming about him - and I have at least seen that she really tends to suspect him in many games (and he suspects her - which didn't happen that much here, but that does not say anything, it would've been more telling if it was the other way around). I think Greenie was in general rather careful in announcing what she possibly knew about people, which in this way is a pity, but what can we do.

It seems perfectly reasonable to me that Greenie would have dreamed of Nog (or Lommy), for obvious reasons. Actually, if she was going to dream of Nog, I would have expected it to come on Night 1. A vote for Nog on Day 1 would not have been so surprising from her. But coming as it did on Day 3, I'd be inclined to think there might be more behind it. Still could be a frame-up, though.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

It would be incredibly funny of Zil was a wolf. Wolves on the tops of suspicion lists all the time. But to be honest, Zil does make me suspicious: he thinks so differently all the time, he's been so wrong about things, it really doesn't seem very innocent anymore. On the other hand, the village has had three or four heavy suspects this far, and two of them have been wolves, so we might have Zil here as the quota innocent who just seems darn suspicious...

Thinks differently? I do try.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And really, toying with a scenario. If I was a wolf and she had dreamt of me wouldn't she have said that openly? She would have gotten at least one more dream and the wolves would be down to one after you lynched me toDay. Also she could have thus given us all the known innocents (or even the last wolf!) she had clear and openly and not leave us into this interpretation-game over them.

When Greenie gave her vote for you, it wasn't known yet that Glirdan was certainly a wolf, which, if she knew you were one, would mean there were two left. So in Greenie's eyes, maybe there was still enough uncertainty that she wanted to stay incognito for the time being.

[Nerwen]

#486
Examines "Glirdy-wagon", wondering "were the wolves trying to save Sally or are the wolves having a nightmarish start to the game?" Looks at the implications for Glirdan-voters in the scenarios that Glirdan was guilty and that he was innocent. If innocent, all three would look bad; if guilty, Lommy would look good but Skip and Inzil not so much, especially Zil.


#488. Clarifies a sentence in previous post.


#490
Looks at "those who walked their own paths" by not voting the favourites (Greenie, Agan, Shasta and Mira.) Finds all their votes somewhat suspicious and "would bet a lot for there being a wolf in this group - like in the group of Glirdy-voters".


#491
Looks at the Sally-voters. His own vote, Brinn's, Legate's and winty's look good; mine and Morsul's could go either way; Glirdy's was just self-preservation "whatever his role"; no comment on Nienna.

Comments: What's wrong with this post? Nothing– except that eight people voted Sally. How often has there not been a wolf in a bandwagon that big? And yet, he's "betting" on there being wolves only in the other, smaller groups.


#514.Announces he's back.


#521
Discusses Nienna, whose vote sealed Sally's fate

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now if Glirdan is innocent that looks quite good (which doeasn't mean Nienna couldn't have done it as a wolf) but if Glirdy is a wolf it tells us nothing.

–Finds Skip's defence of Glirdan "interesting", but only from the point of view that a Skipwolf would be afraid of having Glirdan lynched and shown to be innocent, thus exposing Skipwolf's evil intentions in voting him.

Comments: The first point is fine, though it's odd that the voter who did most to kill the wolf is the one he seems to find least innocent. The other is just weird– really contorted reasoning. Why couldn't they both be wolves? Isn't that the first thing that springs to mind? (He does mention that possibility a bit later, but only in passing.)


#525
Responding to Agan, says that Greenie's suspicion of him is probably just due to her desire to be original, or because she read his comments to Sally "in some idiosyncratic fashion", or because he has been "a little less in the frontline this time", or because "in the end she has not played that many games with me". Doesn't suspect her much, but questions her shifting attitude to Glirdan. Is suddenly talking about Glirdan as though he knows he's a wolf– however, this is probably just for the sake of the argument, though he doesn't state that.

–Agrees with Zil that he'd find him suspicious whether Glirdan was innocent or guilty.

Comments: Naturally, anyone would want to defend himself when another player expresses strong suspicion– yet this way of smoothly explaining away Greenie's attack to a third party does look more than a bit sinister in the light of her role.


#529Praises Shasta for spotting an odd similarity in the wording of Agan and Legate's vote-posts:

Originally Posted by Nogrod

There is at least the shared kind of lazyness "you all know he is suspicious so I'll just vote him for it and not bother to make my points against him".

#539
Votes Glirdan (Glirdan 4) but is not happy with this, pointing out that Sally and Glirdan's early bantering was just IC and that Glirdan tends to be a suspicion magnet. Says it would be useful to know his alignment however. Says Innocent!Glirdan would make Lommy, Zil and Skip look bad, while Wolf!Glirdan would make Shasta, Mira, Greenie and Agan look bad.


#541
"Undecided" about Mira, finds Greenie "innocentish".

General Comments: well, he doesn't come out of it looking nearly as bad as Glirdan did when I analysed him– but on the whole I'd say he's "leaning furry".

EDIT:X'd since Morsul at #597.
EDIT2:word left out.

[Mirandir]

Hey guys sorry for not being around yesterDay. Finals week got a little more ridiculous than I though (ie I got fired from my job for bulls**t reasons). Unfortunately, my participation today won't be much better since I'll be in a car with my parents for the majority of it.

Before I take off though, I really don't like the way Morsul looks today. Given, I haven't actually read all that closely yet, but he's talked more toDay than he has the entire game. That to me is suspicious.

Hopefully when I get home tonight I'll be able to actually back that statement up.

[Brinniel]

winty

Day 1

He very well could be simply a confused innocent or a really smart wolfywolfy....Currently I'm inclined to believe the first.

Day 2

Mind explaining those? Because they are rather vague and it just seems to me like you're trying to get by on the tailcoats of others, which happens to be a very Wolfish tactic by the by.

This is really interesting point. Going back quickly (and I mean I skimmed it) I could not find a single person who stated that Brinn is a strong player, and if it was said, it was said well after his vote. Where is he getting all this information? His fellow Wolfies??

winty has me at a crossroads. He could very well be a bewildered newbie, or he could be a really clever newbie-wolf with his packmates giving him hints at Night.

Nerwen

Day 1

And Nerwen's sigh threw me off there too...A sigh of exasperation. Perhaps either because she is exasperated with the newbie thing or perhaps a sigh of exasperation of her fellow packmate?

Seemed a little too overprotective of winty initially, but that could easily have been her being exasperated with the newbie.

Nogrod

Day 1

For some reason I never suspect this guy....Maybe it's just because he always comes across as the level-headed one among us (which is saying something this time around ) or maybe it's just a charm he has....Although his vote for Fea has me a little worried. Voting for her simply for initiating the voting for Lottie? What reason is that? The bandwagon for Lottie (at least the voting anyway) did not start until well AFTER she had voted.....Hmmm....

Mira

Day 1

I have no read of my fellow tea patron

Day 2

Anybody else worried about Mira and Nerwen? They have been relatively quiet this game, although Mira is a little more worrisome then Nerwen as the latter has been making some great contributions to the game. I'd love to hear more from both, but more so Mira.

This feels too much like a bandwagon....albeit, it is with a known innocent. However, it is quite plausible, especially with her lack of reasoning, that she is a Wolf is Mira clothing. Will have to see what she has said since this to get a better read off her.

Mira has made my eyebrows rise after reading those last few posts of hers.

Aganzir

Day 1

Giving a pass to her as she hasn't played in a year and I don't want to see her go just yet and has also been making some wonderful contributions to the game.

Day 2

This seems a little overly defensive to me...but as it is in response to Lottie who has been hounding everyone with biased reasoning, it could very well be that Agan is simply exasperated.

Inziladun

Day 1

No read on His Grace

Shasta

Day 1

His vote for Greenie came out of nowhere and looks to me as if it is a Wolf trying to perhaps save one of his own from being lynched. Yet would a Wolf be so bold?

++Shasta

Yes, this will probably end up being a throw-away vote, but I actually do find him a little suspicious. His vote for Greenie came out of absolutely nowhere and really had no substantial backing to it.

Legate

Day 1

Has definitely been one of the few people talking sense all Day. Yet his vote for Lottie has me a little perplexed. He stated that he did not like all the bandwagon votes and suspicions for her yet he himself later voted her? True he had stated suspicions of her for awhile, but his vote almost seems as if he's making it to ensure her being lynched....Hmmmm....

Legate is starting to stand out to me. He's making concise arguments, yes, but some of the points he is bringing up (like the one mentioned above) are things that would be fairly obvious to all of us with the exception of our new players. So why point it out?

Day 2

The reasoning for his vote is clear and respectable, but the overall tone seems a little too defensive.

Morsul

Day 1

Has seemed very Morsul like....which bugs me....Yet last time I voted him, he ended up being the Hunter and he Hunter killed me....So I think I'm going to leave him be for the time being.

Nienna

Day 1

Seems to be flying under the radar....perhaps a little too much, at least for my liking. Wolvish tactic to stay clear perhaps?

Lommy

Day 1

I have no read on her.

Brinniel

Day 1

Her posts all well thought out and full of substance.

----

On Day 2, he started with putting Legate and Sally as suspicious. That makes Legate look better since I doubt he'd list two wolves there. He later lists Mira and winty as possible suspects. Not sure about Mira, but the way he comments on winty makes it seem like he's preparing himself to join a winty bandwagon if that were to happen on a later Day. He voted Shasta on Day 1...since it was a throwaway, it could be wolf-on-wolf, but I don't know how likely that actually is.

I should go through Sally's comments as well, but I'm running out of time and would like to look at yesterDay first.

[Mirandir]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Not sure about Mira, but the way he comments on winty makes it seem like he's preparing himself to join a winty bandwagon if that were to happen on a later Day. He voted Shasta on Day 1...since it was a throwaway, it could be wolf-on-wolf, but I don't know how likely that actually is.

Darling, I'm a girl. You know this.

[Brinniel]

Those hesitant about a Glirdan lynch:

Inziladun

I guess it's possible. And now that I think of it, if Glirdan had been lynched and he was a wolf, Sally could be in some pretty good graces right now, even without a false Seer-reveal.
Still, I don't know that it's all that likely Glirdan is a wolf.

Nerwen (bordering on wishy-washy)

Might well be. But again, if her cry of "Glirdan's a wolf!" was meant to be the start of her "reveal", I have to wonder why she left it so late.

Did she expect more people to pick up on her Seer-hints than was in fact the case?

skip

He came after Sally early, long before it became clear that either one of these two would die. I believe Glirdan proactively participating in lynching Sally is a sign of his innocence although not proof. At this point only a very shrewd wolf would actively go after a fellow wolf, because, let’s face it, a wolf lynched is a step towards a village victory, and an innocent lynched is a step away from that, there’s no getting around that simple fact. A wolf jumping on the bandwagon, yes why not, but actively working to make that bandwagon happen, I doubt it. I could be wrong and maybe that’s everyday business in the ww-world, but to me that feels like too much of a gamble for uncertain profits. For the moment Glirdan has redeemed himself.

Aganzir

Morsul looks better to me today, I can follow his logic about sally. However I don't think the fact that she tried to lynch Glirdan tells us anything about his role.

Those eager for one:

Morsul

++Glirdan

It got me one wolf so maybe It'll get me another.

Nienna

Morsul, that line from Sally has been bothering me as well. I think that the chances are actually quite high that Glirdy is a wolf. She may have been thinking that if I switched and he was a wolf she would be redeemed or she could make a false seer-reveal and if she was lynched it could be passed off as the meaningless banter of a wolf trying to save herself.

Lommy

I think it looks like Glirdan was Sally's fellow wolf, not because of any seer reveal plot (I don't believe in that) but just because it looks like that. I think Sally could've tried to make Glirdan look better - or at least make us really divided about him - by attacking him so strongly in the end. What he said about Zil makes me feel it's pure bluff meant to confuse us, and means Zil's probably innocent. She wouldn't have dared to highlight two of her fellows that way. Also, Glirdan's attack on Sally was very wolf-on-wolvish, I think Sally's mates would've known she's in trouble and used that to their own advantage... (not necessarily all of them, but at least one or two. Which makes me think, ha, we have only lynched a cobbler and a wolf this far. Go us!)

Wishy-washy:

Legate

Otherwise... as for Glirdan and Sally, I think sally's comment can mean either. Whatever is Glirdan's role, Sally either wanted to a) if Glirdan is innocent, to make us wonder about her comment, whether it was so obvious that it was Wolf-on-Wolf or something (the same btw. concerning her comment in her list about Inzil "he's innocent! Don't ask why, he just is" or how it was), and of course preferring if by any chance Glirdy was lynched instead of her - it would give her at least one more Night to live and make us waste yesterDay's lynch and then use toDay's lynch on her, or b) if he's her packmate, she really wouldn't care much whoever of them gets lynched, either way it will be a Wolf (that goes also for all the other Wolves voting, of course, let us bear in mind), and in such a case, if he was lynched, yes, she could gamble toMorrow with a Seer reveal or something (although I think it will be somewhat hard for her to get definite support, but it might lure the real Seer out, and in general sow confusion), or simply, if she was lynched (like she was), we might think that Glirdan was innocent because of all that.

Nogrod

(see post 486)


Votes

Morsul -> Glirdan
Brinn -> Glirdan (2)
Greenie -> Nogrod
Legate -> Inzil
Agan -> Inzil (2)
Lommy -> Glirdan (3)
Skip -> Shasta
Shasta -> Greenie
Nog -> Glirdan (4)
Zil -> Glirdan (5)
Lottie -> Glirdan (6)
Nienna - > Glirdan (7)
Nerwen - > Glirdan (8)

Who looks bad:

Legate: He was very wishy-washy with his thoughts of Glirdan, leaving the possibilities open but not really sticking to one side or the other. Then he ends up voting Inziladun.

Aganzir: That's a big maybe. She would look especially bad if Inzil is innocent since it'd look like she's trying to start another bandwagon. But then, Agan isn't the type to be hesitant about running over her packmates if it made her look better.

Nogrod: His wishy-washy attitude about it. He votes Glirdan but only until it looks evident that he probably can't be saved. An easy spot to hide in a bandwagon.

Nerwen: She seems slightly hesitant about a Glirdan lynch, but ends up going with the flow by the end of the Day...a bit suspicious to me.

Who looks good:

Lommy: She was pretty eager to lynch Glirdan from the start...too eager for wolf-on-wolf, I think.

Nienna: Same as Lommy, though not quite as eager.

[wilwarin538]

Greenie's narration is up.

[Thinlómien]

Back here.

Originally Posted by Shasta

However, Lommy did put forward that theory about a Shasta-wolf... it makes one wonder.

If it helps you dearie, my analysis this far looks like you're very unlikely wolf.

Not really anything else to commnet on right now.

Off to continue my analysis.

[Nienna]

I'm here. I don't really have much to contribute as people are already doing a thorough analysis of Greenie, Glirdy, and Nog. I'm working on a pretty massive project but I'll be in and out.

Nog is the most worrisome for me today. I would love to hear more from him but he's seeming very nonchalant.

[Thinlómien]

Decided to post my massive post in three parts. Two other parts still in progress...


General issues

Since I was rereading the thread I managed to glimpse the rules and noticed the Unicorn, of whom I had completely forgotten about. So we do have a chance to get Greenie back and tell her dreams! Yay. But of course, we shouldn't put our hopes in that, the possibilty that the Unicorn is going to bring her back and not someone else is quite slight...


Who could Miss Greenie have dreamt of on Night1?

people who didn't post anything before she left: -
people who only posted banter etc until after she left: Mira, Shasta, Boro (she xed with Boro's first serious post when she left)

Now, it's possible she dreamt of wolf Shasta on Night1, but then she would have come out if she also dreamt of wolf Nogrod, and as I feel quite confident about Nog's guilt, I think she didn't dream of Shasta ('cos she couldn't have dreamt of innocent Shasta either). However, if Nogrod turns out innocent, then looking at Shasta would make sense.

I think her Night1 dream was Boro or innocent Mira, her Night2 dream was innocent Skippy and her Night3 dream was wolf Nogrod. Ergo (at least until I complete my analysis on the wolves), Skip looks good to me, Mira possibly a bit better than before and Nogrod quite bad.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I'm quite irritated with the light of my life for being the next person to steal my thunder. I did say I was coming back.

Ah well.

Lommy, you might be about to address this in your "megapost", but do you have a reason for thinking Boro was Greenie's dream for Night 1?

[Thinlómien]

Sally's interactions with people

Sally towards others

Day1
- banter with Mira and Zil
- thanks Agan for clarification, sort of banter with Morsul
- agrees with Shasta about stuff, for example Morsul being hypocritical
- instructs Skip to use highlighting
- reacts to Shasta's drawback from Morsul suspicion by saying she still thinks he might've been serious Somehow this makes me think both Shasta and Morsul are innocent - flimsy grounds I know, but would a wolf jump on a fellow's random suspicion and would the other wolf then draw it back? or would a wolf jump on an innocent's erraneous point on her fellow?
- jokingly says all Europeans (=Lommy, Legate, Greenie, Agan, Nog) are evil
- is concerned about Legate's vote
- is surprised by Shasta's vote for Greenie
- votes Legate
- says that voting Legate was a better option than voting Winty, Brinn or Mira
- explains to Morsul what she meant by "lemming"
- wants Shasta to stop "following" her

Day2
- banter with Nienna
- Nogrod is suspiciously quiet, Winty's newbie pass is gone and he's suspicious, (curious interlude: first person mentioned on her list was Glirdan the fellow wolf, second was Nogrod whom I suspect of being a fellow wolf and third is Winty... does it mean he's the last wolf?), no idea about Mira, Agan, Inzil is "plain and simple" not a wolf, Shasta's strange and possibly a wolf, Nerwen's not evil 'cos she's giving evil vibes, still suspicious of Legate, Morsul is an opportunistic bandwagoner wolf, Nienna's safe, not concerned of Skip or Brinn, slightly worried of Lommy
- suspects Shasta
- redirects questioning Nienna to her suspicions in an overtly friendly tone which makes me think Nienna is innocent... why try to buddy up a fellow wolf?
- tells Brinn to go to bed
- tells Skip he can still prevent her death
- is slightly offended for receiving Nienna's vote and no explanation A wolvish "Et tu, mi Brute?"or the show of a dying lycanthrope?
- tells Nienna to lynch Glirdy


Others towards Sally

Day1
- Nerwen banters with her
- Lommy has no read on Sally because of banter
- Legate is surprised by Sally's amount of sense thus far ...what?
- Aganzir wants more content from her
- Lommy places her in the middle of three categories, calls her crazy
- Agan doesn't want to repeat herself to her
- Agan clarifies Greenie's words to her
- Nog has no opinion of her, but used to think her too careful in the beginning
- Nienna claims she can read her and is not alarmed yet, won't vote her
- Nienna is worried by her avoiding people calling her wolf

Day2
- Nienna doesn't understand her
- Lommy questions Lottie's wolf quartet suspicion which includes her
- Legate doesn't like her vote from Day1 and will keep and eye on her
- Legate takes Lottie's aforementioned wolf quartet theory seriously
- Lommy considers her "Save Private Lottie operation" very fishy, mentions she discredited Legate's vote and says she's now one of her new suspects
- Agan wants more substance from her and is "not too fond of her"
- Nerwen speculates on her possible wolvish chagrin
- Lommy puts her to the most suspicious of five categories, doesn't like wishy-washyness and throwaway vote
- Morsul votes her, dislikes her admitting starting a bandwagon and likes Lottie's suspicion against her
- Nienna thinks Morsul's vote on her is wolf-on-wolf
- Nerwen votes her, says she seems the most suspicious thus far and calls it a bandwagon
- Zil says she's the most suspicious of Lottie's quartet
- Agan has nothing against her death and thinks her death would be educational
- Agan thinks she should be suspected more often so that she'd be more serious
- Mira is "on the fence" about her
- Agan is unsure about her
- Lommy is not convinced enought of her guilt to give her a third vote
- Legate is unsure and suspicious about her
- Legate thinks her questionable and thinks other people have raised good points against her, places her in the most suspicious of three categories
- Legate considers voting her since there's support for that suspicion
- Winty considers voting her
- Legate suspects she will be voted by many
- Nogrod says there are fair points against her
- Legate is torn between voting her and two others
- Shasta thinks Morsul's suspicion of her looks opportunistic
- Legate solomonises about her and Inzil, thinks he'll vote her, note: Legate's general reluctant and wishy-washy suspicion of her doesn't look good at all
- Morsul's offended by her calling him a lemming If he was a fellow, I think they'd sort it out overNight... probably
- Legate votes her, says her latest post made his decision for him
- Nogrod wonders about her comments about Zil and Brinn
- Winty votes her
- Morsul likes her defenses but won't change his vote
- Nogrod starts suspecting her on losing her nerve
- Nog votes her, thinks she's more suspicious than Glirdy
- Nienna likes Nog's points against her
- Nienna tells her to stop defending herself and start accusing people
- Nienna asks for details about her suspicions
- Brinn thinks her flock-behaviour, defensiveness and throwaway vote speak against her
- Brinn votes her
- Skip asks if she's dying
- Skip suspects her a little and thinks it'd be interesting to know her role but also has some sympathy for her
- Nienna votes her

Conclusions a bit later, I don't want to make this any longer anymore!


xed with Shasta

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Lommy, you might be about to address this in your "megapost", but do you have a reason for thinking Boro was Greenie's dream for Night 1?

Not really, except for that everything else seems more unlikely. That's the Night whose dream I'm the most unsure of.

[Aganzir]

Sorry, I've been horribly busy all day (first I had to finish a paper, then I had lectures and after that took a bus to another city to get a chair for me & Lommy's future apartment)... And I feel totally useless coming in so late.

Not surprised if Nog turns out to be a wolf. His response to my "I don't get why Green suspects him" sent chills down my spine when I read it in the night... Like, "why are you trying to downplay her suspicions and buddy up with me?"

Originally Posted by Shasta

May not mean much, but I think it's funny that they said basically the exact same thing.

No it means Legate & I are wolves and had agreed to vote for Inzil and say exactly that.

Just noting that Inzil defended Glirdan, saying he'd rather vote for Mira or Green (who had just voted for Nog).

I'm somewhat worried about Nerwen. Lommy said something about how she's calm and rational and appears to know more than the rest, and I can see where she's coming from. Yesterday she accused skippy of defending Glirdan, and there's something about her tone that suggests she knew Glirdy was a wolf. Like, she took a step ahead and used it as grounds for suspicion while most of us still didn't know Glirdan's role for sure.

Originally Posted by Inzil

And Glirdan? That was a most admirable ploy by Sally in trying to get him lynched Day 2. If that was just some fast thinking on her part, and wasn't planned out, I find it all the more amazing.

What's the point of saying that? Was it a nightly plan or not, it didn't work, and the whole comment is sort of creepy.

Originally Posted by Green, day 2

Nogrod – Usually, at this point of the game, I'm convinced he's a wolf. This far I guess he's never been one when we've played together. So now I'm wondering if I should get worried as I've found no reason to suspect him...

The comment could be interpreted so that she's dreamt of Wolfgrod but hasn't found a reason to suspect him yet without seeming to grasp at straws or getting the wolves after her which makes her frustrated.

I really don't like Inzil's analysis of Green's posts. It seems he's just looking for people she suspected and downplaying the fact that she called some people innocent.

It's also possible that Green dreamt of Lottie on night 2, and I wouldn't be surprised if it was the case.

Originally Posted by Lottie

I think maybe she did dream of Agan; she's been very solid in her support.

In that case I was most likely her night 1 dream. But I don't know, she kept flip-flopping about me and on day 2 she said "I'm not saying she's innocent" which a seer might not say about a dreamt-of innocent.

Originally Posted by Lottie

she dreamed either Agan or Legate, probably Agan, and Skip, and then Nog.

I'd add Brinn on the list. I think she always called her innocentish...

Originally Posted by Zil on Nog

Would he have been unnerved enough by her vote of him to have taken that risk?

Certainly because there is still one wolf. If he thought Green had found him out, he wanted to eliminate her before she managed to come out and possibly reveal the last wolf.

Originally Posted by Morsul

These three show an odd trend however Each One mentions a slip-up maybe She keeps saying something like "Wow I'm glad no one thought I was a wolf for that." As if relieved no one picked up on her mess up

I don't get what you're trying to say.

Originally Posted by Morsul

Seems to want us to not entirely trust our seer

No I didn't because as I said, I've won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler whom she had seen as innocent.

Originally Posted by Morsul

First off thanks for calling me Lazy

You're welcome, if you want to interpret it that way. It wasn't really you that I called lazy, but the way you formulated your suspicions. You didn't have good enough reasons for me to call you innocent. Live with it.

Originally Posted by Morsul

wolves can hide behind these jokes and she's bee using them a lot.

A few days ago I was coming home in the evening and while sitting at the metro station some nutjobs came to me. One told me that some day I will see, that some day I will be cast into a fiery pit, and I said 'Okay,' and then another said to him: 'It's too late! Evil has already claimed her!'
I thought to tell it here but decided I had already joked enough about being evil. Does it comfort you at all?

Originally Posted by Morsul

Suspects Inzil for listening to him... Another Argument I've had. Why do we bother listing reasons unless we expect to persuade anyone?

It's not the fact that people do it but the way they do it.

Originally Posted by Morsul

I really don't like the way Agan's going after people who haven't used their retractions

Not doing that. I've been explaining why I think we should use them as soon as possible, but I haven't accused anyone of it.

Originally Posted by Morsul

Line she does something she condemns others for she take's nienna's word and changes suspicion.

No I didn't. You're making things up. I think I said quite clearly that I had not changed my mind about Mira but would like to hear more from her (and still do). All Nienna did was to explain why she thought in a different way than I, which I had asked her to do.

Originally Posted by Morsul

I'm Opportunistic Lazy a Horrible Person should be lynched right now

I think you fail to see I wasn't attacking you personally. I thought, and still do, that your playing style looked opportunistic. Live with it (or change your style).

Originally Posted by Morsul

Last Paragraph agains says she put Sally as supicious based only on what others said isn't that terrible thing to do Agan...

I think you misread. That's why I took her away from my guilty list. Because I didn't have much against her myself, apart from what others had said.

I don't know what to make of Morsul's analysis, but to be honest it amuses me. Anyway. As far as I'm concerned, people usually analyse others in order to make up their mind about someone, not to find every possible reason for suspecting them. Which I don't think was Morsul's intention, but which he seemed to be doing.
And I have no idea if it points toward his guilt or not. A few days ago I would totally have been at his throat for writing something like that, but now I neither know nor care much.

Lottie you're sweet! ♥ :-D

Lommy has a good point about the wolves not killing Greenie unless she had given them a reason to worry when they could've gone after Lottie instead, I think.

Originally Posted by Morsul

It doesn't say sees "Innocent or Wolf" it says "Their ROLE" Why wouldn't we trust a seers dream Agan...

*rolleyes* Because of this:

1 Cobbler: wants the Wolves to win, but is counted as an innocent and seen as innocent by the Seer.

And the same applies to the cursed (who doesn't even know her role), in case you're interested.

I like Nerwen's Nog analysis. However it doesn't help me make up my mind about Nerwen. Either she's innocent, or she has decided to go heavily against her fellow in order to better her own chances of survival. Unless Nog turns out to be innocent, in which case I don't know either.

Originally Posted by Brinn

She would look especially bad if Inzil is innocent since it'd look like she's trying to start another bandwagon.

I was. To me Inzil's death would have revealed more than Glirdan's, given that I had been concentrating on him quite a lot and on Glirdy not at all. I'm not sorry it was Glirdy who died but I'd still like to lynch Inzil.

I think Brinn looks good. I know she can be a horrible as a (lone) wolf but at the moment she's very helpful in an innocent way.

I'm prepared to vote for Nog today because I think he's our best bet. And even if he happens to be innocent, it's better for us to be rid of him than to keep wondering whether we should kill him or not.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I am back here, but I feel sort of... exhausted. Well, been walking around the city for three hours straight and then two hours with an one-hour pause... spent the last half an hour with partially reading and partially eating. I think I will spend some time with the latter yet. My hands really don't feel like typing (although I have no idea what they have to do with walking, but it simply is like that), so for now I will limit myself to few one-line comments.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Uh-oh... This doesn't make any sense.

I mean really. There was that "you are no seer" -thing, but that's basically the only thing one could say that would hint towards her being the seer. So the wolves got really lucky this time. But getting lucky doesn't explain why they chose her. For some actual reason or just to confuse us?

Okay. One scenario: like someone said already, maybe they were taking even more heat than we know? Making a totally odd kill would keep us going around the subject for quite a while - and thus we might let our main suspicions from yesterDay to recede?

Well I'm not impressed by that interpretation but at the moment I can't think of a better one.

Btw. I do appreciate the effort of trying to figure out whom she dreamt of but as you can see, Greenie was clearly intentionally ambiguous about her knowledge... to a point we have no way of "knowing" anything from her posting (we should read her closely and try to form some opinions of them to be sure but I'm afraid that we can't quite trust those interpretations fully). It's always a bit unfair to speak bad of the dead, but I really think she should have been a tad more forthcoming with her knowledge. Maybe she felt she was safe, but going to N4 without giving even one clear hint is a little reckless.

And really, toying with a scenario. If I was a wolf and she had dreamt of me wouldn't she have said that openly? She would have gotten at least one more dream and the wolves would be down to one after you lynched me toDay. Also she could have thus given us all the known innocents (or even the last wolf!) she had clear and openly and not leave us into this interpretation-game over them.

I do think Greenie is smart enough to have gathered that.

Well, but obviously she didn't. One thing that comes to my mind is that if she didn't have really any strong support for her claim, especially if she e.g. has dreamed about some people who were already dead, she wouldn't dare to come forth. Heck, there is even the unlikely scenario that she dreamed about ONLY the dead people. (Although that's of course a bit over the top.) Anyway, I think Nogrod is a bit too "pessimistic" here - or also deliberately covering the fact that he killed Greenie. In any case, not being able to uncover anything is one thing, but denying the possibility and not even trying is another.

There are, from my point of view, basically two options. Either the kill was done to frame Nogrod and drive us away from the current (resp. yesterDay's) main suspects, which for me would mean e.g. Inzil especially, or the kill was done to kill a Seer, which would mean most likely a Wolfgrod. I can't see much of any other possibility behind these two and thus will be probably voting according to it toDay.

I agree with what Lommy says, and with what Brinn says here:

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I do think the possibility of a Nogwolf is realistic. For one thing, I wouldn't be at all surprised that Greenie would choose to dream Nogrod, especially seeing the single comment she wrote about him before Day 3. And again, I don't see why the wolves would've chosen to kill her, unless they had a reason to suspect she was the seer. Her comments on Nogrod are the only ones that look potentially seerish...everything else she says seems a bit too vague. The question is would a Nogwolf kill Greenie knowing that if she is the seer it might put him in the spotlight? At this point, I think so. With half the team and their cobbler down, the wolves aren't exactly in a good position and couldn't afford a seer reveal. And a seer reveal could've been quite likely toDay considering Greenie might've been a heavy suspect after yesterDay. Looking suspicious is better than becoming a known wolf. If Nogrod is a wolf, it's best to keep in mind he would've been well aware that killing her would make him look suspicious if she did turn out as the seer, so I imagine that a Nogwolf would come into toDay prepared to defend himself.

Now it could just be that Greenie was killed at random, a lucky guess from the wolves that also frames an innocent Nogrod. But I still have trouble believing that simply because I wouldn't understand why the wolves would kill someone who had the possibility of getting lynched toDay unless they had reason to believe she need to be eliminated.

Let me also note that if Nog was a Wolf, if he suspected Greenie of dreaming of him, by leaving the Seer alive one more Night, he would also risk another of his fellows (i.e. the last one, in this scenario) being dreamt about, so it would definitely come to eliminating her as first priority. (Not to speak of the fact that if she revealed, the Ranger would've likely protected her at least for one Night.)

The main point for the reasoning that Greenie was killed because of Seerishness is still the fact that the Wolves did not kill Loslote, even though that would make the most sense!

So much for one-liners

EDIT: x-ed with 2/3 of Lommy and the rest

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

I see you are making bad calculations...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Massive disagreement with Nogrod:

I actually disagree with the massiveness of your disagreement... Well at least with the point 2.

1) Greenie's smart, but because she was suspected so much and she hadn't posted anything obviously seerish (as we have noticed when trying to analyse her dreams), I think she would've dared not to come out, especially if she had lost one dream (dreamt of someone who died) at some point, which is an option we have to keep in mind.

According to your scenario she had dreamt of at least one wolf (me) - and if we contiune with that scenario probably also of another (Glirdan) because she put us both into the same category of "bad". If I was a wolf and she had dreamt of me but not Glirdy, why would she mess with our heads by claiming me and Glirdy belonging to the same group? So if she had two wolves bagged why didn't she come forwards with it? I feel you're really trying to force your point now and it doesn't look too good.

2) Looking at a seer's posts is never a bad thing. You may be pessimistic (or a wolf), but I'm not. I have correctly interpreted a dead seer's dreams before and Greenie is just a tad more difficult challenge. You of all people should remember this (remember the last game you modded?). There's no way for us to find the absolute truth about Greenie's dreams, but we can make good guesses which can help us in our suspicions. A bit the same way a wolf's fellow wolves can't be absolutely logically found out from his/her posts but we can make good guesses to one way or another... Besides, currently we could even afford to be misguided for a Day or two and people tend to rethink things in the light of new events.

Well, first of all there is a way to get "absolute truths" from the seer's dreams and that is when the seer comes forwards, tells the dreams openly and dies to prove her claim to seership. And Greenie knows that.

Sadly she didn't give us that option which probably tells us that she had a) no wolves, and b) she had less than three innocents.

But yes, I truly agree that we should speculate about the possible dreams - I actually said it in my post back there - but you Lommy seem to be picky with what you take into account and what you don't... And I also agree that we can afford a mislynch or two right now looking at the numbers.

Surely the only way for me to prove I'm right is that you lynch me, and well that's okay. As I said, we can afford a mislynch. I understand the situation perfectly well. But I do recommend you fight over it and then when I'm dead you draw your conclusions based on what people thought of my lynching.

Surely I'd like to stay around for a Day or two as fex. toMorrow I would have time to really delve into this, but well that's not up to me.

Anyway Lommy's trigger-happiness has raised her up in my suspicions quite a lot.


There were some other things I thought I'd say but I have forgotten. I'll go back to the thread and be right back.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*


EDIT: X'd with Agan & Legate

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Originally Posted by Agan

Lommy has a good point about the wolves not killing Greenie unless she had given them a reason to worry when they could've gone after Lottie instead, I think.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

The main point for the reasoning that Greenie was killed because of Seerishness is still the fact that the Wolves did not kill Loslote, even though that would make the most sense!

Would you explain to me why the wolves would wish to kill Lottie? She is not the cursed, as our moddess herself specifically told us if I recall it right. Why would they waste their kill on Lottie?

Now all you three can't be wolves so then you just think lazily. Heh, the way you treat this whole bussiness with me actrually underlines it pretty well.

Think, please. Check my last post as well. And think. Please.


(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Either the kill was done to frame Nogrod and drive us away from the current (resp. yesterDay's) main suspects, which for me would mean e.g. Inzil especially, or the kill was done to kill a Seer, which would mean most likely a Wolfgrod.

I agree. However I don't think Greenie suspected Nog heavily enough for the wolves to think they could frame Nog by killing her, and therefore your second option seems to me more likely. If she hadn't actually been the seer Nog might have got away with it, but now I think we're better off if we lynch him.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If I was a wolf and she had dreamt of me but not Glirdy, why would she mess with our heads by claiming me and Glirdy belonging to the same group? So if she had two wolves bagged why didn't she come forwards with it?

Maybe because she didn't want to appear too obvious? I remember a game where the guy who be seer put both Fea (dreamt of wolf) and me (not dreamt of innocent) as evil and everybody thought we both must be guilty... So, wise or not, seers do that. And given her posting, does it look like she had dreamt of Glirdan?

Originally Posted by Nog

Would you explain to me why the wolves would wish to kill Lottie? She is not the cursed, as our moddess herself specifically told us if I recall it right. Why would they waste their kill on Lottie?

Would Mr. Cat like to explain to me why the wolves would not want to kill a known innocent?
Or did you just betray something of your night talk? Are the wolves only desperate to find the cursed now?

[Thinlómien]

Glirdan's interactions with people

Glirdan towards others

Day1
- banter with Mira and Shasta
- welcomes Winty and thinks him innocent although recognises Nerwen's point against him, banter defends himself against Lommy's "complaints" of banter, argues with Morsul about Day1s, apologises to Agan for lack of content and "flatters" her, loves Lommy for slightly dissing phrasing about him, gives a vote pass for out of game reasons to ww, Skip and Agan I think I'm becoming paranoid but this makes me slightly uneasy about Winty...
- never suspects Nog but is now worried about his vote, has no read on Mira, Lommy or Zil, approves of Agan's contributions and of Brinn's posting, suspects Shasta's vote yet sort of flip-flops, talks about Nerwen's protectiveness of ww, says Legate talks sense but doesn't like his vote, is bugged by Morsul because of a previous game, Nienna is too much under the radar
- not voting: Winty, Skip, Agan, Brinn & Morsul, probably not voting: Nerwen, Mira, Inzil, Nienna & Lommy, could vote: Nogrod, Legate & Shasta
- votes Shasta, admits throwawayishness

Day2
- likes Morsul's points
- asks Winty to explain himself
- thinks Legate has good points but is defensive, suspects him and ends up having him in his suspicion list sort of seriously, considers Agan defensive as well, doesn't want to defend himself against Lommy, agrees with Brinn, wants to hear more and is worried about Mira and Nerwen
- suspectes Winty based on Agan's point, suspects Mira based on bandwagon-suspicions against Greenie
- asks Nog for a clarification, rebukes Winty for not giving reasons for his vote

Day3
- wasn't around to say anything


Others towards Glirdan

Day1
- Lommy says he's too excited about IC posting but not necessarily guilty
- Legate notifies on his bantering
- Aganzir wants content from him... in the exact same words as from Sally! Curious incident...
- Lommy places him the middle of three categories, notes on there being little substance, banters
- Nog is annoyed and slightly suspicious of him because of his style
- Nienna has no read on him and puts him to the a bit less than a half of the village whom she could vote

Day2
- Morsul thinks him either suspicious or that "the wolves picked the person who pushed their cobbler friend over the edge"
- Lommy questions Lottie's wolf quartet suspicion which includes him
- Legate takes Lottie's aforementioned wolf quartet theory seriously
- Lommy disapproves of his reasons to try save Lottie
- Agan accepts his apology from Day1, comments on his points and says she likes him for now
- Lommy puts him to the most suspicious of five categories, doesn't like non-committal throwaway Day1 vote 'cos he suspected all the main lynch candidates
- Skip classifies him as a wishy-washy low-profile wolf candidate
- Zil says he'd like to have a closer look at him
- Agan has no opinion on him
- Lommy votes him
- Legate has no idea or suspicion on him
- Winty mentions him in shirriff speculation
- Legate says his sadness on Boro's death seemed more forced than Agan's, but doesn't like the point against them anyway
- Winty considers voting him
- Legate suspects he will be voted by many
- Nogrod says there have been some fair points raised against him
- Shasta doesn't have a read on him but smells bandwagonishness
- Shasta thinks some of Lottie's points against him "plain stink"
- Nog doesn't consider him as suspicious as Sally
- Winty answers his question
- Brinn thinks he has a fair point about Winty
- Skip votes him to open up an option for Sally lynch and says he's had vague suspicions about him all along
- Zil has a lots of points against Glirdy (won't recapitulate) and votes him

Day3
- Morsul thinks he's a wolf based on his theory of Sally planning a false reveal on Day2
- Zil thinks it's unlikely he and Sally were fellows given Sally's last-minute full frontal on him
- Zil admits Morsul's point but doesn't still think his wolvishness very likely
- Morsul votes him on gut-feeling, is confident Are Morsul's early votes to good to be innocent, asks I (like somebody already did before)?
- Nienna agrees with Morsul that Sally's post points at his guilt
- Zil starts to doubt his own earlier conclusion about G's innocence
- Brinn ponders the possibility of him being in cahoots with Sally, doesn't reach a conclusion
- Nerwen wonders about his conncetion with Sally, seems slightly more for than against
- Shasta agrees with Zil's previous Day suspicions of him but leaves analysing him to others
- Winty wants to analyse him and Sally's interactions
- Brinn uses him in a speculation over Nienna's role
- Lommy brings forth points against him and thinks he looks very bad but recommends looking at others too
- Lommy thinks he has funny wolvish giveaway bahaviour, uses him in a speculation over Nog's role and adds one more point against him
- Skip thinks his active pursuit of Sally makes him look innocent
- Nerwen disagrees with Skip's aforementioned point
- Skip wonders about him and Sally's Day1 banter
- Legate wishy-washes on his role and relations with various people (too long to recapitulate and I'm tired) in two posts
- Brinn wonders what to do with him, would like to hear his defense
- Nerwen analyses him and Sally's interactions, concludes he's suspicious but has also a few points for his innocence
- Nog analyses the wagon against him, doesn't present an opinion on the ovject of the wagon himself
- Zil explains his earlier thoughts about him
- Agan would like to have a look at him (and others) since she's unsure, likes Lommy's point against him
- Nog mentions him in a few analysis-posts but still no own opinion of him Ok I understand his opinion of Glirdy is not exactly related but this starts to look too non-committal...
- Brinn votes him, thinks his role could go either way but give us a lot of info, therefore the vote
- Shasta discusses him indirectly
- Skip wants to have a look at the emergence of suspicion against him
- Skip belittles his own earlier suspicion against G and thinks others don't have particularly good points against him, has no idea bout his role except he's not his prime suspect anyway
- Legate wishy-washes more about him, wonders if voting him would make sense, doesn't reach a conclusion Darling, you could start a laundry service.
- Skip says it's mathematically more probable he's innocent
- Legate points out the flaw in aforementioned point
- Shasta discusses him in relation to Greenie
- Skip thinks only one out of a list of five including G can be guilty
- Agan flip-flops on him, sort of concludes he's not suspicious
- Agan and Skip discuss him indirectly
- Nog again speculates about others' relations with him but doesn't pronounce an opinion of his own about him
- Zil discusses him indirectly
- more indirect discussion of Glirdy from Nog's part (he doesn't approve of Greenie's take on her)
- Skip has little liking for possible wagon against him
- Lommy is pretty sure she'll vote him, he's her top suspect, discusses him and Nerwen
- Lommy doesn't want to give Glirdy a chance to defend himself and votes him haha that sounds quite nasty! Also, is confident but flip-flops.
- Skip wants to know his role thanks to "all the hype"
- Shasta wishy-washes on the wagon against him, has no own opinion
- Lommy hopes that he or (another) wolf is lynched
- Nienna thinks him most suspicious of all but would like to hear his defense but would like to lynch him
- Zil's not enthused about lynching him although thinks knowing his role'd be useful
- Nog votes him, says he's been thinking it to and frobut is not too happy about the vote but thinks he's more likely a wolf than many others Interesting turn of events...
- Ni says he looks worse than Mira (the other absentee)
- Zil reminds people he's not around to defend himself but thinks it quite clear he will get lynched
- Zil votes him Again, very interesting turn of events, although self-defense played a part here, too...
- Nerwen wonders about Skip's constant defenses of him
- Ni votes him, hopes there'll be info
- Nerwen votes him


And that's it! Done! Like with sally, conclusions coming later. Basically means I check the things I (probably) xed with and then have a look at this post and the Sally one and make some conclusions.


edit: xed with all and gah, those are too long posts, I'll make my conclusions first and then read and comment those...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Would you explain to me why the wolves would wish to kill Lottie? She is not the cursed, as our moddess herself specifically told us if I recall it right. Why would they waste their kill on Lottie?

Two words. Known. Innocent.

I have elaborated on this a bit more in the first post (or maybe second, well one of the early ones, anyway) of toDay, saying that okay, maybe this or that, maybe the matter isn't so pressing for them yet, but still... why not to get rid of the known innocent while they can? Eventually, it will become a problem for them, one person who is "clean", and by that time they might not have the option to choose anymore whether to kill her at Night or not - there might be many, many other more pressing problems and they would not be sure at which Night the Ranger is protecting her or not etc.

EDIT: x-ed since the quoted Nog

[skip spence]

Lommy has a good point about the wolves not killing Greenie unless she had given them a reason to worry when they could've gone after Lottie instead, I think.

Yes, killing Greenie was a surprising decision (and I'll miss having her around). But what possible reason could the wolves have to believe she was the seer? From what I've gathered she was always perfectly ambiguous and vague about everyone, and tried her best to stay out of trouble. I was starting to suspect her as a wolf for these reasons. Could the wolves have felt that this was a reason to suspect her being the Seer, with the knowledge that she wasn't a wolf?

And why not Lottie? Two reasons I can think of. Maybe they think the ranger will protect her every other night and that the risk of missing out on a kill is too great. Or that the people Lottie now suspects are innocent, and that she's likely to cause as much bloodshed among the villagers as she already has among the wolves. I'm not so sure who's on top of Lottie's suspect list any longer though.

Morsul's odd though, wouldn't you say? Can't give this too much time but I will look into some of his statements now. There seems to be a pattern to his seemingly erratic behaviour, one that tempts me to cry... what is the word again ... oh yes wolf.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Would Mr. Cat like to explain to me why the wolves would not want to kill a known innocent?

I'm not claiming the wolves would love to have a known innocent around, but I think it's rather safe to assume that as they lost two wolves and a cobbler in three Days they'd rather wish for reinforcements rather sooner than later.

Originally Posted by Agan

However I don't think Greenie suspected Nog heavily enough for the wolves to think they could frame Nog by killing her, and therefore your second option seems to me more likely.

You seem to have also a bad memory on top of lazy thinking habits...

Originally Posted by me

Okay. One scenario: like someone said already, maybe they were taking even more heat than we know? Making a totally odd kill would keep us going around the subject for quite a while - and thus we might let our main suspicions from yesterDay to recede?

What I think now is the following. The wolves wished to make a puzzling kill so as to keep us occupied with it (success indeed). That means at least one of them was in considerable trouble already yesterDay and they wished to change the scope of discussion once and for all. Greenie happening to be the seer was a bonus they couldn't have anticipated - but they would love to turn it into their advantage toDay with getting me lynched. *coughLommycough*


(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm not claiming the wolves would love to have a known innocent around, but I think it's rather safe to assume that as they lost two wolves and a cobbler in three Days they'd rather wish for reinforcements rather sooner than later.

Nog honestly. Yeah of course they want to find the cursed, but I wouldn't say it's safe to assume she's their primary target. They have no idea who's an ordo and who's not, and even if they knew every ordo the odds of finding the cursed wouldn't be too good.
And I think it's extremely unnerving you say so.

That means at least one of them was in considerable trouble already yesterDay and they wished to change the scope of discussion once and for all.

So if you're innocent, maybe you'd like to go and find the wolf who was in considerable trouble instead of just defending yourself?

++Nogrod

Should be worth a try.

[Thinlómien]

(leaving myself out, of course)

Would be Sally's fellow
Nog - last minute suspicions against her
Brinn - same as Nog
Skip - nice relations, he sort of helps her out

Could be Sally's fellow
Legate - quite torn here, he looks sinister towards her but she doesn't towards him
Winty
Nerwen
Mira
Agan
Zil

Not Sally's fellow
Morsul - see her following Shasta's suspicion on Morsul
Shasta - same as Morsul
Nienna - late Day2 very unincriminating

Would be Glirdy's fellow
Agan - can't really put my finger on it, but there's something mighty fishy going on between them
Shasta - back and forths about him that way
Legate - same as Shasta
Nog - avoids having an opinion about him

Could be Glirdy's fellow
Skip - I'm puzzled about his really weird behaviour towards him
Zil - heavy suspicion on Day2 but slip-floppiness on Day3... weird?
Brinn - major back and forthing about Glirdy but she voted him without saying she suspects him. If she was a wolf, why wouldn't she try to look better by suspecting him?
Mira
Nerwen
Morsul
Nienna

Not Glirdy's fellow
Winty - I think he is questioning the poor noob too harshly for that


ERGO:

Probable fellows with 2 wolves
Nog

Probable fellows with 1 wolf
Brinn
Skip
Legate
Agan

Middle (probable + improbable or could be + could be)
Shasta
Mira
Nerwen
Zil

Improbable fellows with 1 wolf
Winty
Morsul
Nienna

Improbable fellows with 2 wolves
no one


Next your darling Lommy's up to:
1) replying all the old and new cross-posts
2) making a list


edit: xed with all again

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

What's the point of saying that? Was it a nightly plan or not, it didn't work, and the whole comment is sort of creepy.

I was impressed by the daring nature of it. Simple as that.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I really don't like Inzil's analysis of Green's posts. It seems he's just looking for people she suspected and downplaying the fact that she called some people innocent.

I would think that all Greenie's words could be read, without me having to explain everything. I was only concentrating on who she suspected, seeing as she was the Seer, and had been killed and all.

Originally Posted by Aganzir

To me Inzil's death would have revealed more than Glirdan's, given that I had been concentrating on him quite a lot and on Glirdy not at all. I'm not sorry it was Glirdy who died but I'd still like to lynch Inzil.

Shame you didn't quite want to lynch enough me just yet, since you voted for Nog. There's always toMorrow, no doubt.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

There are, from my point of view, basically two options. Either the kill was done to frame Nogrod and drive us away from the current (resp. yesterDay's) main suspects, which for me would mean e.g. Inzil especially, or the kill was done to kill a Seer, which would mean most likely a Wolfgrod. I can't see much of any other possibility behind these two and thus will be probably voting according to it toDay.

The other option is the one Nog mentioned, that the wolves were looking for the Cursed, and left Lottie alone because she wasn't it. The main mark against that though, is that it's too much of a coincidence that they just happened to take out the Seer in that scenario.

Originally Posted by skip spence

And why not Lottie? Two reasons I can think of. Maybe they think the ranger will protect her every other night and that the risk of missing out on a kill is too great. Or that the people Lottie now suspects are innocent, and that she's likely to cause as much bloodshed among the villagers as she already has among the wolves. I'm not so sure who's on top of Lottie's suspect list any longer though.

Either of those are possible too. The odds really are against Lottie having both remaining wolves in her sights.

Nog is not mounting the aggressive counter-attack that I've come to expect when he's innocent and stands accused.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Agan

I've won a game as a wolf because the seer trusted the cobbler whom she had seen as innocent.

For the last time: I DIDN'T TRUST HIM! I only wasn't too concerned about him, which was obviously a mistake.

Originally Posted by Legate

So much for one-liners

<3

Originally Posted by Nogrod

According to your scenario she had dreamt of at least one wolf (me) - and if we contiune with that scenario probably also of another (Glirdan) because she put us both into the same category of "bad". If I was a wolf and she had dreamt of me but not Glirdy, why would she mess with our heads by claiming me and Glirdy belonging to the same group? So if she had two wolves bagged why didn't she come forwards with it? I feel you're really trying to force your point now and it doesn't look too good.

Whos' trying to force a point here? It doesn't make any sense to try to discredit my point by saying that given that I'm the one who tried to analyse the way Greenie phrased her trust in people in one list post. I think her phrasing of you and Glirdy was different enough to make a difference, and besides, if she really suspected Glirdy (by logic or gut feeling) and you (because of a dream) why not put you both in the same categry? Or should she have put Glirdy under "suspicious" and you under "dreamt wolf"? Come on, she was the seer and she was trying to hide from you wolves...

Originally Posted by Nog

But I do recommend you fight over it and then when I'm dead you draw your conclusions based on what people thought of my lynching.

Sounds good.

Nog, how come wolves only look for the cursed? Is that inside information? (Ok, I see you answered that. It's a fair point, but since I didn't think of it, I'm - wise or not - not inclined to think an innocent would've come up with it... Not that this is a good point against Nog, just saying.)

Off to do a list, then vote. Want to be in bed in 45 minutes.


edit: xed with Zil

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Originally Posted by Aganzir

So if you're innocent, maybe you'd like to go and find the wolf who was in considerable trouble instead of just defending yourself?

[highlight ]++Nogrod[ /highlight]

Should be worth a try.

Maybe I would, but why? If you refuse to think, why should I help you? You don't seem to pay attention to what I say so why bother? I could sleep tonight as well if nothing I say makes any difference.

And where's your effort Agan? Oh, the moral highground is such a slippery thing... Why don't you try and go find the wolves? Are you so happy with the presumed outcome that you can just lay back and enjoy?


Heh, I was actually going through the posting toDay to make some remarks on them, So maybe I'll finish with it anyway and not make my threat of resigning quite that real.

Originally Posted by Zil

Nog is not mounting the aggressive counter-attack that I've come to expect when he's innocent and stands accused.

You should see my aggressive counter-attack when I'm a wolf and stand accused...

Some people here might tell you about it.


(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[skip spence]

Could Morsul's early votes mean something? I've noticed that the people catching the most flack so far are the people who've been active right up until the deadline and voted late. The Europeans have stayed out of most people's suspicions, maybe in part because of this? We of course have good reasons to vote rather early as the DL is in the middle of the night, but for Morsul not so.

Maybe he figures that by being his incoherent self and voting early, sometimes for his fellow wolves, he might just soldier on as a minor but harmless disturbance?

And what to make of all this. First he proclaims to have all the time in the world:

Originally Posted by Morsul

I'm off tomorrow I can stay on all night yay!

Then, shortly after, he's suddenly run out of time:

Painting my kitchen today so no time. ++Shasta

That doesn't seem like a thing that would prevent someone from checking up on the thread, him being in his own flat and all.

And then there's this quote that I've already brought up:

Lastly I voted first for both wolves... If I knew they would get the most votes for the day I'd be A) psychic and B) insane for offering them up for slaughter.

This is clearly written from the perspective of a wolf, without stating that it is a hypothetical situation. If I were a wolf I'd be crazy for offering them up for a slaughter would be a fair argument. Maybe it was just an honest mistake, or perhaps a fatal slip of the tongue?

Insane for offering them up for the slaugher, eh? Yes, that may well be the case. A working theory of mine is that Shasta and Morsul are the remaining wolves. But if they are that seems like too bold a plan, especially if it's been made before hand. Hm...

Gotta vote soon.

[Thinlómien]

Innocent
Lottie

Slightly innocent
Skip - I don't like his interactions with the wolves very much, but he seems like a rather likely seer dream.
Shasta - very contradictory evidence, but if I had to guess, I'd call him innocent. Will change opinion quite radically if we lynch Nogrod and he turns out to be innocent.
Nienna - something in her posts rubs me slightly the wrong way, but I'm currently thinking it's the same "something" that always makes me suspicious of her. Unlikely fellows with Sally, or then very evil and backstabbing.

Middle
Brinn - having real hard time with her.
Morsul - too right about stuff to really seem innocent, but then again, I have hard time imagining him and Sally in cahoots.
Legate - used to think him innocent but starting to be very lost with him now.
Agan - see above (only substitute "he" with "she" ).
Mira - needs to post more, seriously. Her posts look slightly more bad than good, but then again she looks a tiny bit like an innocent seer dream.
Winty - quite frankly, no idea. Suspicion of more or less only wolves is slightly disturbing, but might just be bandwagoning. Not probable fellows Glirdy, if I read the signs right. Tough call.

Slightly suspicious
Nerwen - in theory, she seems very innocent. In practice, she feels creepily wolvish. Keeping an eye on her... (She sort of too good to be true.)
Zil - I keep changing my opinion on him all the time. However, the evidence doesn't really flatter him. *sigh* All too aware of him being an "easy suspect".

Suspicious
Nogrod - fishy interactions with the known wolves, especially Glirdy. Also very probable seer dream.


++Nogrod

As you can see, even if I didn't suspect him so much, there wouldn't be much choice for me because I'm so unsure about everybody. ToMorrow (provided that I'm alive) I will focus on people I haven't paid enough attention before.


edit: xed with Nog and Skip
edit2: fixed bolding, decided to go to sleep. Bye!

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, I must say that the idea of the Wolves looking for the Cursed makes sense in itself, it's what they would like probably the most right now, but the point is, to use skip's odds from yesterDay, that there is really little chance for them to get one, something like 1:12 or how many. Pretty bad, I think. It would be impossible for the Wolves to just keep killing a person after a person with the intention to find the Cursed, it's as much of a chance that they stumble upon a Hunter who might just as well kill one of them, or an Unicorn, for that matter. The problem is that there is not even a clue about somebody being a Cursed, because the person itself does not know that! So it's just that the WWs may just go about their own business and hope that somewhere along the way they stumble upon the Cursed.

So I don't know what to make of it, Nogrod just joined the list of people who are possibly suspicious and don't make sense at the same time. Really, is that something catchy or what?

Okay, maybe only one possible explanation now occured to me - and that's probably what he meant, now thinking of it - that the WWs would rather kill a person they know is NOT a Gifted in hope that it'll be a Cursed. But, well, that has the same problem as the above (only with the odds being 1:11 instead of 1:12) AND on top of that it would leave a live Seer with all the problems I have remarked in my last post. Ridiculous. All of this does not say anything about Nogrod's innocence or guilt to me, it just tells me that he is thinking in a rather megalomanic way. Unless he is a Wolf and is annoyed to be suspected on wrong grounds, as it should be obvious to us in his opinion that he should have been looking for Cursed and leave Greenie alive. And all of that, of course, considering that the Wolves knew who Greenie is. That's so random that I am actually beginning to consider whether what Aganzir said about Nogrod possibly slipping his Wolf thoughts might not be true after all.

EDIT: x-ed since Lommy's 4/3

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

It's kind of frustrating that you guys don't seem to get the point I'm trying to make time and again...

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Come on, she was the seer and she was trying to hide from you wolves...

Okay. Going on with this scenario of yours that I was a wolf... You're contradicting yourself and good sense when you try to maintain that she was at the same time the most careful - not leaving any hints on whom she had dreamt of to ensure no one could think her the seer - and at the same time she would have revealed her wolf-dream as her top suspicion and plain ignoring the possibility the wolves might get her the next Night for it...

If I was a wolf, I wouldn't call her posting on me yesterDay "trying to hide from the wolves". But it would be "not helping the innocents at all" as she didn't then leave any known innocent and took the risk of losing last Night's dream by exposing herself to the wolves. So she exposed herself to the wolves but told nothing to the innocents?

That doesn't make sense Lommy. C'mon. Greenie is smarter than that.

I just get this funny feeling you and Agan are pushing this a bit too eagerly...

Okay, if you don't understand what I'm trying to say, well then don't. We can afford a mislynch as is said many times.

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

EDIT: X'd with Lommy and Legate

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Maybe I would, but why? If you refuse to think, why should I help you? You don't seem to pay attention to what I say so why bother? I could sleep tonight as well if nothing I say makes any difference.

And where's your effort Agan? Oh, the moral highground is such a slippery thing... Why don't you try and go find the wolves? Are you so happy with the presumed outcome that you can just lay back and enjoy?

Now, if you are innocent, Nog, you would not resign and try to find some suspect. You are not doing anything. And accusing Agan does not make sense here, because even though you are right that she does not make her own effort, she has a case - unlike you.

Originally Posted by skip spence

Could Morsul's early votes mean something? I've noticed that the people catching the most flack so far are the people who've been active right up until the deadline and voted late. The Europeans have stayed out of most people's suspicions, maybe in part because of this? We of course have good reasons to vote rather early as the DL is in the middle of the night, but for Morsul not so.

Maybe he figures that by being his incoherent self and voting early, sometimes for his fellow wolves, he might just soldier on as a minor but harmless disturbance?
(...)
And then there's this quote that I've already brought up:

This is clearly written from the perspective of a wolf, without stating that it is a hypothetical situation. If I were a wolf I'd be crazy for offering them up for a slaughter would be a fair argument. Maybe it was just an honest mistake, or perhaps a fatal slip of the tongue?

Insane for offering them up for the slaugher, eh? Yes, that may well be the case. A working theory of mine is that Shasta and Morsul are the remaining wolves. But if they are that seems like too bold a plan, especially if it's been made before hand. Hm...

I don't know about Shasta, but at least Morsul this far does not seem suspicious to me. He has been acting more or less like his innocent self, and the possible slip of all things is not very convincing to me either (I mean, I can see Morsul making a mistake like that without it being a slip).

It is interesting nevertheless, you sort of made me now imagine the interesting idea of Morsul fooling us (or me) all the time, because he really seemed "normal" to me. Anyway, it's good to see skip sort of working independantly, making me think even better of him. (If he's a Wolf, hats off (to Roy Harper).)

EDIT: x-ed with Nog

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. Going on with this scenario of yours that I was a wolf... You're contradicting yourself and good sense when you try to maintain that she was at the same time the most careful - not leaving any hints on whom she had dreamt of to ensure no one could think her the seer - and at the same time she would have revealed her wolf-dream as her top suspicion and plain ignoring the possibility the wolves might get her the next Night for it...

If I was a wolf, I wouldn't call her posting on me yesterDay "trying to hide from the wolves". But it would be "not helping the innocents at all" as she didn't then leave any known innocent and took the risk of losing last Night's dream by exposing herself to the wolves. So she exposed herself to the wolves but told nothing to the innocents?

This makes sense in a way, however, of course one must ask the fundamental question once again, why did the Wolves do what they did if it wasn't so. Back to my thoughts early in the Day, the options do not seem to be too many. In any case, if Nogrod is lynched and he turns out to be innocent, I will be turning back to the situation how it was before toDay, i.e. looking at those who were suspected back then. As if we rule out the possibility of the Wolves knowing Greenie was the Seer, I really cannot imagine other reasons for killing her than creating the confusion, framing Nogrod and leading us away from the trail.

Anyway, my main dilemma toDay is simply whether to join lynching Nogrod - and therefore getting part of the answers to the above - or to believe in the other of the possibilities and lynch one of the other suspects, in my case Inzil. However as I am not sure how much the other makes sense right now and considering that I have been slightly unsure about Inzil's guilt for a few reasons (see earlier toDay), it might as well be Nogrod. Even though I am wondering if his defense is not that of a genuine innocent.

[Nogrod]

(~~~) *grin appearing*

Originally Posted by Legate

Now, if you are innocent, Nog, you would not resign and try to find some suspect. You are not doing anything.

I'm doing all the time... sorry about the rhetorics, but the way Agan and Lommy seem to have deaf ears to anything I say kind of discourages me to sneak hours from my sleeping time. I mean if no one listens why bother?

But anyway. here's something to begin with...


Some thoughts along this Day (a work in progress - has been that for an hour or so)


I'm honestly quite baffled with this: a hilarious 10-year old or an inexperienced wolf trying to look good... or just Morsul?

Originally Posted by Morsul

I was shocked by the pick if I do say so myself not to toot my own horn I was sure I was going to be the victem to days in a row with the right vote... That NEVER happens for me(I'm excited) keep it alive folks!

Okay, I see I'm not the only one.

Originally Posted by Loslote

One more thing I just realized with Morsul:

He keeps proclaiming that he's successfully voted for two wolves in two consecutive Days. Okay. That's lovely.

Indeed. And he has done that relatively early as well, if my memory serves me right (not going to go back and find them). So that could be something pre-planned indeed. Or "just Morsul". The trouble is, can we afford not to check him?


On the issue of interpreting Greenie's dreams.

Someone - Lommy at least (with reservations) and I feel there was someone else as well - came over with an idea that Greenie might have dreamt of Agan and found her innocent? Well let's look at her actual posting on Agan (thank's for the quotes Lottie). This was actually the thing that made me question the knowledge we could gain from such a cryptic seer as Greenie was in the first place (the thing Lommy thought incriminated me... well you can pass your verdict with these quotes).

Originally Posted by Greenie D1

Agan is lovely and provides a lot of substance (I'd raise my hat if I had one, unfortunately I only wear a helmet), I don't suspect her - but then, I always suspect her when she's innocent, so maybe she's a wolf now. Gah, I'm flip-flopping. Family vice. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Greenie D2

Agan – Seems genuine and makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying she's innocent - I know how capable she is of fooling me - but I won't be voting her without a good reason.

Originally Posted by Greenie D3

At least as far as my werewolf-experience goes, few wolves actually put all their fellows in the "no opinion" -category - or any same category, for that matter. A wolf is almost always a tad paranoid, and wold prefer to avoid cramming all his fellows under the same heading just so as not to make all their names appear together. Besides, a bit of wolf-on-wolf suspicion - or even open wolf-on-wolf fraternizing - is actually safer for a wolf than just carefully not saying anything about one's fellows. And, in addition to that, I've never seen an Aganwolf not pulling off any kind of wolf-on-wolf thing.

Originally Posted by Greenie D3

Aganzir
A sensible point, could well have been by an innocent Agan, but the phrasing of the underlined part struck me as slightly fishy – it's too careful (maybe, a bit), not much like Agan's usual provocative style.


This, in turn, looks okay.

Could well be a wolf assuring that the death of a fellow would be okay while not enforcing the suspicion on her.

This strikes me as genuine innocent reasoning, though. Agan is driving me mad.

Does this seem to anyone as a seer talking of an innocent - and leaving the hints for the posterity so that they would not lynch an innocent if she happens to die?

Heh, going forwards the thread I find this:

Originally Posted by Shasta

I think Agan was dreamed, but I don't think it was until Day 2.

Now why Shasta? You have the quotes here. Let's hear your argument behind you thinking Agan innocent? I might actually think you and Agan are in cahoots and you just rushed to try and confirm something someone else had suggested. But really. That was not an honest comment in any way. Looking at the facts (the quotes above) and what you say just don't fit.

Okay, a break now...

Originally Posted by Legate

hats off (to Roy Harper)

(~~~) *grin vanishing*

[skip spence]

Nogrod is starting to worry me too but I've not really kept up to date with the reading and just why he's suspected. Because Greenie the Seer's vote for him, is it not? It would be remarkable if we (though I can't claim any credit) could lynch a wolf three consecutive nights. Don't know if Nogrod is one but things are beginning to bad for him methinks. How do you behead a big grin anyway? Let's ask the The Queen Of Hearts shall we?

But I will not be the one to try to fit the noose around his neck or lack of. The most honest option for me is Shasta, who I've sort of suspected since early on. I could go for Morsul too but don't see that happening now.

++Shasta

*is off to sleep*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Alright. I'm here for a few minutes, but I've... tarts to steal (read: final dress rehearsal tonight) so I won't be here at deadline.

Right now my vote will probably be for Nogrod. I've seen Nog come down hard on the "frustrated innocent" defense (and been on the receiving end of such ) to buy it from him this time. Plus, he hasn't (at least I haven't seen it... if you have, correct me, Nog) responded at all to the point I made earlier in the day against him, about his vote for Glirdan that contradicted his previous stance on "easy lynches".

Now, Legate -

Originally Posted by Legate

Morsul this far does not seem suspicious to me. He has been acting more or less like his innocent self, and the possible slip of all things is not very convincing to me either (I mean, I can see Morsul making a mistake like that without it being a slip).

It is interesting nevertheless, you sort of made me now imagine the interesting idea of Morsul fooling us (or me) all the time, because he really seemed "normal" to me.

I don't like this post much. Especially since I'm suspicious of Morsul (and agree totally with Skip, here)

Originally Posted by Skip

Maybe he figures that by being his incoherent self and voting early, sometimes for his fellow wolves, he might just soldier on as a minor but harmless disturbance?

I could see Morsul doing just that on the basis of "it's worked before" (which he's already admitted to basing his actions on anyway ), and your post looks like you're dismissing suspicion of Morsul off-hand.

My only problem is that Nog is a likely wolf, so you can't be wolves together.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Yes, Nog, I can do that with three of the same quotes you just used. Let me just change the bolding around, shall I?

Originally Posted by Greenie

Agan is lovely and provides a lot of substance (I'd raise my hat if I had one, unfortunately I only wear a helmet), I don't suspect her - but then, I always suspect her when she's innocent, so maybe she's a wolf now. Gah, I'm flip-flopping. Family vice. Sorry.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Agan – Seems genuine and makes a lot of sense. I'm not saying she's innocent - I know how capable she is of fooling me - but I won't be voting her without a good reason.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Aganzir
A sensible point, could well have been by an innocent Agan, but the phrasing of the underlined part struck me as slightly fishy – it's too careful (maybe, a bit), not much like Agan's usual provocative style.


This, in turn, looks okay.

Could well be a wolf assuring that the death of a fellow would be okay while not enforcing the suspicion on her.

This strikes me as genuine innocent reasoning, though. Agan is driving me mad.

I'm not saying you're obviously, insanely wrong, Nogrod, but calling my remark dishonest is pushing it a bit much, don't you think?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm doing all the time... sorry about the rhetorics, but the way Agan and Lommy seem to have deaf ears to anything I say kind of discourages me to sneak hours from my sleeping time. I mean if no one listens why bother?

Well but that makes two people out of a dozen.

Good point about Agan, though, I never felt the dreams listed by Lommy made that much sense - or not in the way she posted them, anyway, it played little role. Personally I think one of them was skip, maybe even the first one, and then perhaps even somebody dead, and then depending... a Wolf Nogrod, or something totally different. Well, I sort of spoke about this in the beginning of the Day. It certainly would help a lot to have Greenie revived, but well, we have to do without that at least for now.

And now, to something completely different.

A list. (For those who know Bob, that was supposed to be said in his voice.)

SUSPECTING

Nogrod - mostly this possibility of Greenie kill...
Inzil - see a long time ago, in a Galaxy...

CURIOUS ABOUT

Mira - no idea at all
Shasta - something similar, a bit worried by some points raised against him, but I haven't really made any of my own observations with definite focus on him.

INNOCENTISH WITH THE PARANOID FEELING THAT THEY MIGHT BE WOLVES FOOLING ME (in the order from the topmost - the most paranoid about - to the lowest, the least paranoid about)
Aganzir - that paranoia does not need to be explained, I believe. Also, she is just sort of faring too good. Eurgh.
Nerwen - well... she looks okay, but it's just similar case as Agan, you can't really know with her
Morsul - see my post above
skip - see also my post above
Lommy - is in this cathegory only because her crusade against Nogrod is a bit too much of a crusade, on the other hand, a Wolf would not be so zealous, in my opinion - that would mean basically signing one's own death penalty. Actually, that might almost move her into the next cathegory. Really. Well but then, I could do the same also for Morsul and Skip, as I am really not *that* paranoid about them. Well, and maybe Nerwen. Okay, that leaves Agan. Well, what a surprise Nah, it's not just about paranoia, it's just sort of that I am not THAT inclined to consider them as "clean". But maybe really I should move Lommy down there. Okay, enough of this rant

INNOCENTISH WITHOUT AS MUCH OF A PARANOID FEELING
Wintywinty - looks a lot better now, though not posting much
Brinniel - speaks lots of sense lately
Nienna - generally think innocent, early comments about the WWs

INNOCENT
Loslote

In general, if I had to bet, I would say - or hope - that both of the Wolves are among the four topmost.

EDIT: x-ed with two Shastas

[wilwarin538]

Votes so far:

Morsul -> Shasta
Agan -> Nogrod
Lommy -> Nogrod (2)
Skip -> Shasta (2)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Right now my vote will probably be for Nogrod. I've seen Nog come down hard on the "frustrated innocent" defense (and been on the receiving end of such ) to buy it from him this time. Plus, he hasn't (at least I haven't seen it... if you have, correct me, Nog) responded at all to the point I made earlier in the day against him, about his vote for Glirdan that contradicted his previous stance on "easy lynches".

Okay, if Nog turns out innocent, I will also remember this, Shastaggoning for Nogrod?

Anyway, as for voting, I am not feeling as comfortable as earlier. Of course after two Wolves being lynched it is not any big deal yet. But nevertheless, I think I will be probably voting Nogrod. It also makes sort of the most sense. Even though I would assume him to put up a bit more fight as a Wolf. Argh.

Now I was basically just sitting here and thinking for a few minutes. Okay, let me see if a sudden stroke of brilliance shines on me or if I crossposted with somebody clever, then I vote and go to sleep.