Family Tree Trivia

[Galadriel55]

Finrod and Tuor are not correct. What would that encounter be, that they are most famous for? Finrod could be said to be famous for meetin Men, or Sauron. Tuor's great deeds don't really include encounters, per se, unless you count Ulmo's instruction session. I don't think they share a grand encounter in common.

[Urwen]

Didn't they both meet Ulmo? *confused*

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Didn't they both meet Ulmo? *confused*

Sure, but how is Finrod meeting Ulmo the thing he is best known for? You are looking for encounters that are both legendary, and, arguably, the greatest points of both kinsmen's lives.

As a further hint, keep looking in the First Age.

[Urwen]

Legendary as in, for instance, Feanor meeting Galadriel and she inspiring him to make Silmarils?

[Urwen]

Oh, wait, a thought occurred to me. Let's see if it's the right one.


And it isn't.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, generic possibilities:

- The grandchildren of Finwe and their descendents.

- The house of Elwe and Olwe - Luthien is 1c1r to both Celeborn and Galadriel, for example.

- The early Edain; I wonder whether Beor might be one of the two, perhaps by way of the leader of one of the other houses being called his cousin.

- The late Edain, centred around the cast of the three Great Tales.

All of which come together in the vicinity of Earendil.

I did wonder if it could be Luthien and Idril, but I don't think Her Highness of Doriath is that closely related to the Gondolin crowd.

It might be Luthien and Aredhel, if we believe that Eol is first cousin to Thingol. They both met a man in the woods and thus began the significant parts of their stories. But I think Eol is only "kin" to Elu.

hS

[Urwen]

I thought about Luthien and Arwen, but that doesn't pan out either.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Legendary as in, for instance, Feanor meeting Galadriel and she inspiring him to make Silmarils?

Legendary as in, for instance, "Feanor made the Silmarils" - a deed that is of great renown, AND arguably the most important deed of his life, if you were to sum it up in one sentence. What is his meeting Galadriel? Details on the margins. You are looking for grand things.

If you are tackling this from the family tree perspective, Hui, here's something: both kinsmen are from the same RACE, but are counted in different sub-groups of that race. (E.g. to clarify with a Third Age example, both Legolas and Glorfindel are Elves, but one is Silvan and the othery is Noldor).

[Urwen]

So it's the encounter itself that is legendary.

Okay, so...

Beren and Luthien meeting
Tuor meeting Ulmo

and that's it as far as I know...

[Urwen]

Wait, wait, wait. Turin and Earendil are first-cousins once-removed, I believe, and they both slew dragons. And since Turin and Nienor were married, Turin is both Earendil's first-cousin-once-removed and his first-cousin-once-removed-in-law.

How about that?

ETA: Your 'race' comment invalidates that. Bummer...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Legendary as in, for instance, "Feanor made the Silmarils" - a deed that is of great renown, AND arguably the most important deed of his life, if you were to sum it up in one sentence. What is his meeting Galadriel? Details on the margins. You are looking for grand things.

If you are tackling this from the family tree perspective, Hui, here's something: both kinsmen are from the same RACE, but are counted in different sub-groups of that race. (E.g. to clarify with a Third Age example, both Legolas and Glorfindel are Elves, but one is Silvan and the othery is Noldor).

O-kay. I think that means it has to be either a Noldo/Sinda pair, or a pair between two of the three Houses of Men.

A poke through the Sindar tree doesn't show anything obvious, so I'm thinking Men. Who are the notable Edain of the First Age?

... ah.

Beren's first cousin is Baragund, father of Morwen. Morwen's husband is Hurin - and Beren and Hurin both encountered Morgoth Bauglir (which went rather better in Beren's case, and that's saying a lot!).

hS

[Urwen]

Come on, one of us has to be right, so which one is it?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Beren's first cousin is Baragund, father of Morwen. Morwen's husband is Hurin - and Beren and Hurin both encountered Morgoth Bauglir (which went rather better in Beren's case, and that's saying a lot!).

Indeed! Though Hurin arguably had the greater courage, staring down Morgoth and telling him he's a sorry idiot. Beren, if I recall, spent most of the time slinking in the corners or being unconscious. But still, his trip there and back again from Angband is his most famous deed.

Over to you!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Indeed! Though Hurin arguably had the greater courage, staring down Morgoth and telling him he's a sorry idiot. Beren, if I recall, spent most of the time slinking in the corners or being unconscious. But still, his trip there and back again from Angband is his most famous deed.

Sure, and courage, heroism, glory, and tuppence will get you a tuppenny sweet. The Silm is really down on doing things that get you noticed, isn't it? Like, the #1 combat instruction it gives is "Don't Let The Enemy Notice You".

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Over to you!

Okay, let's talk inheritance. In general, titles in Middle-earth are passed down father to son - most notably in Aragorn's family, which is pretty much a straight shot back to Silmarien. But sometimes there's a break, and a more distant relative has to take the title.

Treating each title as a separate creation (ie, Elendil is not the heir of Tar-Miriel), and looking only at titles which did not fall into abeyance along the way (ie, Aragorn did not inherit from Isildur), and ignoring non-inherited titles (ie, Mayor of the Shire), who is the most genealogically distant confirmed inheritor of a title in the history of Middle-earth?

(I've found a couple of options, but if someone can outdo them I'll be delighted.)

hS

[Urwen]

Does 'Ring-bearer' count?

Cos if so, Deagol, from Isildur...

[Urwen]

Serious answer though. Since all three (four. ) are distantly related, the title of Numenorean Ruling Queen is shared between Ancalime, Telperien, Vanimelde and Miriel.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Does 'Ring-bearer' count?

Cos if so, Deagol, from Isildur...

But what was the precise relationship between the two...?

Anyway, no: the title was in abeyance [= disused] in between, not directly inherited. Also I don't think it was an official title, except as used of Frodo.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Serious answer though. Since all three (four. ) are distantly related, the title of Numenorean Ruling Queen is shared between Ancalime, Telperien, Vanimelde and Miriel.

Now that's clever, but I don't think it counts - leaving aside whether it's actually a different title to "King of Numenor" (they inherited from and were inhereted by kings), it would be in abeyance in between them.

hS

[Urwen]

By your initial wording, it does count, since you never specified it cannot be in abeyance in your initial post.


But I like a challenge, so I will keep looking anyway.

[Urwen]

So Earnil inherited the title from Ondoher, and they're distantly related.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

By your initial wording, it does count, since you never specified it cannot be in abeyance in your initial post.

But I like a challenge, so I will keep looking anyway.

I did in the final question, though not discussed in the preamble. It was the last bit I added in before posting. (The edit was because I'd spelt 'tuppenny' with one N.)

Originally Posted by Urwen

So Earnil inherited the title from Ondoher, and they're distantly related.

And that's the most distant answer I found too. Kind of disappointed it wasn't something more obscure! I was inspired by the time the crown of France was passed to a line that had split off three centuries earlier.

The other option, rather more dubious, is Gil-Galad: if he's the son of Orodreth son of Angrod, then he would be first cousin twice removed to the previous High King, Turgon.

hS

[Urwen]

So do I get a turn or no?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

So do I get a turn or no?

I'm sorry, I'm afraid the next six turns have been sold to Amazon; they're creating a series of puzzles about the previously-unknown Heirs of Miriel which should be released sometime in 2025.

Yes, it's your turn.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm sorry, I'm afraid the next six turns have been sold to Amazon; they're creating a series of puzzles about the previously-unknown Heirs of Miriel which should be released sometime in 2025.

hS

Let me guess, Mabur, Mahur, Magur, Masur and Faramir.

[Urwen]

Okay, so there are two known members of Elros' line who lost the throne that was rightfully theirs. How many 'generations' (loosely speaking) are between them?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Let me guess, Mabur, Mahur, Magur, Masur and Faramir.

Oh, you saw the press release too!

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, so there are two known members of Elros' line who lost the throne that was rightfully theirs. How many 'generations' (loosely speaking) are between them?

Hmm. One must be Tar-Miriel, but after that... Tar-Alcarin, whose sceptre was siezed by his dad? There are seven Kings of Numenor between Alcarin and Miriel (plus them makes nine).

Or is this about Silmarien, who should have been Ruling Queen had Numenor had better laws? Probably not, but there's 20 generations (ish) between her and Miriel.

... I've only just now realised that Tar-Meneldur from the Aldarion and Erendis story is Silmarien's brother. He... really didn't want to be king, did he? He holed himself up in a tower in Forostar, then abdicated as soon as an excuse came along. I kinda like him.

hS

[Urwen]

Proceed.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Proceed.

So... um... which answer was it? I gave two.

Okay, so: What is the familial relationship between Frodo and Sam?

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

So... um... which answer was it? I gave two.

The first one

[Urwen]

Can't find anything that suggest that they're even related...

[Urwen]

Unless this is a trick question and you mean the other one, in which case, they're father and son.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Can't find anything that suggest that they're even related...

They are, by marriage.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Unless this is a trick question and you mean the other one, in which case, they're father and son.

Does it say "hobbitses" in our usernames, preciousss? We're not tricksy, no, not us!

hS

[Urwen]

I think I found a link, but it's a long one.

Let's see: son-in-law's father's grandfather's grandson's great-grandfather's grandson.

Yea, a bit convoluted...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

I think I found a link, but it's a long one.

Let's see: son-in-law's father's grandfather's grandson's great-grandfather's grandson.

Yea, a bit convoluted...

That seems to be right, but you took a more complex route than me! Faramir and Frodo are both direct descendants from the Old Took, so in fact Sam is father-in-law to Frodo's second cousin twice removed.

Your version went through Merry, right? Thus neatly linking all four of the Fellowship Hobbits.

Over to you.

hS

[Urwen]

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

Well, let's try the hobbit take on this one. Bilbo and Frodo both left the Shire to save Bigger People in distant lands, and returned home. Though the grand deed by Shire reckoning is as likely to be that they managed to reclaim Bag-End after all the weirdness. Relationship: errm, second cousons once removed?

[Urwen]

Nope.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Two related people performed the same kind of 'grand deed'. Who are they and how are they related?

Finwe and Fingolfin are father and son and both faced Morgoth (and died).

Earnil and Earnur are father and son and both fought the Lord of the Nazgul.

Durin III is the direct (and distant) ancestor of Dain, and they both faced Durin's Bane (though only Dain lived).

Arvedui is Aragorn's ancestor; both fought the Nazgul.

Elros is the ancestor of Elendil; both sailed over the sea and founded great kingdoms of the Edain.

Beren and Tuor are, what, first cousins twice removed? Both married Elven women and had half-elven sons.

Feanor is Earendil's great-great-uncle; both sailed across the Great Sea to alter the course of the First Age at one of its ends.

Beren is many-times-great-grandfather to Isildur, and both cut a Dark Lord to get some jewellery.

Namo and Irmo are brothers, and both sang in the Music of the Ainur.

Are we following Bilbo's rules where "just guess randomly" is a viable puzzle, or is there a clue hidden somewhere in the question? I can't find 'grand deed' as a canonical descriptor, and that's the only thing that would seem to fit.

hS

[Urwen]

Well, the great deed is something one is famous for, while the other also happened to do it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, the great deed is something one is famous for, while the other also happened to do it.

Well, unless you're gonna be more specific, it might as well be Primula Baggins and Deagol, (very) distant kin whose most well-known life event is toppling into a river.

[Urwen]

Nope. These two were already mentioned, on this exact page.