Werewolf XXX - Tol-in-Elendili - The Isle of the Were-Faithfuls

[Macalaure]

Deadline

You have lynched the faithful who be short.

It was about time you got one of 'em.


edit: Yes, I'm letting Lalaiths vote retractions count.

[Mithalwen]

Is that a legal vote retraction ?

[Mithalwen]

Not that SPM isn't better qualified to launch his own appeal .....

[The Saucepan Man]

Actually, to be honest, I think that I was lynched ...

[Macalaure]

oh f...

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Don't feel bad, Macalaure, we all make mistakes. *Ruffles through pocket* Here, have a jellybaby.

[Mithalwen]

*wibble*

Jelly babies and the Divine Right of Mods will get you through...

[Macalaure]

Ever the days on Númenor were changeful and hard-fought in these times, but none the less the days that had just passed stood out. A whole of three people were leading the race and it was close. In the end, however, there was not the slightest doubt that the guy who be short was the one who should be lynched. The univocal will of the village dictated it, nothing else. Absolutely nothing.

“The choice has been made, the guy who be short.” declared Gil-Galad “Now forswear that phantom Eru, and his lackey Manwë, or face your death!”

“Why should I forswear Eru? I am no Faithful!” protested the guy who be short “Moreover, I have a feeling you are going to kill me anyway!”

“If you renounce Eru and Manwë and accept Melkor and Annatar as your gods, then your life will be spared.” he was assured by Kitanna “But you must choose now!”

“I love my life, and all Arda and Númenóre even as it is now,” the guy who be short then answered sadly “but if I must choose between Sauron and Manwë, then all else must come after. I will not bow unto Sauron, nor to his master!”

A spirit, grim but clean, shone in his eyes as he was grabbed by Durelin and Kath.

“What now shall we do with him? How do we want this Faithful to die?” asked the Saucepan Man, but nobody answered him and a silence befell all. Nobody had given this a thought until now.

Shyly, Thinlómien spoke up: “What about a catapult?”

“A catapult?” all asked disbelievingly.

“Why not hurl the guy who be short out of Númenor? Let him fly from the Land of the Star, just like his fellows – or almost.”

“That’s retarded” Nogrod judged.

“Well, I don’t see you coming up with anything.” Thinlómien said finally, and so it was decided.

The knowledge and craft of Númenor was still high in these days, so the catapult was built together in little time. Still, it had grown dark when they were finished and the guy who be short was placed in the machine. No star shone on the island in these moments, as if the Valar were turning their eyes away from this fell deed.


“Ready!... Steady!...”

“I can’t believe we’re doing this.” muttered Nogrod.

“Go!”


And in a beautifully high arc, which delighted his mathematical senses for the short time, the guy who be short flew from the Land of the Star - with no star to guide him. The guy who be short never again was seen among living Men, and his fate this tale does not tell.

“See! It worked! It worked! Let’s do it again!” said Thinlómien enthusiastically, “What about Mänwe?”

In exaltation over their success the Númenoreans cheered and went to Mänwe’s hut searching for him.

While the village was coming for him, Mänwe was a picture of misery: “Faithfuls! Faithfuls! They’re coming! They’re everywhere! I can’t take this pressure! Ahhh!”

“Mänwe, we have come to lynch you.” the Legate of Amon Lanc told him “Well, we didn’t exactly vote you... but we’re in a really good mood right now. You surely understand.”

“Lynch me? Ah! I’m no Faithful, Faithful, Faithful!”

“We know,” answered Hookbill, the Goomba “but, you know, you had your chances, and you failed us twice.”

Lamenting Mänwe was dragged up the hill and put into the catapult.


“Ready!... Steady!...”

“I still think it’s retarded.” it came over Nogrod’s lips.

“Go!”


But, oh! it did not work this time. The structure of the catapult failed and in a loud noise it crashed and drilled Mänwe straight into the ground. Sheepishly, Thinlómien looked around and reproachful her eyes were met.


“Fine, I still think it’s a good idea!”

*~*

The Dead:

Macalaure (mod) - brutally killed by Faithfuls in Night One
Garin (ordo) - decapitated with a scythe on Day One
Holbytlass (ordo) - committed suicide to revive Garin in Night Two
The Might (ordo) - committed suicide to help Holbytlass reviving Garin in Night Two
Roa_Aoife (Tar-Míriel / cobbler) - stabbed to death on Day Two
Rikae (High Priest of Annatar / seer) - killed and reformed into a ship by Faithfuls in Night Three
Glirdan (ordo) - another one who committed suicide to revive Garin
Brinniel (ordo) - executed on Day Three
Rune Son of Bjarne (ordo) - disassembled by the Faithfuls in Night Four
the guy who be short (were-faithful) - flew from the Land of the Star with no star to guide him on Day Four
Mänwe (ordo) - killed by a malfunctioning catapult on Day Four


The Living:

Durelin
Gil-Galad
Hookbill the Goomba
Kath
Kitanna
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
Nogrod
The Saucepan Man
Thinlómien

[Hookbill the Goomba]

Malfunctioning catapult? Brilliant idea Macalaure!

Well, that shut me up. All that suspecting Manwe for nothing. Poor guy. I'm still a tad confused at what went on in the voting, but at least we've got one of the faithfuls. The only problem is, the chances of anything coming from mars... I mean, the chances of us getting a faithful just slimmed. Hmm...

Well, the Saucepan man survived which is probably for the best given the record my hunches have.

[Macalaure]

This is the End of Day Four narration!!

Mänwe has been killed because he didn't vote two days!

Wait til deadline!!

[Macalaure]

Uneasy dreams haunted Nogrod this night. An evil foreshadow had taken possession of him. “Wake up, Nogrod” a voice said in his dream, but he withstood. Then the voiced called him again, and again, and finally Nogrod raised in his bed, drenched in sweat.

“Wake up, Nogrod, we would like to speak with you.” said a shade that stood next to his bed.

“Are you Faithfuls?” asked Nogrod, ever quick in thought “At my home? How dare you!”

“Calm, Nogrod, we only have come to bring you a gift.”

“A gift? I want no gift from Faithfuls!”

“But it is not from us. We are merely bearers of it. It comes from one more great than us.”

“I still don’t want it.”

“But you have to take it!”

“No!”

“Well, it is the will of Eru that you receive his gift...”

And with these words the three Faithfuls lifted their swords and violently they stuck them into Nogrod, who died a quick but painful death. Thus he received the Gift of Eru.

“...and the will of Eru may not be gainsaid.”

*~*

The Dead:

Macalaure (mod) - brutally killed by Faithfuls in Night One
Garin (ordo) - decapitated with a scythe on Day One
Holbytlass (ordo) - committed suicide to revive Garin in Night Two
The Might (ordo) - committed suicide to help Holbytlass reviving Garin in Night Two
Roa_Aoife (Tar-Míriel / cobbler) - stabbed to death on Day Two
Rikae (High Priest of Annatar / seer) - killed and reformed into a ship by Faithfuls in Night Three
Glirdan (ordo) - another one who committed suicide to revive Garin
Brinniel (ordo) - executed on Day Three
Rune Son of Bjarne (ordo) - disassembled by the Faithfuls in Night Four
the guy who be short (were-faithful) - flew from the Land of the Star with no star to guide him on Day Four
Mänwe (ordo) - killed by a malfunctioning catapult on Day Four
Nogrod (ordo) - received the Gift of Eru in Night Five


The Living:

Durelin
Gil-Galad
Hookbill the Goomba
Kath
Kitanna
Lalaith
Legate of Amon Lanc
Mithalwen
The Saucepan Man
Thinlómien

[Lalaith]

I'm delighted that one of my trio of suspects has bit the dust, even though it was a shame that the lynch was conducted through somewhat unorthodox means.

I am still, after yesterday's messy events, unshaken in my beliefs. I find Rah-rah ras-Saucie incredibly wolflike and Durelin also - I refer for reasons to my post 473 of yesterday. Added to which - Saucie's bare-faced deviousness of yesterday and Durelin's non-reading-of posts admission.
I'm sorry, missy, but there's only two WW games where I haven't at some point when I've had the time, read all posts closely. Once was when I was a wolf, when I knew everyone's identity, and just skimmed looking for stuff to frame people with, and once when I was a lover, when it was a similar scenario, my wolf-lover Ang told me everyone's identity. In all other games - as in this one - I was a clueless innocent, reading everything because I don't know who the culprits are and I'm desperate to know, combing the thread for clues. You're a smart girl, and if you're not reading posts properly there can be only one reason.

The fourth wolf I am less sure of, but I think it can be found among (in order of suspicion) Mith, Kitanna and Kath.
Mith - I don't mind her voting for me all the time, but aside from saying, on day one, that I was acting funny, she's never given a reason except she's always suspected me. Which is kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Plus she and Saucie should by rights have had a row by now and they haven't.

Kitanna - hmm, mixed feelings. Her post 471 seems to be a helpful villager and her reason for voting for me was so wolf-like it was almost innocent, if you get my drift.

Kath - well there is dodgy stuff about her (again refer to 473) but in her favour I think it was she who first pointed out Durelin's not-reading-posts thing.

I still think Lommy and Gil are innocent. In fact, Lommy, if you are a Faithful, frankly you deserve to win as far as I'm concerned, rarely have I seen such a convincing display of innocence. I am reasonably confident about Legate, and I am ambivalent about Hookbill.

Unless something very dramatic happens, call me Yusopov. Much as I enjoyed the little ding-dong with Saucie yesterday, any innocent analysing it should see how darned devious he was being. I will fight to get him lynched today.

[The Saucepan Man]

Well, I feel rather strange being here as, by rights, I should not be. Luckily we are in much better shape than we were (or would have been, but for the Grace of Mod ), but there is still much work to be done.

I see that Lalaith is jumping to unfortunate conclusions again.

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Much as I enjoyed the little ding-dong with Saucie yesterday, any innocent analysing it should see how darned devious he was being.

I was merely correcting your misquoting and misrepresentation of me, and, I might add, feeling better about my vote as I did so.

But, unlike you, I am not going to prejudge without looking at the evidence. And we have a lot more to go on now that we have nailed a Faithful. I am going to review yesterDay's votes, and then I am going to go back over the votes on previous Days to see who voted for TGWBS, who he voted for, and at what time. We should also look to see what he said about people and vice versa, and I hope to get to that too. I know that he said that he felt me to be most likely innocent, and that Manwe and Gil were his main stated suspects, but there are some who I can hardly recall him mentioning.

I should imagine that it is going to be a lot quieter around here without Nogrod. It's a shame that the Ranger didn't take a punt on leaving him unprotected the Night before, but I can understand why s/he didn't.

I'm off to look at the votes but, in the meantime, here they are:

Gil-Galad: ++TGWBS (TGWBS 1)
Lommy: ++Durelin (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1)
TGWBS: ++Gil-Galad (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1)
SpM: ++Lalaith (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 1)
Mithalwen: ++Lalaith (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 2)
Kitanna: ++Lalaith (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3)
Kath: ++SpM (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 1)
Hookbill: ++SpM (TGWBS 1, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 2)
Nogrod: ++TGWBS (TGWBS 2, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 2)
Lalaith: ++TGWBS (TGWBS 3, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 2)
Durelin: ++Legate (TGWBS 3, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 2, Legate 1)
Durelin: --Legate, ++SpM (TGWBS 3, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 3)
Lalaith: --TGWBS, ++SpM (TGWBS 2, Durelin 1, Gil-Galad 1, Lalaith 3, SpM 4)

Did not vote: Legate, Manwe

[The Saucepan Man]

Gil-Galad: Voted for TGWBS, apparently having been swayed by Nogrod’s case against him. Possibly a Faithful-on-Faithful vote but unlikely as there was a fair bit of focus on TGWBS at the time. Even more unlikely in light of TGWBS’ vote for him. Then again, Gil is a law unto himself when innocent and I reckon that he would be the same when guilty. Still no idea about him, but I am not currently inclined to vote for him.

Lommy: Voted for Durelin, having suspected her before and having felt that Nogrod brought up good points about her. As I said yesterDay, if Durelin is a Faithful then, in light of this vote, Lommy is most likely innocent. And since I believe Durelin to be a Faithful, I am feeling a lot more comfortable about Lommy.

Mithalwen: Voted for Lalaith on the basis of her ongoing suspicion. With a few exceptions, Mith has voted pretty consistently for Lalaith. It’s a characteristic Wolfish/Faithful voting pattern, although dangerous if the “suspect” is lynched and turns out innocent. For that reason, I somehow doubt that a Faithful Mith would have voted for an innocent Lalaith yesterDay, with suspicion gathering around Lal the way it was. And, although I still have serious reservations about Lalaith, I don't see it as a Faithful-on-Faithful vote either. Mith remains low in my suspicions.

Kitanna: Voted for Lalaith on the basis of her “gut feel“ and also, I think, because of Lalaith’s vote for Brinniel, having stated that she was not one of her top suspects. Depends whether Lalaith is a Faithful or not, really, as this does not look at all like a Faithful-on-Faithful vote to me. I have been unsure about Kitanna throughout, but I was somewhat comforted by her contributions yesterDay. The jury’s still out for me on Kitanna.

Kath: Voted for me on the basis that I claimed Durelin was defending me, when she thought that she was not, and so thought me to be twisting Durelin’s words. Actually, it was Nogrod who claimed that Durelin was defending me and, from what I saw, I agreed with him. So it looks to me like it was Kath who was misrepresenting the position. I had felt better about Kath yesterDay, but this vote tweaks my suspicion meter big time.

Hookbill: Voted for me, apparently on the basis of instinct, putting me on 2 votes to Lal’s 3. Claiming “instinct” seems to me to be a very convenient way of avoiding having to state any reasons (unless, of course, you are Valier and have a proven track record ). I know that I am innocent, so I find this vote to be distinctly suspicious. I was wary of Hookbill before and I am even more so now.

Lalaith: Voted for TGWBS, putting him on 3 votes, level with herself and one ahead of me, then retracted at the last moment to vote for me (which should have seen me done for). If she is a Faithful, this was a strange vote since I would have expected her to vote for me. That said, I do not discount the possibility that she thought TGWBS the more likely to be lynched, took the opportunity to gain some credit for helping to do so and then, when she saw the opportunity to save the both of them, took it. In any event, she knew that she had her retraction (although she left it fairly late). I still find her extremely suspicious, particularly for her behaviour yesterDay, but this vote has me wondering.

Durelin: Voted for Legate and then quickly retracted and voted for me. Have there ever been two more suspicious votes cast in such quick succession? This looks to me like she hastily decided to put in a safe vote, then promptly thought better and took the opportunity to try to get me lynched. To my mind, these votes pretty much confirm my suspicions of her.

Legate: Did not vote, which I don’t like at all, but he has explained it on the Admin thread.

Now back to look at the previous Day’s votes in light of TGWBS’s unmasking.

[Gil-Galad]

well my suspicions on TGWBS were right...


and now, my suspicons are still casted on SPM and Durelin now and with our list of known innocents all but depleted, this shall be a difficult day ahead of us...

[Durelin]

Well, regardless of the circumstances in which TGWBS was killed, that was quite lucky. Except that of the main lynch targets Sauce was the one I really thought was a wolf...and still do.

Lalaith - I am flattered that you have confidence in my intelligence, but regardless of how well I might use my brain, I often don't like to. I have a lazy streak a mile wide. And I think I'm best qualified to admit that. It's the truth. It's also the truth that I do not read all the posts in the RPGs I'm in, and considering RPing is pretty much my biggest passion...well, that should clue you in to my laziness.

Your only proof against the truth of my statement is based on your own person gaming habits, which have absolutely nothing to do with me.

It's pretty sad that the only things anyone's really used against me is: 1. I said "yay" 2. something about Sauce 3. An admittance to not reading all the posts in WW games.

We need to be careful, people! At seven against three if we start on another innocent-lynching streak we'll quickly be screwed.

I was leaning more towards your innocence, Lalaith, particularly since you have been going after SPM, who I think to be a wolf, but the way you jump on something so baseless as me saying that I don't read all the posts in the thread?

I went back to look to see if Kath had brought that up, and I saw nothing of the sort, so perhaps your admission that as an innocent you read the thread carefully is false, as well?

I just had a crazy idea about Gil: he and TGWBS had a nice little stand-off yesterDay, but I'm pretty sure it was the first time the two really even acknowledged each other much. Was it a *last minute* attempt to separate themselves, spurred by Nogrod's assertion of TGWBS's, along with that of Sauce and myself? And Gil even takes the time to come back and give a bit of reason to his vote, and address TGWBS briefly. Why the change in approach?

Something to consider.

Gil - Continued suspicion of me? Since when have you even mentioned me? Oh, and I'm afraid we are completely out of known innocents.

Kitanna is becoming a more interesting case to me. I don't think TGWBS even mentioned her, or she him, except I think he said something about her being quiet, but it not being her fault. She's been one of those suspected all along, but not really ones...though I guess pretty much everyone now falls into that category.

Well, I predict toDay will mostly consist of SPM's double and triple posting.

My main suspects: Sauce, Kitanna, Gil. I really hope we can hear more from Legate and Lommy.

[The Saucepan Man]

Day 1

TGWBS’s took the safe option and voted for Garin. No one voted for TGWBS. So that doesn’t tell us much.

Day 2

TGWBS voted for Brinniel, which doesn’t tell us much either.

Lommy voted early for TGWBS, having expressed pretty strong suspicion of him. Unlikely to have been a vote for a fellow Faithful, so this too makes me feel better about her. She was the only villager to vote for TGWBS that Day.

Day 3

TGWBS voted again for Brinniel, but then retracted and cast his vote for Manwe. He was pretty consistent in voting for innocents, which leads me to think slightly more favourably of Gil-Galad.

No one voted for TGWBS.

Day 4, I have dealt with above.

Well, that wasn’t particularly helpful, I am afraid. Looking back again, however, I am reminded of Durelin’s early vote on Day 1 for Manwe, who presented himself as a rather obvious target in the opening stages, but who we now know was innocent. It looks to me like Durelin who was the one “testing the water” for his possible lynching. She later retracted and voted for Garin when he presented himself an even better target.

[Durelin]

I retracted my vote to save the Seer, Sauce. I had no way of knowing that everyone would come out of the woodwork at the last minute, and that a switch to Garin specifically would prove unnecessary.

The way you're twisting everything about me is pretty pathetic. Maybe you're telling the truth about Lalaith, and she is really your comrade. You two seem to be manipulating in the same way.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Durelin

I just had a crazy idea about Gil: he and TGWBS had a nice little stand-off yesterDay, but I'm pretty sure it was the first time the two really even acknowledged each other much.

Wrong, actually. I am currently looking at what people have said about TGWBS and would point out that he was on Gil's suspect list throughout - see posts #59 and #307.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Well, I predict toDay will mostly consist of SPM's double and triple posting.

I may not have as much time (RL) tomorrow as I do now, as I will be at work. So I am taking the opportunity to look into some of the leads that TGWBS's death has given us. Perhaps you would have me not show up at all and make all this much easier for you ...

Originally Posted by Durelin

Maybe you're telling the truth about Lalaith, and she is really your comrade.

Is that the sound of straws been clutched, I hear?

[The Saucepan Man]

I have been reviewing the thread to see what people’s attitudes were to TGWBS and what his attitude was to everyone still here. Here’s a “rough and ready” list:

Durelin: TGWBS claimed throughout to find find her neutral. She has never expressed more than mild suspicion of him.

Gil-Galad: TGWBS suspected him yesterDay. TGWBS was on Gil’s list of suspects from the start. They voted for each other yesterDay.

Hookbill the Goomba: TGWBS expressed mild suspicion of him fairly late on. I don’t think that Hookbill has mentioned him once.

Kath: TGWBS said that he was slightly troubled by her. On Day 3, she found him “unbelievably suspicious” but thought this might be down to different playing style and history, from which she concluded that she had no idea about him.

Kitanna: TGWBS said that he was leaning to her innocence. I‘m not sure that she has mentioned him.

Lalaith: TGWBS claimed to suspect her early on, analysed her on Day 2, and then said that she did not look suspicious to him. He did, however, express suspicion of her yesterDay. She has been moderately suspicious of him for a while, and voted for him yesterDay, before switching to me.

Legate of Amon Lanc: TGWBS claimed to be uneasy about him. Legate seems to have been neutral about him.

Mithalwen: TGWBS expressed strong suspicion of her early on, but then eased off from about Day 2, saying that he thought her more likely innocent. She has remained neutral about him, saying little one way or the other.

The Saucepan Man: I was suspicious of TGWBS from Day 2. TGWBS said that he thought me probably innocent.

Thinlómien: TGWBS claimed to suspect her on Day 2, seemingly in response to her case against him, but then seems to have eased off. She strongly suspected TGWBS from Day 2, and voted for him on Day 2.

It is difficult to know exactly how TGWBS would have chosen to react to his fellow Faithfuls, or they to him. I am, however, interested in those about whom he said very little, and vice versa, namely:

Durelin
Hookbill
Kitanna
Legate

However, I strongly doubt that he would have affected the same attitude to all of his comrades. Which leads me to believe that there is probably only one Faithful on that list. There might be two, but I think that he would have been more careful than that.

I am curious about Kath’s view on him. I think it was Lalaith who picked her up yesterDay on it, and she did explain it. But I don’t like the way she seems to have found him very suspicious, yet gave herself an excuse not to vote for him.

TGWBS appears to have expressed no strong suspicions of anyone, of those still living, save for Gil-Galad. But I find their approach to each other yesterDay most unlikely to have been the behaviour of two Faithfuls.

His expressed opinons changed most with regard to Lalaith and Lommy and, to a lesser extent, Mithalwen. It is quite possible that he would have adapted his approach to his fellow Faithfuls as game progressed and, of these I find Lalaith the most suspicious. Lommy’s consistent suspicion of him, and her Day 2 vote for him, makes me think it unlikely that she is a Faithful. I am somewhat wary of the fact that Mithalwen never really expressed much of an opinion about him but I somehow doubt that he would so firmly have adopted a belief in the innocence of a fellow Faithful so early on. From my perspective, his stated belief in my own innocence also leads me to think that.

So, based on my analyses so far, here are my current thoughts:

Suspicious
Durelin
Lalaith
Hookbill

Somewhat suspicious
Kath
Kitanna
Legate

Inclined to think innocent
Mithalwen
Lommy
Gil-Galad

And now I must sleep …

[Gil-Galad]

I must be inclined to look at those who showed sympathy or acceptance with TGWBS, mainly because it is not wise for faithfuls to sacrifice one of there own, too much risk in it because of one goes then there a chacne of losing another and going downhill.

this late in the game it is not wise to sacrifce their own faithfuls because the list is dwindling and the faithfuls will have greater chances of being lynched out, i would have to agree with SPM's list, but here is my suspicous

Durelin
Hookbill
SPM

SPm wil lalways be on my suspicous, though he is starting to lean off of it... but i hate being fooled by big words...

[Lalaith]

Very quick one, as I won't be back til much later in the day...

Villagers, if I'm right about who the wolves are, we really are in trouble.
These Faithfuls are also among the most frequent and vocal posters - most of the innocents are quiet ones. I have a horrible feeling of deja vu, vis a vis duelling wizards and the wolf of the Rohirrim. Beware. Please post and participate, innocents.

[Thinlómien]

I'm here and I'm talking and the first think I've got to say is that I absolutely love yesterDay's narration!

~*~

SPM has to be a faithful. I think we'd better re-lynch him. I don't have the time right now to make a well-constructed case against him, but there are some points I wish to bring up.

Anyone else than a faithful would not say this:

Originally Posted by Sauce

I am certain that either Lalaith or Lommy is a Faithful and, since they have both been defending each other every so often, I wonder whether they both might be.

Any innocent person would seriously reconsider before posting this or the other similar remarks SPM has made about me and Lalaith. An innocent wouldn't maybe find that suspicious, or dare to point that out. Because there are still two gifteds in the game and it's a fact that they know each others' identity. An ordo would be careful to accuse any two people with a seeming "bond" between them. A gifted would be more careful too: he could guess that such attack might reveal his role, and I don't think SPM would be that careless as a gifted. I wouldn't post this if I thought there was any real considerable possibility of SPM anything else than a deceitful elf-lover. (If we lynch him or and he turns out to be one of the remaining gifteds - which I very much doubt - I think you can strangle me for revealing him, and I deserve it. )

The whole game SPM has been making things look more sinister than they are and twisting words. Remember what he said about Nogrod and Roa on Day1. Besides I have the impression that people have to correct his statements about their opinions all the time.

TGWBS's and Saucepan's relation to each other (what Nogrod spoke about yesterday) and also their comments about each other make him look quite faithfulish too.

Also, Saucepan's sudden fierce attack against Lalaith (who I think innocent) kind of creeps me out.

I don't like SPM's continuous "the wolves might be flying under the radar" -claim. While this might be true, it's a very good means of getting attention from vocal players, mainly himself.

I personally don't think Gil's a faithful (wouldn't he show more interest in the game if he had a special role?) and his confused remark about Glirdy being killed by the wolves speaks for his innocence, as he doesn't strike me as the wolf who plays a confused villager -type.

I'm not very suspicious of Hookbill either. While there are suspicious things in his behaviour, I'd rather say they are beacuse of his relative newbieness and his personal style, not because he's a faithful. He seems genuine.

Legate slipping under the radar? There you might have a point, but making this great fuss about slip-under-the-radarers because (from my point of view) one mediocrely suspicious villager is very faithful-ish. By the way I must admit I have not managed to form a proper picture of Legate, Kath, Mith or Kitanna this far, just a vague impression whether they're more innocent or suspicious, and it troubles me since at least one of them is most probably a wolf.

~*~

Durelin seemed quite genuine late yesterDay... I'm not sure if I suspect her that much anymore... also, the spat between her and SPM (who I believe to be a faithful) maybe speaks for her innocence... I don't know...

I still think Lalaith innocent. She has good points and feels genuine. Also the first day when she voted Holby because she thought she was the cobbler sending signs to the faithfuls... I don't think a faithful would have said that. When fabricating such accusation, a thought "what if she really is?" must cross the faithful's mind and thus I think a faithful wouldn't say that...

~*~

I think I'm going to check TGWBS's relations to other people myself, since I don't trust Sauce at all...

I'm also going to try to form a clear picture of the horde of unsures.

[Mithalwen]

I am here ... reading through..though starting from scratch sinceI was clearly so wrong about TGWBS

3 wolves, 2 gifted, 5 ordos...

I have to say I am suspicious of Lalaith's theory that the quiet are innocent. Can't say that I don't want to have a close look at the Legate for a start, and you can never discount Kath and Kitanna....and Gil is so hard to pin down. But as I pointed out days ago we do not have the luxury of lynching for peace of mind

[Thinlómien]

Please correct if I'm wrong somewhere, I might have missed something.....

Kath
TGWBS is worried by her silence on Day1.
Kath didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day2.
Kath didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS found her slightly suspicious on Day3.
Kath wasn't sure what to think of him on Day3.
TGWBS didn't have an opinion about her on Day4.
Kath was (very) slightly suspicious of him on Day4.
Could be in some sinister union based on this. I can well imagine wolves behaving this way towards each other.

SPM
TGWBS thought him innocent on Day1.
Sauce didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS thought him innocent on Day2
Sauce didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS was inclined to think him innocent on Day3.
Sauce was concerned about him on Day3.
TGWBS suspected him slightly, but was inclined to think him innocent on Day4.
Sauce had some suspicion of him on Day4.
Now this looks quite bad. Why was TGWBS so inclined to trust him? The mutual "friendship" on days 1 and 2 and Sauce distancing himself from him after he became generally suspected look quite faithfulish.

Mith
TGWBS suspected her on Day1.
Mith didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect her much on Day2.
Mith didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS trusted her on Day3.
Mith was inclined to trust him on Day3.
TGWBS was inclined to think her innocent on Day4.
Mith thought him innocent on Day4.
Here we see a mutual trust. I'm not sure what to make of it. I don't like TGWBS's suspicion slowly turning to trust (looks a bit planned), but on the other hand, I wonder if faithfuls would form an alliance like this at this phase of the game...

Gil
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day1.
Gil had a hunch about TGWBs being a faithful on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day2.
Gil didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS didn't want him to fly under the radar on Day3.
Gil suspected him on Day3.
TGWBS thought him dangerous and faithful-ish and voted him on Day4.
Gil suspected and voted him on Day4.
I'm ready to exonerate Gil for this. In my opinion that continuous suspicion and the votes casted for each other clearly tell these two were in no union.

Lommy
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day1.
Lommy didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS suspected (and disagreed with her) on Day2.
Lommy disagreed with him, suspected him strongly and voted him on Day2.
TGWBS found her slightly suspicious on Day3.
Lommy suspected him on Day3.
TGWBS suspected her slightly on Day4.
Lommy suspected him (though slightly less than before) on Day4.
Well obviously I can't comment on this.

Durelin
TGWBS questioned her on Day1.
Durelin didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day2.
Durelin didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS had no idea/found her neutral about her on Day3.
Durelin found and yet didn't find him suspicious the same time on Day3.
TGWBS didn't have an opinion about her on Day4.
Durelin found him unnerving on Day4.
Now this could be either way. Wolves could very well be like this towards each other, but so could a wolf and an innocent. Doesn't tell much.

Hookbill
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day1.
Hookbill didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day2. Hookbill didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS had no idea about him on Day3.
Hookbill didn't suspect him on Day3.
TGWBS didn't find him very suspicious on Day4.
Hookbill didn't suspect him on Day4.
These could be fellow wolves very well indeed. I'm not sure if Hookbill ever even mentioned TGWBS in his posts...

Lalaith
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day1.
Lalaith didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS was inclined to think her innocent on Day2.
Lalaith didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS had no idea about her on Day3.
Lalaith was slightly suspicious of him and wasn't sure what to think of him on Day3.
TGWBS suspected her quite strongly on Day4.
Lalaith was uneasy about him and voted him (though retracted) on Day4.
The funny thing here is that they trust, are unsure and suspect each other the same days... Not sure what to make of it.

Legate
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day1.
Legate didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect him on Day2.
Legate didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS had no idea about him on Day3.
Legate thinks he seems "okay" on Day3.
TGWBS is uneasy about him on Day4.
Legate didn't suspect him on Day4.
Looks quite sinister. They avoided taking a stance towards each other. Possibly fellows...

Kitanna
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day1.
Kitanna didn't suspect him on Day1.
TGWBS didn't suspect her on Day2.
Kitanna didn't suspect him on Day2.
TGWBS had no idea about her on Day3.
Kitanna didn't suspect him on Day3.
TGWBS was leaning to think her innocent on Day4.
Kitanna didn't suspect him on Day4.
Could be sinister, could be not. Difficult to say.

Needless to say, I'm quite disappointed with the whole thing. I didn't find very much out by wasting some time on this. I became more assured about SPM's guilt and Gil's innocence. But that's it, basicly.

I have to go and vote soon (should I stop wwing 'til I have a net access since this irritates me so?) and I don't see myself voting anyone else than SPM who ought to be dead already.

[Thinlómien]

Mith certainly said she thinks TGWBS innocent yet SPM writes:

She [Mith] has remained neutral about him [TGWBS], saying little one way or the other.

A wolf covering a fellow? Or a wolf trying to confuse the villagers? Or a wolf trying to drag an innocent to the grave with him? Or a wolf who tried to make an honest analysis, but made a mistake?

[Thinlómien]

++THE SAUCEPAN MAN

For reasons previously stated.

I'll be back toMorrow, if I'm still alive.

[The Saucepan Man]

Lommy, I am reasonably confident in your innocence but, if you are, then your faulty reasoning is highly dangerous. Of course, if you are not, then getting me lynched would be rather convenient for you after the events of yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Any innocent person would seriously reconsider before posting this or the other similar remarks SPM has made about me and Lalaith. An innocent wouldn't maybe find that suspicious, or dare to point that out. Because there are still two gifteds in the game and it's a fact that they know each others' identity.

I am not the only one to have pointed out such connections. Our known innocent did so too. To my mind, your mutual defences of each other seemed, and still seem, far too obvious for you to be Gifteds (and I now think them far too obvious for you to be fellow Faithfuls). In any event, any Faithful worth their salt would have picked up on it, so I saw no harm in noting it, as something which might be significant.

Originally Posted by Lommy

The whole game SPM has been making things look more sinister than they are and twisting words. Remember what he said about Nogrod and Roa on Day1. Besides I have the impression that people have to correct his statements about their opinions all the time.

Perhaps you would point out where I have done this. My suspicions of Nogrod and Roa were on Day 1, for goodness sake, and I would note that I was right to be concerned about Roa. Other than Manwe, I think that I was the only one to be wary of her. And the only villagers who have sought to correct my statements, as far as I can recall, are Lalaith and Kath. As I think I have shown, it is they who have been either mistaking or misrepresenting my opinions.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I don't like SPM's continuous "the wolves might be flying under the radar" -claim. While this might be true, it's a very good means of getting attention from vocal players, mainly himself.

Actually, my attention has largely been focussed on the more vocal players throughout. YesterDay, I noted in response to Nogrod that it would probably be too risky to start going after the quiet ones. However, I would not be at all surprised if there turned out to be at least one quiet Faithful. Failing to keep that at the back of one’s mind could be fatal, even if we focus on the louder ones first.

And, speaking of the loud ones, I think that you are wrong to lessen your suspicions of Durelin.

++DURELIN

Not sure whether I’ll be around much more toDay, but I hope to be here at the end.

Btw, Lommy, I did not see where Mith said that she thought TGWBS innocent but, from what she has said toDay, it looks like you’re right. It does not, however, really change my opinion of her.

[Gil-Galad]

COngrats SPm, you have brought me upon your bandwagon...

++Durelin

my reasons were stated before

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, considering what happened around here the Day before, I started to read through the thread yet again, looking if together with the revelation of tgwbs it makes some trace we can use.

Reading tgwbs's posts, he seems to be very complex. He behaves more or less the same way to everyone - meaning there are no persons (from us living) he would have any special attitude to. Actually, he acts much like an innocent (at least in the early days). His main confusing act was, really it seems, the famous shortlist concept, and that he accepted Roa dead right when he learned the truth. However, in the latter days, he started to base many things on Nogrod. The main thing (a "matematic pattern" in him, perhaps?) he does, seems to be point one vote right in the start - a safe vote! - but still then (or before, or around, or whatever) sparkling little hints of suspicion on others. There do not seem to be any particular objects for him - he suspected people who were suspected by others, or merely hinted something. However, all his votes were votes for someone who hasn't been voted yet at the Day (speaking about the first votes, not retractions). He was also a bandwaggon-creator twice - see: his 1st Day vote was Garin, who ended up lynched. His 3rd Day vote was Brinniel, who ended up lynched, and he was so bold to retract his own vote yet. On Day 2, he stayed with trying to defend Roa (an ally). On Day 4, Nogrod cast suspicion on him, so he couldn't do much - but was trying to accuse Gil-Galad.

From this I would conclude Gil-Galad probably being not in league with him, since if tgwbs played still the same way all the days, then this could have been supposed as a start of a bandwaggon against Gil-Galad.

The people whom tgwbs seemed to support the most were SpM and Mithalwen, namely, these posts seem most significant to me:

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Thus far I have believed SpM to be innocent, but his continued life makes me doubt him a little.

The problem is that this always happens when SpM lives late into a game. People think that he must be a wolf, because otherwise the wolves would see him as a threat and kill him off.
However, the wolves know people will think this, so they may leave him alive in order to let him garner votes.
Or perhaps they leave him because they know that he is influential, but his suspicions are all wrong and so misleading the village.

This could be half a suspicion and half a defense, but it could be also a "defense with backdoor", if you catch my meaning. If SpM indeed were a Faithful, and were under strong suspicion, this might have served tgwbs as defense.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

Mith - I appreciate the trust, but I must say you confuse me completely. I have gone from strongly suspecting you to strongly believing in your innocence and back again. You feel innocent to me - you act as though you have the village's interests at heart.

Mithalwen stood behind tgwbs in the Roa-issue, and tgwbs had very changing opinions on her (or at least he says so). If Mithalwen were a Faithful, this might also serve as backdoor, although tgwbs is a little bit more positive here than above. It is however true that Mith was not under such suspicion as SpM at that moment, so no big suspicion was needed, if they were allies.

That is what I had in my mind now, I'm leaving now for a little time, but seeing there is not much activity today, hopefully I won't miss much.

[Durelin]

Lalaith - While I agree that the number of quiet members of this village is undoubtedly bad for it, I do not like that you are so quick to assume that the quiet ones are innocent. I know you are simply suggesting, but you're giving me the feeling that you very much want the focus on the *loud ones*; you know that the loud ones are easier to get lynched because they are such a presence. As long as the loud ones aren't overly influential.

Though I agree at least one loud one is a wolf...

Gil - What reasons? I didn't vote for TGWBS yesterDay? Yeah, me and...how many others?

SPM - I'm really rather disappointed your reasons for suspecting me seem largely based on the fact that TGWBS expressed neutral feelings on me, and I did not express much suspicion of him...which are facts true about a number of people.

I also get the feeling your "oh, Lommy, I think your innocent...please don't lynch me" is a sorry act.

++Saucepan Man

Unless something drastic happens, my vote will stay, though I will be back later, though unfortunately probably not until just before the deadline.

I've found Legate's silence to be disconcerting, but his recent post does not set off any immediate alarms. I find Hookbill's continued "safe-distance" sort of stance even more disconcerting. And where's Kitanna and Kath? Though they never post much, they are normally fairly vocal. This is not turning out well...if only the wolves show up to vote, we are in bad shape.

[Mithalwen]

I am back...... I must say that I didn't have any particular feeling about TGWBS - I suppose I was inclined to trust himbecasue he seemed genuinely persuaded of my innocence - which from my point of view made him seem like a bona fide ordo since but clearly he was a wolf acting suspicious..... I'm a mug....

but since he was up against two people I strongly suspected (and who seemed might get lynched) I had no intention of changing my vote ot him and so didn't examine closer....

[Kath]

And where's Kitanna and Kath? Though they never post much, they are normally fairly vocal.

I'm sorry. The trials of yesterday (RL) have continued as well as some extra ones from toDay and I've only just got back. But not that much seems to have gone on toDay as it is.

From what I've read I actually think Lommy's analysis is pretty good. What's she has come up with generally agrees with my own thoughts (which probably means she's a wolf and she has a whole bunch of innocents listed as suspicious, though to my mind she looks innocent still).

I was suspicious of Legate a couple of Days ago and have seen little from him since, still less that would make me change my mind.

Sauce I still find suspicious. He quibbles over exactly who said what too much for my liking and he really went for it against Lalaith yesterDay, which threw me slightly. Innocents in general (unless they're Farael) always have some measure of unsurety in their posts, which he didn't seem to.

Hookbill I'm still not entirely sure on. I thought him suspicious the other Day and it is entirely possible that one of the wolves is a quiet person. Those who I would consider truly quiet are Hookbill and Gil, and since I think Gil innocent it does, to me, add credence to the idea that Hookbill could be a wolf.

Then there's Durelin. There have been times when I've been quite suspicious of her, yet her most recent posts have seemed very innocent and helpful. Her most recent one especially. I think I may have changed my mind on her.

I won't vote now as I will be around probably until the deadline for once. But at the moment I'm leaning towards voting Sauce, and if not him then Hookbill.

[Lalaith]

Lommy, I'd disagree slightly with this assessment;

Lalaith was slightly suspicious of him and wasn't sure what to think of him on Day3. TGWBS suspected her quite strongly on Day4.
Lalaith was uneasy about him and voted him (though retracted) on Day4.

Guy was in my top four suspects on both Day 3 & 4. By day four I was a lot more than uneasy. In fact, the reason I was torn, as I said before I voted, between him and Saucie is that I felt that both were probably wolves so I didn't mind which one of them got lynched.
Nothing of course is certain in Werewolf and it may be that I am being an unusually misguided and pig-headed innocent. But I remain convinced, despite the mutual voting today, that both Durelin and Saucie are wolves, and, knowing one of them would probably be lynched, the other is hoping to gain kudos for helping the task along.
I still have a tiny doubt about Durelin but very little about Saucie.
++SAUCEPANMAN

[Kitanna]

I just wrote out somethings and the computer I'm on decided to delete it. And also since I'm away from home I have limited access.

But I've been looking at SpM and Durelin as best I can. I've read the cases against them and I'd say Durelin looks far more innocent than SpM. But I haven't looked at either hard enough to truly vote for either. I realize I should vote for one or the other because one is most likely a faithful, but I'm held back. I haven't given enough attention to either to feel comfortable voting for them.
But I'm going to look back and perhaps change my mind. If I run out of time or I turn up nothing I will vote for one of my suspects from yesterday.

[Mithalwen]

So 3votes for Mr Teflon and 2 forDurelin....

Hmm

[Kitanna]

Something just caught my eye and I see Durelin also noticed it. Gil has been suspecting tgwbs and SpM all along. If SpM bites it today and is a faithful I think a close look at Gil is needed. I'm not sure his suspicious are just dumbluck. Howver this depends on the guilt or innocence of SpM.

So looking mostly at posts from today (and a few from late yesterday) I think Durelin may well be innocent. I believe if SpM is guilty, than Durelin is probably innocent (and vice versa). I don't want to see Durelin lynched. Her posts today cry innocence to me. I could be reading them horribly wrong.

Regardless of who is lynched today I think a close look should be taken at Gil. I have lessened my suspcions of my other four and moved Gil up.
He is almost always quiet and keeps his posts short. But he was right in his "hunch" about tgwbs. He has suspected and voted for SpM and now he votes for Durelin. If either one of them turns out to be a faithful (and I'm sure one will be) I'd say Gil's hunches may be more than they seem.

I'd like to vote for Gil, Hookbill, or to a way lesser extent Lalaith (I've moved her down due to my suspcions of Gil). But I will hold off my voting for a little while (probably about 10 minutes) just to see what happens.

[Lalaith]

Hang on a minute Kitanna. You're sure either Saucie or Durelin will turn out to be a faithful, you think Durelin's posts cry out innocence, (so therefore one must infer you think Sauce a faithful) but then you want to vote for either Gil, Hookbill or perhaps me?

[Lalaith]

I mean, by all means vote where you wish to, but I just thought this needed explaining.

[Kitanna]

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Hang on a minute Kitanna. You're sure either Saucie or Durelin will turn out to be a faithful, you think Durelin's posts cry out innocence, (so therefore one must infer you think Sauce a faithful) but then you want to vote for either Gil, Hookbill or perhaps me?

I don't feel I have a strong case against SpM or I'd vote for him. I know that probably sounds stupid or ridiculous, but I'd rather vote for someone I have a case against and not just some gut feeling. Because in the end all I have against (or for) either SpM or Durelin is a gut feeling.