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08-08-2007, 11:01 AM | #441 | |
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Tolkein's word is final - Sauron, then Gandalf the White is most dangerous in ME. This means Gandalf must have more sorcerous tools of destruction under his sleave if he chooses to use them than anything else save Sauron. This does not prove Gandalf cannot be defeated by a lesser creature, but it makes it damn more likely. End of story . . .LOL |
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08-09-2007, 11:52 AM | #442 | |
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There were only five in PJ's adaptation, so maybe in the movie Gandalf does face all Nine. He wasn't at Weathertop when Strider leads the Hobbits there. Gandalf obviously left in much haste, not even having time to scratch a G on a rock. One would then conclude that Nine were at least a match for the Grey Pilgrim. If, in RotK, the Witch-King were made 9X more powerful, he'd then be able alone to have the same effect on Gandalf the Grey. As we're dealing with PJ's Gandalf the White, I'd then conclude that the WK's power was increased only three-fold.
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08-09-2007, 12:30 PM | #443 | |
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Gandalf the Grey was not chased off by four Nazgul - he wanted to lure them away from the Ring. Also, when as Grey he could have chosen not to kill the Nazgul, by the simple logic that they were a threat, but not a threat of Sauron's proportions or that of a Balrog. His role was first & foremost Steward of Middle Earth, meaning that if he could hold off the Nazgul away from the Ring for as long as possible, that should be all that he must do. If there was a serious chance of the Nine killing Gandalf at Weathertop like with the Balrog in Moria, I have no doubt that then, & only then, would you have seen the REAL Gandalf the Grey uncloaked. He said he was hard put to, as though he meant:"Ok they were were tough but I was never in any serious trouble". But he was hardly in the state of shock & fear when he retold the encounter with the Balrog to the 3 Hunters in the Two Towers, & that was even when he was Gandalf the White! Last edited by Mansun; 08-09-2007 at 12:41 PM. |
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08-10-2007, 06:06 PM | #444 | |
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Also, wasn't the comment of Gandalf being greater than the Nine said by Aragorn before the Witch-King's "power boost" as well? I vaguely recall Gandalf saying something like that to Frodo in Bag End in FOTR as well, though I am not sure.
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08-12-2007, 02:32 AM | #445 |
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The Mover by Design
I have always felt that Gandalf does defeat Sauron, and The Witch-king for that matter. It is not by outward blasts of power that he achieves this, it is by wisdom, foresight and being one step ahead of the game. Gandalf releases Theoden from the grip of Saruman therefore allowing the Rohirrim to turn up at The Battle of The Pelennor Fields just in time, and it is Gandalf who convinces Elrond to allow the two youngers hobbits to be part of The Fellowship therefore allowing Merry to be present during Eowyns battle with The Witch-king, if not for Gandalf being the prime mover of the forces of good, then the scene at the Gates of Minas Tirith may have been different. Gandalf achieves the prime directive by wisdom and not by the power of force, this was his mission, not to oppose Sauron by way of Power.
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08-12-2007, 08:54 PM | #446 | |
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Nope, I don't buy it, and I've provided sound arguments against it. You can believe what you want (and I know you do, facts be damned), but don't play the card like it's a conceded point. |
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08-15-2007, 11:15 AM | #447 | |
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Gandalf vs the Witch King should favour Gandalf in the same way as a battle between Gandalf & Sauron would favour Sauron. Last edited by Mansun; 08-15-2007 at 11:32 AM. |
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08-23-2007, 11:56 AM | #448 | |||
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From 'The Siege of Gondor' as found in HoME, The War of the Ring (text exactly as it appears):
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Also, being a sorcerer, could the W-K pumped himself up just for the battle, spending all his power for one last throw, knowing that if he won the day, he could sleep it off for a few eons? And, like the darkness (you had to squint to see it in PJ's version), did his overamp run out too soon, leaving him vulnerable to Merry and Éowyn?
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08-23-2007, 02:25 PM | #449 | |
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The Witch King would have been at his greatest power when Sauron still had the Ring during the second age in the battle against the Last Alliance. Since he could not even make an impact in battle there, Sauron himself had to come to rescue him & the others. |
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08-24-2007, 08:46 AM | #450 | |
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08-24-2007, 10:40 AM | #451 |
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Who here honestly thought that Gandalf would triumph against the Balrog when they came toe to toe in Moria? The advantage seemed with the Balrog at the time just before they started battle. Here we seem to have a similar situation, the Witch King seems to have the greater menace at face value, but who is it that would have ultimately triumphed?
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08-24-2007, 03:38 PM | #452 | |
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Other that that, it was spot on, wasn't it? alatar keeps posting on this thread (1) to provide additional information for others from the Books! and (2) knows that if this thread cracks the 500 post barrier that the Barrow Wight himself will provide alatar with an electric dog polisher signed by Billy Boyd.
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08-26-2007, 05:46 PM | #453 | |
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Now where was I... Oh yes, the start of my ranting, This was a total injustice to Gandalf's character and if they should do something like that then PJ should of had Gandalf kill the WK since he wasn't a living man either he was a wizard... Sooo I have finished if anyone has anything to add to that then they can post it.
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08-28-2007, 10:10 AM | #454 |
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Was Merry's blade that killed the Witch King mentioned as enchanted in the films? I do not recall that it was, meaning that any fine blade such as Orcrist (as far as the film is concerned) could probably pierce the Witch King. If so, it is definately advantage Gandalf in the film.
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08-28-2007, 11:10 AM | #455 | |
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08-28-2007, 02:44 PM | #456 | |
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08-28-2007, 02:55 PM | #457 |
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Neither does Merry, apparently.
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08-29-2007, 12:00 PM | #458 |
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08-29-2007, 12:08 PM | #459 |
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On Merry not needing an enchanted blade, someone told me once that Merry, and for the same reason Eowyn, was able to kill the Nazgul because he wasn't a man. He, or she (I can't remember who I was talking to), thought that when the Witchking said no man can kill me, that he meant that only women or other races could.
Just thought I would add another explaination. Maybe that's what PJ thought
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08-29-2007, 12:20 PM | #460 | |
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A woman was needed in the story to give some noble credibility to women in Middle Earth. Otherwise women would be seen as the maids & housewives, & not the brave, noble cavalry sort which few could yet demonstrate. The killing of the Witch King in the manner of a woman also makes him look very foolsh of his overconfidence, even severely over-rated as an opponent. A good example of machiavellianism. |
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08-29-2007, 12:28 PM | #461 |
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I know. But you can't argue with some people. He held to it, and I didn't have a book with me so I couldn't prove him wrong.
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08-29-2007, 12:43 PM | #462 |
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Remember when (at least in the books) Gandalf states that a "power" exists in the Shire as well? Methinks that Hobbits create a zone of chaos wherever they go. Look what happened when one or more of the four were present:
And so on. The reason that book Aragorn quarantines the Shire is not for the benefit for the Little Folk, but to protect the rest of us from them.
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08-29-2007, 01:45 PM | #463 | |
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A very good point, but a little astray from the thread though. Last edited by Mansun; 08-29-2007 at 01:49 PM. |
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08-30-2007, 11:17 AM | #464 |
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Maybe. Just showing how one can observe 'A;' observe 'B;' notice that when B occurs A is always in the vicinity and therefore conclude that A is a possible catalyst for B. They may or may not be related, but you can post without exploring the true relationship.
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08-30-2007, 08:53 PM | #465 | |
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The prophecy "not by the hand of man shall he fall" was made by Glorfindel at Fornost, a thousand years before. But, interestingly, long after the sword had been made.
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08-31-2007, 12:22 PM | #466 | |
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09-02-2007, 02:22 AM | #467 | |
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Speaking to everyone here, since Gandalf's purpose in LOTR wasn't to save the day for the people, could PJ have made the scene to show that the people of Middle-Earth would have to save themselves? To me, all the scene appears to do is reinforce that idea. I don't see how Gandalf being bested by the Witch-King is an insult to his character--he just lost a fight. His character is still intact.
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09-02-2007, 05:22 AM | #468 | |
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By the way, Eru himself increased Gandalf's power for good measure, with a prior knowledge of knowing what Sauron may do to increase the Witch King's power. With this in mind, Eru would not have left a debt in Gandalf's power versus the Witch King! |
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09-02-2007, 05:50 AM | #469 |
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In this context there's a problem with the scene on the walls where Pippin 'saves' Gandalf from an Orc- notwithstanding Gandalf the White's explicit statement in the book (The White Rider) that he was immune to ordinary weapons (even Anduril).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
09-02-2007, 06:52 AM | #470 |
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This is the problem. Gandalf the White is lying on the ground looking fearful! He who took on a Balrog and walked the halls of Dol Guldur was afraid. Peter Jackson could have redeemed himself just by adding a faint smile on the Wizard's lips, as if to say, "You flying fool! While you're here knocking me about, 7000 horsepersons just showed up on your flank, and two of those riders hold your doom in their hands."
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09-02-2007, 11:12 AM | #471 | |||||
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All of this is virtually irrelevant anyway since the indisputable fact is that the literal interpretation of the note has not been established. Quote:
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09-03-2007, 09:33 AM | #472 |
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This qoute wins the argument in favour of Gandalf the White, & virtually proves that he would indeed be victorious against the Witch King in battle. Not that this counts too much in context with the film!
Last edited by Mansun; 09-04-2007 at 03:37 PM. |
09-08-2007, 12:28 AM | #473 |
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Im going to go back to some earlier points by narfforc as I think he is dead on. From the text we see that Gandalf proved greater than the Witch-King in two ways.
First, Gandalf proved indeed to be the 'greater' when it came to power. The Witch-King comes bursting through the gate, Gandalf is the only one who stands in his way (completely unafraid) and ready to confront him. The Nazgul's greatest weapon (we are told) is their fear, and they have 'no great physical strength against the fearless.' (Letter 210). The Witch-King naturally plays to his greatest asset...fear. This doesn't work as Gandalf is unafraid and even intent on chasing after the Witch-King had Pippin not come and told him about Faramir. The second way is that Gandalf proved to be the better commander. To expand on what narfforc said, who was it that healed Theoden? Who was it that got the Rohirrim to fight against Saruman and ultimately come in to save the day? Who was it that instructed the Rohirrim to go to Gondor's aid and hence their arrival catching Mordor off guard, and the Witch-King to flee as the Rohirrim came up on the flank? Gandalf. So, Gandalf not only overcomes the Witch-King's greatest weapon (fear), but also proves to be the better commander as The Witch-King is caught off guard by Rohan's arrival. Gandalf in both ways proves to be greater, and I cannot see how anyone cannot claim that in the confrontation with the Witch-King that Gandalf did not get the better of him.
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09-11-2007, 12:21 PM | #474 |
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Gandalf the White would have creamed the Witch King, end of story. Anyone who thinks otherwise is a fool: the Witch King is not a maia like the Balrog, just a powerful sorcerer.
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09-11-2007, 01:03 PM | #475 |
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Sauron the Great would cream any being within Middle Earth as he too is a maia; to think that a mere hobbit (merely piling on after the pummeling Sauron took by one elf with spear and one human with sword) could bring him down is the extent of folly.
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09-11-2007, 02:02 PM | #476 | |
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09-11-2007, 02:19 PM | #477 | |
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The most that he can do to Sauron and stay true is to harry the Big Eye's plans.
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09-11-2007, 02:37 PM | #478 |
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Well my post was purely hypothetical. I realize there was no practical way for the duel to occur, and I know that Gandalf had the sense not to try to arrange it. However, if the confrontation had simply happened--say, Gandalf stumbles into Sauron's camp while everyone but Sauron have gone fishing--Gandalf would have to decide either to flee, or pull out all the stops and lay the smack down to the maximum of his potential. He already abandoned success once (though not the Rules) when he chose to confront the Balrog. Maybe he would have taken his chances with Sauron. It's more likely that he would have fled, knowing his character, but it also probably depends somewhat on the timing of the hypothetical run-in: if Sauron had come out instead of the Mouth and requested a throw-down (yeah, right!), I'll bet he would have accepted. At the very least it would occupy Sauron at a crucial moment. Books-wise, not Jackson-wise (re: Eyeball vs. Real Deal).
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09-12-2007, 09:03 AM | #479 | |
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I find myself dragged back to this long winded thread. As I said on previous posts: David slew Goliath Tolkien states (published in unfinished tales I think) that the Istari can be wounded and suffer injuries as mortals can. Yes, Gandalf may well be more powerful than the WK, but that is not saying he cannot be defeated by him. The WK could get a 'lucky strike' in. If Gandalf is all powerful, why doesn't he just through a ring of protection around all of Minas Tirith and protect it that way? The question asked years back at the start of this thread- could the WK defeat Gandalf - I say he might have had a chance - As I said before as well, LOTR is not simply black and white - if the strong always won then Sauron would not have been defeated. |
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09-12-2007, 11:03 AM | #480 | |
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If you draw fire with fire, the bigger fire will prevail. This is not a football match, whereby the weaker side can sometimes get the better of a much stronger one. Gandalf vs the Witch King is one gigantic power against a great power, the former wins hands down. The only reason this topic has brought up a debate is due to PJ's scene, & the fact that Tolkein never really wanted us to know how weak or powerful the Witch King was. All we know is Gandalf is more powerful than a Balrog, a great maia & servant of Morgoth which is itself almost on level terms with Sauron (without his Ring) & does not even necessarliy serve Sauron. I refuse to believe nor have ever heard of anything that could suggest the Witch King is on this supernatural god-like level of power that the maia have. Gandalf died when he killed the Balrog - would this have happened if he had killed the Witch King too? This could also be why he was reluctant to kill him. Also, if the Witch King is anything like as powerful as a Balrog, why wasn't Gandalf petrified with fear when he faced the Witch King as when he encountered the Balrog? Last edited by Mansun; 09-12-2007 at 11:11 AM. |
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