Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Diamond18]

In the dark of the cold, cold night two figures crept through the cold, nighty darkness with murder in their not-so-lonely-hearts. They arrived at Aganzir’s door, only to be driven away by one who was intent on her protection.

Meanwhile, elsewhere, Macalaure was not so lucky. When the bells tolled, they tolled for him. He was found the next morning, suffocated with a pillow, and while the Lonely Hearts were not happy to see another one bite the dust, none were especially devastated by his death. If you know what I mean.

Day 4 dawns. Discuss amongst yourselves.

The Living Lonely Hearts Club:

Groin
Aganzir
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Hearts Which Have Stopped Beating:

Diamond (Lonely Heart)
Lommy (Lonely Heart)
Legate (Lonely Heart)
Lalaith (Lonely Heart)
Eönwë (Lonely Heart)
Kitanna (Lonely Heart)
Rikae (Lonely Heart)
Macalaure (Lonely Heart)

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Miss Di, Re: Mac

When the bells tolled, they tolled for him. He was found the next morning, suffocated with a pillow, and while the Lonely Hearts were not happy to see another one bite the dust, none were especially devastated by his death. If you know what I mean.

Just wanted to say that SO much about this narration cracked me up. Job well done yet again, love. Now get some sleep.



Alternatively, I'm loving, loving, LOVING our Ranger right about now. Two successful saves in a row. Wow. Kudos.



I need to do some reading to catch up on things. I'll probably come up with a handy dandy vote tally sometime soon, but I'm editing a paper for a friend and promised I'd get it to her ASAP, so I'll be back the first chance I get.

Hope everyone's Halloween/just plain Friday night festivities were enjoyable.

~~Sally~~


P.S. I'll also give my promised explanation as to why I voted for the ever-loveable Rikae when I return, in case anyone was wondering what happened to it.


ETA: By the way, random internet malfunction about half an hour ago, so if I don't return for a long while, that'd be why. Just so you know I didn't go submarine on you (again....ahem)

[Brinniel]

Ugh, now I feel bad about Rikae. But at the time her intentions didn't at all look good.

Meanwhile, our Ranger continues to do an excellent job at protecting (that, or the lovers are being ever so predictable). We're doing an awful job at catching the baddies, but at least the Ranger is buying us some time (at least if those protected aren't actually lovers).

So why kill Mac? Is it because of what he said about Rikae? Or were the lovers trying to set up Nogrod?

[Gwathagor]

Nice going, Ranger. Quality work.

Well, Nogrod is still alive. That is interesting, given how much was made of his impending death yesterDay. Evidently the lover-teams figured that if they didn't kill him in the Night, we'd find him suspicious enough to do the job ourselves. The possibility that Nogrod is a wolf (I use the word in the technical sense of "guilty party") seems lessened by the minimal degree to which he used his unique position yesterDay as a basis for persuasion or authority. He seemed, to me, to be genuinely resigned to his fate. Maybe what happened is that each lover-pair assumed the opposing pair would kill Nogrod, with the result that neither did?

ToDay I'd like to examine some of our less-noticed players - people like Shasta, McCaber, and Greenie. I'm way to tired to do it right now, but that's my goal anyway. We'll see.


EDIT: Crossed with Brinniel

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

So why kill Mac? Is it because of what he said about Rikae? Or were the lovers trying to set up Nogrod?

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

Woooow. Gwath's got himself a TARDIS. The time of his post is 1:59am. It's only 1:25.


(Yes, loves, I know it's the time change, but it still took me a minute. Off to do work now, but I figured you could all get a good laugh from my randomness)


And I thought much the same thing. I'll get into it more when I talk about Rikae later, but I assumed that the lovers may have thought Mac and Rikae were onto something so they decided to tie up the loose end, as it were. (No offense the fine gent in question, of course)

[Brinniel]

A vote count:

Mac: ++Eomer (Eomer 1)
Groin: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Greenie (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 1, Greenie 1)
Aganzir: ++Gollum (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1)
Shasta: ++McCaber (Eomer 1, Rikae 1, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Gollum: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 2, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Nogrod: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 3, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 4, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1)
McCaber: ++Mac (Eomer 1, Rikae 4, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Sally: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 5, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Brinn: ++Rikae (Eomer 1, Rikae 6, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Shasta (Eomer 1, Rikae 6, Gollum 2, Greenie 1, McCaber 1, Mac 1, Shasta 1)

Did not vote: Greenie

[Gollum the Great]

Now we are what, -7 +12??? We're doing pretty bad. And it appears we have 2 lover pairs. Today we'd better vote right.

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

Today we'd better vote right.

Perhaps I should say I should vote right.

[Brinniel]

The bad news: It looks like at least 1/3 of us have evil intentions.

The good news: Our pairs of lovers don't know each other plus they aren't on the same teams. The fact that they aren't all working together, but at least two teams working against each other can help us. Also, while we keep losing innocents, at least the odds of catching a lover becomes greater. Lastly, we lynch one lover, we kill their partner. That's one team down.

Right now I think we need to start taking a better look at these quieter players. Because so far we've been lynch loud players and they've all turned out innocent. That's not saying that a lover isn't a loud player, but I'm quite sure a lover is hiding somewhere among the quiet ones.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

Good point. Considering Nogrod's willingness to get Mac lynched, Mac looked to be in trouble today. But what was this secret? It baffled me at the time and I still can't guess.

Here it is:

"Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it." -- Rikae

Is she speaking about a villain using, to her mind, unfair tactics? Why then would she not just come out and say it? I was thinking that she was simply trying to convince Mac of her innocence, but why then would something need to "be done about it"?



Aganzir protected, eh? Whatever does this mean. I'll be thinking about this today.

As for the Rikae lynch, I'd normally say the bandwagon looked suspicious, because one after another voters jumped on her, but I have to admit she really did look suspicious.

[Aganzir]

Thanks Ranger (or whatever you're called here). Love you, will you marry me?

I'm terribly displeased with Rikae's death.

I still want to lynch Gollum. More on that later.

I slept over so now I'm in a terrible hurry and have no time to post. I'll be back in the evening.

edit: xed with Eomer

[Nogrod]

Guite a feat, ranger!!!

Sadly you seem to be the only one here up to her/his tasks...


Also I almost decided not to open the computer and check the situation as I was so sure about my death - I thought I could check it in the evening as well. Luckily I decided otherwise in the end.

And this really poses some questions.

Okay, it is possible the lovers who were after me the Night before just decided to have fun with me as they were so confident about their status or just to be sporty; or then I'm so misguided with my suspicions - which kind of looks to be true - that they thought I might help them with my stupid ideas... Or is there something like a limitation system to their kills?

That would sound unbelievable as the whole idea of just two pairs of lovers looks unbelievable. Like I said yesterDay I just can't bring myself to believe we only have two pairs here: 2:18 would be just too tough and unfair for them. I mean last time we had a similar-sized village and there were four pairs all having their own kills...

Which brings me to the possibility I entertained yesterDay of there being four pairs but only two of them getting to make a kill at Night. Di may randomise it who gets to make a kill or they take turns or something...

That would explain why I am still living as those who tried to go for me the Night before were not allowed a kill last Night?


About lovers going for Aganzir and Mac I'd say they look like someone has been after a presumed rival baddie. And that's naturally what the lovers need to do now. With the numbers of innocents plunging down the other teams are becoming their most immediate threat.

I'll be back later, hopefully with some more concrete thoughts.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Nice work, Ranger. Seriously. I'm impressed, and growing to be more and more amused.

Less amusing is the fact that I would have probably concentrated on Mac today, and the 'wolves' took him away. Why are the 'wolves' killing off our lynch-fodder?

That's what's confusing me about this game- the Lovers are picking villagers who the village is likely to kill anyway. If they want to massacre us simply by numbers, why aren't they picking quiet unobtrusive villagers and letting us lynch our own loudmouths?

Unless this has to do with the growing threat of silent villagers. We have been saying that maybe it's best to lynch the quiet ones, so the Lovers are trying to take away easy targets from us to makes us more gullible?

I really have no idea.

PS- daylight saving's time makes me happy. My body says it's 9am. My clock says it's 8am. Woot.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Good point. Considering Nogrod's willingness to get Mac lynched, Mac looked to be in trouble today. But what was this secret? It baffled me at the time and I still can't guess.

Here it is:

"Go look over the day's posts. There is something someone said earlier which explains why I've been saying some of the admittedly odd things I have. When you find it (as I'm sure you can) tell me what, in your opinion, should be done about it." -- Rikae

Is she speaking about a villain using, to her mind, unfair tactics? Why then would she not just come out and say it? I was thinking that she was simply trying to convince Mac of her innocence, but why then would something need to "be done about it"?

She made the first mention of it very early on in Day 3.

Originally Posted by Rikae

We seem to have a smart ranger. I wonder if the ranger noticed what I noticed today. I certainly hope so.

This was only the tenth post of Day 3, so whatever she noticed has to occur in the nine prior posts. This narrows it down, but I still don't have any ideas. Who knows, maybe she was bluffing?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ah, yes Gwath, I see it now. And look at Rikae's posts beginning #409. That thing about Aganzir being innocent. It's all very confusing, since Rikae seemed to be ordinary.

Is it possible Rikae was the Seer's lover?

We all suppose there's hidden stuff in this game. Why not something like this? Rikae's behaviour was too odd to be just ordinary. That might mean that there's a Guardian lover too. But no, because the supposed lover didn't die with Rikae.

Blah. Sorry. I'll leave it in the post, though. Maybe someone else can see a possibility from that silly idea.

[A Little Green]

Phew, I'm back. Like I already said yesterDay, I'm really sorry for my total lack of participation.

Originally Posted by Nog

Winning the foul way is not winning. This game is about speaking and trying to decipher what others say - not of saying "I have RL obligations and won't be around".

Well... though I agree that it sucks if people (ie. me) need to abstain from voting or participate very little during one Day, I think you are being a bit too hard - you don't really believe people have sudden RL obligations just for fun, do you? Sometimes one just can't help it, and though it sucks, it's just the way it is. It's a different case entirely if you are like that for the entire game, but if it's just one Day it shouldn't be such a big issue.

Originally Posted by Nog

Here's what I think of the next ones:

Innocent
Groin
Sally

possibly innocent
Greenie

These because of what they have stated about their situation.

Related to the previous issue, I don't quite agree with your logic that practically says that people with RL obligations are automatically innocent since if they were wolves they'd be foul and unfair wolves. Like I said earlier, sudden RL obligations are not a question of game tactics, and therefore in-game conclusions can hardly be drawn on that basis. Do I make sense at all?

Originally Posted by Nog

I mean the question is this: who gives up in a way like that? Personal character and the general involvement in these games is a major factor but I won't go into them too much as I don't want to engage in that meta-game discussion we had yesterDay anymore. But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question.

As for why I didn't vote - like I said yesterDay, I had no time to really think about the game and I would have felt entirely silly to vote even though I had no time to think about who might be a baddie. It would have felt almost like a random vote to me, and I rather don't vote at all than vote randomly without thinking.

I'll be back soon with more stuff on other issues.


EDIT: x-ed with Eomer

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

That's what's confusing me about this game- the Lovers are picking villagers who the village is likely to kill anyway. If they want to massacre us simply by numbers, why aren't they picking quiet unobtrusive villagers and letting us lynch our own loudmouths?

They are first and foremost after the other lovers - like we are after lovers in principle - so it looks like we all sadly think the same way and suspect more those who post a lot rather than trying blindly those quiet ones...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

They are first and foremost after the other lovers - like we are after lovers in principle - so it looks like we all sadly think the same way and suspect more those who post a lot rather than trying blindly those quiet ones...

Yeah, but if I was a Lover, I'd want to keep the other Lover pair around for a while to deflect suspicion from me. I can totally see your logic, it's just that it's not how I'd do it, you know? I'd want the other Lovers around to nuke the village and then I'd kill them later. There are pros and cons to either way (keeping the other Lovers alive makes for the risk of you dying at night, but lowers the risk of you being caught during the day).

And as with the others, I'm definitely curious what Rikae was on about yesterday. I take Mac's response of "always go for the greatest advantage. In a game, at any rate." this way: it seems like Rikae strongly thought she found something important. I mean, she said so, and that she didn't know what to do about it. Which makes me think it was information that could either help or hurt the village. If she thought she found a Lover, she would have said something obvious, I'm quite sure. I mean, she was Ordo, so she'd have no reason not to, unless Diamond isn't revealing the full nature of our roles when we die.

So I figure she must have thought she ran across a good guy role and didn't know whether or not she should point it out.

Which makes Mac's response make a lot of sense- if I was responding to that scenario, I'd say the same thing: "Wait for the opportune moment." So the question is, what did Rikae think she found, should we probe too deeply, and why did the wolves think Mac was too dangerous to keep around? And, about Mac- should we probe too deeply if this has to do with seeing things that could be dangerous for the village?

[A Little Green]

A list, since I've found out that lists are really a good way for me to get a picture of the village as a whole.

RED ZONE - suspicious
Gollum - Disagreeing with quite a lot of players, I think his behaviour indicates to a newbie wolf rather than a newbie innocent. Following other players' suspicions and/or suspecting others on very feeble grounds (especially his vote yesterDay was pretty horrible, really), being unhelpful and concentrating almost entirely on self-preservation strikes me more as a baddie.

YELLOW ZONE - somewhat suspicious, bears watching
Eomer - Smooth, calculating, posting little but seeming very active. I can't put my finger on it, but there's something that doesn't feel right with him. He's definitely someone who bears watching.

GREEN ZONE - innocentish
Aganzir - Has seemed very genuine throughout the game and makes reasonable points. No reason whatsoever to suspect her.
Nogrod - All in all seems quite innocent, though I disagree with him on quite many things. I was somewhat wary of him on Day 2, but his posting yesterDay seemed very much like an innocent Nogrod to me.
Brinniel - I guess she has been in my green zone throughout the game... But since she still hasn't given me any reason to suspect her, I suppose no can do.

NO IDEA -ZONE - sleeping under Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer...
Groin - Has really posted too little for me to make any conclusions about his role.
Sally - For some reason I have no read of her at all. Could be anything. I'll look at her if I have the time.
Shasta - See what I wrote about Sally - it's the same with Shasta.
Gwath - This guy, now, he could be about anything. No idea.
McCaber - The same problem as with Groin, though not as bad; there is too little to draw conclusions from.
Fea - I certainly want to look at her more closely if I have the time. Unlike the others on this zone, Fea seems both innocent and evil whereas the others seem neither. All in all, she baffles me.

To sum up, I'm worried about the size of my no idea -zone. Six people there, five in the others. Is the problem with me or with the village? Probably the former.

Is there anyone around except for me?


EDIT: x-ed with Fea: seemingly there is. Hello!

[McCaber]

Sorry I'm late. Halloween in madtown is wild yo.

Props to the ranger. Two protects in a row is great. And Nogrod is still alive. Odds are good for us.

Moving on, I'm not quite sure I like all these people with low post counts. Some of them just might not be thinking, but a few look like they're trying to hide something. I am spending valuable thought time on them, and sooner or later something will happen.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Hey Greenie. Since we seem to be the only ones around, I hope you don't mind if I take a look at your suspicions and ponder how closely they match mine. I don't really have anything better to do at the moment...

I agree with the consensus that Gollum seems newbie-ish, but when I've wolved with newbies before, there's often been some sort of night-time coaching. Kind of a 'Get it together before you get us killed!' thing. I feel like if he was somebody's Lover, he'd be a bit more careful. But if he is, who do you think would be his Lover? I lean toward Brinniel because of her defense of his newbie-ishness, but that seems to easy. The best way to defend a cohort in the spotlight is to stay out of the way and hope some well-meaning innocent does the job for you. Maybe twitch a few puppet strings here and there, you know? Anyway, I lean toward Gollum being more newbie-innocent than newbie-Lover. I can be swayed on this one.

Eomer. Now he's creeptastic and manipulative. But he is whether or not he's a bad guy and I'm willing to go out on a dangerous limb and say that I see no reason why we should kill him. He stirs up trouble, yes, but he thinks a lot like me, I've noticed. He's the type that I'd like very much to keep around until the end, if you don't mind.

I definitely agree with you about Agan being innocentish. Noggin I'm not so sure. Have you ever noticed that thing where people who know a lot are a lot more capable of imagining more? Maybe that's not common knowledge. Anyway, I've mentioned it before- people who know what their roles are (beyond ordo) are more likely to be able to successfully imagine the roles of their peers. Agan? She's so settled on her thoughts about what people could be. Nog is more open to the fact that Diamond could be lying left and right, that we could have a bizillion baddies, that etctera. See what I mean? He feels innocentish, but I'm meta-paranoid. Brinn I already suggested as maybe-worrisome.

I'm totally with you on the NO IDEA -ZONE. Groin, Sally, Shasta, McCaber... I've got nothin'. Gwath feels innocentish, but I'm not sure why.

Fea - I certainly want to look at her more closely if I have the time. Unlike the others on this zone, Fea seems both innocent and evil whereas the others seem neither. All in all, she baffles me.

I know. I'm sorry. I'll explain when I can. It's just awkward.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by McCaber

Moving on, I'm not quite sure I like all these people with low post counts. Some of them just might not be thinking, but a few look like they're trying to hide something. I am spending valuable thought time on them, and sooner or later something will happen.

A rather hypocritical comment for you to be saying...considering you have the second lowest post count among the living.

[Aganzir]

Hey I'm back.

Originally Posted by Gollum

1) I am wary of three people.

2) Because you seem to think I give weak reasons for being wary.

If you are wary of someone I expect you to give valid reasons. If you're a wolf who wants to make someone look bad (maybe not even look, but just make people have a bad feeling about her they can't put their finger on), one of the easiest things to do is just say someone looks *insert something suspicious* for no real reason. Your reasons which I quoted here looked fabricated. You changed your opinion of Rikae right after it started to look she could be lynched on day 1.

Originally Posted by Gollum

3) Because I considered you excited.

NO - because you didn't tell me why it was that I looked excited. If you threaten to or actually vote me because of that, the least you should do is to elaborate. I still have no idea what makes me "too excited", and before I get some real reasons, I interpret it as in the underlined sentence up there.

Originally Posted by Gollum

4) Because I voted Lommy because I didn't trust her. I got the idea (now I may be wrong) from last game that it is better to vote than not. I had almost no grounds to vote anyone else, and I could have voted you.

You didn't trust her because she was a wolf in the last game! It has nothing to do with this one! If you suspected me more, why on earth didn't you vote for me? Maybe because Lommy was leading at that moment, and you wanted to ensure the lynching of someone who wasn't your lover?

Originally Posted by Gollum

5) Because I seem to be going with the flow of the other players.

You do.

Originally Posted by Gollum

If you consider me to be going with the other players, I ask you how anyone can do that since the range of opinions and suspicions is so wide and varied.

Arrrr this is the most evil response I've ever seen.
I am going to look through your posts again soonishly so as to sum up the posts before which I made my case. However, back then you conveniently changed your opinions as soon as it started to look somebody was suspected and might be lynched. I'm thinking about Rikae and Lommy mainly, and yes, also myself. If you don't give proper reasons for your suspicions, I have no reason, either, to think you have any reasons apart from getting someone else but yourself or your lover lynched.
Anyway as for your response, instead of admitting you go with the flow you try to say you're not doing it since it's not possible. Going with the flow doesn't mean you agree with everybody on everything - it means you agree surprisingly much with surprisingly many without giving yourself anything new to the discussion.

Originally Posted by Gollum

I see nothing wrong in considering you excited, being wary of 3 players, or of giving lame reasons for being wary (I mean, I didn't want to vote for those people).

I see very much wrong there if you have no reasons and refuse to give any when asked.

Originally Posted by Brinn

These attacks towards Gollum bother me. Some of what Gollum says is flawed, but they seem more like newbie mistakes. It just feels to me that he's an easy lynch target- a scapegoat. I'm uncomfortable voting for any easy lynch targets because most often they turn out innocent.

To me they don't. And if he was an easy lynch target, why isn't he dead already?
Brinn, are you Gollum's lover?

Brinniel just jumped from my Innocent list onto the Guilty one.

Originally Posted by Brinn on sally

though her chosen no-vote makes her slightly less suspicious. But only slightly.

"But only slightly" because you wanted to discourage people stopping to suspect her?

Originally Posted by Brinn on Rikae

Her defensiveness definitely bothers me. And now she has this "fine, lynch me" attitude...which seems like reverse psychology to me.

I think Rikae knows better than to think that works as reverse psychology in WW. She's been lynched for behaving "oddly" also earlier.

Brinn was I think the first to state she could vote Rikae, who was at that moment gaining quite a lot attention (and suspicion). Somehow I don't like her reasoning though.

Originally Posted by Brinn

--- She seems frustrated to the point where she's no longer making sense...but that could point to innocence or guilt. --- she's pulled this off before as a baddie and I don't want to fall for a bluff. ---

Because while I do have a bit of doubt, I worry that I'll later regret if I don't vote her. And anyway, simply knowing her role will give me a sigh of relief rather than just be left wondering..

It looks too apologetic and explanatory. Saying, "I would later regret it, I need to know for certain" is a way I've seen wolves excuse their vote a couple of times, and have done it myself as well. Somehow it's such an easy thing to say when you're a baddie and want to get an easy lynch but not look like you were after it.

I don't know what to think of Nog. I didn't like his fierce attacks on Mac and Rikae yesterday, but then on the other hand it was like 6.30 am here, and it's weekend, which might explain at least some of his aggressiveness.

Originally Posted by Gollum

All right I have to go to bed now. But taking these words from one who appears innocent, I vote:

++Rikae

Vote well!

Funny. To me Rikae and Mac looked more innocent than Nog at that point.
If they had voted well, they would have voted you.

Okay, as for today.

I wonder if Rikae thought I was the seer, or tried to make the baddies think so. There weren't that many posts she could have been referring to, and the way she treated me later (eg not really responding when I asked why she thought I was innocent) made me wonder. If she did try, she seems to have succeeded. Or then the baddies just figured I'm after them.

Originally Posted by Gwath

As we approached DL yesterDay, it seemed like Rikae knew something important and that she was giving Mac hints about it. I would guess that the lovers killed Mac out of fear that he might have figured out what it was she was talking about (though I still have no idea).

This sounds possible.

Originally Posted by Nog

Which brings me to the possibility I entertained yesterDay of there being four pairs but only two of them getting to make a kill at Night. Di may randomise it who gets to make a kill or they take turns or something...

Yes, I thought about it, too. But even if there were more than two pairs, we shouldn't be able to know the number. There might be three or so as well.
I wonder why Nog wasn't killed. Was it because the baddies who tried to kill him the night before didn't get a kill last night? I can't see why they would leave him be when he would certainly not be protected. Or did they figure they could get him lynched, or do they want to bluff? Or did they just decide they have bigger fish to fry (Mac & me)? Were we somehow more dangerous to them?

Also I'd like to point out that being protected makes no one a known innocent in this game. The baddies were turned from our doors, but they couldn't see if Nog or I were sleeping calmly inside or going around in our nightly business. Therefore I can't say I really like Nog's known innocent show yesterday.

Originally Posted by Nog

About lovers going for Aganzir and Mac I'd say they look like someone has been after a presumed rival baddie.

Why? Was I that suspicious-looking?

edit: xed with Greenie, Fea, McC & Brinn

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

To me they don't. And if he was an easy lynch target, why isn't he dead already?
Brinn, are you Gollum's lover?

No, I am not. And if I were, do you really think I would be so obvious?

Anyway, considering how wrong my assumptions of players have been so far, I probably should re-examine him.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

No, I am not. And if I were, do you really think I would be so obvious?

I'd rather not rule out any possibility.

Anyway I'm now working on a case on Gollum again and just came to see if there were any new posts.

[Aganzir]

My last case against him was made on day two. I link here the two posts where I accused him then: #241 and #259.

On day 3 he didn't post much (apparently because of problems in his net connection) and when he came back, he didn't have any idea as to who to vote. He said he'd read and be back with "a list of suspicions and things". So, he was back - saying he had no idea of Groin, Eomer, Cab, Greenie, Gwath, and Eönwë (though he also said there was not a great deal to worry about him). He wasn't sure about Rikae because of not knowing if she had been joking about Mac. The only one he considered innocent was... *trumpet fanfare*

Originally Posted by Gollum #350

Brinn.-now here I think we have innocence. Just from the aura of her posts, that is.

Gollum, if I was to vote for Brinn to be lynched today, how would you defend her to me? I need more solid reasons than "just the aura of her posts", as you might know by now.

Voted for Eönwë "to save himself". He had one vote whereas Eönwë had two, and I don't think anyone who was yet to vote then was considering voting Gollum. Rikae (whom he seemed to suspect more) had two as well, but Gollum apparently xed with the second vote for her despite there being no mention of it. However, I don't think he wrote his post in one minute.

On day 4 Gollum said he can't make up his mind since either the players are not around or he "can't accuse them of anything for want of evidence". He said he keeps one or two under observation but nothing more. Now, Gollum, who were/are these "one or two"? Usually you should say it aloud unless you have a good reason to be silent about it.
Also, did I understand it correctly that the "want of evidence" part actually means "I can't accuse anyone because they want me to give reasons for it"? Sorry but that's the way it goes. You can't expect an innocent person to be like "Oh, he thinks I'm suspicious because my avatar looks gay and my signature is taken from a political rock song. That's alright - he must be innocent as well since I admit those are indeed suspicious things!"
If you really suspect me, why would you give it up just because I tell you to give reasons for it? Do you know what that looks like? That you don't care who you suspect as long as it's someone you're not related to in any way.

He also said he didn't have time to search for my case against him. I think it was quite easily found there if you just bothered to read the thread. Did you read? No wonder you couldn't come up with anyone to suspect.
Believe it or not, it's actually allowed to read posts from the previous days as well.

When Gwath asked him why people should refrain from voting him if he doesn't bother to respond to their accusations, he said one objection is not enough for him to spend time on (he changed his mind a short while later though when Gwath commented on it). This looks more like lack of interest than being evil, to be honest. If Gollum's a baddie he might want to be more keen on defending himself. However, if he didn't read the thread, he might not even have known there was a case against him. On the other hand, he seems not to have had time for it then (12.37 am my time he said he'd probably have to start working), and he promised to do it later (02.23 am he replied to my accusations).

His response is treated with here.

He voted for Rikae, his reason being the following part in Nog's post (who, in his opinion, appeared innocent):

Originally Posted by Nog

That did it...

Rikae = a baddie
Macalaure = a baddie

But they are not on the same side. I quess Rikae's team is the one that was responsibole for the deaths of Lal and Kit and Mac's team killed Legate and tried to kill me. Unless there are two more teams which kind of makes this speculation anew... and which I believe in.

But that doesn't change the basic point: they both have made their mark and have been remarkably vocal toDay. The early voting compared with their increased activity after that is just one thing.

I think this was pretty bad reasoning on Nog's part. I dislike his certainty of Rikae & Mac's guilt and the way he instantly started speculating whose team killed whom.
However, what also worries me is that Gollum didn't mention at all that he voted for Rikae because he was leading on votes himself at that moment and also Rikae was a good lynching candidate. The way he voted looks too clean. Like he didn't want to bring any attention on the fact that he had votes as well.
Then he asked Nog what was wrong with taking his words as a basis for his vote since he couldn't make up his mind otherwise.

Now that I've done with this I can understand more easily why some of you said he looks like an innocent newbie. However, he still looks more like an evil newbie to me, and I'm up for voting him today as well.

I am experiencing a similar feeling as when painting - there's so much I should do but when I start on something, I won't have time for something else and in the end I always run out of time.

[McCaber]

Gollum doesn't look so good. I should go back and see what other submarines could be like that.

I was doing some thinking about the enemies. If Nogrod was right and there are two teams, one started out eliminating quiet players and the other trying to find their rivals. Last night the quiet team changed its strategy. This might be accompanied by people changing their in-game strategies as well. If there are more than two teams, then I'm completely wrong.

[Aganzir]

Cab
day 2
-thought I was innocent.
-thought Eönwë's posts lacked content.
-thought Eomer was confusing.
-considered voting a fellow quiet one randomly so as to see how they react.
-considered voting Eönwë who looked something other than an innocent. Voted him.
day 3
-found "who would kill Nogrod?" a worthwhile question but didn't have an answer.
-found Gwath's overt defense of Nogrod a bit weird.
-thought Rikae and Nog looked innocent.
-didn't consider voting Gollum since his lack of posts looked more like newbie/lack of time than suspicious.
-voted Mac. Why?
day 4
-doesn't like all the people with low post counts - a few of them look like they're trying to hide something. Who?
-thinks Gollum doesn't look good. What made you change your mind?

Few posts but I think Cabbie looks pretty innocent - or the feeling I get from his posts is honest-looking. However, I'd like to hear a bit more reasons for some things. I'm not too worried about him for the time being, but I'd still like to see him talk more.

[A Little Green]

I'm back here again and will vote soon. My vote will probably go for Gollum toDay, since he is the one who looks most suspicious to me at the moment.

Originally Posted by Fea, about Gollum

But if he is, who do you think would be his Lover?

I haven't paid that much attention this far - I'm not as convinced as Agan that it's Brinn, it would seem far too obvious, but then, who else? If the couples are always one male and one female, it logically is either Brinn, Agan, Fea or Sally. For some reason I'm inclined to think it isn't Agan since she is attacking him with such ferocity. Even she wouldn't dare to make such a strong attack on her lover. That leaves then Brinn, Fea and Sally. I don't know about them. Of course if our dear moddess is not very conservative and allows lovers of the same sex, I'll be completely off track with this speculation.

Originally Posted by Fea

Eomer. Now he's creeptastic and manipulative. But he is whether or not he's a bad guy and I'm willing to go out on a dangerous limb and say that I see no reason why we should kill him.

I don't recall ever playing with Eomer before, so I had no idea whether he is always like that. Anyway, I agree that we shouldn't lynch him toDay. I'll have an eye on him in any case, since he feels like the kind of player who can easily sneak away with almost anything...

What else? Agan's fierce attack on Gollum seems a bit heavy - but then, on the other hand, I agree with her points and the posts give me the impression of an innocent Agan who is convinced that she has spotted a baddie rather than that of an evil Agan trying to mislead us. I think the latter would be somewhat more subtle.


EDIT: x-ed with Agan

[A Little Green]

Gah, I think bedtime is approaching... I'll vote

++ Gollum

for reasons I have already stated, mainly in my list post. Good night and Night, darlings.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

If the couples are always one male and one female, it logically is either Brinn, Agan, Fea or Sally.

Mac said that in the previous game same-sex couples were allowed so I guess we have no reason to assume it isn't the case with this one as well. Otherwise we could just go by my day1 plan and systematically lynch all the females.

Originally Posted by Greenie

Even she wouldn't dare to make such a strong attack on her lover.

Are you sure? I might find it funny, especially if Gollum was my lover.

Hmm I was still planning to go through at least Gwath & sally's posts but actually I think I'll go to sleep soon and wake up a bit earlier to vote since my school starts an hour before the deadline anyway.

edit: xed with Greeny

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Groin
Aganzir
Gollum
Nogrod
Brinniel
Sally
Shasta
Gwath
McCaber
Fea
Greenie
Eomer

Here are the players. Is it considered improper to start lynching females? I'm currently suspecting Greenie and Brinniel for reasons I can't quite explain rationally. Lovers games always bring up this difficulty: would the mod assign lovers roles to same sexes? I'm not sure. For all my talk of building cases based on facts I'm certainly not reaching anything like good conclusions based on known nightly activity.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Cross posted, obviously!

[Brinniel]

Groin: His carelessness towards the game makes me think he's most likely an ordo. And if he's not, it's not very fair to other players of the game.

Aganzir: I don't see anything terribly fishy about her. She's been consistent with her suspicions and her reasons behind suspecting Gollum are well grounded.

Gollum: His posts are short and don't contain much substance, and the ones that do are vague and flawed. It's definitely newbie behaviour, but I'm beginning to question whether it's innocent or evil newbie behaviour.

Nogrod: He's made a lot of errors so far, but it's not like the rest of us haven't. I just don't think he would've made such bold attacks against Rikae and acted to be so sure of his death if he were a lover.

Sally: She's posted a lot less than she normally does. Granted some of it's due to RL, but still. I've been somewhat suspecting her because of her strange behaviour and that she's been playing safely. But would an evil Sally be quieter, or would she be posting more?

Shasta: I suspected him at first, but I'm doubting my suspicions more and more. Mainly because he's been consistent and has not been playing as safe as some other players. Also, I beginning to agree with his supicions of McCaber.

Gwath: I don't why he keeps falling under my radar, but he still is. Looking at his posts, nothing really alarms me as suspicious...but at the same time, nothing in his posts make him look at all that innocent. So I just don't know.

McCaber: With the second least amount of posts, he has been quite submarine-ish...yet he keeps saying he suspects the players who have made few posts and are submarines. That really bothers me.

Fea: The fact that she doesn't say a whole lot about what she thinks of current living players and spends more time speculating about rules and past events does worry me.

Greenie: I'm having a lot of trouble getting a good read on her. She remains quite the mystery to me.

Eomer: Still seems calm and quiet. I don't know...for that reason, should I be suspicious?

Conclusion:

Suspicious
McCaber
Fea

Worried About
Gollum
Sally
Eomer

No Idea
Gwath
Greenie

Innocentish
Groin
Aganzir
Nogrod
Shasta

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by McCaber

If Nogrod was right and there are two teams

If I'm right, there are four teams (or three, you're of course correct here Agan). What makes me a bit worried with McCaber is the fact that he uses the little posting he does to thins kind of general speculation rather than trying to find the culprits... Not to talk of his "slightly" hypocritical suspicions on the non-posters or insubstantial posters (that's twice already).

I also find this somewhat suspicious:

Originally Posted by McCaber

Props to the ranger. Two protects in a row is great. And Nogrod is still alive. Odds are good for us.

I just find this unwarranted praise for / confidence in me very suspicious. Look at my record this far in this game! I have been an utter failure and a lot-posting disaster! So the fact that I'm alive makes our odds particularly good?

It looks more like a classical "wolf buddying up" someone wishing to increase the feel good factor and stay out of any closer scrutiny or suspcions.

Also I'd like to say that Agan has made some reasonable points on Gollum and I'm thinking he might be one of those I could vote toDay.


So what's up? I'm strongly suggesting a change of tactics. The lovers seem to be very much after the vocal and independent-minded players so we should stop lynching them ourselves.

My vote will very probably go toDay for someone from the down-end of the posting count (or someone who has posted more but has not actually given up her/his thoughts).

[McCaber]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I'm not too worried about him for the time being, but I'd still like to see him talk more.

So would I.

I changed my opinion because I noticed what I had previously brushed off before. So it's Aganzir's fault, then.

I've taken a look at Gwath. I'm not seeing anything strong one way or the other, but he hasn't made any memorable statements and seems to have slipped out of people's minds.

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

My vote will very probably go toDay for someone from the down-end of the posting count (or someone who has posted more but has not actually given up her/his thoughts).

Have to comment though I'm really really going to sleep now... It's good that you made the addition in brackets - I think we need to make the distinction between people who post little and people who contribute little. They are often the same guys, but not always. It's important to remember that a person can be contributing while posting little, and not contributing while posting a whole lot. Also, there are people who make a few long posts and people who make a lot of short ones. I'm not saying which is the "right" way - I'm just saying that people have very different ways of posting and therefore looking too much at the post count may not be beneficial.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

What else? Agan's fierce attack on Gollum seems a bit heavy - but then, on the other hand, I agree with her points and the posts give me the impression of an innocent Agan who is convinced that she has spotted a baddie rather than that of an evil Agan trying to mislead us.

Now let's remember this is lover's game and the normal interpreting procedures are in a large part not valid. The baddies are not trying to mislead us into voting innocents but they are after their rivals. I understand your point Fea as long as we talk of the very first Days. But with a chance of there being 8 baddies and only 4 innocents left the baddies surely are now feverishly looking at their rivals to get them lynched or killed by Night. So the baddies really try to lynch baddies now - as well as they go for them at Nights.

That's a good thing for us indeed. Sadly it seems they have been as bad in making the right decisions as we have.

On a second note I'm getting some bad vibes from Brinn and Eomer. They are both smooth and sensible - and Brinniel even seems to think about exactly the same I do... I mean looking at her latest suspicious - not suspicious list could be made by me.

I'm not going to vote either of them toDay unless something drastic happens but I just wanted to remind you others that the smoothest players are oftentimes the most terrible enemies.

X'd with McCaber & Greenie

[Gollum the Great]

These quotes are from the Animated Lion:

Gollum, if I was to vote for Brinn to be lynched today, how would you defend her to me? I need more solid reasons than "just the aura of her posts", as you might know by now.

In all seriousness, I was merely saying what I thought of Brinn.

Voted for Eönwë "to save himself". He had one vote whereas Eönwë had two, and I don't think anyone who was yet to vote then was considering voting Gollum.

Pardon me. Eonwe and I were tied and I had been given my 2nd vote first, so next in line to be lynched.

On day 4 Gollum said he can't make up his mind since either the players are not around or he "can't accuse them of anything for want of evidence". He said he keeps one or two under observation but nothing more. Now, Gollum, who were/are these "one or two"? Usually you should say it aloud unless you have a good reason to be silent about it.

I kept the names to myself because the last time I said who I was wary of you made a big thing about it. And to be honest, I don't recall who I had in mind.

Also, did I understand it correctly that the "want of evidence" part actually means "I can't accuse anyone because they want me to give reasons for it"? Sorry but that's the way it goes. You can't expect an innocent person to be like "Oh, he thinks I'm suspicious because my avatar looks gay and my signature is taken from a political rock song. That's alright - he must be innocent as well since I admit those are indeed suspicious things!"

By want of evidence I meant there was nothing to suspect them about in the actual content of whatever they said.
And whose avvy and sig are you referring to?

If you really suspect me, why would you give it up just because I tell you to give reasons for it? Do you know what that looks like? That you don't care who you suspect as long as it's someone you're not related to in any way.

How did you get the idea I've stopped suspecting you? I don't remember saying I quit doing that.
And how many people agree with Agan that it looks like I don't care who I vote for? If it really does seem that I don't care, I'll try to at least make it seem that I'm interested (if I'm not lynched first). I do vote for those I think should be.

He also said he didn't have time to search for my case against him. I think it was quite easily found there if you just bothered to read the thread. Did you read? No wonder you couldn't come up with anyone to suspect.

Of course I didn't read through to find your argument. I said before that I had to work.

Believe it or not, it's actually allowed to read posts from the previous days as well.

There's no reason to be sarcastic.

When Gwath asked him why people should refrain from voting him if he doesn't bother to respond to their accusations, he said one objection is not enough for him to spend time on (he changed his mind a short while later though when Gwath commented on it). This looks more like lack of interest than being evil, to be honest. If Gollum's a baddie he might want to be more keen on defending himself. However, if he didn't read the thread, he might not even have known there was a case against him. On the other hand, he seems not to have had time for it then (12.37 am my time he said he'd probably have to start working), and he promised to do it later (02.23 am he replied to my accusations).

Now in this respect I really want to be believed. I am very much interested in this game (why would I have joined it otherwise? check the admin thread to see what thought of simply starting to play.).
Oh yes. I work bizarre hours sometimes.

He asked Nog what was wrong with taking his words as a basis for his vote since he couldn't make up his mind otherwise.

Hey! we're all allowed to play differently. Also, what was wrong with doing that?