Werewolf LIII: The Republic

[Brinniel]

Time to vote:

++Kath for rep

Originally Posted by Ilya

Oh, and what does the term x'ed mean? Just curious.

It means cross-posting with someone.

[Boromir88]

starting with why were you making some of those really shallow cases... like the one you stubbornly re-made even if I had answered it already?~Nogrod

You mean your answer to Gwath's contradictory vote? I stubbornly re-made it because you're answer to it was hogwash.

You said you didn't vote for Gwath because of his contradiction when voting for you. But in your post yesterday (labelling your reasons) you said his contradiction when voting for you as a rep was clear, and taking the devil's advocate approach it could look evil. Long story short, I'm saying you're answer doesn't match up with your reasons yesterday, and that is why I have harped on it.

(Oh and I guess I should clear up "balogna" see that is actually a kind of meat for sandwhiches/subs, I meant "baloney" as I didn't buy it, it didn't match up...etc. They are pronounced the same and I just got them confused. My bad...and I also realized that the deli meat is spelled "bologna" anyway. )

This is strangely parroting Lommy and Agan from yesterday.

Edit: crossed with Brinn

[the phantom]

Votes:
Lommy for Ner
Ner for Lommy
Agan for Boro
morm for Agan
KA for Lommy (2)
Green for morm
Eonwe for Lommy (3)
Rune for morm (2)
Kath for Boro (2)
Shasta for Ner (2)
Nog for Boro (3)
Ilya for Rune
Brin for Kath

Reps:
Lommy- 3 votes
Boro - 3 votes
morm- 2 votes
Ner - 2 votes

[Boromir88]

Who does that leave?

Shasta, sally, Gwath, the phantom, Gil and myself?

What do you think tp? You said you'd like to see Greenie, Kath, Agan, or Rune in there. Are you thinking about sticking with that? I've said I would like to see Greenie, Agan, or Rune (as far as Kath, I honestly don't know).

There's no reason to cross-vote, unless you want to put someone else with 3 votes to insure a tie won't happen?

Edit: oops scratch Shasta from above

[the phantom]

Let's see...

Agan, Kath, and Rune already have a vote, so I suppose it would make sense for me to vote for one of them.

As far as the tie scenario, we don't have to worry about that during this stage. It's up to the Reps not to allow a tie.

[Boromir88]

I highly doubt we're going to see sally, Gil, or Gwath before the deadline; I don't think it's a big issue.

I will say I think since they have refrained to vote, they have officially revoked all rights to complain about the reps.

++Aganzir for rep

I don't trust him at all at this moment but I want to check his cards whatever it leads to.~Nogrod

Keep it up and I'll vote for you first and give Fea the filibuster she's been oh so dying to have.

Now I'm going to bed.

[the phantom]

I'm leaning towards Kath. She said she'll be around the second half, and she has not yet been a Rep.

I have less of an idea about where she stands, so I'd feel safer going with Agan (as far as her lynching someone I'd like lynched), but if you're leaning towards making Agan a Rep already yourself then I'd like to give Kath a shot and see what she does. At the least I do feel that she is innocent.

EDIT: x-post Boro

[the phantom]

++Kath for Rep

Which means....

Votes:
Lommy for Ner
Ner for Lommy
Agan for Boro
morm for Agan
KA for Lommy (2)
Green for morm
Eonwe for Lommy (3)
Rune for morm (2)
Kath for Boro (2)
Shasta for Ner (2)
Nog for Boro (3)
Ilya for Rune
Brin for Kath
Boro for Agan (2)
tp for Kath (2)

Reps:
Lommy- 3 votes
Boro - 3 votes
morm- 2 votes
Ner - 2 votes
Agan- 2 votes
Kath- 2 votes

[the phantom]

So, the no-voters are Gwath, Gil, and Sally.

Does anyone know anything about their whereabouts?

[the phantom]

Well, according to the BD clock, it's final.

I'm off to do RL things for a bit, and then bed. I'll be around when I can tomorrow afternoon, I'll miss a few hours, and then I'll be back again an hour or so before the deadline.

[Nerwen]

Well, here I am.

I am honoured by the trust my (two) constituents have placed in me.

I give my word that during my time in office, I shall endeavour to be beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!

...Oh, and I'll see if I can't manage to lynch a wolf while I'm about it.

Thank you.

[Gwathagor]

Well, I missed the deadline. I could have posted this afternoon, but I decided to go see a movie instead. I apologize.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

There's a reason I made that comment about Gil. If you're innocent, then you'd do well to just agree with it and move on.

Originally Posted by phantom

I'm just letting him know that I have a good reason for saying it and that it is meant to benefit the innocent, therefore if he is innocent he should let it stand.

First of all, I don't like that "If you are innocent, you'll do as I say and be content with my better judgement". To me, meekly following phantom's ideas without questioning them first seems more like the behaviour of a wolf than of an innocent. Phantom's phrasing looks like blackmailing of sorts - like "If you don't agree with me, I will think you are a wolf." As for me, I don't see that mysterious reason he is talking about at all and would like to remind mr. phantom that even if you yourself know you are innocent, we others don't and have no reason to trust you. Now I don't think you are a wolf nor do I suspect Gil, but if I suspected either of you that argument wouldn't sway my opinion.

Originally Posted by Boro

And knowing that tp will now truly be ok as an advisor, I feel fine leaving him out of a seat this time through.

Excuse me, Boro - though I don't suspect phantom either, I honestly don't know how come you are so convinced about his innocence. You treat him like a known innocent, and I'd love to know why.

Originally Posted by Boro

Who does that leave?

Shasta, sally, Gwath, the phantom, Gil and myself?

What do you think tp?

If we are talking about the "experienced veterans" click, this is certainly a good example. Why ask only phantom, why not ask the other four as well? It looks as if only phantom's opinion was worth considering. Sorry, I just tend not to like this kind of phrasing.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

She gives you a reason to uspect her yet she's innocent?

As for the second, in WW people usually use slip to mean a Freudian Slip, so that confused me a bit. Do you just mean her confusion?

Like you said later, I mentioned this quote before; and like I believe I said in that post, I guess that was a pure typo. We'll see what Lommy says when she gets back, though.

Other than that, Rune brings good points and seems genuine, I have a good feeling about him now that I've read more of his posts. I didn't understand Boro's bologna-thing, but I trust it was nothing too important.

Is anyone else around? If yes, I'll hang around to discuss with that someone. If not, I'll go writing an essay on The Picture of Dorian Gray.

[A Little Green]

Argh, honestly writing an essay doesn't seem too appealing at the moment, despite the fact that there seems to be no one else around. I'll just blabber by myself for a while before starting to work..

The reps:
Lommy (3)
Boro (3)
morm (2)
Nerwen (2)
Agan (2)
Kath (2)

I'm quite content with our reps, actually. Two old, four new, and no one of them screams "wolf!" to me. Both of the two I considered voting (morm and Lommy) are through, and I'm quite comfortable with the other four as well. I'm also interested to see how it affects the dynamics to have among them two more powerful reps and four less so.

Hmmm. Eönwë's vote for Lommy came kind of out of the blue, and I'm not sure if I'm comfortable with it. Nog's vote for Boro also seemed a bit weird. If he doesn't trust Boro but wants to see how he uses the power given him, why wasn't it enough for him that Boro was elected a rep? I don't know if I can explain this, but to me it seems very risky to give a person you suspect a third vote just to "check his cards". To elect such a person for rep makes some sense; but giving him a third vote doesn't look quite logical to me.

[Nerwen]

Hello, Greenie. Are you still around?

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Nog's vote for Boro also seemed a bit weird. If he doesn't trust Boro but wants to see how he uses the power given him, why wasn't it enough for him that Boro was elected a rep? I don't know if I can explain this, but to me it seems very risky to give a person you suspect a third vote just to "check his cards". To elect such a person for rep makes some sense; but giving him a third vote doesn't look quite logical to me.

No, it doesn't. Someone needs to go back and look at the interaction between those two. I'll do it myself if I have time.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

(Oh and I guess I should clear up "balogna" see that is actually a kind of meat for sandwhiches/subs, I meant "baloney" as I didn't buy it, it didn't match up...etc. They are pronounced the same and I just got them confused. My bad...and I also realized that the deli meat is spelled "bologna" anyway. )

"baloney" actually does have its origin in bologna sausage so Mr 88 was actually on the mark - in theory (this is a purely a note on diachronic linguistics not on the accuracy of the term as used in context).

You may have heard that you can eat every part of a pig save the squeak ... originally it was scraps fat and the more obscure parts of the pig that were ground up to make bologna sausages (tofu anyone?) hence the metaphoric use of baloney to mean nonsense. Baloney is, as has been pointed out a phonetic spelling of bologna.

[A Little Green]

Now I'm back again, hello Nerwen (in case you are still around)! I was kind of hoping to see more than one post and one mod-linguistics post. Gah. It seems everyone except me and Nerwen is working or sleeping or just really boring. I'll try to find something useful to do about the game.

[Nerwen]

I'm here... looks like it's just you and me (...and the helpful ghost of Mithalwen...)

I said I was going to look at Nogrod and Boromir 88. I'm listing everything they've said to and about each other in three parts. I'll comment after that.

Day One, Part One (Election Day).

#87.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I concede that as a point in your column, a person voting for a rep will hold different information than a rep casting a vote.

"there will be the fact that in this game the nature of the votes for the representatives will be very different from the actual votes of the representatives themselves~Nogrod"

I disagree. I will pick someone who will represent my voice. Period. That doesn't mean we still can't hold people accountable for their own decisions, whether they said they were only going with their constituents or not. "Popular support" is a lame cop out, the person who best expresses their intentions, and his/her intentions fit best with mine, will be my representative. That's a heck of a lot different than me saying I'm going to pick the first person who will suck up to me, by agreeing with me, because you can't throw bull crap past this pig pen raker.

[rest of the post is a reply to Legate and Lommy.]

#127.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[part of a much longer post]
Lommy I think first used the expression "weak reps" and "strong reps" and it looks like she meant ones with only little voting power or with a huge mandate (eg. the question on how many votes any certain rep has over the lynching) and then someone else (Legate, tp, boro...?) started to talk about the "strong reps" as someone who is trusted or influential or keeps her/his own mind or makes independent decisions etc. Or at least to me it looked like that.

#150.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[first sentence is a reply to Lommy]
When you signed up for this were you really expecting something different?

"Or maybe quietness is not the right factor but the kind of carefulness of some of us around. If we pick them as representatives they will have to take a stand.~Nogrod"

Hmm interesting...you should probably know by now that whether I'm a representative or not I'm going to be doing some heavy lobbying during the 2nd 24-hour period. I would also expect that from Legate, the phantom, and any of the other more vocal players. I can certainly imagine a quiet wolf, who is not a representative, slipping under the radar even more so then they would if we all just had 1 vote. In this way, it would make the less talkative bunch take a stand, and voice their suspects.

However, I don't fully like move for playing carefully and cautiously. Look, I take risks, that's what you're going to get from me, and if I'm a rep, that's what you're going to see. I don't think making somebody a rep will change their style a great deal, if at all. All it would really do is get a concrete vote out of them. But while the voting in the game will be different, I don't think the dynamics are going to change as dramatically as what some of you are making it out to be. The bottom-line is we have lots of well-honed WW people in this village, and it's going to come down to the same situations, do we have some quiet wolves who want to stay out of the spotlight, or some bold one's who like attention, or in all probability both?

I don't like playing it safe, and I've always found people who try to play it safe suspicious. Kath, Brinn, Rune, would make great reps, if they're innocent. The phantom, Legate, Nogrod, also would be great reps if they're innocent. See the point? Just because we have a different voting system now doesn't mean it's going to change someone's ability just by slapping on the "Representative" title.

#165.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[replying to phantom] I disagree, not in the way that it's wrong, but I would like to see that someone is not considered a viable lynch by the other representatives, solely for that fact that said person is a representative. Because, I would bet at least once in this village, wolves would elect one of their mates as a rep.

I think we're un-needlessly complicating the "Who I want as a rep" situation. I don't like the idea of putting a suspected/possible wolf as a rep, for the purpose of getting a concrete vote out of them. Nogrod, if you're not a wolf, I know you won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed, and if you are a wolf, you still won't let the quiet ones slip unnoticed.

What's the reward here? I want someone who I trust is innocent, as well as someone who will represent my voice. That simple. We have an advantage in numbers, and the advantage of not allowing the wolves get control of who gets lynched. Yes, ordo's will make mistakes, but at least I know they mean for the best. Because the fact is, as hard as we could try to not get a wolf in as a rep, it's going to happen, period. That doesn't mean we should help them out and hand them the reigns.

[rest is asking whether the phantom will vote for him.]

#187.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[part of a longer post, where he votes Ilya as rep.]
- Boro being sensible but being not sure about him. But clearly, lynching him on Day1 would be very bad playing indeed.

#196.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[part of a longer post.]
On Nogrod...it struck me odd at first why he wants to advocate the less-loud villagers as representatives, considering he usually goes after them. But, now it looks like an attempt to get more involvement out of the quieter ones. I just don't think it's going to work, because I don't think being a rep will change anyone's style. Also, if Nogrod can not be a representative, it could be an attempt to keep the power out of people who could potentially be dangerous for a wolf-Nogrod. What is Nogrod really up to? Care to answer?

EDIT: fixed quotes.

[Boromir88]

You treat him like a known innocent, and I'd love to know why.~Greenie

If I told you, I'd have to kill you. Ok, maybe not, but if I told you my reason I doubt you'd like it...I'd be getting into all kinds of history - but anyway, I don't see why a village wouldn't want an innocent tp and I won't let my paranoia that tp is an evil wolf manipulating everyone get in the way, at least not yet.

Or, if you want another reason, although probably not so good of a one, if tp was a wolf I would have been dead yesterday with how many seer hints I was dropping off. And even if someone wants to say, well maybe a wolf-tp didn't fall for it, tp would in no way have killed McCaber. None, end of story, either accept it or keep doubting it, doesn't bother me, but I'm not going to waste my time.

If we are talking about the "experienced veterans" click, this is certainly a good example. Why ask only phantom, why not ask the other four as well? Sorry, I just tend not to like this kind of phrasing.

And I don't like your editting job, keep reading, tp and I were the only one's around at the deadline. I was asking about his plan of action with the rep voting.

[Nerwen]

Day One Part Two (Lynching Day!)
#271

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[on Nogrod's vote for Ilya]
as I noted, if a wolf-Nogrod can't become a rep, it could be an attempt to keep power out of other vocal players who could be trouble for him. Also, it could be a way to get the wolves more involved in the voting, and he's simply masking it under the umbrella of "trying to get more info" from people.

Anyway, unless Nogrod, you want to tell me a secret you're hiding, you won't be getting my vote. I'll say it again...you won't be getting my vote - I want to stress that point, because I won't pull a Legate 180.

[rest of post is asking me and Shasta where we got the idea of a phantom/Legate/Boro triangle]

#375

Originally Posted by Nogrod

It's getting just too late once again... so I try to do this quickly.

I have underlined those I will not vote for either thinking them innocent-looking enough or to be too valuable to us if innocents as to lynch them on too weak grounds this early...

Aganzir - argues innocentishly
Boromir88 - looks and feels genuine thus far
Brinniel - looks and feels genuine thus far
Diamond18 - her wish to be a rep and the following inattention to the game speak for innocence although the latter doesn't speak well of her gamer-morale...
Eönwë - a hard one for me everytime I play with him: could go either way
Gil-Galad - the enigma who is more often innocent than not - and gets things right more often than has been granted the honour of
Greenie - the sneaky one, my daughter... I never figure her out and thence am afraid everytime
Gwathagor - could be a wolf, could not be...
Ilya - looks and feels genuine thus far
Legate - I'm a bit worries of that possible pre-planned action but not enough to vote him toDay
Lommy - feels innocentish
Kath - she's not suspecting me! there must be something wrong in there... or then not; I'm slightly persuaded to wait and see
McCaber - the ultimate submarine: manages to post without no one having a read on him
mormegil - I do not like his recurring points on tp being very different this time...
Nerwen - looks and feels genuine thus far, although I'd love to see her post more
Rune - the enthusiasm of getting to be a representative speaks on his behalf - and the general feeling I get is more that of an ordo
Sally - very hard nut to crack but maybe more innocentish because of the level of her light-heartedness (she was a bit more focused the last time she was a wolf)
Shasta - could be a wolf, could not be...
The Ka - she's always hard for me to read and I tend to suspect her more than not
the phantom - could be a wolf, could not be...

#423

Originally Posted by Boromir88

[part of longer post; the bit I'm quoting is a reply to Nogrod's suspicion of Gwath.]
Gwath, I really think too much is being made out of his vote for Nogrod as a representative. The whole argument really doesn't make sense, maybe someone can explain it here. But, since Gwath gave the reason of choosing Nogrod, because he believed Nogrod would keep the quiet players on their toes, and since Gwath would fall into this category of "quiet" players so far, that makes him look suspicious? Sorry, but am I reading things correctly?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Oh, and so it is clear, I think I'm pretty much down between Legate and Agan. I will look through the stuff on Eonwe, but as far as Gwath, I don't see any reason to vote for him. Yes, Nogrod, that means I'm not buying your argument.

EDIT: x'd with Boro.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Boro

And I don't like your editting job, keep reading, tp and I were the only one's around at the deadline. I was asking about his plan of action with the rep voting.

Ah, I'm sorry, that was pure mistake, then - I didn't realise it was because the two of you were the only ones around. Silly me

What else? I realised I really have nothing to say. I'll be back with some substance, but now I really must start with the essay. (no, I didn't do that last time I said I would. )

[Nerwen]

Day Two, Part One (Election).

#483.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I'm glad you were able to finish with Nogrod. I've been going through the posts too, but Nogrod is someone I haven't finished yet; he actually reall has been someone I've relatively ignored so far. That's also rather peculiar, Nogrod just hadn't stood out to me as someone important on Day 1. (No offense there Nogrod). Anyway, I decided to take a good look at his last couple posts yesterday, what sticks out to me is his continued pressure on Legate, yet doesn't vote for him, and goes for Gwath instead.

Now before Lommy (or Nogrod for that matter) gets in here and explain all about how Nogrod doesn't like lynching vocal players early on, and ended up going for Gwath, thus he's innocent you see...Going off his posts though it just doesn't make sense.

I agree with tp that in 352, that looks bad, and by Nogrod's admission:

"It seems I have the weightiest reasons to suspect Legate then? But I'm more than reluctant to try him out toDay for the case is more speculative than I'd wish it to be were I to vote someone who could be such an assistance to us."


In 370 he lays out his reasoning against Gwath.

"I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil."

I guestioned this at the end of yesterday, on what was the big deal here, about Gwath's choice for Nogrod? Ok, Gwath says Nog will keep the quiet ones on their toes, Gwath hasn't posted a lot...ya it's contradictory, but talk about a real weak (I would even call bogus) accusation of wolvish-ness.

Then he credits Gwath for questioning the phantom. What is it that teachers like to do now...the compliment sandwhich? This is really good, wow you suck here, but oh this is nice.

In 375 he underlines those who he will not vote for today, one of them is Legate. However, as mentioned above he continues to put pressure on Legate. In 380, right before he says he's got to vote and leave...

"I haven't even read all of your post yet Legate but this cries for spelling it out aloud...

If tp says that if you keep on making that Star Wars stuff he'll be backing you... what do you do? You keep on with it in a striking manner.

That looks suspicious indeed... I need to make the choice in something like fifteen minutes (1.30AM here, waking up call at 6.30) and you didn't make it easier."

Nogrod, pal, this doesn't look good to me. If you said before you would not be voting for Legate, why turn up the heat on him? Why not focus on Gwath or anyone of the 4-5 other people you didn't underline? Also, it's strange that you said the case against Legate was purely speculative, and it made you nervous, but what was the deal about Gwath's representative vote? That looked like more balogna than anything you said about Legate.

And like I said, don't think about feeding me the bull of you not wanting to lynch someone like Legate so early. I bet you wanted the innocent Legate lynched yesterday you see...Although I would also bet you didn't want to get your paws messy.

Before I even post an edit, I'll just say now I've probably cross-posted with tp at least 3 times (Edit: alright I was close - 4 times plus 1 Ilya).

#542.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I managed to peak in during the morning and will have a few comments on something there. Then I'm going to read what has been said after that.

And just fyi I'm sharing the computer with Greenie tonight (RL) so we will be posting in something like turns.

I don't know if you have come to a conclusion about McCaber being killed or not but to me it looks very puzzling indeed. And it makes me wonder. Why not tp? Why not Boro? Why not me? (add any player you think being a major threat to the wolves). There is no ranger so they roam free at Nights. So why not?

So Boro and tp and Lommy / Aganzir... (add your favourite wolf's bane here) are wolves and they let me live to see the other Day (just to attack me... it seems...)? It would sure be in the wolves' interest to get down players who'd threathen them. But they didn't.

And as the suggestion of there being those wolves looks a bit improbable I must think the wolves were actually after a seer. Even if it's Fea's game I'm not just ready to believe that he would have picked tp and Boro as wolves together with Lommy or Agan... or morm / Kath (if it's Fea who picks them)?

[goes on to speculate about whether the wolves thought McCaber was the Seer.

#555.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

[replying to the phantom]
You know it as well as I do that neither you or me, or Boro, or Lommy, or... would vote a contributing player out on Day1 unless there was a severe case to be made against that one.

[accuses phantom of being a wolf]

[replying to Boro's criticism of his attack on Gwath.]
But on the Gwath-suspicion. Sadly you left out the real point - or was it on purpose? I kind of remember you used a sig saying something like "for your safety and my sanity read all the thread"!!!

What I said about Gwath was this (talking from the devil's advocate point of view that is): Let's spell it out then...

Think of Gwath as a wolf (take the devil's advocate point of view).

He knows I'm one of the loudest proponents of lynching the enigmatic people out on the first Days as it will get tougher Day by Day and the number of submarines may decide the whole game in the end.

He realises he's one of the possible targets (I've gotten him lynched pretty early a time or two on Day1 or 2).

So what does he think as he sees many people seem to trust me and I might be on my way to being a representative thus adding to his anguish (he is a wolf in this scenario, mind you)?

He makes a decent try by voting me to be his representative so that I would feel good about it and leave him out from my possible list of "lynching the quiets" because he trusted me! This is the point I voted for him, not that it was a contradicition.

Sorry Boro, but I get the feel that you are as well either disparaging my intelligence seriously or you are just throwing things forwards without actually reading the thread. Or then you're a wolf trying to get something on someone who is an innocent but make a pretty bad performance with it.

And I'm having serious hardship in trying to believe any of the possibilities.


And the last thing. You Boro say I'm giving pressure to Legate while voting Gwath - and that makes me suspicious.

I never vote Legate on Day1, neither I vote you, or tp, or Lommy or... unless there is a major case behind the suspicion. You know it. (and if not look up there for the explanation)

But what I'm used to is to kind of give all my last thoughts forwards before I go as I don't know whether I'm alive when the next Day comes. So I pointed to the fact that I suspected Legate for that "doing a Legate 180" and when I saw the Star Wars -thing I thought it noteworthy enough to point it out (I was wrong, yes; but had he been a wolf and I had not pointed to that one, I would have cursed aloud if I had been killed the last Night and Legate had gone on winning the game while I had noticed that little thing but had not voiced it).

I like your "cut the crap" -attitude Boro, but this is not it. Not the least as you were one of those who actually lynched Legate.

Are you trying to whitewash yourself? Turning the attention to others from your own guilt? Couldn't resist lynching an innocent loudmouth who could be on your way? Got a trophy from lynching Legate?

#559. [The Great Balogna Post.]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I don't believe I left out anything important, I quoted your point about Gwath's contradiction and the devil's advocate line; I'm not going to quote you line by line here Nogrod, I would certainly hate to infringe on any type of copyright. Anyway, I'm not going to dive into this tit-for-tat, you're not reading what I'm saying stuff.

I said your case against Gwath was balogna. Period. And I thought it was very reasonable to ask why you continued to pressure Legate after you said you wouldn't be voting for him. Alright, you like to post your final thoughts before heading out, I know that, and concede it's normal for you. Normal doesn't mean you're not a wolf, and yes I guess that means it doesn't make you one either.

Anyway, I still call your vote for Gwath balogna. So, let me get this devil's advocate thing straight...you assumed if Gwath was a quiet wolf, and he knew you were going after the quiet players, than he would try to win your trust by voting for you as his rep? Also all that not wanting to lynch tp, me, legate...etc on Day 1 that you just love to feed everyone, ok got it. It's still balogna, because you assumed Gwath was a wolf and then carved out a reasoning to fit your assumption.

I'm also well aware that Lommy (and I believe Agan) originally threw out the idea that since McCaber died, they want to scream "Nogrod's a wolf." So, don't lecture me about not reading carefully. I just haven't said anything about it yet, because I wanted to get a response from you, and I can only do one thing at a time here.

I'm getting about as me-focused as the phantom here, because I thought after McCaber's death, crap the wolves are going to be coming after me, as at the end I made a case for why they should kill an innocent McCaber. Virtually, I signed his death warrant there...but really the opposite has happened. Lommy's said it makes me look innocent to her, Agan has voted me as a rep, and they both thought the death would point towards you. So, apparently if you're innocent, you're the one the wolves wanted to set up, or you're a wolf and killed McCaber.

Edit: crossed with Greenie and morm

#587.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Greenie went to sleep and I'm back.

Just the first ones to caught my attention (I really need to look at the thread better!).

Sorry, Boro, I appreciate your gaming a lot. And I'm always delighted to see you in a game I'm going to attend myself. But plese Mr. Boro, when you say my thoughts were "balogna" - whatever it is that word means - you should consider your own ones likewise. Why are you trying to twist this as I quite clearly answered you question that was something you hadn't read about (or had decided to ignore because it did not fit your interests of getting me lynched?)

I was not voting for Gwath because of the "contradictory" nature of his post but because of the possible intention behind it.

And I thought it a better idea than lynching Legate. Unlike you did...

Absolutely. As you said yourself. So why all the hassle? Because you thought you could get me lynched with it but had to concede it was not a case after all, right? Mr. smooth wolf?

You are doing the very same thing Boro! You are looking at me with eyes keen seeing wolfy-moves in my posts like I did with Gwath yesterDay. So you can't kind of claim you are on the high-ground you seem to be trying to reach here... Indeed this makes me look at you even more suspiciously as I know that my vote was for keeping the informative players around while you decided to let the village be without one of it's most sharp-eyed players who could turn the tables...

So whose case was a "balogna"? No one has yet called you for it, has anyone?

Well, I'm calling you now. Why did you vote Legate?
(you may have answered this already and then I apologise and will look at your answer from there... I will get reading all said toDay after I stop writing this)

X and Y said A is a wolf because of B. So don't lecture about me saying A is a wolf! I have not said anything on the matter!"
(and add B being like "s/he has used yellow socks before or s/he used the word "blue" earlier as well...")

You cared to echo their points, right? That comes about even with saying it yourself, doesn't it?

That is sneaky! And bad. Sorry Boro, I thought you'd perform better... But hiding behind te back of the two ladies ius just... bad.


So if you're an innocent, just check back on yourself. You are basically just doing the things you're accusing me of doing Boro and that's bad playing indeed. If you're evil, well, then we have to get you lynched sooner rather than later.

I'm not sure what to think of you.

I might vote you as a representative just to check your cards.


PS. Talking about paranoid wolves, just read this...
So you wrote McCaber to his death? Was that a confession indeed, muddied by the "opposite happened" -thing? I mean were you an innocent why should you say something like that no one had seen or mentioned (Well I have not seen all of toDay)?

Bad conscience knocking on the door that is not a Heaven? ?

#592.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

"I was not voting for Gwath because of the "contradictory" nature of his post but because of the possible intention behind it.~Nogrod"

Yet in your post (370) laying out your reasoning against Gwath...
"I'm one of those who were a bit uneasy with Gwath's vote for me as a representative. The contraditory nature of that vote was clear indeed. And it could be looked from the devil's advocate viewpoint quite easily and deemed evil."~Nogrod

Do I have to do an underline job like Shasta? You're connecting his contradictory vote with the reason Gwath could be deemed evil (that is what the word "and" does).

"You are doing the very same thing Boro!"~Nogrod

I already said I'm a hypocrite.

"Well, I'm calling you now. Why did you vote Legate?"~Nogrod

You cared to echo their points, right? That comes about even with saying it yourself, doesn't it?

Read my posts yesterday and you'll find out...or better yet read why Legate didn't want to make me a rep, he thought I would vote for him, he was right. Someone has to go, I made the wrong choice. I mean no offense to Legate, but it was day 1 and his death isn't a game-breaker. Are you confident a Gwath lynching would have turned up a different result?

"X and Y said A is a wolf because of B. So don't lecture about me saying A is a wolf! I have not said anything on the matter!"
(and add B being like "s/he has used yellow socks before or s/he used the word "blue" earlier as well...") "~Nogrod

I'm not sure why you're trying to alienate me on this one, when I brought it up as a possible reason that could point to your innocence. I said McCaber's death could have been an attempt at a set-up, with Lommy and Agan both saying it points to you. And as I said, I fully intend, and still do, plan to pursue that possibility, but I wanted to hear your response to my accusations first.

Edit: crossed with Brinn

#594.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Like I said, we would have changes in the representatives...

Now why don't you like tp any more?


Anyway, I'm giving Boro a third vote even if parts of toDay are just black areas to me as I had no time to read them all. I'll try to catch up tomorrow as it's now 3AM here... Happily we have these 48 hour-Days!

But I really want to see what Boro does with the power invested on him on that scale... even if it narrows down the number of the representatives.
(Think of the game balance indeed! Seven "two-voters" are the happiest place for the wolves qualified... after not being a representative in the first place, that is)

I don't trust him at all at this moment but I want to check his cards whatever it leads to.

++ Boro for representative

This Day has shown how this game works.

Lommy for Nerwen
Ner for Lommy
Agan for Boro
morm for Agan
KA for Lommy (2)
Green for morm
Eonwe for Lommy (3)
Rune for morm (2)
Kath for Boro (2)
Shasta for Nerwen (2)
Nogrod for Boro (3)


EDIt: X'd with Boro x2

EDIT: fixed stuff.

[Boromir88]

Nerwen, did you know everytime you quote me you will be charged 2,000 wight-bucks?

Greenie, no problem. You're absolutely right that it's good to question, as you all should be doing. It might seem like when I say things I'm confident and a bit cocksure, but in truth I'm not ( ::don't let anyone else know:: ). When I step in though, I don't footsie around, I go full metal jacket, which sometimes I do very well, and other times I look like an idiot. One time morm made me eat a sock and just recently Mac made me cut myself and pour lemon juice on it, because I made "sure" statements that ended up being 100% wrong. So, I definitely should be questioned, it keeps me in line, when I am not challenged I get like a rampaging baboon, and that is self-destructive.

[Nerwen]

Comments.

Well firstly, I 'd better apologize for filling up the thread with those epic posts. I just think it's better to have the quotes at hand for everyone to see, rather than making you all rely on my summary.

Now, I hadn't expected anything to jump out at me, and it didn't, not really. They had very little to do with each other the first few days, and even the first part of toDay, the overwhelming majority of Boro's interactions were with the phantom. (Bear in mind, though, that packmates may try to avoid being associated with each other.)

Some of their Day One comments could be read as the well-known "suspect-defend" tactic, while Boro at #271 even throws in "I suspect you... but I won't lynch you".

On the other hand, the quarrel toDay looks pretty genuine, and Boro makes some good points against Nogrod (even if he did confuse us all with his balogna). Which makes Nogrod's vote for him all the more puzzling.

Conclusion: no good evidence of a link between Boro and Nogrod... Their behaviour doesn't entirely rule it out either, but it's not what I'd call a "case".

So... fairly inconclusive. Well, it had to be done.

EDIT" X'd with Boro.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nerwen, did you know everytime you quote me you will be charged 2,000 wight-bucks?

Is that by the post, or by the sentence?

EDIT: repeated word.

[Aganzir]

Ouch.

Sorry. Getting home in the morning took me about six hours longer than I had thought it would.

Off to catch up with things now (it's going to take a long time), but the good thing is it's weekend so I can actually be around a bit longer tonight.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

There's a reason I made that comment about Gil. If you're innocent, then you'd do well to just agree with it and move on.

Originally Posted by me

I'm just letting him know that I have a good reason for saying it and that it is meant to benefit the innocent, therefore if he is innocent he should let it stand.

Originally Posted by Green

I don't see that mysterious reason he is talking about at all and would like to remind mr. phantom that even if you yourself know you are innocent, we others don't and have no reason to trust you.

You know- there was a time when I could just do ploys and such to help the village, and my fellow villagers wouldn't interfere. No, they would try as hard as they could to figure out what the heck I was up to, and try to play along. Or if they couldn't see what it was, they would just let it go, knowing full well that calling attention to a ploy and questioning it would render it useless.

I guess those days are over. You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.

All right, you want the explanation for why I declared Gil innocent, and suggested that all of us just consider him innocent?

Because if we all agreed to do it then the WWs would feel compelled to kill him, knowing that we'd never lynch him. Get it?

But of course we'd be faking- we can't honestly remove him from the possible lynch list. But as long as the WWs believed that Gil was never gonna get lynched, there's a possibility that they'd get rid of him. And so long as they're killing Gil, they can't be killing the Seer the same night, can they? (I seriously doubt he's the Seer.) And they'd also be removing someone who, if they had left around, could've been made into a sweet lynch target.

The fact is this ploy has worked before, in the sense that me or others saying junk like that has managed to influence the WW kill at night. Remember- we determine who the Wolves kill, for when they discuss the kill at Night they take into account our words and actions and probable next-day behaviors and use that to select the kill.

But yeah- that whole ploy is useless now. It may not have worked anyway, but I would've rather it not worked due to the WWs passing it up as opposed to having to explain the whole thing.

Originally Posted by Green

If we are talking about the "experienced veterans" click, this is certainly a good example.

Whatever. The fact is I recognized that Boro was doing the same exact sort of Seer ploy that I was planning on doing at a later time (ie trying to look like a possible Seer so the WWs kill you at night, thus buying another dream for the Seer). And then there was the McCaber kill which doesn't smell like Boro at all. Between those two things I felt that I might as well take a leap and trust him. If I'm wrong- congrats to him for bluffing me.

Satisfied, Green?

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by phantom

Satisfied, Green?

Quite, thank you. I'm sorry to have destroyed your ploy, though.

Originally Posted by phantom

You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.

I really hope it is so. You know, if no one pointed out behaviour that strikes them as suspicious or weird, then where would that lead? For my part, I have the habit of pointing out behaviour that looks suspicious or groundless to me, and I will not start making exceptions in that based on who the oddly behaving person is. (If I see an otherwise innocent-seeming you saying something like that in the future, though, I promise to let it go. )

[Boromir88]

Is that by the post, or by the sentence?~Nerwen

For you, Ner, per post.

Just some statements of intention...

I want to see Gwath show up, if he doesn't, I could possibily vote for him today.

Kath, I would also like to hear more from you. I have a feeling right now that you're innocent, but I want to hear your suspects and trusteds. I will have to go and look at your posts from Day 2 yesterday, because so far I still only remember your day 1 stuff...

That is, Eonwe and Greenie are wolves (I'll note you don't seem confident and just aren't sure). Also, as far as Day 1, you said you trusted Nogrod, Lommy, and Brinn. So, what do you have for us today.

And Agan (plus yes Nogrod, even you), I want your ideas today, and I'm sure I don't have to say this, because I bet both of you will be very participatory.

Nogrod, I don't like your reactions, it looks like baiting, I mean you quote me and say "backing away huh wolfy?" or "come on Boro, these weak cases aren't you" (I'm paraphrasing by the way), and I don't know what you're trying to get out of that. Then again, I guess you're giving me a taste of my own medicine, so maybe it's a sign your innocent. I don't know why you would vote for me as a rep, could it be taken as a "maybe he'll back away if I vote for him,"...possibly? Then again, I don't think that's you, and obviously your reason given is in no way saying think I'm innocent. Also, with some people saying how wierd it looks, I get a feeling that there are some wolves behind the scenes trying to get me to pull the latch on you ole buddy.

Edit: crossed with Greenie

[the phantom]

It's okay. The more important ploy (the Seer ploy) is still going strong, so no big deal. No matter how much Boro and I talk about how we're going to make ourselves Wolf-bait purposefully, the WWs still won't be able to get it out of their heads that it's all a bluff, and kill us anyway. Mwu ha ha!

It's fun to mess with them.

As far as Nog picking Boro- it did kind of surprise me. I'm not sure if it makes me suspect Nog or begin to clear him. On one hand I think Boro is probably innocent and therefore it is possible that an innocent Nog has come to believe it as well. But then there's the other possibility, that a guilty Nog saw that Boro and I both had some suspicion of him, and so voted for Boro to smooth things over and buy himself another day.

Which one is it? The world may never know.

Er... actually, we will know, probably just not today.

[mormegil]

I am not at all satisfied with Nerwen today and still will likely vote for her. Her tactics today indicate to me somebody who is trying to be very involved and helpful, but when I see so many quotes it seems that she is just making long posts to show how 'helpful' she is being...I don't buy it. I still think she played the ignorance card to help her buy immunity today which is working in most minds.

[Boromir88]

You can't do anything in this village without people pointing to it and jumping up and down.~the phantom

Come on tp, you know with all the insanely, yet brilliant, stuff you've pulled people aren't going to easily trust you. They will look at everything you do as some evil bluff.

I've accepted it already, so just accept it, keep trying all the ploys, and move on.

[Gwathagor]

Hi Boro.

I think, phantom, that in this case Greenie might have let your ploy slide without trying to make you explain what was going on, but I agree with her that in general the village should hold people accountable when they say weird stuff. It always drives me nuts when players say outlandish things that require us to take their innocence for granted.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Gwath

It always drives me nuts when players say outlandish things that require us to take their innocence for granted.

I'm innocent.

And on that note, Fea lied. There aren't any WWs. We're just killing each other for no reason. The lesson being that government and politics destroys people and drives wedges between them.

And make me a sandwich please. With extra BBQ sauce. Thanks.

[the phantom]

For anyone who is interested, here is a two-day Rep vote list-

Agan +++ Brin/Boro
Brin +++ Agan/Kath
Boro +++ tp/Agan
Eonwe ++ Green/Lommy
Gil +++++ none/none
Green ++ Brin/morm
Gwath ++ Nog/none
Ilya ++++ Boro/Rune
KA ++++ Boro/Lommy
Kath +++ Lommy/Boro
Lommy ++ Ilya/Nerwen
morm +++ Nog/Agan
Nerwen ++ none/Lommy
Nog +++++ Ilya/Boro
Rune ++++ none/morm
Sally ++++ Legate/none
Shasta +++ Agan/Nerwen
tp ++++++ Legate/Kath

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Hello. . . I am back from Odense and will now read through todays posts, luckely they seem to be on a resonable level.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Ilya

It was safe, which I guess is why it looks wolfish. I would also propose it looks like a newbie who only wants to stay in the game long enough until she can get the hang of it, and then start alienating people, but I can't decide for you.

Somehow I don't like the way you're playing the newbie card. It looks as if you were trying to avoid implying you're new and therefore want to stay alive. Now saying it would not be that bad a thing, but trying not to say it although meaning it because of thinking it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Agan, a "charismatic wolf" would be someone who has a bead on the general suspicions of the reps and would be able to do exactly what Boro did to me yesterday: cast a vote with authority, and convince me to jump on the bandwagon.

What I haven't figured out is what you meant by calling for a method of empowering reps so a charismatic wolf wouldn't get a chance to rule them. What kind of method would you suggest?

Originally Posted by Nog

So how come you tp think that if I act in the same way as you do it makes me look suspicious? What does it say of you?

As might have been noticed by now, I am one of those looking for persons who are behaving or thinking like I could as a wolf, and I don't think it's suspicious that other people try to notice it as well.

Originally Posted by Nog

And it would be an insult if you were an innocent thinking me a possible wolf with this. What are you up to?

I found this remark suspicious (just like I didn't like how Nerwen was offended by morm's suggestion she was playing a confused wolf). Mostly because they both were expressed so strongly. Why should anyone be insulted if someone doesn't seem to think they are as intelligent, cunning, pretty, whatever, they themselves think they are?

Originally Posted by Greenie

Somehow you seem more touchy and much quicker to retaliate to anything that even mildly concerns you.

Better get used to it since I have found it a nice way to play.
And as for categories, if I label people either as Guilty, Innocent, or Neither, do you think it means there are people I consider neither guilty nor innocent? Although the names be like that, it's basically just Suspicious, Not suspicious, and Dunno. If you have three categories and I am in the worst one, I think I have a reason to assume I am suspected. However the thing which caught my eye was that just because I no longer give you innocent vibes, I become worrying. Am I otherwise so suspicious that just those innocent vibes you couldn't put your finger on made you think I was innocent, and now that you don't get them anymore, you're worried about me instead of not knowing what to think of me?
I hope that question made more sense now than in my last post, where it wasn't quite clear.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Just for change, please elaborate on why exactly I am on your suspicion list.

I am happy to oblige (ie read through your posts & summarize them) at some point, although not quite now. However, you eventually ended up being there because of your reasons to be worried about me and the lack of explanations for them.
There are people I'm more interested in than you right now, so you have to wait.

Originally Posted by Boro

and they both thought the death would point towards you.

I can't say I really thought Cab's death would point towards Nog - it was only my gut reaction which I probably wouldn't even have mentioned if not for Lommy sharing it, too.

Originally Posted by Ka

That kill would be too close for comfort for our wolves, since I’m guessing they have at least one at the loudspeaker, one on the floor passing out comments, and the rest hiding out in different voting groups.

Do you have any specific reason to think so?
I've been repeating this to the point of exhaustion in the games I've played, but I don't think it's ever that simple, and I find little use in speculation.

Originally Posted by Ilya

When he voted for Brinn, he said a lot things about her being reason and trustworthly and then:
Quote:...and because she probably won't be the center of attention.

I don't consider agreeing with Brinn on one issue and saying she's usually trustworthy a lot of things. I also think I made it quite clear why I didn't want my rep to be the centre of attention: I'd rather there were several weak reps than a few strong ones. My reasoning included the idea of centres of attention getting many rep votes, which turned out a bit otherwise in the end, though.

Originally Posted by Rune

Anyways this seems to be Aganzir’s style and I must say it annoys me a great deal.

Yeah, it's my style for now. I bet you're not the only person whom it annoys, but that's the way of finding the wolves I'm the most comfortable with.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So why didn't you stand out from the crowd? Why didn't you try to lynch someone you really thought was a wolf? Here you are admitting to bandwaggoning without a good reason. At least you amit it. or maybe you are just putting it out in the open so that people say that and dpn't think that you're hiding something.

The problem was that there was no one I really thought was a wolf. Besides, being the first to cast a vote against someone can hardly be called bandwagoning. I don't mind Legate's death, but the way it happened - random suspicions coming up, and he receiving almost all the votes in the end.

Originally Posted by Rune

We can all agree that Nogrod have more experience than McCabber, but that was not what he said. . . He said he was more of a threat to the wolves that McCabber, these things are not the same.

Well if you were wondering whether to trust more a person who made really good big cases against people or one who popped in to say "X looks weird... I'll tell more later," which one would you choose? If by saying a threat to the wolves you mean a player who's good at spotting wolves, it's difficult to make a difference between them, but if you mean one who can more easily convince others to think the way s/he does, I think it's justified to call Nog a greater threat than Cab.

Originally Posted by Ilya

However, I do not like the implication she made about a rep not voting and irresponsibility today (521). These aren't sacred offices or anything but reps do have an obligation. As to throwaway votes, it's not a bad way for a shy wolf to act - everything's all tied up, so I'm just gonna go Nader. Or, you know, the phantom and his brand of jokery. I guess, in short, voting is important, and anyone who says otherwise bothers me.

I am sure you are aware that the origins of that rep not voting talk are in a post of mine on day 1 where I treated the idea of possible filibustering when I want to go to sleep pretty harshly, which Lommy found irresponsible and outrageous.
My personal opinion is that a rep should vote, but for the sake of argument I can't help wondering how deciding not to vote would be any different from throwing away one's vote. And actually throwaway votes aren't that good a way for a wolf, since they will be looked at in every case.

While writing this post I was reminded by my stomach that I haven't eaten anything today, except for a loaf of bread in the morning. Therefore I'm planning to have something to eat now. Then I could maybe try to complete my Ilya case and take that look at Nerwen's posts I was planning to.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Nerwen: Why do you quote all those posts by Boromir without adding a comment to them, it would be much more helpful just linking to the posts you refer to in your last post. This way jut take up a lot of space and with such a build up I was quite surprised how little analysing there was done.
Anyways I am impressed with the lengths you go in order to make up your mind about a sertain link, I could never make my self do that.

[FONT=&quot]So are you an extremely helpful individual or are you just engaging in massive surveys to appear innocent, I must admit that I am slightly suspicious of you. Anyways that matters not as I have little power in this village, a fact that has me much disheartened.

--------------------------------------------
I see that Aganzir has posted while I was writting.

I actually thought that we had moved beyond this subject, but if you insist. . .

[/FONT]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Well if you were wondering whether to trust more a person who made really good big cases against people or one who popped in to say "X looks weird... I'll tell more later," which one would you choose? If by saying a threat to the wolves you mean a player who's good at spotting wolves, it's difficult to make a difference between them, but if you mean one who can more easily convince others to think the way s/he does, I think it's justified to call Nog a greater threat than Cab.

I don't know what you mean by a "good" case, but of course if one never says anything else than "this person is suspicous" then you are little threat. I just want to point out that we where on day 1, there was plenty of time for McCabber to come good and on day 1 extensive cases are clearly overkill and seldom better than a gut feeling.

You are not a threat to the wolves if you convince people about your case and you are wrong. . .and now we have returned to an earlier stage of this discusion: Are more experienced players better at catching wolves.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And on that note, Fea lied. There aren't any WWs. We're just killing each other for no reason. The lesson being that government and politics destroys people and drives wedges between them.

Honestly, I wouldn't doubt it coming from Fea. Sometimes I think she would rather toy with us than play with us.

Sorry I'm going to be absent for a bit today...my team is playing in a couple of hours and I'm going to watch the game at somebody's house and do a few errands today. I should be back before the voting time but may cast my vote sooner. Nothing has swayed me not to vote Nerwen.

[Ilya]

I am sure you are aware that the origins of that rep not voting talk are in a post of mine on day 1 where I treated the idea of possible filibustering when I want to go to sleep pretty harshly, which Lommy found irresponsible and outrageous.
My personal opinion is that a rep should vote, but for the sake of argument I can't help wondering how deciding not to vote would be any different from throwing away one's vote. And actually throwaway votes aren't that good a way for a wolf, since they will be looked at in every case.

Coolbeans. I get that you were grouchy and by "bothered" I didn't mean in a suspicious way. Civic indifference is just a pet peeve of mine.

Somehow I don't like the way you're playing the newbie card. It looks as if you were trying to avoid implying you're new and therefore want to stay alive. Now saying it would not be that bad a thing, but trying not to say it although meaning it because of thinking it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it.

Ok, let's see if I can follow this. I avoided saying I was new Day 1 - check, thought if I brought it up it would be seen as too cloying. You're quite right in pointing out that saying it wouldn't be a bad thing - it's true, after all. That was a mistake on my part. "But trying not to say it although meaning it because of it would be suspicious is something I don't like, and it looks like it." Dude, help me untangle that clause. What is "it"? If you're worried that I flip-flopped on how to handle my lack of experience, well, yeah, I did. Be worried, I guess.

I'll be about in a little bit. I'm going to have a look at morm's stuff today since I didn't get to him last night.