Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Boromir88]

I'm open ears for some WW ideas and can probably join in a game

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Will I do as an "expert"?

Always and Forever!

However, in this context expert should be interpreted to mean "pioneer of a specific game type or mod of the same."

However, I suspect I've gotten as much input from that demographic as I am going to get.

I'll be posting my draft rules...probably tomorrow as today is looking kind of full.

I may do it in this thread to ensure maximum notice of them.

[Kuruharan]

Behold my fiendish creation: Dueling Wizards, Deadthread Werewolf!!!! *dun dun dun dun*

What follows is a stripped down version of the draft rules, removing a lot of the usual minutiae, but I fear it is still kind of lengthy.

Wizards
There is a Good Wizard and an Evil Wizard. They are the driving force of much of the game. They are the only two roles that are assigned by me at the start of the game. They cannot be killed by normal means; they must be killed by each other in a Wizard’s Duel (which should be thought of as being pronounced Weeeeezaaard's Duuuuel in a ridiculous high-pitched voice) in which both of them will perish. They will stay in the Dead Thread after death. They have no special ability to communicate across the barrier of death.

The game commences and the Wizards begin their picks on NIGHT 1. Wizards make their selections one at a time. The Evil Wizard and the newly minted werewolf cannot make a kill on NIGHT 1 but the newly minted Gifted can begin performing their function immediately. If the Good Wizard and the Evil Wizard pick the same person (including on NIGHT 1) the picks are both nullified but that is all. The pick target does not die nor are the Wizards made aware of each other’s identity through this action. The picks in this game are limited and do not replenish. Once the number of picks available to each Wizard is expended there are no more.

There is nothing in the rules necessarily saying that the Wizards have to keep their identities a secret, but at some point in the game the other side has to kill them so they should probably keep their identity hush-hush for as long as possible.

Good Wizard – The Good Wizard creates the Hunter, the Ranger, and (at least) one Visitor. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a Gifted is not created the Good Wizard may scry the role of a player. The Good Wizard is informed of the role of the target exactly. If the Good Wizard picks a wolf for converting into a Gifted that pick is deterred but the Good Wizard keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Good Wizard scrys the Evil Wizard, the Good Wizard is informed of the identity of the Evil Wizard. The Good Wizard is never in direct communication with the Gifteds, nor are the Gifteds ever in communication with each other. The Good Wizard may send messages via the mod while alive to the Gifteds but may not share the Gifted’s identities with each other. This is RPed as dreams so will occur during the NIGHT phase. If a Gifted is killed and the Good Wizard has expended all three picks in creating Gifteds, that Gifted cannot be replaced.

Evil Wizard – The Evil Wizard may pick 3 wolves in total during the NIGHT. The picks do not have to be made strictly sequentially. On NIGHTS when a wolf is not created the Evil Wizard may scry the role of the target in quest of finding the Good Wizard. That is the only information that the Evil Wizard will find out. If the scry target is a Gifted that will not be revealed to the Evil Wizard. If the Evil Wizard picks a Gifted for converting into a wolf that pick is deterred but the Evil Wizard still keeps that pick for future use. It is not lost. If the Evil Wizard scrys the Good Wizard, the Evil Wizard is informed of the identity of the Good Wizard. The Evil Wizard and Wolves are able to PM each other during the NIGHT phase. Their identities are not secret from each other and there are no re-conversions from one side to the other in this game. If a wolf is killed in the game and the Evil Wizard has expended all three picks in creating wolves, that wolf cannot be replaced. The Evil Wizard cannot communicate with the wolves across the barrier of death.

Gifteds
Hunter - Usual Hunter role

Ranger - Usual Ranger role except that unlike other Dead Thread games the Ranger cannot return from the dead. That function is fulfilled by the Visitor(s).

Visitor - The Visitor role is the role that can pass between the Living Thread and the Dead Thread. The Visitor is created by the Good Wizard. Once the Visitor enters the Dead Thread they remain there for a DAY/NIGHT cycle. Then they return to the Living Thread, assuming the game is still ongoing. This is not a Lover role. They are guaranteed to return if the game continues. The Visitor remains in the Living Thread and can vote for one DAY and then returns to the Dead Thread permanently.

I am not sure if the Good Wizard should be able to inadvertently make a wolf a Visitor or if there should be one or two Visitors.

Wolves
Standard wolf pack in almost all respects except for how they are generated.

Winding Up
Those are the roles I have sketched out in my head at the present. Due to the powers of the Good Wizard I am skeptical of including a Seer in this game. It seems redundant and I think biases the game against the wolves too much.

The reason why I don't plan to allow reconversions, am keeping the number of picks limited in this game, and am allowing the Bad side to know each others identities is that I'm expecting this to be a rather low population game. These latter days we struggle to get many people to sign up for games and I want to make it workable for a smaller group. I'm not necessarily wedded to the specific numbers yet. I'm also not certain if there should be one or two Visitors. If there is the chance for the GW to pick a wolf as a Visitor then I think there needs to be two Visitors.

If we suddenly get a rush of sign ups and it looks like the population might be higher than I anticipate I might change some of the above.

Comments? Criticisms?

EDIT Forgot to mention that the Dead Thread will function the same way as the last Dead Thread game as far as vote empowerment etc.

[Loslote]

I've never played a Dueling Wizards game before, so I don't have comments or anything, but I'm definitely excited! Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

[Nerwen]

Oooh! Exciting!


I've technically played in one Duelling Wizards game, but I died very early. Still, here are some suggestions/comments:

1. I agree the Seer is redundant.

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Loslote

Also, is the hunter logical or non-logical? Can't wait!

-and-

Originally Posted by Nerwen

3. What, to you, is the "usual Hunter role"? Logical or non-logical? Similarly, what are the rules for Ranger protections?

To me the "usual hunters" are as illogical as possible. Probably because of a hazy and scarring memory from the distant past where as a Hunter I accidently took out the Seer or something...I don't remember exactly what my blunder was...I just remember it being baaaaad.

As for the Ranger: can't protect the same target twice in a row but can protect the same target multiple times, so theoretically could protect the same person every other NIGHT over and over again.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

2. Not sure about the Visitor. I like the idea of keeping some uncertainty about the role's alignment, i.e. a possible wolf- and yes, in that case there should be two. Even so, it sounds like the sort of role that can skew a game rather easily, so needs careful implementation.

I know. That is the problem.

I don't want to set up a situation via the rules where one decision by one individual basically wins the game for one side and having only one Visitor could do that. While having two Visitors would dilute the power a bit it would add to the number of players needed for the game.

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would the phantom do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.

Originally Posted by Nerwent

4. Are roles normally revealed on death? Or is this like other games with a Dead Thread in that respect?

No, roles would not be revealed on death. The only way for the "General Public" to find out a role for sure is in the dead thread during the NIGHTly reveal vote.

My calculations (which might be horribly wrong) say that we need a minimum of 13-15 players to make this work...more would be awesome.

So start working Facebook, everybody!

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Kuru

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would*the phantom*do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.

It would definitely involve a disregard for the intended twist of the game, a very convincing false reveal, and annoying the pants off of half the village.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuru

Basically we need to ask ourselves, what would*the phantom*do to break the game to turn it in his favor depending on what side he was on.

This should be framed and hung on the wall of every mod planning an experimental game.

[Nerwen]

Another clarification request- how does the Visitor enter the Dead Thread in the first place? Only by being lynched or killed? Or is there a voluntary option?

[Nerwen]

Do we feel like making another attempt at recruiting those highbrow types from their ivory tower in the Books forum?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Another clarification request- how does the Visitor enter the Dead Thread in the first place? Only by being lynched or killed? Or is there a voluntary option?

Ahh...you noticed my ambiguity on that point.

I haven't completely decided.

I am, however, open to opinions.

It does seem a little odd to my mind to pick a Visitor and then try to kill them, but at the same time in the other Dead Thread games the special people in question also had to be killed. The difference this time is the Good Wizard would be deliberately picking a Visitor.

This also brings up the question of do I tell the Visitor that they have been picked as such. We must bring Nilp out of retirement. This could be a role where he could really shine.

Of course for him at this point it is a little bit of been there done that.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Ahh...you noticed my ambiguity on that point.

I haven't completely decided.

I am, however, open to opinions.

It does seem a little odd to my mind to pick a Visitor and then try to kill them, but at the same time in the other Dead Thread games the special people in question also had to be killed. The difference this time is the Good Wizard would be deliberately picking a Visitor.

This also brings up the question of do I tell the Visitor that they have been picked as such. We must bring Nilp out of retirement. This could be a role where he could really shine.

Of course for him at this point it is a little bit of been there done that.

This actually made me laugh out loud for ages, like a lunatic.. Lucky there's no-one else home.

[Kuruharan]

Perhaps a compromise...one Visitor goes into the Dead Thread at the start of the next DAY and the other Visitor has to be killed?

That might spice up the tactical options a bit.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Perhaps a compromise...one Visitor goes into the Dead Thread at the start of the next DAY and the other Visitor has to be killed?

That might spice up the tactical options a bit.

For some reason (idiocy, probably) I read this as a sort of conditional statement- "If Visitor #1 goes into the Dead Thread then Visitor #2 has to be killed [the Day after]", but you just mean their roles work differently, right?

[Nerwen]

So, about the setting- do you have anything in mind?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

For some reason (idiocy, probably) I read this as a sort of conditional statement- "If Visitor #1 goes into the Dead Thread then Visitor #2 has to be killed [the Day after]", but you just mean their roles work differently, right?

Yes, roles that work differently.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So, about the setting- do you have anything in mind?

I was sort of thinking a setting of I invite everybody back to my place to make amends for forcing them to watch that horrible movie last time. There's no way that could go wrong...right?

Do you have a suggestion?

I will probably post a sign-up thread this weekend and see if we have enough interest to actually get this thing off the ground.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Yes, roles that work differently.



I was sort of thinking a setting of I invite everybody back to my place to make amends for forcing them to watch that horrible movie last time. There's no way that could go wrong...right?

Do you have a suggestion?

Well, generally I prefer Middle-earth settings for these games, but that's just me. I could wander off and try to come up with a specific one if you like, though. Of course by now everything has been probably been done before at least once, though...

[Nerwen]

Let's see... in no particular order, we've set them in the Shire (several times- we seem to find the notion of Hobbit bloodbaths strangely poignant), in Rohan, in Gondolin, in Minas Tirith, in Lorien, in Valinor(!), among the Woodmen, among the Rangers, on Amon Rudh, in Bree, in Numenor (several times), in Belfalas, in Harad, in Lorien, in Brethil, among the Lossoth (the first Duelling Wizards), among the Wargs, among the Trolls, on the Helcaraxe, in Beorn's house, in Tom Bombadil's house, on the actual Barrowdowns, among the Corsairs (repeatedly- arrr, we like to be pirates, me hearties!), in Angband, in Utumno, on Ard-Galen (the first Dead Thread game), in Hithlum, in Ossiriand, in Erebor, in Laketown, in Shelob's lair, in Ithilien, in the Misty Mountains, under the Misty Mountains (in which we were Orcs and oddly enough the game ended in a bloody massacre of the entire village- ya hoi!), in Tol-in-Gaurhoth itself (twice) and there was even an alternate history one wherein Saruman returned to the light and somehow persuaded the Council to form an entirely different Fellowship including Uglúk!

Well, revisiting all these past glories has occupied a rainy evening for me, but it does show the difficulty of finding an unused Middle-earth setting.

However, there are a few notable locations that don't seem to have been used yet, including, oddly enough, Rivendell. You could perhaps do something with that. Eregion at the time of the Gwaith-i-Mirdain also strikes me as having potential for a Duelling Wizards game, and then there are still some vacant- as it were- First Age settings, including Doriath and Nargothrond. Also I don't think there's been one set in Thranduil's halls, or in Fangorn (though perhaps that's for the best, given what dedicated roleplayers we all are- Day One alone could take weeks).

Anyway, it's your game, so feel free to use these suggestions or not as you like. As I said, it's been fun looking up these old threads anyway.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, generally I prefer Middle-earth settings for these games

My place is in Middle-earth.

[Kuruharan]

I have created the admin thread for Dueling Wizards III here.

Everyone who said they wanted to sign up for this game please affirm that in the other thread.

Also, please continue any rules discussion in that thread.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

My place is in Middle-earth.

So were we watching this movie of which you speak on your palantir? Or perhaps on the Morgul™ Home Entertainment System?

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

So were we watching this movie of which you speak on your palantir? Or perhaps on the Morgul™ Home Entertainment System?

I am a trader of wide contacts...

[Kuruharan]

Since sign ups have been so slow, I am setting a deadline of June 24 to assemble enough players to start my game.

We are only short two players so if we get them we can begin.

[Galadriel55]

Played Mafia with a few friends face-to-face for the first time since starting to play Werewolf. Those guys have the worst Day Ones, they just go straight to random voting without any preamble. No bluffs or double bluffs. No fake reveals. No reverse psychology. No wolf-on-wolf (a fellow mafia was very panicked and confused when I sent some harmless suspicion their way). Suspicion is based on whether the person was innocent or not in the previous game. Gifteds can't hint, and ordos don't watch for hints coming their way. Ahhh, the poor sweet summer children. They didn't have the Downs to teach them.

[Kuruharan]

Send them our way.

We will train them up.

[Galadriel55]

Hey folks! Who's up for a fairly basic game?

It's busy, but I am clearly faced with no choice but to embrace WW, as the alternative is writing an extremely detestable essay assignment. So please help spare me some of my misery by providing entertainment that will also encourage the state of inspiration known as last minute panic some weeks hence.

So, who's in?

[Inziladun]

I think I could make time for a game, especially of the simpler variety.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Hey folks! Who's up for a fairly basic game?

It's busy, but I am clearly faced with no choice but to embrace WW, as the alternative is writing an extremely detestable essay assignment. So please help spare me some of my misery by providing entertainment that will also encourage the state of inspiration known as last minute panic some weeks hence.

So, who's in?

The last two times I played I got killed off early.

It scarred me. I had been anticipating the shenanigans, with the same stoic demeanor of an adolescent on a strict sugarcane diet the day before christmas. My early demise upset me so, that I left the WW lifestyle behind me.

Anyways a year or two has gone by, the wounds have become strong scars. I think I am ready for another round.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

The last two times I played I got killed off early.

For me, maybe the last dozen times?

[Nerwen]

As always, count me in.

[Galadriel55]

Well, three is company - I'll open a thread soon.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

For me, maybe the last dozen times?

Well some people handle adversity better than others, and I, I am but a delicate flower.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Rune Son of Bjarne

Well some people handle adversity better than others, and I, I am but a delicate flower.

After a while, you just embrace the idea of being cannon fodder.

[satansaloser2005]

I know I'm going to regret this because I don't really have time for a game right now, but....

Anyone want to play some Werewolf?

[Inziladun]

It's hard for me to play at work now, it's grass cutting season, many RL things intruding...but...yes.

[Nogrod]

Let's play Werewolf again?

I know some people (myself included) have been joking lately, that with the global situation being what it is, a game of Werewolf could be in place. We discussed this with Thinlomien and A Little Green just a moment ago and decided that I'd go and make an actual suggestion of it here. So why not play a game for a looong time?

If there would be willing players to play a game, there would be a couple of things we'd need to consider.


Modding: Most people surely crave for playing rather than modding now. I could mod the game unless there is someone who would really want to do that. In case there are many people wishing to mod a game, let's see if we have those old modding-lists somewhere, and then see who of the willing are highest on that list.


Game-mechanics: My initial idea was, that this would call for a really basic "old school" game, but then I managed to think it twice. The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.


Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.


So, what say you? Shall we play?

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So, what say you? Shall we play?

Yes please!

A basic game would be nice (perhaps with a cobbler thrown in if we have enough players...? one can always hope) but I'm not opposed to a dead thread if the rules are as simple as they were the last time.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am very happy that there is a brave soul who would suggest it! I am sure there are more of the same mind.

I would also advocate for a simple game, nothing too experimental. A basic Wolves-Seer-Ranger-Hunter-possibly Cobbler setup would be fine.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

The problem with the basic game is, that if you get lynched on the first day, which happens to someone anyway, the game is over. I think that after this long pause in Werewolf it would be much more fun if everyone could play a bit longer than that.

Therefore I'd suggest some form of a "Dead-thread"-game, where playing in the dead-thread would be meaningful and interesting (aka. the dead would have some power on the events - but not too much, of course). We should discuss the details together. I'd not suggest a Dueling Wizards -game or any such over-complex one though. A simple game, but one where the dead could also play and try to actually influence the outcome.

A good observation. I agree with that sentiment. Perhaps we (and yes, I already said "we"; clearly I am already counting on this happening and counting with me being there - woe is me...) could have a dead thread - maybe with some simple power such as giving the one extra vote to a person every day, meaning empowering one of the living they trust, or somesuch. Even though I remember it frustrated me to no end as a Wolf. But isn't frustration an inseparable part of a good WW game?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Theme: Would it be distasteful / out of question to put the game into the world of "The Children of Húrin" where plague ravaged the village? Well, that's just one idea. And if someone else mods the game, they sure are free to come up with whatever they like.

For myself, I don't think it a problem. I would exactly think it appropriate. "If we can't do very much about it, we can at least laugh about it," as one great artist compatriot of mine once said.

[Huinesoron]

I totally don't have time for this, so I'm in if you'll have me.

If you're looking at a Halls of Waiting thread, does that imply that roles & alignment aren't revealed on death? I don't even remember how the Downs usually does that, but being outed as a wolf could make interacting in the Halls kind of depressing. On the other hand, reveal-less deaths could make being in the village rather frustrating.

hS

[Loslote]

I would absolutely be interested in playing a game of Werewolf! I am getting very restless being at home all day every day, and having deadlines every day might even help me remember what day it is.