The Middle Earth Popularity Cup

[Ilya]

++Gandalf

Because he has more names.

[Thinlómien]

Gandalf 7
Galadriel 6

++Galadriel

If there's a tie, they both get through, don't they, skippy?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Bad analogy there Groin. Everyone knows that reading Lord of the Rings leads straight to any number of addictions (particularly pipeweed), and even worse, bouts of sanctimoniousness.



You said it yourself, Gandalf is the original Rolling Stoner, and he exhibits many primary traits of a hippie, as already pointed out by Lal, who perhaps fit in well with the Carnaby Street crowd at one point in time.

I still disagree. Unlike hippies, Gandalf actually had something important to do and proved to be productive in counsel wherever he went.

[skip spence]

Gandalf has powered his way into the semi-finals, defeating Galadriel 7 votes to 6.

Quarter Final 4:
Sam in the second favourite to win the Popularity Cup now having impressed so far. In the first round he eased past Legolas and then managed to overcome the strong Aragron in the second round. His opponent today is almost his diametrical opposite and this is a clash between genres as much as it is a clash between characters.

Sam - Túrin

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Gandalf 7
Galadriel 6

++Galadriel

If there's a tie, they both get through, don't they, skippy?

No they don't, dear. And it isn't a tie unless I'm mistaken. Your vote was late and in any case Gandalf had 8 votes already.

Edit: Sorry, I was. Ilya's vote was also late. Gandalf still wins though.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

++Túrin

Sam is nice, but we need some good (ahem... but actually, yes, why not?) interesting (that's better in any case) character to be there, since most of the really good characters are off (of course besides Gandalf now, but still). Although, unless I am mistaken, there is also some Boromir in there... (in which case, though, the characters we come up with are rather of the same sort - Túrin, Boromir...).

[mormegil]

*sigh* I have dreaded this round for a long time now. However I must say that despite my name Sam is probably my favorite. So it is with a great deal of difficulty that I cast my vote. I really had hoped that these two would meet in the final round.

++Samwise

[Strongbow]

++Túrin

I like the First Age, for some reason.

[Thinlómien]

Skippy, because you're Swedish, you're supposed to call people "älskling" not "dear". It's a much funnier word.

Anyway,

++Túrin

His story is very dark and beautiful, and however jerkish Túrin himself is, he can be understood, and it's not really his fault.

I still have my (momentary?) grudge against Sam going on, so I won't praise him here like I normally would. * at self*

[Tuor in Gondolin]

+ + Sam

Outside of a few Beleriand elves
is Turin "popular" with anyone?

And who would you rather have a Green Dragon
ale with?

[Eönwë]

++Sam

I feel sorry for Turin, find him interesting, but I don't really like him.

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

+ + Sam

Outside of a few Beleriand elves
is Turin "popular" with anyone?

And who would you rather have a Green Dragon
ale with?

Heck, who would you really rather have on your side? Turin might slay a few dozen enemies, but he'd doom your entire army with his myriad of salient flaws.

I'd rather have Samwise with me as a simple paige or aide-de-camp than Turin as a general.

++Samwise

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Hmm, this is a tough one. Turin depresses me, and Sam annoys me (well, he annoyed Tolkien, too, sometimes). Time to pull out the coin again.... *flip*

++Turin

I can live with that, I think. If the Silmarillion had been published before Michael Moorcock's writings, I would've suspected Turin was the inspiration for Elric of Melnibone, and though I find him depressing, too, I also think he's interesting. In small doses.

[Lalwendë]

davem needs the Mac, so this is quick, but...

++Sam

You know this makes sense. He's no fly-by-night, nor is he stuck-up and full of himself. And he mostly does no wrong at all. There's no justice of Turin beats him.

Plus Turin is a stupid name for a character. There, I've said it

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

There's no justice of Turin beats him.

Except for the poetic justice!

++ Túrin


Gosh! Had I been able to peak in earlier we could have dropped Gandalf out!

That would have been something indeed!

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Skippy, because you're Swedish, you're supposed to call people "älskling" not "dear". It's a much funnier word.

Alright, älskling. I had a few crunchy and delicious Finn Crisps and some Vino just now and thought about you guys. Not because they're crunchy and delicious like you, but because they're Finnish like you.

Originally Posted by Tuor

Outside of a few Beleriand elves is Turin "popular" with anyone?

Are you kidding? Túrin's Mr. Popular. He comes to Doriath as a teenager and soon befriends its two greatest captains and becomes an important and well respected Man. Then, after his flight, he is captured by outlaws and soon enough becomes their captain. In Nargothrond his immense popularity makes him, a mortal man and outsider, the informal leader whose will even the king yields to. Findulias, sister of the king, falls in love with the strapping lad. The same story is repeated in Bretil when he soon has the whole country almost worshipping him.

Hm. I can't decide who to vote for though. I was leaning towards Túrin but I also like Sam. Hm...

++Turin

Because he's a more interesting in a literary sense.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

Time to pull out the coin again.... *flip*

Which side was which, I wonder.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

++Turin

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Except for the poetic justice!

Pht.

If you call that 'poetic justice' then it's Vogon poetry

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Pht.

If you call that 'poetic justice' then it's Vogon poetry

Now there's a thought. Perhaps the Valar should have
threatened Feanor to several hours of Vogon poetry if
he wouldn't turn over the silmarils.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Tuor in Gondolin

Now there's a thought. Perhaps the Valar should have
threatened Feanor to several hours of Vogon poetry if
he wouldn't turn over the silmarils.

I reckon Gandalf could have had the beaten Saruman under control in half the time if he'd just brought along his Big Book Of Vogon Verse to Orthanc

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Skip

Are you kidding? Túrin's Mr. Popular. He comes to Doriath as a teenager and soon befriends its two greatest captains and becomes an important and well respected Man. Then, after his flight, he is captured by outlaws and soon enough becomes their captain. In Nargothrond his immense popularity makes him, a mortal man and outsider, the informal leader whose will even the king yields to. Findulias, sister of the king, falls in love with the strapping lad. The same story is repeated in Bretil when he soon has the whole country almost worshipping him.

Excellent points. I hadn't even thought of it from that angle. Turin does indeed seem to be quite the popular one.

++ Turin

[Gollum the Great]

Two of my favorites. Sam... Turin...

Landslide victory!!!

++The Mormegil

[mormegil]

You are all bigots!!!

Just because Sam is smaller than you that doesn't mean you have to hate him. Geez I may just have to leave the downs after such a demonstraton of unbridled prejudism and hatred...for shame!!!

[the phantom]

You voted against your own screen name, morm.

I've lost all respect for you. Your words no longer have any sway with me.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You voted against your own screen name, morm.

I've lost all respect for you. Your words no longer have any sway with me.

Have they ever had sway?

[the phantom]

Oh yes. One time you convinced me Firefoot was bad.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I still disagree. Unlike hippies, Gandalf actually had something important to do and proved to be productive in counsel wherever he went.

And hippies did not have something important to do and weren't productive? Pffft!

*Glares indignantly*

Actually, there are alot of things hippies and Gandalf had in common:

1) Gandalf sparred verbally with Wormtongue; hippies had words with Tricky Dick.

2) Gandalf smoked pipeweed; hippies had weed-pipes.

3) Gandalf hung around with Dwarves and Hobbits; hippies hung out with Eric Burdon of the Animals, who described himself as 'an over-fed, long-haired leaping gnome'.

4) Gandalf was long-haired, bearded and disheveled; hippies were like that too, only younger.

5) Gandalf once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs; hippies were...ummm...forgetful too.

6) Gandalf took hikes; hippies hitchhiked.

7) Gandalf burned pinecones; hippies burned draft cards.

8) Gandalf helped end the War of the Ring; hippies helped end the Vietnam war.

9) Gandalf was considered a troublemaker and disturber of the peace; hippies? ditto.

10) Gandalf was called Stormcrow by Theoden; Stormcrow? Man, like, what an awesome name for a band!

Oh and I vote for ++Samwise

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Which side was which, I wonder.

I'll never tell.

[Andsigil]

Nice list. I'll have a go at fisking it.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

1) Gandalf sparred verbally with Wormtongue; hippies had words with Tricky Dick.

Wormtongue was a fifth-columnist. Gandalf sided against him.

2) Gandalf smoked pipeweed; hippies had weed-pipes.

But it would only be conjecture to say that Gandalf's pipeweed had any hallucinogenic qualities.

3) Gandalf hung around with Dwarves and Hobbits; hippies hung out with Eric Burdon of the Animals, who described himself as 'an over-fed, long-haired leaping gnome'.

But would Gandalf have spilled the wine or taken the pearl?

4) Gandalf was long-haired, bearded and disheveled; hippies were like that too, only younger.

Only in the gray days. When he went to Gandalf the White, he was quite well cleaned up.

5) Gandalf once knew every spell in all the tongues of Elves or Men or Orcs; hippies were...ummm...forgetful too.

No argument there!

6) Gandalf took hikes; hippies hitchhiked.

Hiking has more character than bumming rides. As does riding Shadowfax (the Rolls Royce of horses).

7) Gandalf burned pinecones; hippies burned draft cards.

Gandalf used those pinecones as weapons. Perhaps molotov cocktails would be a better comparison?

8) Gandalf helped end the War of the Ring; hippies helped end the Vietnam war.

But Gandalf ended the War of the Ring by fighting in it and winning.

9) Gandalf was considered a troublemaker and disturber of the peace; hippies? ditto.

I would venture that his disturbing and troublemaking had a slightly more noble purpose than, say, Woodstock.

10) Gandalf was called Stormcrow by Theoden; Stormcrow? Man, like, what an awesome name for a band!

Seek and ye shall find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7_VoGPPNXo
I'm not sure if this actually qualifies as hippie music, though. Hippies did make some decent music. I'm really not fond of this group.

Oh and I vote for ++Samwise

Good choice, although I think we're behind in this round.

By the way, positive rep inbound to you for coming up with this list.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Wormtongue was a fifth-columnist. Gandalf sided against him.

Hmmm...the term fifth columnist is appropriate, I guess, as Saruman was rather fascist (he did share the love of overblown oratory with Mussolini and Hitler).

Originally Posted by Andsigil

But it would only be conjecture to say that Gandalf's pipeweed had any hallucinogenic qualities.

But didin't Saruman tell Gandalf something to the effect that the Hobbit's weed had addled his wits? I think perhaps the Hobbits were closet hippies (the suburban kids with the long hair and Che Guevara posters driving about in their parent's Porsches), as in addition to pipeweed they were fond of 'shrooms.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

But would Gandalf have spilled the wine or taken the pearl?

Not sure about that, but in the same song Burdon refers to the 'Hall of the Mountain King'. Very suspect if you ask me.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Only in the gray days. When he went to Gandalf the White, he was quite well cleaned up.

Well, hippies also bundled up their ideals, subversiveness and patchouli oil in well-worn steamer trunks and became well-heeled stock brokers and manufacturing reps. *shrugs*

Originally Posted by Andsigil

No argument there!

Ummm...what were we talking about again?

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Hiking has more character than bumming rides. As does riding Shadowfax (the Rolls Royce of horses).

John Lennon had a Rolls Royce.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Gandalf used those pinecones as weapons. Perhaps molotov cocktails would be a better comparison?

It was more an analogy to fighting evil, but your comparison is applicable, particularly at the '68 Democratic Convention in Chicago.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

But Gandalf ended the War of the Ring by fighting in it and winning.

Make love, not war. But the counterculture protests of the '60's did do a lot for civil rights, the anti-war movement and women's lib. They were also cool places to meet chicks.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

I would venture that his disturbing and troublemaking had a slightly more noble purpose than, say, Woodstock.

Woodstock had its elements of nobility. One just had to look under the mud.

Originally Posted by Andsigil

Seek and ye shall find:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7_VoGPPNXo
I'm not sure if this actually qualifies as hippie music, though. Hippies did make some decent music. I'm really not fond of this group.

Wow, that was dreadful! And no, that would not be what anyone was listening to during the Summer of Love (or anyone should listen to presently). That doesn't rank up there with The Beatles, The Doors or even The Mothers of Invention.

Sorry for the digression. Back to tallying the votes!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

But didin't Saruman tell Gandalf something to the effect that the Hobbit's weed had addled his wits? I think perhaps the Hobbits were closet hippies (the suburban kids with the long hair and Che Guevara posters driving about in their parent's Porsches), as in addition to pipeweed they were fond of 'shrooms.

Well, seeing as the nicotine found in tobacco is a well known stimulant and would do anything but 'addle your wits', your guess is as good as mine as to what exactly pipe-weed might have been, but it might have been something quite interesting....

Hobbits...they are like Swampy and his mates - living in holes and going bonkers for shrooms and pipeweed....

[Aganzir]

++Túrin

Right now I feel more like liking Túrin than Sam.

[Nogrod]

Gah! I already voted for Túrin so I have no way to retract it now even if I should for principle's sake do that...

[Aganzir]

But Andsigil voted Sam.

Besides aren't you just happy that hopefully at least one Sil hero will now make it to the finals?

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

Besides aren't you just happy that hopefully at least one Sil hero will now make it to the finals?

If I were to choose a Sil hero I'd like to see in the finals, it would be Finrod or Earendil. Maybe even Cirdan. But I find Turin marginally less annoying than Sam (and the coin flip went his way, anyhow).

Hmm, perhaps this could've been split into two contests, one for the Third Age and one for the First (maybe even one for the Second). There wouldn't've been the issue of divided loyalties, then (nor some of the amusing banter, alas ).

[skip spence]

A rather lacklustre performance by Samwise, but take nothing against Túrin who came out firing on all cylinders when it mattered the most and made the upset happen. 10-6 it finished. The semifinals will begin tomorrow if I got more time on my hands than I did today. Maybe then Gandalf's hippie credentials and the contents of his pipe will be cleared up once and for all?

[mormegil]

You are all monsters! You eliminated the best character ever.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

Originally Posted by mormegil

You are all monsters! You eliminated the best character ever.

I've been called worse. And by my own mother.

[the phantom]

Beleg-Boromir-Gandalf-Turin

The final four are all awesome. A Boromir-Gandalf clash would be great, as we could argue who had the better approach to the Ring. But a Beleg-Turin deathmatch would be great as well- friends forced to do battle.

Or perhaps a cross-age championship? Silmarillion versus LotR? Fun, fun, fun.