WW XXIX Dor-en-Gaur

[Mithalwen]

Lommies' death was from the sort of situation I was thinking of when I said that wolves might keep Roa alive because of the possibility of engineering a lynch against someone who has a reputation of being a convincing wolf... and Ang forced our hand since Kath was number one suspect for me.

Fairplay to Rikae though she really made me rethink and I was doubting everyone by then..andI really hoped Farael was innocent rather than a disengaged wolf....

I was torn and by the time it came for me to vote it was too late.... I am surprised that Rikae chose to go for Boro since I am sure she must have been on his list of 3 ... unless I have misunderstood again.

[Kath]

I am surprised that Rikae chose to go for Boro since I am sure she must have been on his list of 3 ... unless I have misunderstood again.

No you are right Mith. The Night when Rikae and I were still alive we considered going out in a blaze of glory, sure we couldn't win. We thought it was possible that we were both on Boro's list and considered killing him so as to kill ourselves. On Night 5 when all the odds were against her I think Rikae went back to that option.

[Volo]

I somehow felt proud that Ang's first two kills were for exactly the two I suspected most while I was alive, being wrong didn't make me less proud of myself...

This game was just too much against the wolves, I really hoped that the alpha-wolf would be a great big suprise from Nogrod, but alas, it ended all too quickly.

Kudos to you again wolves, three rangers and still they couldn't stop your kills, well done! Liked the idea of three rangers, I hope that somebody will ressurect it.

You know, this game was peculiar in that there were two deaths that came almost out of nowhere.

Too much rushed thinking about wierd stuff...?
Sounds like something I'd have done.

[Boromir88]

This game was just too much against the wolves,

I think it was just a matter of the wolves being unlucky. I mean Day 1 it was me, and I was forced to reveal (which now I like how the gamble paid off ) Day 2 it was Durelin, which also led to the 'easing off of Firefoot' than Ang revealed at the best possible time. There were too many 'trusted' for the wolves to face towards the end...and it all goes back to Day 1 and 2, where by pure chance the two 'lynch candidates' were the hunter and a ranger.

I mean if that didn't happen and we didn't get a good group of people here that the village put their trust in, I would have said it was in the wolves favor especially if the Cobbler had survived longer. It seems like everything came apart for the wolves, but honestly if it wasn't for just a great job of collaberation by all the innocent I would imagine the wolves would have annhilated us.

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Thin

I admit.

Originally Posted by Mith

Err that might have been me

Ironically, I believe I put you two on my list of "tend to trust," with the qualifier that I never deem anyone innocent, but if I absolutely had to trust anyone, it would be you two.

Originally Posted by Boro

I think it was just a matter of the wolves being unlucky.

I think it was a little of both. It was five gifted (all with the ability to kill the wolves, albeit under certain conditions) against 3 wolves and a cobbler. The village was really unlucky up untill Night 3- We lost four innocents before the start of Day two, and then lynched another one. But it was still numbered in such a way that we were in a good spot. If you think about it, it's not like the wolves could just take out the known innocents, simply due to the nature of the gifted. Had the wolves been luckier, and we had fewer reveals, they may have gone longer. But as for winning, that would have taken some more luck (ie, killing the gifted in the night, with out getting killed themselves) or some really bold and risky plays. Now it's not as unbalanced as that whole "shaman" that appeared a little while back, and it still turned out fairly even. Also, had things been spread differently, it could have been a wolf victory.

Both sides played well, I think. I still don't know where that Morm bandwagon came from though.

[Mithalwen]

as it now seems..... things were pretty bleak at the end of day 2 when we were 6 innocents down (inc Naria).

What made the difference is that Ang held his nerve - and after Celuien he could have been excused for getting cautious - his taking out Rune turned the tide.

[Durelin]

I was totally convinced we were going to lose...

[Volo]

??? Huh, strange. I thought that an Assassin and a Hunter like that and three Rangers to defend them is a bit too good. A wolf would have no reason to reveal themselves as a Gifted because the Gifted (except Rangers) had no problem revealing themselves. A Hunter had a protective aura without Rangers, ok, it was luck that Boromir and not me was the Hunter, but just too many proven innocent well protected Superordos.

I don't think that the wolves could have done much better unless they killed the Assassin quickly, but because they didn't even know about an Assassin ( ) they wouldn't know whom to search.

Just my thoughts. We should try the same game system again if you ask me, maybe making the Alpha immune to the Gifteds or something.

[Mithalwen]

I wasn't hopeful at all..... not until we got Kath ..and even then I was scared we'd throw the advantage away..

Durelin .. I meant to say - this post made me laugh so much I really wanted you to be innocent ...... by the time I arrived it was so intense I forgot to be frivolous at all....

That and Ang's Zabaglione post were my favourites .....

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Volo

??? Huh, strange. I thought that an Assassin and a Hunter like that and three Rangers to defend them is a bit too good..

Not necessarily ..... what if we hadn't got Rune ? If we had lost we would have moaned about how the Assasin was a liability and the Informer an unfair advantange - gifteds are as gifteds does ....

I have modded 2 games ..in the first they had a full complement of gifteds (for the standard of the time) - and none of them got a chance to use their gifts.
Second game they only had the seer, who picked two wolves straight and the game was over in three days....

[Rikae]

I think we baddies did pretty well against the odds, especially considering that two of us had absolutely no experience as wolves!
Mith, Kath's right, I went after Boro because I figured I was done for anyway and might as well take the hunter with me instead of waiting around to be lynched or assassinated.
I really liked the "secret roles" feature of this game; it added a whole new level of strategy and excitement. When my turn comes to mod, I'm thinking of revisiting that idea.
Great game everyone! Volo, you still haven't told me how you knew I was a wolf on day one...

[Durelin]

Haha, thanks Mith! I wish I had more of a chance to be "in-character," but I got lazy at first, and then I got too into the game itself to bother with it too much...

And apologies to morm. I really had no reason to lynch you, I just wanted to save myself for some reason. I guess I foolishly felt like I was important. At least I knew of one additional innocent, and I was a known innocent for Firefoot, but...other than that I think I gave my Rangerness more credit than it deserved then.

Oh, I forgot to say this again: Rikae, awesome avatar!

[Rikae]

Thanks, same to you!

I wished Lal had kept hers a little longer; it's amusing to read the thread with the wolf avatars out there for all to see!

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Volo, you still haven't told me how you knew I was a wolf on day one...

Not before I died, when I posted my thoughts on you I didn't think you were a wolf. But the reason you voted me, it wasn't a reason... Well, it could have been seen as joke and agreement with others about me being suspicious.

So I guess the answer is that I didn't know you were a wolf on day1. How could I? You played really well, but for your reason to vote for me.


Indeed, the Informer, I didn't understand the role before you, Mith, mentioned it now. Hmm... Interesting role, Nogrod could give hints to the villains...

Yes, I agree now that the result depends on so many things. Killing Ang on night3 (did the other Ranger protect him then?) was proposed by the Informer, that would have made a big change. Knowing that Mith isn't a Ranger was also really useful knowledge...

(How glad I am that I wasn't the Cobbler/Informer, I would have had to lie unlike in any other role. I don't know how to be a liar! (Even though I act cobblerisque naturally. Do I?))

What was that shaman Roa mentioned?

[mormegil]

I think one of the problems on my bandwagon was that I wasn't able to be present while it happened. It easy to lynch somebody who is abscent. Plus I hadn't been behaving completely normal, but I have tried lately to add some variety to playing style.

[Kath]

And I liked it morm! Do you know I never suspected you at all? Which is just unheard of. It was strange realising that you'd been quiet though!

[Roa_Aoife]

It wasn't unbalanced, per se. It just required a good bit of luck on both sides (perhaps a bit more on the wolves side), which I suppose is how any game of werewolf should eventually end up. (I know I hate it when my victories are cheapened by saying the game was balanced in my favor *coughdeulingwizardscough*)

The "shaman" was like a seer, but instead the dream could go to any player. Given that there were some 12 villagers to 3 wolves, all the liklihood of receiving dreams was in the favor of the village, which allowed innocents to come forward with concrete information, and removed the danger of the shaman being revealed. It was like having an unkillable seer who could just make more and more known innocents and in the end it was obvious who the wolves were because there was quite literally everyone else was a known innocent. (My only loss as a wolf ever, and it was in part my fault for a crazy, overbold plan to combat the shaman.)

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Good game. I liked the villagers' reasoning towards the end.

[Nogrod]

I think the game was basically quite even, in it's initial setting I mean. Remember that both the Hunter and the Assassin could have had cut it both ways.

Like Boro said, by the happenstance that the Hunter and one Ranger came under heave pressure on Days1 and 2, they came forwards and changed the dynamics a lot by that. Had they been killed off then and there the situation would have returned to "somewhat even" again.

Then there was the incredible Assassin named Anguirel... I mean I had thought that the Assassin might kill once or possibly twice in a game. You could all think how often you would have used that power yourselves, especially after killing one of the Rangers as your first job...

And surely it helped Ang in his work that there seemed to be something like a Village consensus pretty early on that Lal, Kath, Rikae (and Firefoot) looked the most suspicious. Add to that the "knowledge" (well, one can't be sure, but anyhow) of Durelin and Boro - later also Ang being innocents. Well the wolves had no chance in that situation anymore.

So even though it looked like the wolves were having the upper hand after a couple of Days the tide had actually started to turn slowly against then already, consisting of a lots of minute details that consistently turned to the favour of the villagers.

With someone else gaining the mostly random suspicion on Day1 than Boro, Someone not spotting some people wolvishly backing each other in a vague manner, someone less assured / bloody player as the assassin... and the game would have been a lot different.

But it was a lot of fun as it was, and kudos to the Village for great thinking and brilliant co-operation, and a deep bow to the wolves who died fighting to the end (especially Rikae did great the last Day she was alive!).

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean I had thought that the Assassin might kill once or possibly twice in a game. You could all think how often you would have used that power yourselves, especially after killing one of the Rangers as your first job...

Would somebody really not use a dagger like that?

I would have been so obsessed about that shiny pointy thingie that I'd pierce the eyes of anybody coming too close. I would have whined about why does the Assassin get only one kill a day.

On the other hand. I guess it was lucky that Ang got it...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Really sorry to have lynched you Lommy....

Never mind Mith - lynching innocents is what usually tends to happen in werewolf games... ...

Originally Posted by Mith

Lommies' death

singular: lommy, plural: lommies, possessive plural: lommies' ? .confused:

Originally Posted by Roa

Ironically, I believe I put you two on my list of "tend to trust," with the qualifier that I never deem anyone innocent, but if I absolutely had to trust anyone, it would be you two.

Should I be flattered?

Originally Posted by morm

It easy to lynch somebody who is abscent.

I agree. And almost everytime these rushed last-minute lynches kill innocents...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Lommy

I agree. And almost everytime these rushed last-minute lynches kill innocents...

One of the reasons that I am generally against retractable votes. While I appreciate the last-minute excitement that they can bring, the downside is that a villager (whether a Wolf or an innocent) can suddenly be turned on and lynched without having much, if any, say in the matter. Further, it can largely exclude from any meaningful participation in the lynching all of those who are not able to be around at the end of the Day.

To my mind, a vote is a vote is a vote, and it should be final. Suspicions can be aired, accusations can be made, threats can be issued, but a vote is something which should be carefully considered. To my mind, non-retractable votes encourage much more strategic play - from Wolves and innocents alike. The timing of the vote becomes much more important (although this admittedly can sometimes be forced upon a player by RL committments). It also allows the Day to tell more of a continuous story, rather than one with a final twist at the end of which turns it on its head.

An enjoyable game, nevertheless, from a spectator's perspective. Congrats to the villagers (although I was, as always rooting for the Wolves) and excellent modding, Nogrod. I liked the new roles, the assassin and the informant particularly. I do wonder, though, whether there is room for both a hunter and an assassin in a single village.

In my view, it could have gone either way until near to the end. The declarations, however, are what made the difference. While (with the exception of Ang's) they were essentially forced by events, they were all timed to maximum effect. With a hunter role like Boro had in this game, combined with at least one ranger, there is a good argument for revealing on Day 1 every time.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

One of the reasons that I am generally against retractable votes. While I appreciate the last-minute excitement that they can bring, the downside is that a villager (whether a Wolf or an innocent) can suddenly be turned on and lynched without having much, if any, say in the matter. Further, it can largely exclude from any meaningful participation in the lynching all of those who are not able to be around at the end of the Day.

Indeed. The reason I've sometimes voted against having retrackies is that they're sometimes unfair for those not in the convenient timezone...

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Indeed. The reason I've sometimes voted against having retrackies is that they're sometimes unfair for those not in the convenient timezone...

Nah, I think the same goes for one vote. Two votes is better for people with changing timetables. But then, there are people who have a certain limited amount of time (like Lommy) and people who might have a full day or no time at all (like me). And I don't think that one vote brings more strategy, it brings different strategy, but two votes brings just as much. I personally like two votes more.

[Mithalwen]

One option would be to let the hunter's list match the number of werewolves still at large - that would have made the end tighter and kept with the idea of a "logical" hunter - 3 names when looking for three wolves ..1 name when looking for 1 wolf...

And Sauce after this I was, as always rooting for the Wolves - how do you ever hope to survive Day 1 again?

Lommy - oops

[Anguirel]

Well. Argh. Um. That was traumatic...

I must admit, I wanted to back wolves, preferably more wolves than the village. So I killed Kath rather than letting her be lynched; and I helped lynch Thinlomien with the private reason that if I was wrong, I would probably personally bag the last wolf afterwards...

Never have I seen a more shoulder-to-shoulder village than this one, after the death of Lalwende in particular. Remarkable.

But I do think it could have gone either way; the double-killing was a terrifying threat earlier on. I killed impetuously largely because I didn't want to be eaten before doing something...spectacular.

Hilarious how in the arch-Ranger game, not a single kill was stopped!

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Ang

Hilarious how in the arch-Ranger game, not a single kill was stopped!

Well, you went and offed poor Celuien, and then Firefoot and I were too busy trying to protect you random gifteds that kept popping up...

I must admit I root for the wolves at times...basically whenever I'm not a Gifted and feel like I have to help the village and, as Ang said, do something spectacular. So far I have failed.

*is waiting to be a Wolf*

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

*is waiting to be a Wolf*

"Your time is gonna come..." (know the old Led Zeppelin song? )

[Durelin]

Haha, yep, and...eventually...maybe.

And then for once it will be lucky that I'm a pathological liar...as I have been accused of being, anyway...

[Roa_Aoife]

Originally Posted by Durelin

*is waiting to be a Wolf*

Welcome to the darkside. Have a cookie.

[Durelin]

Mmm...

*dons black cape, sharpens her claws, bears her fangs, and starts working on her evil laugh...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Volo

Two votes is better for people with changing timetables.

Why so? If a variable timetable means that someone cannot be on-line at the end of a particular Day, they are disadvantaged whether the votes are retractable or not. In any event, most people seem to have fairly fixed times when they can be on. While non-retractable votes can disadvantage those who cannot be on-line at the Day's end to a degree, I think that it is less so than retractable votes, because, with retractable votes, much of the real action happens at the Day's end.

Originally Posted by Volo

And I don't think that one vote brings more strategy, it brings different strategy, but two votes brings just as much.

True, but with retractable votes, the strategy is focussed much more on the Day's end, whereas it is spread more throughout the day with non-retractables.

Originally Posted by Mith

And Sauce after this I was, as always rooting for the Wolves - how do you ever hope to survive Day 1 again?

Hehe. I meant as a spectator, of course.

I have a habit of rooting for underdogs. In the early days of Werewolf, when the Wolves were running riot, I tended to root for the innocents. These days, with innocents achieving greater ascendency, I tend to root for the Wolves.

When Volo was lynched on the first Day in this game, I thought that it was going to be another of those games where the villagers lynch themselves to their doom by killing innocents who are just acting too suspiciously to be Wolves (it was clear to me that he was innocent ) and Day 2 wasn't much better. Happily, though, you innocents turned it round with some much more clear and incisive thinking in the end.

As I recall, my suspects at the end of Day 1 were Celuien, Firefoot and Lal (and hence could understand Ang's misplaced kill). There is just something about the way Gifteds act that always make me think them Wolves. I am, of course, a seasoned Seer lyncher.

Hey, do you think I could get a job as a half-time summariser for Werewolf games ...