Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

David slew Goliath
.

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

On the contrary, the Witch King probably did mock Eru & saw Sauron as his true master.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy.

Essex obviously is referring to the Xena episode regarding David and Goliath.

Note that we've discussed this before.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Then why did he send the Ringwraiths to the Shire? Didn't Sauron perceive the thoughts of his servants when they had the Ring and its bearer pinned down in Bree, on Weathertop, or at the Ford?

Tolkien addressed this in his various time-schemes and the documents excerpted for The Hunt for the Ring in UT. Apparently Sauron did *not* read his servants' minds from afar.

Sauron sent the Nine out to find "Shire" and "Baggins." he catastrophically assumed that this was near Gollum's birthplace, and the RW wasted much time combing the Vales of Anduin. The Nine only learned where the Shire was from Saruman, and in more detail from his agent (the 'squint-eyed Southerner.'). They were baffled by Frodo's detour thru the Old Forest and Strider's circitous route- they finally located the Ring again on Weathertop. But what the WK knew was *not* what Sauron knew- he only learned all this, and of the Ring's arrival in Rivendell, when the W-K made his way back to Mordor after the Bruinen (late November).

Sauron didn't pick up the trail again until messengers reached him from Moria: his response was to send out Grishnakh's force with a Nazgul to set the ambush at Sarn Gebir. The last he heard from this party, it was trailing Saruman's Uruk-hai to Isengard with two hobbit prisoners- and therefore assumed (wrongly) that either M or P was the Ringbearer, and P was a prisoner in Orthanc when he looked into the Palantir. The next hint S got was Aragorn's use of the same Stone scant hours later, and from that point Sauron was fixated on the idea that Isildur's heir had the Ring west of Anduin.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Tolkien addressed this in his various time-schemes and the documents excerpted for The Hunt for the Ring in UT. Apparently Sauron did *not* read his servants' minds from afar.

Sauron sent the Nine out to find "Shire" and "Baggins." he catastrophically assumed that this was near Gollum's birthplace, and the RW wasted much time combing the Vales of Anduin. The Nine only learned where the Shire was from Saruman, and in more detail from his agent (the 'squint-eyed Southerner.'). They were baffled by Frodo's detour thru the Old Forest and Strider's circitous route- they finally located the Ring again on Weathertop. But what the WK knew was *not* what Sauron knew- he only learned all this, and of the Ring's arrival in Rivendell, when the W-K made his way back to Mordor after the Bruinen (late November).

Sauron didn't pick up the trail again until messengers reached him from Moria: his response was to send out Grishnakh's force with a Nazgul to set the ambush at Sarn Gebir. The last he heard from this party, it was trailing Saruman's Uruk-hai to Isengard with two hobbit prisoners- and therefore assumed (wrongly) that either M or P was the Ringbearer, and P was a prisoner in Orthanc when he looked into the Palantir. The next hint S got was Aragorn's use of the same Stone scant hours later, and from that point Sauron was fixated on the idea that Isildur's heir had the Ring west of Anduin.

Does this bode well in a Gandalf vs the Witch King debate?

[Essex]

Originally Posted by obloquy

Seriously, guy. Are you really claiming that the Witch-King had God on his side, and that Gandalf was a notorious antagonist of God's people, who mocked God himself? Because that's what the story of David and Goliath is about. Your ludicrous insistence on referring to that story even after its utter irrelevance has been established is baffling. I really am shocked.

It's just that sayying something like "Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer." That's what gets my back up (the bold text)

Let's put aside the david v goliath Biblical meaning - what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen - the underdog can win. And Mansun, yes I know you won't like me comparing this with a football analogy, but Hereford beat Newcastle many years back!

And then let's add another example, more 'battle' like. a few years ago who would have thought a group of "insurgents" could hold the biggest force on this planet at bay for this long?

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Originally Posted by Essex

Looking back at this thread (to re read my points from before) - we've all gone round in circles on this thread many times (as Alatar aludes to above) - maybe it would be better to close this thread so people don't get so het up anymore (myself included)

mods, what do you think?

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force? Because of Gandalf's triumph over this hulking foe thought to be on a comparable level to Sauron, I could never see the Witch King having enough in him to trouble Gandalf to the death. The Balrog, afterall, was a creature which haunted everyone's darkest dreams, including Gandalf's & those who dwell in Loth Lorien.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle. Therefore Sauron should have been deployed at the end, rather than letting him sit on his throne watching & waiting like a timeless being.

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

Originally Posted by Essex

I put forward my other point again, which no one has answered I believe, that Gandalf has a body which can be injured or destroyed. He may have been a Maia, but his body can be destroyed. If it were possible for him to walk around with a impenetrable bubble to protect himself then fine (hang on - Extended Movie Gandalf does have one when Saruman shot at him!)

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Do you honestly think the Witch King was greater than the Balrog from Moria, even with the added demonic force?

You don't get what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WK WAS 'greater' than Gandalf.

Perhaps a fault of the LOTR was that Gandalf had defeated a great enemy so early in the book (& film), meaning that only Sauron was left to cause a serious threat to Gandalf in battle.

good point. I agree. But then you have to remember that the battle actually was a draw wasn't it? Both Gandalf and the Balrog died. Gandalf grandly states that he defeated his enemy, but he glosses over the point that he had to be brought back to life too!!!!

Another point, Gandalf regularly called people fools, as did other characters - why cannot then posters call others fools if they choose to?

And they probably call each other worse things than that but, no, it doesn't give us a right to call each other fools. That is not prudent at all.

Isn't Gandalf able to protect his body with special spells rather like the Witch King & Sauron? Otherwise he would be as vulnerable as a Hobbit. In the human form, Gandalf is subject to the same pains, weariness, & fear as with all humans. But the key difference is he can defend himself with a power, of which only Sauron (or any other great maia) could definately contend with.

I haven't read that anywhere as of yet........ to quote Tolkien from The Istari" in Unfinished Tales

"with theconsent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodiesas of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth,able to hunger and thirst and be slain. . . . And this the Valar did, desiring to amend theerrors of old, especially that they had attempted to guard and seclude the Eldar by theirown might and glory fully revealed; whereas now their emissaries were forbidden to revealthemselves in forms of majesty, or to seek to rule the wills of Men or Elves by opendisplay of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble were bidden to advise and persuade Men and Elves to good. . . ."

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Originally Posted by Essex

so Gandalf can die. Be it by a lucky stroke perhaps............

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf indeed can die, as he did when he defeated the Balrog. His death appears to be like a binding contract set by Eru - reveal your true power to the full extent against Sauron or his seravnts in an assault & I will end your stay in Middle Earth.

But just because he can die does not mean he is very vulnerable to enemies. He could use all is true power to protect himself against a stroke from, say the Witch King's deadly Morgul Knife, so long as he does not use it to kill the Witch King.

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

How do we know that it was the Balrog that killed Gandalf the Grey? Maybe it was the exertion - he used up all of his power - or the rarefied atmosphere. Maybe it was a result of the Balrog's fall and death that not actively resulted in Gandalf's demise.

[Boromir88]

what I'm trying to say is that the strong don't always win - upsets happen~Essex

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

Originally Posted by Essex

and that's where our opinions differ. I cannot see any supporting evidence that allows (book) Gandalf to use a magic shield to protect himself from enemies. If he could, then the Balrog would not have killed him.

I believe in the LOTR it tells that Gandalf first killed the Balrog, then Gandalf died. So a magical shield theory could exist. As another poster correctly pointed out, it seems much more likey that Gandalf had used up all his life power in combat against the Balrog, fell to the ground & lost conciousness.

Recall the words Gandalf told of the 3 Hunters: "None of you have weapons that could hurt me". How then could Gandalf not have a magical ability to shield himself as though he is immune to a dint from Gimli's axe?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, upsets happen, as unlikely as it is...but what Jackson shows wasn't The Witch-King getting a 'lucky' blow in on Gandalf. It wasn't Gandalf stumbling on a rock, or getting stabbed in the back...it was the Witch-King dominating Gandalf (breaking his staff) and basically making him cry.

This is a good point, although long ago mentioned in previous posts. The film tells us that the Witch King is much more mightier than Gandalf, even though Gandalf slew the impressive Balrog in a titanic battle. There was no upset here - the Witch King wins hands down as though it were Morgoth himself hammering down Gandalf.

The book tells us that Gandalf is mightier than a Balrog (the most dangerous opponent one can face after Sauron), but his measure of power nevertheless remains to be tested against the enhanced Witch King.

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves; that I have done & conclude that given Gandalf's victory against the Balrog, one could be confident to expect Gandalf to kill the Witch King if he so chosed to do so (albeit through ending his own life via breaking the rules set by Eru).

[CSteefel]

Perhaps I missed it further back in this long thread, but I think that at least these latest posts are missing the fact that Gandalf himself is enhanced when he returns--the White Wizard instead of the Grey Pilgrim. There are numerous instances where Gandalf's enhanced power is mentioned, ranging from the quote above about Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli not having weapons to hurt him, to the destaffing of Saruman, etc.

So Sauron may have enhanced the Witch King's power, but Gandalf's power seems to have been enhanced on his return by Eru...

All of which goes to show to me that Peter Jackson completely misread the whole thing and changed the story for some desired dramatic effect...

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is therefore upto the reader to decide for themselves

Exactly. That sums up the whole thread. It is up to us to decide how the battle would have gone. It doesn't make anyone a fool if they think one way or another. We all have an opinion.

I have listened to all the well thought out arguments during this long, long thread. A lot of the arguments make sense, and HAVE changed my thinking somewhat towards the relative powers of Gandalf and the Witch King.

But I still say there is some doubt in Gandalf's mind when he approaches the gate. The tension that Tolkien cranks up to this point is palpable every time I read the book. To think that Gandalf could easily wipe the floor with the WK takes this tension away from the story. In my opinion Tolkien's view that it would be a pretty close battle is brought out in the style of writing, the atmosphere and the set up to the Witch King's entrance into Minas Tirith. To have this grandious entrance by Sauron's right hand man but just to sit there yawning and thinking as you read the book - "hey, no problem, this is boring, Gandalf's gonna wipe his hide anyway" - takes EVERYTHING away from this scene.

PS - Gandalf couldn't beat him anyway as Glorfindel said

(sound of can of worms opening)

[alatar]

In Peter Jackson's Arda, Arwen bests (with the help of a well-placed stream) all Nine, and also bests the best Ranger in the world. Aragorn was able to best Five of the Nine.

Arwen later becomes mortal - weird that her hands are cold as that would make her reptillian - and so we don't know what her powers were by RotK, but bleached Gandalf loses to the enhanced Witch-King, and so, in some sense, Arwen is or was greater than Gandalf. Make sense?

At least we know why PJ removed her scenes from Helm's Deep, as you couldn't generate the same amount of despair for the humans when Arwen Warrior Princess, Greater than Maia is around.

Originally Posted by Essex

But I still say there is some doubt in Gandalf's mind when he approaches the gate. The tension that Tolkien cranks up to this point is palpable every time I read the book.

PS - Gandalf couldn't beat him anyway as Glorfindel said

Tension is crucial in a book & film to ensure the audience engages with it; how boring it would be if the Witch King rides over to Gandalf, who in reply says "You fool, I am a Maia sent by Eru. You are no match for me. Go back to the shadow". In this case Gandalf would show no tension, just supreme confidence that he would defeat the Witch King easily, which the audience would pick up & realise it would be an easy win for Gandalf.

The tension Gandalf experienced was much increased by the coming of a 100,000 strong host of Mordor to the gates of Minas Tirith. Had the Witch King come alone, I do not think Gandalf would have been as tense. Anyway, as I keep pointing out, Gandalf was petrified when he saw the Balrog in Moria. If he thought he was going to end up in a titanic battle with the Witch King, why then was he not as afraid?

Gandalf could best the Witch King to live up to Glorfindel's comments - he is not an ordinary living man by nature.

First of all apologies for double posting, it is necessary as this is a separate point.

Somebody posted a long time ago about the fact that the Lord of the Nazgul was shaken by the fire of Gandalf at Weathertop, & that he also narrowly missed being pierced by a deadly blade, Sting, wielded by Frodo which would have been more lethal to him than the wound suffered by Frodo at the hands of the Morgul knife. I would very much like to know where this extract came from, since it also suggests that in the aftermath the Witch King was left reeling & even afraid of both Gandalf & Frodo.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

First of all apologies for double posting, it is necessary as this is a separate point.

Somebody posted a long time ago about the fact that the Lord of the Nazgul was shaken by the fire of Gandalf at Weathertop, & that he also narrowly missed being pierced by a deadly blade, Sting, wielded by Frodo which would have been more lethal to him than the wound suffered by Frodo at the hands of the Morgul knife. I would very much like to know where this extract came from, since it also suggests that in the aftermath the Witch King was left reeling & even afraid of both Gandalf & Frodo.

Quotes from Strider:

They have drawn off for the time being. But not far, I fear. They will come again another night, if we cannot escape. They are only waiting, because they think that their purpose is almost accomplished, and that the Ring cannot fly much further........................................
'Look!' he cried; and stooping he lifted from the ground a black cloak that had lain there hidden by the darkness. A foot above the lower hem there was a slash. 'This was the stroke of Frodo's sword,' he said. 'The only hurt that it did to his enemy, I fear; for it is unharmed, but all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King. More deadly to him was the name of Elbereth.

[alatar]

The 500th post!

What amazes me - actually it doesn't - is how much discussion can occur on what an author may (or may not) have thought perfectly clear. Tolkien may not have given this scene a second thought, and PJ may have thought that the 'Gandalf prone' scene was exactly what was called for in his interpretation of the texts. And yet we've reached 500 (and more, if we count other posts in other threads).

These are what schisms are made of...

Originally Posted by Essex

Quotes from Strider:

This is not the quote I was referring too. The one I was talking about is not from the book itself, but from another source.

An encyclopedia of Middle-earth in the Third Age

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The Witch-king was troubled by what had occurred at Weathertop. He had been shaken by his confrontation with Gandalf and he feared Aragorn. But he was also concerned that the Ring-bearer had resisted him even though he was not a person of great power. He feared that Frodo was in league with the High Elves because he invoked the name of Elbereth.

The Witch-king also recognized that Frodo's sword from the Barrow-downs had been made by the Dundedain for the war against Angmar. He knew that the blow that had narrowly missed him would have been deadly to him. (In fact at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, Merry Brandybuck would use the same kind of sword to deal the Witch-king a mortal blow.)

Because of these concerns, the Witch-king failed to observe the withdrawal of Frodo and his companions from Weathertop and he lost track of the Ring. It was not until later on October 7 that he resumed pursuit".

__________________________________________________ ___

This is what I have been looking after for sometime! This proves the Witch King was not the force some posters think he is. He does experience fear from a variety of things.

Alatar - your target was to reach 500 posts; mine is to reach 20,000 views!

[Essex]

The above Encyclopedia of Middle-earth is someone's opinion, just like yours and mine. It is not Cannon. Therefore it is not proof!!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

[Gwathagor]

And it's NOT a cannon!

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Because of these concerns, the Witch-king failed to observe the withdrawal of Frodo and his companions from Weathertop and he lost track of the Ring. It was not until later on October 7 that he resumed pursuit".

I thought that the lack of pursuit was two-fold: One, the W-K guessed, sans evidence, that Frodo would quickly go over to the dark side from the Morgul wound and two, that the noon day sun always drove out the images of the proto-Fellowship from the minds of the Nazgul, and so each evening they had to start over again, the analogy would be you looking for something such as a rabbit in a field, and each night having to stop due to the lack of light.

And truly the Nazgul knew fear.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Um, Essex, it's a straight paraphrase from Marquette MS 4/2/36 (part of the Hunt for the Ring complex), and so it represents Tolkien's opinion, not yours or mine.

If it is then I retract my statement of course. I'll re-read Hunt for the Ring again

EDIT- Hang on - can't find this AT ALL in Hunt for the Ring. not sure of the Marquette notage you use - I've got unfinished tales out, Hunt for the Ring section but can't find the text - where abouts is it exactly?

or is it in one of the later middle-earth history books?And anyway, back to the point why Mansun raised this

This proves the Witch King was not the force some posters think he is. He does experience fear from a variety of things.

My argument (and it's been the same for a few years now!) is not who is more powerful (My Dad's bigger than your Dad) - but that Gandalf COULD have been wounded and killed by a 'lesser' being - Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

[Gwathagor]

"Canon". The word is "canon".

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

"Canon". The word is "canon".

thank you. noted.

Originally Posted by Essex

Gandalf was not Invincible. He did die once already you know!

I agree, he can & has died, in certain circumstances. Tolkein deliberately did not want to test whether this included the Witch King or not. Therefore we can only make a subjective judgement. Even still, the LOTR makes clear the fact that the Witch King also experiences great fear for his skin in some circumstances. Where does this fear come from if he is not vulnerable himself?

Also, what signs of fear Gandalf shows when concerned with the Witch King is crucial (I have mentioned this often before). He is only anxious of the Witch King, but is this caused by him alone, or by the sheer numbers of Mordor forces crushing on Minas Tirith, & Frodo going to Cirith Ungol etc? The pressure was enormous, & even Sauron in this situation would experience great anxiety, even nervousness (fear).

If I read Gandalf experiencing terror as the Black Captain approached at the gate in Minas Tirith, then I would happily admit the Witch King received a great enough power boost which could give him a good chance of breaking Gandalf. But this did not materialise in the slightest; what we read was a confident & majestic Gandalf who orders with authority the Captain of a 100,000 strong Mordor host behind him to leave at once.

"Old Fool! Old Fool! This is my hour. Do you not know Death when you see it? Die now and curse in vain!

This massively important quote also suggests the Witch King does not know the true nature of Gandalf. With Gandalf being old, this does not have much relevance to his ability to succeed in battle, as he proved in Moria. As for dying, only the mighty Balrog of Morgoth has managed to inflict this upon Gandalf the Grey in 3,000 odd years of his existence, & even then Gandalf killed it first. Was the siege of Gondor really the Witch King's hour? Did he forget the small matter of Rohan here, not to mention Gandalf & co.? Nor did he know for sure where the Ring was, or who had it in possession. Not a very wise Lord this Nazgul proved to be - he failed to learn the lessons of his near miss with Frodo at Weathertop, & Merry takes advantage of it. All of what the Witch King says here is actually totally to the contrary - the above quote describes exactly what was about to happen to himself, & this is a true bit of genius by Tolkein.


If the Witch King dies in this enhanced form, does the power of Sauron become significantly weaker?

I have prolonged this thread as long as possible, but I think I am ready to retire! I have posted one of the best posts in this enormous thread (see above). Gandalf would have won, but he may have died himself by breaking the rules of the Istari set by Eru.

[obloquy]

Breaking the rules of the Istari does not result in death, and Gandalf had no need to fear the Witch-King even without compromising his integrity.

Originally Posted by obloquy

Breaking the rules of the Istari does not result in death, and Gandalf had no need to fear the Witch-King even without compromising his integrity.

"Thag you very buch."

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I have posted one of the best posts in this enormous thread (see above).

And you're modest too!

PS - unfortunately one never retires from this thread. You'll be back again. That's why I asked the mods to close this thread a few weeks back - it's the only way to stop it! It's just too tempting to go back and repeat oneself every couple of months or so.

Originally Posted by Essex

And you're modest too!

PS - unfortunately one never retires from this thread. You'll be back again. That's why I asked the mods to close this thread a few weeks back - it's the only way to stop it! It's just too tempting to go back and repeat oneself every couple of months or so.

I have been keen to hear other poster's thoughts on how the Balrog compares to the Witch King in stature, power & even rank in another thread (see the Books forum). This, I believe, is where the real answer lies in the Gandalf vs the Witch King debate.

As for closing this thread, I would think someone else would try & re-open it again later under a similar thread & start the whole thing alight again . . .

I have borrowed this from another thread:-

Originally Posted by Mansun

But just look at what Wikipedia has to say of Balrogs:-

A Balrog is a demon from J. R. R. Tolkien's Arda legendarium. A Balrog (Sindarin for "Demon of Might"; the Quenya form is Valarauko) is a tall, menacing being in the shape of a man, having control of both fire and shadow. One was noted to wield both a flaming sword and fiery whip of many thongs.

The Balrog induces great terror in friends and foes alike and can shroud itself in darkness and shadow. It can only be defeated by some person or thing of equal power, and amongst its own evil allies is rivalled only in its capacity for ferocity and destruction by the dragons, but the Balrogs are more powerful than dragons.[1]

According to The Silmarillion the Balrogs were originally Maiar, of the same order as Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf.

Can the enhanced Witch King match such a foe? It appears not, since he would need to be at least in equal power to Sauron, Saruman, Gandalf & the Balrog of Morgoth to be so. This ends the debate once & for all - Gandalf, Balrogs, Saurman, Sauron are all essentially closely matched, that we know. The Witch King, however powerful a sorcerer, cannot fall into this supernatural category & must therefore be deemed a weaker opponent.

Now I really cannot add more to this issue - all the evidence points to a likely victory for Gandalf, since the Witch King must be of at least equal power to kill a Maiar. So from the dark side, effectively, only Sauron or a Balrog (or the evil Saruman) could have potentially killed Gandalf.

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

all the evidence points to a likely victory for Gandalf, since the Witch King must be of at least equal power to kill a Maiar.

I diagree - because of this one line from ''The Istari' which I'll repeat again.

with the consent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain.

This has been my argument all along. And no one has persuaded me against it yet.

Originally Posted by Essex

I diagree - because of this one line from ''The Istari' which I'll repeat again.

with the consent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain.

This has been my argument all along. And no one has persuaded me against it yet.

Nobody has ever answered how Sauron, in his weakest form, was able to significantly increase the Witch King's power. The Witch King, even in his greatest form with the Ring in Sauron's hand, failed to make a great impact in the second age. Yet we must believe a weaker Witch King can topple Gandalf in his greatest form?

[Essex]

you don't have to believe me. It's just my point of view - Gandalf can be slain, Tolkien says so. I'm not going on about who is more powerful than the other - I'm just trying to explain that it's not always the greatest foe who wins a battle. Usually, yes - but not always.

If one says that so and so (Gandalf) is stronger than so and so (WK) then he must win in battle then this is very 1 dimensional thinking.

Originally Posted by Essex

you don't have to believe me. It's just my point of view - Gandalf can be slain, Tolkien says so. I'm not going on about who is more powerful than the other - I'm just trying to explain that it's not always the greatest foe who wins a battle. Usually, yes - but not always.

If one says that so and so (Gandalf) is stronger than so and so (WK) then he must win in battle then this is very 1 dimensional thinking.

Gandalf is not just a vulnerable human being, otherwise his burns suffered against the Balrog would have killed him far earlier. Plus, his battle against the Balrog lasted 2 days at least, which no ordinary human body could cope with. Yes, Gandalf does eventually die as a result, but a normal human body would not have sustained the fire of a Balrog, & thus he would have died instantly. We cannot therefore assume Gandalf is as vulnerable as what the Silmarillion makes out with confidence. His Maiar powers obviously shield his body to a large extent, or at least allow him to heal very quickly.

In Middle Earth history, can you think of any examples whereby the weaker baddie defeats a so called mightier goodie?