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#441 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,779
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I may be misremembering, but I've got a feeling that Ang didn't actually discount votes, didn't he just evict people in addition to those voted out by the players?
Anyway, I don't want to put backs up, or make anyone feel like they've been painted into a corner, by issuing threats and ultimatums.... ....but at the same time, this game had become a lot of fun on a lot of levels....advocacy, persuasion, diplomacy, deal-making and negotiation, bluff and double-bluff - and now it just isn't anywhere near as much fun, because to in order to play at such a level we need basic gaming parameters, eg having a rough idea about when days are going to end, and just what people have to say and do to get their votes counted. So if it isn't going to be fun, there doesn't seem much point....
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
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#442 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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And in the midst of the controversy, my Case Against Elendil, work of a morning's diligent ranting, gets no love?
Honestly. This mass-boycotting is uncalled for... I would suggest that Formendacil lay down his rules and reveal his criteria clearly, since you're all being so stuffy about this; but I don't see any need for throwing out or dragging in candidates. It'll send us scrabbling over old material. On the other hand, if there must be a choice due to you all being revolting peasants, Elrond not Celeborn must go, Oropher not Khamul return. If we're going to revise one candidate by stringent-mode, we'll have to revise all the other non-stringent votes-completely warping the game as it has enjoyably proceeded so far. For myself, I continue to regard this game and Formendacil's modding as the most enjoyable Survivor so far.
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Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
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#443 | ||
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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At any rate, I have long RPG posts that need writing and a Werewolf game that may or may not be starting soon, so I go now to expend my energy elsewhere.
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
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#444 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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Right now I think that old decisions should stand, Formendacil having the right as Mod to decide how he wants to tally votes. But for future reference, I also think it would be better to have set rules about what is counted and what isn't.
And back to the voting... The Elendili are currently the strongest tribe and in need of thinning to keep balance. I'll go with Ang's argument that Elendil's hubris is beyond excuse. Besides that, shouldn't he have done a little better job teaching Isildur to avoid things like shiny rings forged by Dark Lords? Would have saved Middle-earth tons of trouble if he did. ++ELENDIL
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#445 | |
Dead Serious
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And just what is all this ruckus about?
Okay, I know what all this ruckus is about... It seems to me that there's a certain "poor loser's syndrome" going on. Well, I can sympathise... For what it's worth, I'd just as soon have saved Gil-galad rather than Elrond, but I didn't. Okay, my criteria being in the dark is bit mysterious, and I can understand the criticism there. Very well, in the future if I stick to the Tolkien-based voting system, I'll analyse each and every vote in the open. The only reason I was keeping it in the dark was to avoid offending people's sensibilities as to whether or not I was being partial and counting votes to please myself. So, if there are offended feelings in the future because I don't think your votes are reasoned, then I apologise in advance, but you brought it on yourselves. However, I am not reinstating Khamûl, nor I am reinstating Oropher. If I reinstate anyone, it'll be Gil-galad, because I feel like indulging Lhuna. But, since I'm as impartial a mod as I can be, I'm not doing that, so nobody is being reinstated. Now, as regards the Day End/Start times, I refer you to this quote from my thread-opening post: Quote:
All days will be as close to 24 hours in duration as I can manage. An hour or two off is quite possible. If 24 hours isn't possible, then I'll let it go on longer, and end it when I see fit. I have a rather irregular work schedule, guys. Last week I was opening the store, so I worked 10:00 am to 6:00ish pm. I also close the store, meaning I work 5:00ish pm to 12:30ish am. I also sleep. Therefore, a regular schedule cannot be expected. And, to be perfectly honest, I like the idea of relatively random deadlines. If you don't know to the half hour when I'm going to stop the game, then you may have to vote NOW- a fact that kind of even things up for people like Nilp or Lhuna who can't vote near the deadline many days because of the timezone difference. So, the days will remain as they are: irregular. At least they're more regular than Glirdan managed in his game. ~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#446 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Although "disillusioned players" is a more apposite term than "poor losers". Quote:
![]() I can understand your points about the deadline. The uncertain deadline actually made the game more interesting, as it was always a risk whether to put in a "safe" vote or wait and risk missing the deadline. But, plotting and scheming takes up a fair bit of time and it is rather galling to see that all go to waste on the moderator's whim. Indeed, it makes one wonder whether it is worth the effort. And since, unfortunately, it looks like the game is likely to continue in the same vein, then I can see little point in continuing. There just ain't no fun in it any more. So, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM is hereby formally dissolved (for now, at least). Do with the remaining contestants as you wish.
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#447 | |
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
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#448 | ||||||||||
Beloved Shadow
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The amount of whining that I see makes it quite clear that you guys are really really taking this game seriously. Curious, seeing as you are quick to point out that this is the "Mirth" forum.
You all should be goofing around and being over-dramatic like me. It's more fun than being a stick in the mud. As far as the complaining about the way the votes were counted, allow me to demonstrate the way I would've counted the votes for Elrond and Oropher. Now don't try to argue with me about any of my judgments. Don't tell me "Well, I wouldn't have counted it that way!" That doesn't matter. I'm just trying to show you the thought process that could lead to the results we got. In other words, showing that Formy probably had certain things in mind for counting votes and didn't just decide to count some and not others on a whim. morm votes for Elrond: Quote:
- - NO VOTE Spawn votes for Elrond: Her argument was that Elrond's refuge, Rivendell, only thrived because of Vilya. Now, why this is a reason to cast out Elrond I don't know (and I fought her quite nicely with quotes, I think ![]() ![]() + + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND Diamond18 votes for Elrond: She voted for Elrond because she thought I was being mean. So quite obviously- - - NO VOTE (btw, I wasn't being mean to anyone, Diamond, I was simply being overly fanatic for the purpose of entertainment, people who've seen me in werewolf games are very familiar with my "hysterical phantom routine", as I believe Kuru called it, and generally find it amusing- I'm sure Spawn knows good and well that I don't honestly think she is stupid ![]() Eonwe votes for Oropher: Quote:
Had Elrond been running up against someone other than Oropher, he probably would've been voted off, but Oropher is extremely easy to cast a Tolkien-based vote for by virtue of the simple fact that Tolkien didn't say much about him. This is why it was so easy to include the Oropher votes in the final tally. At least that is my theory. Please do your best to understand this. + + VOTE FOR OROPHER TORE votes for Elrond: Quote:
- - NO VOTE Celuien votes for Oropher: First, she quotes Eonwe- Quote:
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+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER Elu Ancalime votes for Elrond: Quote:
- - NO VOTE Kuru votes for Elrond: He at least points out something from Middle-Earth- the fact that Elrond was the herald of Gil-galad. However, the conclusion that he draws from this is that Elrond "didn't do a thing" in the battle. He certainly doesn't give anything to support that, but perhaps his vote gets counted because he gave exact information from Tolkien's book (that Elrond was Gil's herald)? + + PROBABLY A VOTE FOR ELROND Gil votes for Elrond: Quote:
- - NO VOTE the phantom votes for Oropher: Quote:
Not only that, but Formy might've been persuaded to count my vote simply because of my many quality Tolkien based defenses of Elrond. I was obviously trying as hard as anyone to keep the game Tolkien based, so it makes sense to count my vote. + + VOTE FOR OROPHER lord votes for Oropher: Quote:
+ + VOTE FOR OROPHER Firefoot votes for Oropher: Quote:
- - NO VOTE And so the final tally is... Elrond: 2 Oropoher: 4 There! Now that you have seen a vote count demonstrated, perhaps that will put an end to these charges of vote "rigging". For those of you with this attitude- "My person didn't win so I'm not playing any more"... You need to smack yourself on the head and tell yourself "It's just a game." Then you need to smack yourself again, and tell yourself "As Phantom demonstrated, I suppose it is actually possible that Form's final vote tally is somewhat justifiable." After that, smack yourself once again and say "To be safe I'm going to come up with real reasons to vote for characters from now on." (I know I'm going to be trying harder just in case) And, no doubt, a few of you think I'm only saying all this because my candidate didn't get voted off. If that's what you think- whatever.
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the phantom has posted.
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#449 | |||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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#450 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Not to critisize Formendacil, but one of the great things (and at the same time stupid, dont forget) about democracy is that, in a republic, [ok just for example the USA
![]() I think Formy is really tring to make this game 'correct,' but a degree of 'fun' might be lost. It is Mirth, and it is fun to make cases like Elronds a sissy and we dont want sissys, but that comes down to what Kuru and Phantom said days ago: Charactars vs. vendettas, and theres a balence to be found, because like I said, if its ONLY charactars, Isildur, Elendil or Sauron should win by default, or only vendettas, DOOM could carry Joe the Hobbit to victory 'just because.' Quote:
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________ BUY EASY VAPE VAPORIZER Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:27 PM. |
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#451 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: dor-lomin, of course
Posts: 167
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I say we get rid of Treebeard. He didn't do anything of note in the Second Age.
I think the ents might be better off without him. Maybe a younger, more "hasty" ent would take charge, like Quickbeam. + + Treebeard
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I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure. |
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#452 |
Beloved Shadow
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Ooo, Eomer isn't going to like this, but I simply must, since I've been given an easy opportunity to bump him off.
+ + Fangorn (Treebeard) I hate people who take to long to get to the point, and so I am very much anti-ent to begin with. And then consider, how much good do ents really do? Except for once every few thousand years they don't do anything of value. And they aren't even decent enough chaps to travel with their wives, but instead they just let them wander off to meet their fate alone.
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the phantom has posted.
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#453 | ||
Dead Serious
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Due to a certain lack of voting for characters in the game, the Day's deadline will be postponed to something in the neighbourhood of 24 hours.
Now, to restate certain things that have been overlooked: 1. I have admitted that I was probably wrong to hide my Tolkien-based criteria for voting, and to just present the tallies. Evidence: Quote:
Evidence: see last quote. 3. My original reason for keeping the criteria secret was not to rig the game, but to avoid offending anyone who's vote might not have been counted- and to keep game discussion on which characters should have been voted off, NOT on whether or not I was correct in allowing/disallowing certain votes. My decision here may have been wrong, if so, I have already admitted that- and said I will change. Evidence: Quote:
Okay, this is a bit of a new topic, and the points I'm going to make haven't been made specifically by me. To begin, the requirement to have a rationale for one's votes is not an idea that I came up with. This goes back to Anguirel's game, and was an official rule of Glirdan's. It was also a rule that I was not initially fond of, during those games- possibly because their enforcement of it was inconsistent. However, keeping in mind that this IS a Tolkien forum, and keeping in mind the idea that posts with some meat to them make for a better argument (and thus Survivor thread) than simple ++ My Candidate posts, I began to reconsider my opinions on it over the course of the games. When I started my own game, I did not originally see a need to include the rule. I assumed that, more-or-less, most voters would include SOME rationale in their voting- and, if the rationale was to be rational, I assumed that it would Tolkien-related. On about Day 3 (and research back on this thread will clear up exactly when it was), one of the voters from a previous game, possibly Anguirel (though I don't wish to name names in case I'm wrong), was irked at a lack of apparent reason behind someone's vote, and the issue came up in my mind. That night/day, tallying up the votes, I too was irked at the apparent lack of reason behind some of the votes- and as the two "Tolkien-based" tallyings I have done thus far will show, quite a few votes are easily discounted on this point. Although I held to the majority decision (a majority decision that I seem to recall disliking for some reason), I did post that I would be possibly changing the rules to require a Tolkien rationale for the votes. The way I initially did this was done in such a way that I wasn't GUARANTEEING that I would only count Tolkien-based votes- but I might, so you'd better include a reason to be safe. My intention, at that time, was not to force you all to do more work, but to try and stimulate you all by non-forceful means into livening up debate. However, as the voting progressed over the following days, the overall percentage of "unreasoned" votes didn't really change, and it possibly got worse. A few players asked me (SPM right here on the game thread), if I could be expected to start discounting votes. I replied "No" in all cases, but continued to mention it as a possibility for the future, not necessarily to be acted on. Well, yesterday I acted on it. I gave plenty of warning, and I don't regret that I did. Now, I do most sincerely and heartily regret the whole kaffuffle that it has caused. I apologise for keeping my decisions on which votes are eligible secret- clearly, I did not think it through as completely as I ought to have. I will admit to being quite pleased that it was Oropher that got the noose, and not Elrond, but I completely and absolutely deny the charges that I rigged the result. I tallied each vote that had a Tolkien rationale (in my human opinion, mind you). It was still your votes that I counted- and if the anti-Oropher camp had the majority in the keep-Tolkien-a-part-of-it spirit voting scheme that I had set up, then it was their majority that won the votes. Two more Tolkien-reasoned (even if rather warped, distorted, or parodied in its logic) and Elrond would be gone, and not Oropher. Again, I truly detest this whole situation that has come up. I regret that my actions made it so. But what has happened, has happened, and as Anguirel has pointed out, reversing my actions will only make things worse. If you want to "remedy" things, then I recommend that you all vote for Elrond today- and use something Tolkien wrote to back you up. ~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~ P.S. To everybody who has supported me, misguided or not, my thanks. To know that I haven't made completely irrational, stupid, and egotistic decisions is appreciated.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#454 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: dor-lomin, of course
Posts: 167
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Well, Phantom, the mod has just extended the voting time, so we failed in our last second attempt to take out Treebeard.
Rats.
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I used to be indecisive. Now, I'm not so sure. Last edited by lord of dor-lomin; 03-13-2006 at 01:09 AM. |
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#455 | ||
Hauntress of the Havens
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: IN it, but not OF it
Posts: 2,538
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Anyways, I still suggest that you do as the wise littlepoetman did and vote Celeborn. |
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#456 | |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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The fact that we have more material on Galadriel is a sign that Celeborn was indeed a loving and appreciative husband. Unlike the bigoted murdering culture-crushing hubristic Elendil. His wife was just his chattel...
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Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
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#457 |
Blithe Spirit
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,779
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I think it's all got a bit grumpy for me. Sorry.
But here's a parting gift for Anguirel, ++ELENDIL Reasons: a. Too many Elendili b. He got the Faithful out of Numenor, he'd done his bit. Why put him through the rigours of Survivor as well? c. Ang's right. WHY don't we know his wife's name? Kept barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen, was she, when the census taker came to call? For shame.
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Out went the candle, and we were left darkling |
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#458 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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At the risk of flogging a dead Khamul, let me try to explain further the reasoning that has led me to the position in which I now, reluctantly, find myself. Hopefully, this will enlighten those knuckle-headed types who refuse to accept any position which does not neatly conform to their own world-view (mentioning no names
![]() The problem is that, even with Formendacil’s explanation, we are still left with no clear understanding of the basis upon which votes will be counted or discounted. He has not explained which votes from yesterday were discounted and which were not. Even had he done so, the position would be far from clear. To take a phantom’s ever so unbiased ( ![]() If these votes are to be discounted, then why not also discount the votes for Oropher which simply relied on the fact that he is not mentioned by Tolkien much and so, by implication, did not do much? There is hardly any more intelligent reasoning involved. I can think of better reasons to give for evicting Oropher, such as that his rash charge in the War of the Last Alliance imperilled his side’s victory and got a lot of his people unnecessarily slain. So, if the votes of morm and Elu are to be discounted, then all of the votes for Oropher should also be discounted, leading to Elrond’s eviction. But I would count all of those votes. On that basis, the only votes for Elrond which might arguably be discounted are those which were cast by Diamond and Gil-Galad as they did not relate to the character in question but to game events. That would leave Elrond and Oropher on five votes each and lead to a double eviction. Possibly a fair result. Or one might take a different approach. A phantom discounts TORE’s vote because it refers back to spawn’s reasoning. On that basis, the votes of Celuien and (particularly) lord of dor-lomin would also need to be discounted, leaving Elrond with four votes and Oropher with three, resulting in Elrond’s eviction. You see the problem? Even with a vague indication that only Tolkien-based votes will count, the game is still riddled with grey areas. Too much scope for mod partiality and too little certainty to make the game enjoyable. As I have said, the way that this game has been played involves a fair bit of effort and it all seems rather pointless when that effort comes to nothing on the whim of the mod. Formendacil, you have said that you have not been rigging the votes. I fully accept that you did not act in bad faith. Nevertheless, the fact that you chose to count the votes for Khamul, even though this issue was raised (by me) during that day of voting, but discount certain votes for Elrond does not give me any comfort in this regard. Even though you may not have consciously have rigged it and thought that you were acting fairly, it is clear to me that there was a degree of partiality involved in the manner in which you exercised your discretion. In past games, the rule, I believe, has been, not that Tolkien-based reasoning was required, but that reasoning of some kind at least was required. In other words, votes for a character without more were not allowed. That works well, because it forces people to give some sort of reasoning (and therefore provokes discussion), but does not require value judgments on the part of the mod. In other words, it avoids the grey areas that my analysis above has highlighted and is easily enforceable in a non-partial way. Applying that rule, all of the votes yesterday, for both Elrond and Oropher, should have counted. I don’t expect any response to this, nor any concessions. I just wished to make my position crystal clear before politely withdrawing from the game. It was fun while it lasted. And for old time's sake, I shall contribute towards Lalaith's parting gift, adopting wholesale her immaculate reasoning (if that's allowed ![]() + + ELENDIL
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#459 |
Auspicious Wraith
Join Date: May 2002
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 4,859
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Phantom and Lord, you weirdos.
![]() Ents take too long to get to the point, eh? Did it ever occur to you that Ents live far longer than you do? 'Hasty' and 'Takes too long' are both relative descriptions. Considering how sweet and wonderful Treebeard was to Merry and Pippin even though they were on the opposite end of the scale, I think it's downright nasty and despicable to hate the poor Ent based on that. He could just as easily hate you for being unlike him but he's not like that. He's nice. As for not doing anything of value, was it not Johnny T. himself who said that it would be better if more of us valued the simple things in life. Just because Treebeard wasn't always going around picking fights in some foreign land you want to kick him out? He just wanted to take it easy! Plus, with the exception of Sauron, Treebeard could defeat anyone in that list in a fight – including your precious Elrond and Isildur. Treebeard is awesome. Case closed.
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Los Ingobernables de Harlond |
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#460 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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+ + Treebeard
If you leave him in some movie maker will make him out to be a doofus easily tricked by a couple of immature hobbitses.
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Aure Entuluva! |
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#461 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 8,093
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Ang has convinced me.
++Elendil Plus, I've never been an Elendil-fan.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#462 | ||||||||
Beloved Shadow
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Ang, there is something in your Elendil argument I don't agree with.
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And then this- Quote:
![]() Now, that said, I do believe the Elendili tribe should be trimmed soon, so a vote for Elendil isn't the worst thing in the world, though I'd rather vote off Anarion than Elendil. But the person I'd really like to take care of is Treebeard, so I will now respond to Eomer's defense of the stiff, inactive old bore. Quote:
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Take your time reading the line below, Eomer. Let it sink in. Treebeard....was...not....nice. This is what Treebeard said to Merry and Pippin in the chapter entitled "Treebeard"- Quote:
Treebeard needs to go. And now, to respond briefly to Sauce. Quote:
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When making a vote, you can't just claim personality flaws without a reason, particularly flaws that are completely absent from Tolkien's writings. That is extremely easy to understand, SPM, so don't even try and wiggle around and pretend that you don't get why morm and Elu's votes were likely not counted. I'm sure the two of them understand completely. The people who voted for Oropher put their finger cleary on the fact that not much was written about Oropher. The people who called Elrond a sissy or unwise or whatever weren't putting their finger clearly on anything at all. If you don't understand this then you are conciously trying not to. Quote:
TORE did not quote Spawn's reasoning, nor did he attempt to put the reasoning into his own words. All he said was that he was leaning towards her reasoning. Celuien and lord, on the other hand, both gave reasoning in their own words. That is an important difference. When you are at school, do teachers allow you to answer a question "I think the same thing as John does"? No, they expect you to give the answer in your own words, even if your reasoning is the same as John's. That is the situation here. Don't even try and argue it. It mirrors what is considered an acceptable practice elsewhere, so rather than complain or fight it just live with it.
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#463 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Lommy........<sigh> (I like Elendil)
++Treebeard He really didnt do anything, and besides, he could've prevented the attack on the Entwives. If the Ents checked up the Wives more regularly, maybe the Wives would have stayed West of the ANduin, and Sauron might have left them alone. SpM, you do have a point about character flaws. This may invalidate my own vote for Elrond, but to an extemt you are right. It is Tolkien-based if one makes a vote based on an assumption from character. However....I regret to say I can not find any direct proof that Elrond is a sissy. That is my perception of him (in a Mirthful way) But then there would be exact specifications on what can and can not be assumed, if assumption is allowed. But then a character like Oropher would be gone, only because 'he never did anything.' So, putting it in that perspective, I would then theoretically totally support Elrond, and campaign against 'idles', but then if that was true, Formendacil, or any other Survivor Mod should not have put Idles in to maintain that. Quote:
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Also, this was posted in Formendacil's opening post and other past Survivor Mod posts. Obviously this is Formen's game, but just a general idea of Survivor. Survivor Sillmarillion was a little bit different as it including reasoning on challenges, so i dont think its liable in this instance. Quote:
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________ Vt800 Last edited by Elu Ancalime; 03-03-2011 at 11:27 PM. |
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#464 | ||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#465 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: In a world grown ever smaller.
Posts: 678
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++Ohtar
If you think the Elindili need some thinning out, choose this guy. Once again, I don't know who he is. That should say it all. Lommy, I am shocked into speachlessness. What makes you not an Elindil fan? Is there some hidden blemish to his character? Some moral deficiency? As for this: Quote:
We don't the the man's wife's name because she never did anything important enough to be mentioned. That is her business. To have it used to tarnish Elindil's good name is entirely rediculous. I am certainly in for it. Here in the first round, I am having to throw out portest votes, and the choices of those are even pretty slim...
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I've got bridge club on Wednesday,
Archery on Thursday, Dancing on a Friday night! |
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#466 | ||||||
Dead Serious
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For that reason therefore, I am not going to go back and list all of yesterday's votes and explain which ones are acceptable, and which ones aren't- because with the eyes of everyone on me, and being in a different frame of mind, I may well count differently and I have no desire to be further accused of bias. What's done is done. I shall, however- AND ALL YE TAKE HEED- be counting votes today based on Tolkien-related criteria. I shall analyse each vote and give a verdict. I should have done this before, but I didn't, I apologise, and at least I am doing it now. Quote:
Mod's partiality? My dear SPM, have you completely forgotten the Silmarillion Survivor? Anguirel was partial to certain parties- very partial to certain parties. He gave several characters a free bye into the later rounds by not introducing them till then, and (probably faulty) memory seems to recall him summarily killing off some of the characters simply because their "time had come". Quote:
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As for you raising "the issue" on the day of Khamûl's eviction, I maybe should have cracked down then on non-eligible voting. In my mind, I didn't want to be overly dictatorial: in other words, I didn't want something overblown like this to occur. My original intention in stipulating Tolkien-based rationale for votes was to discourage one-liner posts. Therefore, I didn't want to be putting the Mod's boot down on the necks of the players so eagerly. I wanted, rightly or wrongly, to wait a couple days and see if a trend towards greater post length/reasoning developed. It didn't... That I chose yesterDay to put my foot down was, I thought, a somewhat politically astute choice. Neither the Elrond party nor the Oropher party was winning by a landside (one vote's difference, I believe). Nor did I REALLY care to save either character, so I hoped to avoid accusations of bias. I PREFERRED Elrond, but not with the passionate drive of the Phantom. Quote:
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If however, you feel that this game is rigged, unfair, and unjust, or that there is too much bad blood here to continue, then yes, you ought to leave. No sense in prolonging this pained situation longer... And, regarding prolonging this pained situation, is there even a consensus that I should bother trying to keep running this game? I don't want to step down. As Mod, I thought I had a pretty good game going. I was proud, in a parental way perhaps, of the alliances and petty grudges the players had developed. I thought I had put a pretty good cast of characters together, and that I doing a good, clean job of keeping my Moderator's Nose clean and unbiased. I have been more than a little offended by the accusations against me, and although I don't bear any one particular 'Downer, or even a particular four or five 'Downers any ill will outside of this thread, I am irked at how large an issue this has grown into. I remain, ~Michael A. Joosten - Survivor: The Second Age Moderator~ P.S. Analysis of votes coming up in the next post, to be followed by the official Day End. Any votes cast after this post will be counted towards tomorrow's tally.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#467 | |
Dead Serious
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Under the system of "a vote cast is a vote counted", one can skim a thread pretty quick when counting votes. It seems that I miscounted on the original tally, since I trust your accounting here to be accurate. It's entirely possible that if you went back to Day 1, 2, 3, 4, or whatnot, you'd find a similar mistake. I'm very much human, and I probably missed someone's vote in the tallying. My apologies. Nobody's vote was disqualified under the "a vote case is a vote counted" system.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#468 | ||||||||||||
Dead Serious
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Okay, let’s being this… starting from the top:
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This vote is COUNTED. Quote:
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COUNTED. Quote:
However, Celuien moves on in her second paragraph to give a firm, fine basis for a vote. She references Elendil’s relationship as to Isildur, as father, and references the events that took place in Tolkien’s world just after his death, laying the blame, right or wrong, at Elendil’s feet. This vote is, therefore, easily COUNTED. Quote:
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Hence, it is the second paragraph here that allows this vote to be counted. The Phantom directly refers to the unhastiness of Ents, the fact that they generally remain aloof, and their separation from the Entwives. I must say, though, that did we not know that Treebeard was guilty of all these general Entish tendencies, I probably wouldn’t count this vote, since it isn’t directly related to Treebeard himself. However, we DO know that Treebeard was personally guilty of all these Entish faults, and so the vote is COUNTED. Quote:
Lalaith’s first reason, too many Elendili, on its own, would discount it. What has this to do with Elendil himself? From an in-Middle-Earth perspective, the Elendili were vastly outnumbered anyway. Her second reason is valid, since it refers to something that Elendil actually did. Although voting people off out of mercy seems a bit counter-intuitive, it’s Tolkien-based, so I’m more than willing to let it stand. Her third reason would also be valid. Tolkien DIDN’T ever give us Mrs. Elendil’s name. Illogical speculation related thereto is a permissible rationale for voting. Quote:
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This vote is NOT COUNTED. Quote:
COUNTED, albeit a bit grudgingly. Quote:
COUNTED. Quote:
The only rationale offered is that the Elendili need thinning (see my comments on Lalaith’s Reason 1 for why this is discounted) and that Eonwe doesn’t know who Ohtar is. NOT COUNTED. Okay, now, here we are at the end of all votes... for toDay... The official records post will be up with these results momentarily.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#469 |
Dead Serious
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The Twelth day of voting was deeply troubled by arguments amongst the voting spectators. Many disappeared in the disturbance. All Arda Envinyanta seemed stirred by the accusations of corruption. In the end, after a comprehensive vote-counting, the voting fell as follows:
Celeborn: II Elendil: III Fangorn (Treebeard): IIII EDIT: Okay, here's the reason why I shouldn't be trusted, if any reason exists... I just switched up the positions of Elendil and Fangorn... I even had them counted right, too. So, the true tally is: Celeborn: II Fangorn: III Elendil: IIII Meaning that this is nonsense: NOT EDIT: Perhaps it was a subtle revenge at the often wordy Moderator that Treebeard was evicted, perhaps it was simply a strike at Eomer of the Rohirrim. Whatever the case, Fangorn of Fangorn was out of the game. Those remaining: Tribe of the Noldor: Elrond Peredhil Galadriel Celebrimbor Tribe of the Sindar: Celeborn Círdan Celebrían Tribe of the Númenoreans: Elros Tar-Minyatur Tar-Míriel Tribe of the Elendili: Amandil Anárion Ohtar Tribe of the Other Speakers: Narvi Fangorn Fimbrethil Tribe of the Baddies: Sauron The Witch-king Day 13 may now begin. I'd like to hope that my voting-analysis will clear things up a little, and that Day 13 will see a few more votes for characters (and really, having seen what you need to do, is it all THAT hard?) than today. 'Tis is truly ignominious way for Elendil to go, with four votes out of nine... P.S. Thanks to the Phantom for pointing out my counting error.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
Last edited by Formendacil; 03-14-2006 at 01:16 AM. Reason: Mistakes, o' course... Silly mistakes, too... |
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#470 |
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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I will give things another try, since I am already having plus plus withdrawals. Provided you continue to give reasons for any future disqualifications I think that gives me at least something to measure off of. Of course, once the werewolf game finally starts I may be gone anyway, screaming "Don't kill me!" hysterically and unable to concentrate on anything else.
Anyway, on to it. If I haven't rambled too long, I may just be getting in the first vote of the day. In my mind, and this may sound strange but it is true, the most damning thing Elendil ever did was name his sword Narsil. Of course, technically Tolkien only says, "...and it was named Narsil" but we can safely assume that Elendil, being the first owner of said sword, would have been the one to christen it. Narsil is, forgive me, the most butt-ugly name in all of Tolkiendom. It sounds like the bastard love child of an air freshener and a hair removal product. Thank goodness Aragorn had the sense to rename it. Wouldn't you rather weild Andúril? I know you would. I'll get you, my pretty, + + Elendil, and your little sword too!
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
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#472 | |
Beloved Shadow
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I think we should just assume that Elendil is dead, because the post in which Lord Formendacil counts everyone's votes shows Elendil with the most counted votes. Unless there was an error in that post.
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the phantom has posted.
This thread is now important. |
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#473 |
Eidolon of a Took
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: my own private fantasy world
Posts: 3,460
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So I voted for a dead guy? I've spoken ill of the dead? I've stomped all over Elendil's grave, adding insult to mortal injury? I am SO bad.
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All shall be rather fond of me and suffer from mild depression. |
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#474 |
Dead Serious
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Good grief!
I am far too tired to be up at this late hour... look at the silly mistakes I've been making. I'll fix it...
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#475 |
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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OK, I have decided to continue playing, primarily for three reasons.
First, the basis upon which votes are to be counted and discounted is now abundantly clear. Secondly, I cannot resist a bit of flattery. ![]() And thirdly, while I still have misgivings over the events leading to the evictions of Khamul and Oropher, Formendacil has put a lot of work into this game and has, on the whole, been doing an excellent job. I would add that I do not necessarily oppose the Mod being partial. As you say, Anguirel was incredibly biased in his game, but he was so obvious and elegant in his partiality that it was rather charming. My main gripe was that we knew not where we stood, since the basis upon which votes were to be counted or discounted was entirely unclear and it seemed wrong to me to take advantage of that to promote a previously undisclosed partiality. However, that has now been rectified as we now know where we stand, and I thank you for that, Formendacil. I actually think that you should, going forward, discount reasoning that relies (without more) entirely on the reasoning of others, as it makes it too easy to put in a vote in support of someone. But you should, of course, give notice if you intend to follow that course. I should perhaps make it clear that, my return notwithstanding, the Alliance of Ultra-DOOM as an entity is no longer participating in this game. It may return one day. But, for now, my participation in this game is as an independent. I am willing to cut deals with other players, but will remain, in general, unaffiliated. And I make no bones about the fact that I dedicate myself, in the first instance, to the eviction of Elrond. I may vote elsewhere if I can see any benefit in doing so but, for the most part, my vote is likely to be for Elrond each Day until (hopefully) he is evicted. And so, without further ado: + + ELROND My reasoning. First, he should, by rights, already have gone. ![]() Secondly, he has already had a number of tries at winning a Survivor contest and failed on each occasion. His desperation to win is rather unappealing and faintly sad in one who should be dignified. Thirdly, he is a cissy. Of course, none of those reasons will count. And so, fourthly: It seems entirely inappropriate to me, in the midst of the turmoil of the Second Age, for one who should have been contributing so much more to the struggle to absent himself from it for large periods in order to establish what was, effectively, a Middle-earth hippy commune. All that telling tales round the fireplace, singing “Tra-la-la-lally, down here in the valley” and communing with nature is all very well, and charming in its place, but not when the forces of Sauron are encamped on one’s doorstep. It might be said that establishing a stronghold and defending it with great power provided a valuable refuge for Elves in such a time of trouble. But that, surely, is not the true Noldorin way. Any Noldor worth his salt should be looking for any opportunity to engage the enemy and be willing to nobly sacrifice himself and his people in a vain but glorious effort to make his mark. Did Elrond not learn from the First Age that hiding away in a secret refuge very rarely comes to any good and, at the very least, does irreparable harm to one’s reputation? Just ask yourself. Which First Age Noldorian gained the greatest notoriety. Feanor or Turgon? Elrond was the Turgon of his Age. To his credit, Elrond did march with Gil-Galad in the War of the Last Alliance, but Gil-Galad was clearly so unimpressed with his battle skills, after all that arty, tree-hugging Imladris stuff, that he relegated him to the role of a mere standard bearer. “You just carry that pretty little flag, Elrond, and keep yourself out of any trouble,” he no doubt said. And Elrond even bungled the one serious job which fell to him in the entire endeavour, that of persuading Isildur to destroy the Ring. Had he been able to accomplish just that one, simple task, a lot of fuss and bother would have been avoided. I implore you, my fellow players, free this game from the stranglehold of the phantom’s machinations and let justice be done. Evict Elrond today. Oh, and if you do decide to vote for him, don't forget to give sound Tolkien-based reasons. ![]()
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#476 |
Byronic Brand
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: The 1590s
Posts: 2,778
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Elrond was not Turgon, because Rivendell was not Gondolin. Rivendell was a happy! accepting! nice! place. It had no element of Elven scariness and hauteur, while retaining Elven culture and skill.
Without Rivendell: All the survivors from Eregion would have been massacred Sauron would have conquered Eriador The line of Arnor could not have survived And the sweet little Hobbits would be completely doomed... That apart: I support hippy communes. What is wrong with peace, love and brotherhood? And so I shall vote once again against the supreme exemplar of fascistic, militaristic, non-hung loose unchilledness. ++SAURON Just like Elrond, he's been in every Survivor so far; but he won't admit it, hiding beneath aliases like "Gorthaur" or "The Necromancer". He's even come second once, but he's still not satisfied. He thinks he has a "right" to win; he needs to be disillusioned, and soon. I'm talking to an electorate that has, despite some blips, generally supported the downtrodden and relatively obscure. Anarion, Ohtar and Amandil have been protected before their illustrious relatives. Can such an electorate allow Sauron-the most predictable, tedious, megalomaniac candidate of them all-to progress?
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Among the friendly dead, being bad at games did not seem to matter -Il Lupo Fenriso |
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#477 | |||||
Corpus Cacophonous
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: A green and pleasant land
Posts: 8,390
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Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind! |
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#478 |
Riveting Ribbiter
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Assigned to Mordor
Posts: 1,767
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No! Not Elrond again!
There is another Elf far more worthy of eviction. I speak of the responsibility shirking Cirdan. While Elrond was in Rivendell, defending a stronghold against Sauron and Celeborn/Galadriel did the same in Lorien, what was Cirdan doing? Nothing. Sitting at the Havens building ships and just waiting to leave for Elvenhome. Further proof of his complete disinterest in aiding the Free Folk of Middle-earth is demonstrated in his giving his ring away to Gandalf. Obviously he was looking for someone else to take over the job he was entrusted with when given his ring. Thus, Elrond deserves to stay. Cirdan does not. ++CIRDAN PS I'm willing to vote for Sauron But not yet... I'll change my vote if necessary to save Elrond.
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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#479 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Pennsylvania, WtR, passed Sarn Gebir: Above the rapids (1239 miles) BtR, passed Black Rider Stopping Place (31 miles)
Posts: 1,548
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+ + Tar-Miriel
Suffice it to say she was no Boudica (Boadicea). Numenorean feminists must have been very disappointed in her. There could have been a cool civil war, with perhaps elvsees with bright, shining swords helping out the king's (queen's) men/fighters/whatever. It's difficult to imagine Eowyn, Galadriel, Lobelia, etc. reacting in such a supine manner. (Picture of Lobelia going after Ar-Pharazon with her umbrella). ![]()
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Aure Entuluva! Last edited by Tuor of Gondolin; 03-14-2006 at 07:29 AM. |
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#480 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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While his skills may be interesting, such as reading moon letters and calling large counsels to argue the fate of the entire free world, he really doesn't do much to help his tribe, therefore for staying at home and sending others to their doom while he remains in his comortable homely house reading hidden letters on maps ++Elrond.
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