TIG CXVII: GAME Thread:

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

To be precise, I don't think Kath has had the chance to tell anybody anything. It is the conclusion of the Dead based at most partly on the info they had and their own conclusions. But if I am right, she did not dream you - or she might have just this Night, but that would not have been transmitted on before Hui left.

Confirmed. Kath joined the DT the moment Hui left it - ie they did not interact on the DT.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I see. I somehow read it that you were just responding to him and starting something new, especially since you were talking about something the Dead supposedly knew before but answering in present.

But okay. As I said I'm posting in-between work so my reading comprehension may suffer.

Ahh I see how it could look like that with the "..." almost as if I was trailing off. So, anyway, yes I think Pitch is suspected by the dead because that looked like something wolves might have cooked up to draw out the seer. Even if Kath never had to technically reveal, unfortunately it made her come out more forcefully to secure sally's lynch.

I agree with your look there into Kath's dreams. It would appear Lottie and sally were 2 of them, as for the third and for her dream last night, I'm not sure we'll know for certain until tomorrow. But we'll have to get to tomorrow first.

And with the dead voting today, they'll know Kath's dreams. Something to consider about who they vote for today.

What are your thoughts on Lommy?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

What are your thoughts on Lommy?

I just started a reread of her, but since I'm doing it within rather random intervals, it is going slowly. My reread of Day 1 so far at least more or less confirms my generic impression: in terms of posts, nothing that would dramatically stand out by itself. If anything, I would look for some broader pattern; for that I have to finish my reread first. She could be something of a submarine, theoretically. But then again I'd expect a Wolf-Lommy to stand out more in some more ways. So not ruling out anything, but not the person who I'd consider the most suspicious of all. I want to finish reading the rest of everything.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

The only way I would know she was lying - not believe, Boro, but know, a word you're playing much too fast-and-loose with! - would have been if I were
- either the real Seer
- or her packmate.
If she'd been for real, she might have saved the Day. I had to find out.

I do play with the word "know" too often, another one of my flaws. So, in fairness here is what I "know" about for certain...

The messages the dead received from "Iluvatar" were:

1. At least 1 wolf was in the people who received votes in Day 1. We have found one wolf in that group...sally.

This message cannot be used to clear Morsul or Pitch of being wolves. At the same time, this message can not be used to suspect them either. For as far as we know that information was accurate and fulfilled "at least one wolf in this group"

2. I still don't know what was in Form's second message, it looked like it had something to do with Lottie. From the look of Huey's messages today, it looks like this second message doesn't contain information that will help us today. Can you confirm this Huey? Does the 2nd message Form try to give us (Post #276) help us in narrowing down another wolf or innocent?

3. Soriman is a known innocent. This doesn't come from Kath's dreams, Huey wouldn't have information on who Kath has dreamed of. This appears to be the information, that was selected by sally, to give to the Dead thread. And Huey, confirmation if this is correct and "known" for certain?

4. There are 4 innocents remaining, 2 wolves. If I was assured my lynch wouldn't deliver victory for the wolves (That would make it 3-2, and then night kill 2-2. But how does the dead vote play into that scenario?)

5. I know I'm innocent...which I grant means nothing to any one who is an ordo like myself, but hopefully it scares the remaining wolves, because even an unconfirmed ordo-Boro can be a pain in their sides

To hopefully help get the trust of the fellow loyalists to my lords Barahir and Beren, as I said yesterday my steering days are over. And as I said today, it's not breaking news that I lay out plans, and bait, and traps. But today, those days are over for me too...with the loss of Lottie and Kath there's no point in trying to lay out cryptic messages that I intended to confuse the wolves with...which also does have a habit of catching some ordinary innocent along the way. Yes, I'm still saddened by my role in Huey's lynch. But for that, you see I take the blame for my part in it, but have others? Pitch? Lommy? Legate? You have blood on your hands as much as I do.

So here it all is, and may you all judge for yourself the truth of the matter.

Day 1 - I just like having fun and bantering with people. I hate voting on Day 1, but I love participating in them. I took something Pitch said about me as a seer hint:

Originally Posted by Pitch #54

I like Boro's reply to Lottie in #39. Actually make that 'I really like Boro so far, period'.

I went into Day 1 and the following night thinking Pitch was the seer, dreamed I was innocent, because I didn't think of any reason why 1 person would say something fairly definitive about me that early.

Day 2 - In my head still thinking Pitch is the seer and I was waiting for something more about Lottie. Under my assumption if Pitch was the seer, he might have followed up with trying to dream of Lottie, since he pointed out liking my Day 1 posts and questions.

So Day 2 I was planning on going full bore towards Lottie, if I got any hint that Pitch dreamed her role. That way I would hopefully be "protecting" who I believed to be the seer, but making it look like my Day 1 vote turned into a Night dream of a guilty Lottie.

But I saw no such hints that Pitch knew Lottie's role, so I scrapped that plan and went full out towards what looked like the most suspicious thing from Days 1 and 2. Legate's vote analysis. Unfortunately it just ended up pitting Huey and myself against each other and I did not see the error of my ways until after Huey's lynch.

Day 3 - Lottie was the ranger and now dead. Form delivers a message that at least one from Morsul, sally or Pitch is a wolf. So I'm questioning now..wait Boro, is Pitch the seer?

Originally Posted by Me in #260

Pitch - because he cautioned me yesterday about who I was trusting, but he himself has seemed to be pretty trusting towards me

Pitch responds:

Originally Posted by Pitch in 282

You got it backwards. That was me cautioning myself against being too trusting towards you and sally.

So that pretty much settled it for me that he wasn't the seer. And now Pitch, this is why I suspect you for your part in sally's fake reveal yesterday.

I am no wolf, and not a betrayer. Something I am reminding myself, still being troubled by Huey's lynch, even though I plan to bait wolves, that can lead to catching unintended innocents. It is my flaw...just because in my head I thought Pitch was the seer, doesn't mean he intended to give me any such reason to believe it. Honestly, it's not quite adding up, because his response in 282 looks honest of "that wasn't for you at all. I was telling myself not to be too trusting of you and sally." Also, if Pitch was intending to look like the seer why would he press sally into trying to reveal it?

What say you Pitch? Now that you can see my thought process and judge for yourself the truth of it.

[Thinlómien]

I don't understand Hui's posting. Unless it is to say that the dead think Soriman is innocent and Pitch is guilty? That's what I'm getting. But given that Kath joined the dead when Hui departed, these cannot be seer dreams. Update: Hui seems to have confirmed they know about Soriman and are guessing about Pitch. I would like to know how they're sure they know, but I guess I'll just have to take a leap of faith.

I'm seeing a Morsul-Boro alliance out in the open, and I'm pretty sure that's how the two of them would play it if they were the remaining wolves: appear decisively in the start of the Day when the Europeans are sleeping, direct the discussion where they want (ie towards the most guilty looking other player, ie Pitch), and not suspect each other. I'm mildly alarmed.

Pitch doesn't look too good, but I can kind of sympathise with what he said about his reaction to Sally yesterDay, and my own was not dissimilar - an innocent with no better knowledge would naturally fliflop.

I'm still intending to look at Kath myself because I don't trust anyone else to do it without twisting things, but continuing off Legate's post #430, I agree Kath likely dreamed of Sally, and I would hesitate to say she dreamed of wolf-Pitch or wolf-Legate, or she'd have come out yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Boro

This is another thing I don't get. So, this was the Day 2 vote, so you say you want to know something I'm scheming (which looks to me like you're trying to make something I do sound suspicious) but conclude "hopefully knowing Huey's role will help."

I'm not sure if this is breaking news to anyone, but I'm always up to something. Being up to something doesn't mean it's an evil something, and to call it "scheming" applies that it is evil. That's not really what bothers me though, because like I said it's not breaking news I try to lay out bait and traps. What bothers me is Lommy is framing myself negatively (I'm "scheming"), but instead of actually voting for me, she voted for Huey to "hopefully" find something out about me.

If you're innocent, you're "having a plan", if you're guilty, you're "scheming"? Ok, joking aside, I did and do think you're making some weird maneuvers which I haven't been able to follow. Naturally, that makes me worry if they're good or evil. Here the "scheming" you were doing was whatever was the point of pursuing Legate for the first half of the Day, then dropping it and going for Huin instead. I don't think it was wrong of me to think of that as nefarious. In fact, I still think it entirely possible that you and Legate are the remaining wolves (in which case, toDay has not started very well). And yeah, I still don't know what the back-and-forth between you, Huin and Legate was about. It's hard to believe you'd all be innocent. I'm planning to look at that toDay. And as for why I voted for Huin and not you - I thought you might be "scheming" but it was not my main line of suspicion. In fact, if you look back, I thought the order of suspiciousness in your trio was Huin > Legate > you (which was likely stupid of me, given even the statistic likelihood of one of you two others being a wolf).

Originally Posted by Boro

But that's not what Kath said. #322

Pitch said that Kath had not yet said something about Morsul. Her "fair point" is that she had not said anything yet about Morsul, and then proceeds to do a Morsul-analysis.

No, I thought Kath was referring to the first part of the thing she quoted (Pitch pointing out that she and Morsul are in tandem), you think she was referring to the latter part of the thing she quoted (that she hasn't said anything about Morsul). Looking at Kath's post again, I can see what you mean, and I actually agree your interpretation is more likely than mine. It makes more sense, especially now in retrospect knowing that Kath and Morsul cannot be wolvish packmates.

Also, getting weird vibes from Boro's last post which is basically just answering questions about himself no one asked and lamenting his wrong decisions (such as voting for Hui) in a way that makes him sound like a self-conscious wolf.

Okay, now off to do some rereading.

PS. Not sure what to make of the fact that Legate seems oblivious to the fact that there are still 2 wolves among us. I don't think he's suspected anyone in his several posts toDay, which is a big red flag to me. Who do you think the wolves are?

[Thinlómien]

Anyone else having problems with the 'downs? I keep getting some "error 508: resource limit reached" when I open a new page (but not every time, it seems) This is not speeding up my analyses...

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Anyone else having problems with the 'downs? I keep getting some "error 508: resource limit reached" when I open a new page (but not every time, it seems) This is not speeding up my analyses...

Yep! I got that too, a number of times. That, or the page just never loads. But now it seems to be better. ???

I hope the gods of the internet aren't gonna ruin this crucial Day!

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I don't understand Hui's posting. Unless it is to say that the dead think Soriman is innocent and Pitch is guilty? That's what I'm getting. But given that Kath joined the dead when Hui departed, these cannot be seer dreams. Update: Hui seems to have confirmed they know about Soriman and are guessing about Pitch. I would like to know how they're sure they know, but I guess I'll just have to take a leap of faith.

I'm not following the difficulty you (and sally, Pitch yesterday) appear to be having with the messages from the ghosts? They've been brilliantly clear in making sure the accurate information is given.

Yesterday Form had 2 messages from "Iluvatar" (G55 and BG) that were given to the Dead thread. G55 explained that since there was no wolf yet, this was a tidbit of information randomly selected by them:

Originally Posted by G55

In light of recent posts, yet another rules reminder. The Dead HAVE gotten Infodrops on both N2 and N3. This info was not concrete information as could befit a seer. It is not truly cryptic in the sense that you have to figure out a riddle, more just vague. Information that may limit your range of possibilities in certain scenarios but does not point to any one specific scenario being true.

Does that make sense? In 5 words: the Dead have vague facts.

One of those "vague facts" was there was at least one wolf among the list of people who received a vote on Day 1. This has been confirmed as true, with sally being lynched a wolf yesterday. It could be Morsul and Pitch are also wolves, because the "vague fact" was only "at least one of them is a wolf." So, this message is for as far as I know, fulfilled. It cannot be used to point guilt towards Morsul or Pitch, and it cannot clear Morsul of Pitch.

Now as G55 also stated, if a wolf joins the dead thread, that wolf would get a pick of the "vague fact" that the dead learn. This does not mean sally was allowed to choose false information, just that she had her pick of what the "vague fact" was..I know G55 loves being a cobbler, but she's not a liar, I can't imagine she would give sally false information to give to the dead and then have them provide it to the living; only that sally had her choice from a number of "vague facts" the dead could learn.

That fact apparently was something revealing Soriman's innocent. That much is clear in Huey's messages. Post #407. I mean, "Iluvatar" "Saruman" "innocent" "friendship"...I don't see how this is any way not clear.

His other message is conveying the beliefs of the dead. The first quote mentions "Gorlim" (the Ghost). The dead believe Pitch is a wolf, this is again a clear difference between what they learned about Soriman, and what they believe about Pitch.

I would suspect a cobbler would have a lot of fun with trying to confuse us about the messages, but seeing as there is no cobbler. My conclusion is it has to be wolves, because only they would benefit from trying to be confused by the Ghost's messages. So far that is something that just factually doesn't make sense, neither Form nor Huey have been ambiguous in their quoting.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by FotR: The Council of Elrond

Aragorn smiled at him; then he turned to Boromir again.

Ghost

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Silm: Ainulindale

But when they were come into the Void, Ilúvatar said to them: 'Behold your Music!'

Originally Posted by RotK: Many Partings

But now come tell me: what of the task that I set you? How is Saruman?

Originally Posted by UT: The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Thus the Dwarves of Moria may be presumed to have been innocent of the ruin of Doriath and not hostile to the Elves.

Ghost

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Silm: Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin

But they knew not who he was, nor anything of what had befallen in the south; and he passed them by, and they said no word.

Originally Posted by Silm: Of Beren and Luthien

The wind wails,
The wolf howls.

Originally Posted by Hobbit: Flies and Spiders

It then became pitch-dark—not what you call pitch-dark, but really pitch: so black that you really could see nothing.

Ghost

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Silm: Of the Silmarils and the Unrest of the Noldor

Now the Valar were sitting in council before their gates, fearing the lengthening of the shadows, when the messengers came from Formenos.

Originally Posted by FotR: The Council of Elrond

'We know not for certain,' answered Elrond sadly.

Ghost

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

To hopefully help get the trust of the fellow loyalists to my lords Barahir and Beren, as I said yesterday my steering days are over. And as I said today, it's not breaking news that I lay out plans, and bait, and traps. But today, those days are over for me too...with the loss of Lottie and Kath there's no point in trying to lay out cryptic messages that I intended to confuse the wolves with...which also does have a habit of catching some ordinary innocent along the way. Yes, I'm still saddened by my role in Huey's lynch. But for that, you see I take the blame for my part in it, but have others? Pitch? Lommy? Legate? You have blood on your hands as much as I do.

I don't think it needs stating that none of us five covered ourselves in glory that day. With all we know by now it's certain that at least one wolf was driving the Huiwagon hoping to save sally, but even if two of them were in it they had help from innocents who forgot that the proper way to solve a Gordian knot is not by the sword. Whether you were a driver or a helper I can't say. There has been talk about your comment to Legate during the voting ("See, I told you one vote could make a bandwagon"), and I could totally see that as a "Hey, that worked!" from wolf to wolf.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I went into Day 1 and the following night thinking Pitch was the seer, dreamed I was innocent, because I didn't think of any reason why 1 person would say something fairly definitive about me that early.

Gut feeling based on the general tone of your posts and the overall way of thinking in them, which I felt was fairly straightforward. Should have worded that more carefully.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

But I saw no such hints that Pitch knew Lottie's role, so I scrapped that plan and went full out towards what looked like the most suspicious thing from Days 1 and 2. Legate's vote analysis. Unfortunately it just ended up pitting Huey and myself against each other and I did not see the error of my ways until after Huey's lynch.

Or you lost interest in lynching Lottie when I backed off her (I need to check the chronology), went wolf-on-wolf against Legate and when Hui engaged you about it you took the opportunity to go after him instead.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Day 3 - Lottie was the ranger and now dead. Form delivers a message that at least one from Morsul, sally or Pitch is a wolf. So I'm questioning now..wait Boro, is Pitch the seer?

So that pretty much settled it for me that he wasn't the seer. And now Pitch, this is why I suspect you for your part in sally's fake reveal yesterday.

Let me go through this one last time:
sally #316: "Vote for almost literally anyone else."
sally #318: "Wouldn't vote Boro, Morsul, Pitch." 3 names: N1, N2, N3.
You wouldn't think she was hinting, fine. A you say, you know her a lot better than I do. But do you at least see why I thought she was? It didn't help that I didn't suspect you much and was wavering about Morsul, and I obviously know my own role.

And incidentally, since you and sally were very trusting of each other on D2, and I know you know each other well, I'm afraid I let that colour my perception of both of you. Hermeneutic vicious circle.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I am no wolf, and not a betrayer. Something I am reminding myself, still being troubled by Huey's lynch, even though I plan to bait wolves, that can lead to catching unintended innocents. It is my flaw...just because in my head I thought Pitch was the seer, doesn't mean he intended to give me any such reason to believe it. Honestly, it's not quite adding up, because his response in 282 looks honest of "that wasn't for you at all. I was telling myself not to be too trusting of you and sally." Also, if Pitch was intending to look like the seer why would he press sally into trying to reveal it?

What say you Pitch? Now that you can see my thought process and judge for yourself the truth of it.

I'll judge the truth of it at the curtain call, when the true meaning of Ilúvatar's themes is revealed for all to see. For now, it sounds believable enough, so if you made it up, good job.
I don't know. I can't put it better than 'I want to trust you more than I dare to.'

[Thinlómien]

I have spent a lot of time in this game writing post summaries and I don't have the time now since I want to look at all of Kath, Sally, Boro, and Legate, so you'll just have to bear with my impressions:

Kath

On Day1, possibly to avoid wolvish attention, Kath didn't single anyone out as particularly wolvish or innocent. She voted for Morsul. Day2 she heavily suspected Sally based on Form's death and voted for her, and she also suspected all of the Hui-Legate-Boro trio to a degree, but unlikely dreamed of any of them (especially unlikely in the case of Huin ). Defended Lottie. Conclusions? Sally and Lottie were likely seer dreams.

Day3 then? Speculates a Sally/Lommy/Pitch pack, also suspects Legate. Makes it clear that "sally I think is a wolf regardless of the other two" but otherwise making no clear ranking of suspiciousness between others. Ergo likely didn't dream of anyone else (and well, I can tell you with 100% certainty that she didn't dream of me, or she wouldn't have wasted her time suspecting me). Later voices more suspicion of Pitch based on his communication with Sally. Also looks at Morsul but doesn't conclude anything concrete about his guilt/innocence, so safe to say she didn't dream of him either. Says she's tempted to think Soriman is a wolf and says almost nothing at all about Boro; if we trust the dead, she cannot have dreamed of guilty!Sori and I think she'd have mentioned if she had serious reasons to believe Boro was guilty or innocent. So I'm a little swamped about dream #3, my guess is that she actually only dreamed of Sally AFTER suspecting her on Day2 to confirm/prove it, and one of her earlier dreams was someone who died (basically Greenie or Form). I guess it's also possible she dreamed of a Wolfwife on N3, but I'd think she'd have come out in that case. Also that doesn't really add up with the "sally is a wolf regardless" comment.

Sally

Day1 was her infamous quiet Day, and she did not vote. On Day2 she says she would vote for Lottie (for aggression) or Lommy (gut instinct), has no idea about Hui, Sori and Legate, and would not vote Boro, Pitch, Morsul, or Kath. Defended Pitch quite vocally by her standards (give that she was quite quiet in this game), and voted for Lottie. I do think wolf!Sally could defend Pitch regardless of his role - to buddy up with an innocent, but she could just as well defend a fellow openly and trust to get away with it.

Day3 has again more material, and it's here stuff gets more interesting. She refused to buy into the "one of Sally / Morsul / Pitch is guilty" theory as long as she could. Instead she kept saying Morsul is likely misguided innocent and didn't say anything about Pitch. Said she "would vote" Kath, Legate, Lommy or Sori, and "wouldn't vote" Boro, Morsul or Pitch. She tried to make a case against me, and agreed with Boro's point against Legate. Didn't really specify why she put anyone else in any particular category, if I'm correct. Then later in the day she seems to have flipped - perhaps after it started to look like a majority of the village was willing to vote for her, or maybe after enough people explained the dead thread message to her - and she amended that maybe Morsul or Pitch could be a wolf after all. Later she tried to fake she was the seer and she'd dreamed of innocent Boro and Morsul, and try to get the village vote for Kath with her. Says Pitch is more likely a wolf than Morsul. Says "Et tu, Boro?" when Boro votes for her.

Comments: A lot to unpack here, especially with the votes against her combined. Let me just comment individually how likely packmates I consider everyone for Sally, in the order which they voted for her:

#1 Morsul: was the first one to vote for Sally, right at the beginning of the Day, and kept pressing at her lynch throughout the Day. Sally kept defending him 'til the end. Now this would have been an insanely bold move from wolf Morsul. Remember, we know now Sally was lynched, but there was no way the wolves would have known she was doomed from the beginning of the Day. A sacrifice like Morsul's would have been an unnecessary prolonging of the game from their pov. I mean I guess it's possible the wolves thought Sally was toast and decided to bus her from the beginning of the Day, but I'd think they'd have preferred to have tried to win the game yesterDay. Sally's insistence in Morsul's innocence could have been to make herself look better (I don't think knee jerk suspicion of Morsul would have helped her case), or I guess more sinister if she didn't want to make Morsul another lynch option when the pack had already decided to bus her, not him.

#2 Kath

#3 Boro - now his and mine (#4) were the decisive ones. (Had voting for Sally stopped at 3 votes and someone else got 3 too, the outcome would have been up to the dead thread. So number #3 made sally an almost certain lynch candidate and #4 sealed it.) Normally, I would say that this would be a credit to Boro, but given that nobody except Pitchwife and myself to a lesser degree seemed to be considering sally's reveal could be genuine, bussing her at this point would have been a clever move for Wolfomir88. (Also, Boro didn't even consider Sally's reveal could have been genuine. Somewhat typical Boro-singlemindedness, or was he so sure she wasn't genuine because he knew?) Sally's continued trust in Boro makes me raise my eyebrows, but then again, "Et tu, Boro?" would be pretty bold against a fellow wolf. But then again, Sally is bold. Idk. To be honest, my feelings towards Boro in this game can be summed up in two words: intense paranoia, ok and also the following three: second-guessing everything.

#4 me

#5 Soriman, whom I'm not going to analyse

#6 Legate - a late vote that does him little credit. He'd have voted for Sally at this point regardless of his role. She threw him in her suspicious category earlier during Day3 but didn't contribute very much to making an actual case against him - this is another piece of non-information, if you ask me. I think the wolves would likely not have turned against each other in the first half of the day since they could still have won by lynching an innocent - but then again, putting him in a "suspicious" category but only proceeding to make one (1) unoriginal point against him would hardly make Legate more likely to get lynched.

#7 Pitchwife - as has been pointed out almost ad nauseam toDay, he looks the worst in conjuction with Sally. She considered him innocent earlier, on Day3 considered him innocent without drawing extra attention to him (she didn't claim to have "seer dreamed" of him unlike about Morsul and Boro, but she kept him safely in her innocent category without really saying anything to draw attention to him either before or after her reveal, except for a somewhat belated "ok if one of me, Morsul and Pitch is a wolf, it has to be Pitch", which is understandable, because she had just claimed she dreamed of innocent Morsul.) I still think the Pitch-Sally interaction is a little fishy, but as I said before, I can also sympathise with Pitch. I mean if you're an ordo, can you really rightaway disregard a seer reveal, however unlikely the source? Perhaps Pitch looks foul but feels fair. However, this game has proven that both my reason and my gut-feeling can be equally wrong, so I'm hesitating to draw any conclusions.

Ok leaving Legate and Boro for the next post, and focusing on that weird dance with Huin on D2 because I don't have the time to go through all their verbiose posts, and D1 I think is likely not that telling and D3 is in my fresh memory... then I'm also gonna look at wolf-packs. My current options are Morsul-Boro (who'd have decided to bus Sally), Legate-Pitch (would look maybe the most likely in regards to Sally I guess), or Legate-Boro (downright insane but absolutely actually quite plausible and also sounds like we would be done for). Individually I think Morsul looks the most innocent, but I'm on the fence about the other three.

But now, Legate just came home and we're gonna make dinner, so a little break from ww first. Wish us luck that we won't stab each other with kitchen knives, it's absolutely insane to be in the same apartment on a Day like this. (Don't play ww with your significant others, children, it might be detrimental to your relationship and/or mental health!)

Also I'm gonna cross-post with everyone because I've been writing this for almost two hours (jeez).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, I did a very scattered re-read at work but didn't have the time to post any conclusions. I would have actually liked to recheck a few things once I get home, in a better environment, but this for now. These are just very quick summaries of my current impressions.

Assuming Soriman is innocent (btw hoping he shows up).

Morsul has a fairly good voting record, probably the best by far. His posting often raises questions of its own, but he has the tendency to act unpredictably. There is still the possibility that he might be a Wolf based on the Ghost info from yesterDay, in that case a super lucky and brazen one. I would rather lean innocent because it would be just too many lucky coincidences for him. Sidenote, regarding yesterDay, a lot still depends on what did the Wolves do there and how coordinated it was, whether they went in with the idea to bus sally or not.

Lommy, as for voting record, was twice in the thick of the Huiwagon. Otherwise like I said she does not seem to post in any way wolfishly, but could be a submarine Wolf. YesterDay I would say her actions around the vote for sally speak to her favour, her willingness to consider sally's claim but also that she voted her (fairly early) - a Wolf would likely not have done that.

Pitch has the most suspicious voting record, basically voting every Day when it did not matter any more. His posts raise eyebrows every now and then, but he has so far managed to avoid getting under any drastic scrutiny. The matter with him and possible participation in the Seer reveal with sally yesterDay is also one thing that makes him look bad.

Boro has certainly been a "steersman" through and through, and one could basically interpret each of his actions as good or bad, including all the cryptic remarks and conspiracy theories. His voting has been rather on the safer side (first Day he voted for somebody who did not have the chance to get lynched, Day 2 he voted early too). Day 3 depends of course on what exactly has trespassed there. If he's a Wolf, then he threw sally under the bus, but not that it is impossible, of all people I can imagine him doing that. If that was the idea, now he is in much better standing because of that and may be just playing it that way, hoping to weather whatever storms are going to come.

Right now, I would be more inclined to think that at least one of Boro or Pitch is a Wolf, and I feel overall more confident about them than the other two; the others would be much more blind shot for me. It may however be quite imaginable that either of Pitch and Boro is and then his packmate is one of the two others. I tried at some point during my re-read to form some sort of combinatorics about who could be Wolves with whom, but I realised that was beyond my processing power, at least at work. Anyway I think it comes down to whether we lynch correctly toDay, then hopefully that will help things become clearer toMorrow, plus ideally with more Dead and possibly Seer info.

Need to make myself some dinner, but then I'll be back. Presumably shouldn't be too long.

EDIT: x-ed with several novels and with all Ghost's posts. Will be back to read them.

[Soriman the Whide]

Yeah i'm here Legate, just not able to post much...
I think the dead have proved my innocence, reading through now.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Few quick thoughts on the Ghost's most recent words - I cannot really figure out much from that. It seems to me that perhaps (?) it refers to the way they came up with that Soriman is innocent, so it is some sort of elaboration on that. And maybe (the later post) also what/how they figured out their thoughts about Pitchwife. But I cannot really make much sense out of it. I sort of assume that it is not anything new that would shake the gist of what has been said before, but some elaboration that could be useful if we deciphered it, but this is as much as I can figure out from that.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Boro

I'm not following the difficulty you (and sally, Pitch yesterday) appear to be having with the messages from the ghosts? They've been brilliantly clear in making sure the accurate information is given.

I could be offended, but I'm deciding not to. Yes, I agree toDay's messages have been clear. YesterDay's, nope. And I am saying the dead are not infallible. I very much doubt G55 straightaway gave them Sori's alignment. Therefore, they must have concluded it from some more vague information they got. Does this mean that it is foolproof? NO. Does it mean that we should trust it for toDay? Certainly. Does it mean that we should trust it for the rest of the game, if it goes on? I think so. I mean frankly, we don't have the time to suspect someone who is 95% likely innocent. If Soriman is a wolf somehow and we lose because of that, I'm gonna blame the dead thread. So we can discount him for now. As I belive I said before, so I don't know why you dedicated a whole post to "arguing against me". Makes me think you want to keep the village talking about information we already have, ie Soriman's innocence, instead of looking for the wolves.

And Huin seems to be repeating this too, and also repeating the dead suspect Pitchwife but they are not certain. I only wonder what Soriman being "not hostile to elves" means, if it means anything. Does it mean that he's not hostile to Galadriel55 ie didn't eat her ie is innocent? Or does it mean he is not hostile to me or Morsul (since we're the ones with Sindarin usernames) and the dead think we're all innocent? Or even know something?

Pitch, I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, yesterDay you seem to both question Sally and believe her in #368 before proceeding to legate-180 on her - can you explain your flipflop?

Legate, so you don't think Boro and Pitch are packmates, but rather that one is a wolf with Morsul or me? Hmm I wonder why is that, because currently I think most likely packs are either Legate-Boro or Legate-Pitch... (Or Boro-Morsul, but if they are, I wouldn't honestly mind them winning because they'd have been doing an insanely good job.)

Now off to look at Day2, hoping it will either prove or disprove the Legate-Boro theory...


edit: xed with Legate

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm seeing a Morsul-Boro alliance out in the open, and I'm pretty sure that's how the two of them would play it if they were the remaining wolves: appear decisively in the start of the Day when the Europeans are sleeping, direct the discussion where they want (ie towards the most guilty looking other player, ie Pitch), and not suspect each other. I'm mildly alarmed.

That was the impression I got this morning. From Morsul this is not so surprising (allthough I remember the game you mentioned earlier, and so should he), but Boro was remarkably single-minded about wanting to lynch me ("I do not have to be a seer to know that Pitch is a wolf", "The surest way I know to still fight on to tomorrow is to lynch Pitch" - I mean, this is strong language).

He has since mellowed a fair bit, maybe because you and Legate weren't falling out of your chairs voting me. After his Shakespearean monologue I'm really at a loss what to think.



If one of Boro and Morsul is a misguided innocent and the other a wolf leading him along, my money would be on Ordul/Wolfomir (sorry Morsul, not meaning to slight you!) - although it bears remembering that 'misguided innocent' is just what sally called Morsul.


But actually, if neither of them is a wolf the remaining two must be Legate and Lommy, in which case why haven't they voted yet?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Legate, so you don't think Boro and Pitch are packmates, but rather that one is a wolf with Morsul or me? Hmm I wonder why is that, because currently I think most likely packs are either Legate-Boro or Legate-Pitch... (Or Boro-Morsul, but if they are, I wouldn't honestly mind them winning because they'd have been doing an insanely good job.)

I find it more unlikely that Morsul and Pitch are Wolves together, for that matter. Morsul would have to be super confident to bus first sally and then Pitch and then hope to win on his own. And actually no, both Boro and Pitch may theoretically be together and running a very well-orchestrated show. But I just find it more probable that they are not simply given their recent interaction.

EDIT: x-ed with pitch

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

That was the impression I got this morning. From Morsul this is not so surprising (allthough I remember the game you mentioned earlier, and so should he),

Just for clarification I do not remember that. I have vague memories of playing before. For what it’s worth I can’t retract but reading everything today something isn’t sitting right. I was less sure today than yesterday and should’ve held my vote. While I was 70-80% sure pitch was wolf that more like a coin flip now. Mostly because I can see how an innocent would follow Sally’s little breadcrumbs.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Lommy

Pitch, I'm not sure if I'm reading correctly, yesterDay you seem to both question Sally and believe her in #368 before proceeding to legate-180 on her - can you explain your flipflop?

Questioned her because she deduced that I might be a wolf based on the message from the Dead, when earlier she didn't seem to believe that they were right (or that Boro had read them correctly).
Believed her because she hadn't claimed to have dreamed me, so she could still have been the Seer.
What made me sure she was a fraud was when she wavered about Morsul, whom she had claimed to have dreamed.

[Morsul the Dark]

Is it me or is there a lot of theory packs about Me, Pitch, and Boro and a couple that toss Legate or Lommy with someone else. But no one is talking about the possibility of Lommy/Legate everyone’s making decent point but that possibility seems to be missing. I dunno that’s weird to me. Maybe I missed it.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I can imagine a pack of Boro/Morsul, Boro/Lommy, Pitch/Lommy or Pitch/Boro. Pitch/Boro is a little too aggressive a combination but theoretically possible - anyway, like I said, I think getting one Wolf should hopefully clarify things also on other fronts.

[Pitchwife]

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Just for clarification I do not remember that. I have vague memories of playing before. For what it’s worth I can’t retract but reading everything today something isn’t sitting right. I was less sure today than yesterday and should’ve held my vote. While I was 70-80% sure pitch was wolf that more like a coin flip now. Mostly because I can see how an innocent would follow Sally’s little breadcrumbs.

Don't you even remember the game when both of us revealed as Seer and your packmates couldn't kill me without blowing your cover? Oh, and there were two Rangers too! (That's not the one I meant though, just fond memories.)

Originally Posted by Morsul the Dark

Is it me or is there a lot of theory packs about Me, Pitch, and Boro and a couple that toss Legate or Lommy with someone else. But no one is talking about the possibility of Lommy/Legate everyone’s making decent point but that possibility seems to be missing. I dunno that’s weird to me. Maybe I missed it.

No, it's not just you. Wouldn't that be convenient, for once not to have to hide their werewolfing from each other?


Mind you, that would mean both of them pushed the Huiwagon to save sally. That would be a pretty brazen concerted action from a pair of wolves. I need to go back and look at what happened there.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

Don't you even remember the game when both of us revealed as Seer and your packmates couldn't kill me without blowing your cover? Oh, and there were two Rangers too! (That's not the one I meant though, just fond memories.)

In the spirit of this game

No, Sam. I can't recall the taste of food, nor the sound of water, nor the touch of grass.

Morsul

[Morsul the Dark]

Double post. Yes both voted Hui and I noted Lommy telling me to not bandwagon myself then voted the same person as me(Hui Day1)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Okay, hate to say this folks, but it is getting late. I would sort of prefer to vote, well, early, even though I also see why toDay is not the best Day. But if my brain is in the process of switching itself off (which I am afraid it may be), I am going to steadily lose the ability to trust myself to make rational decisions.

I would like to hear what Soriman has to say for sure, but then... I certainly do not like the idea of the responsibility of casting a vote early, but I guess somebody would have to do that. I better think.

[Pitchwife]

Compiled for easier reference:

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

But otherwise my top options would include Pitch and Boro with his strange analysis, and I think lynching Hui would also clarify several things, even though I started feeling better about him during the course of toDay. Of those who have votes I am not comfortable to cast my vote for Lottie and with lynching sally there are just so many "what ifs" - the whole Form question of frames or double-frames or whatever.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Legate's response does give me a slight bit of caution and glad I decided to step back. I do find his analysis still suspicious, but these are good points to my belaboring the point throughout the day:

[...]

Huey is shooting up red flags and it's not because he's voted or suspects me at all. It's this, which I definitely classify as "sinister."

So you're most suspicious of me and cast suspicion my way, and state that Pitch and Lommy are also less suspicious, but out of the 4 of us you called sally a wolf. If you truly think sally is a wolf...why not vote for sally? So are you saying Pitch and Lommy are suspicious if sally turns out to be a wolf?

Then in your post that you voted for me, again you throw up "wolfSally"

If you think lynching wolfSally would shed more light on things...why in the blazes did you vote for me? I get if I look suspicious, fare enough, but this is VERY RED FLAG. "Lynching wolfSally might shed some more light on things, but I'm just going to vote for someone else anyway."

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Blaarg, this is why I couldn't sleep, I knew someone would pick a turn of phrase and try to make make me a Definite Wolf over it... since it was apparently not obvious, by "wolf!Sally" I meant that IF Sally is a wolf, lynching them would be best because it would provide information on Pitch and Lommy (as stated, it would look bad for them IF Sally is a wolf). But I have NOT read anything which makes Sally feel like a wolf to me, and so I think it's a coin toss: WolfSally or InnocentSally.

Since I'm pretty sure you are a wolf, I'd rather lynch you than gamble on Sally.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

"Better", but not exonerating. I am still considering him suspicious enough to merit a vote otherwise.

Note: replying to me querying why we was considering voting Hui if he was 'looking better'

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

So toDay Huin/Legate/Boro is a thing? I can't quite put my finger on it, but the blaming others for tunnel vision while tunnel visioning themselves circle is certainly eye catching. Something about it seems fishy to me. Sorry, that's not very analytical I know but something's off there. I'm also tempted to give them all a pass for toDay - which I probably shouldn't - because all their long posts, especially Boro and Legate's, are giving me headache. They're getting pretty advanced, and I don't have the patience right now (it's 0.30 and the last workday of the week and I'm feeling it) to untangle it. But I'm saying once again there's something furry going on here.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Is it a turn of a phrase or a slip to protect yourself if I am lynched and revealed to everyone that I am innocent?

Because you have listed the people you are suspicious of (Myself, Lommy, Pitch, and sally) and only referred to sally as a wolf. Now if you are innocent and truly voting for me, being the most suspicious looking person to you, fair enough. But you didn't call me a wolf in your post when you voted for me. You said in your vote post for me that I was "most likely a wolf," while directly referring to sally as a wolf.

But I've said my bit on this, made my point now and won't continue hammering on about it.

++Huey

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

As I said, I would prefer the whole Legate/Hui/Boro kettle of fish for toMorrow because I'm not sure what to think about it. I feel considerably less certain of Legate and Boro's innocence than yesterDay - both of them have been a little shady toDay - but I don't think I have any actual arguments against them. Huin I still find suspicious, but Form's death makes him look a little better. If I had to pick one of them to lynch toDay I would probably prefer Huin over Legate, and Legate over Boro. But I would still like to unpack this with a fresher brain.

Like I said, Lottie and Morsul look better to me now. Not a huge fan of the idea of lynching either of them toDay.
[...]
Sally? I'm okay with that, but I'm not sure it's the smartest move. I feel like this whole Sally thing has been blown a little out of proportion while she's not here to defend herself, which is a little suspicious in itself.
[...]

But if I had to pick from the current vote candidates, I'd probably go for Sally. I have less misgivings about it than about lynching Boro or Lottie.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THIS HUIN / BORO / LEGATE BOVINE EXCREMENT????

Now you're making me consider it toDay. I have a headache.

I really don't know which one of you is the wolf / wolves, but if you're all three innocent I'm gonna eat my mousepad.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Btw currently contemplating the idea of a Boro / Huin / Legate pack and laughing my head off. I can't say if they'd be brilliant or really terrible at their job. But I'm pretty sure it would play out almost exactly like this. They'd probably have planned their wolf-on-wolf drama beforehand at Night.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I got distracted for a bit but now I am back...

I am not sure what to think about Boro suddenly being so friendly, plus now I see Boro voted Hui and Hui voted Boro, as if to challenge me to vote for the other. Well, I am probably more inclined to vote Boro, also because of the conciliatory tone of his #176.

Need to make sense of things, slightly catching up stuff here. Will try to make sense of stuff soon, hopefully not crossposted with too many again.

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

This just made me laugh out loud so hard, and I'm still laughing. Bad thing is, I can totally see it, and honestly, right now I'd probably feel more confident voting any of them than I'd feel about voting anybody else (possibly excepting Kath). Order of preference being Legate > Hui > Boro.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, if you believe it when I say it, it wasn't conciliation. As I said I still find those your points suspicious, but your responses back gave me a bit of pause. Huey jumped ahead of you the way he hyper zoned in on me after I was focusing in on you.

I don't like the misrepresentation that I ignored his accusation, especially since it ignored my point that I wasn't interested in distractions: See this post

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I'm getting to the point that I would be tempted to lynch one of Hui / Boro / Legate just to shed light on the others' roles. I think it would be more informative than finding out Sally's role, just saying. Sally's been so quiet she's scarcely mentioned anyone. (Others have mentioned her, of course. But there's nothing to compare to if we could untie the whole Hui / Boro / Legate knot.)

(Side note: I'm also thinking I'm not thinking this through, and not sure if I should act in the heat of the moment. I'm not really sure about any of Hui / Boro / Legate. I mean they're all fishy but I feel like one should have something more concrete on Day2.)

It's kind of comforting to me that Sally was the first one to get the 2 votes, because if toDay's voting ends in a chaos and multiple ties, then we at lynch someone I don't consider particularly innocent, if I don't have enough grounds to suspect her either. (I would feel more worried about the situation if Lottie had got the 2 votes first.)

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Well, what the hell. Someone's gotta do something.

++Huinesoron

Out of the trio of doom, it's him and Boro who have votes, and I suspect him more than Boro (yes despite suspecting him a little less after the Form kill). So if we start unraveling that knot, I suggest starting here.

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

Okay, I think I am simply lacking the attention span to do anything more than vote. I will just go with Hui. Let's hope that if he dies, it will help untangle several questions.

++Huinesoron

EDIT: x-ed with Lommy

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I feel we have to sever this Gordian knot somehow. I'd prefer lynching Legate, but if that's not going to happen

.SDJGHÖdslkghadlk-gjfälkadgjölakfjghkjadhg

Allright
++Hui

[Thinlómien]

The whole thing seems to have started with Boro and especially Legate's (#124) vote analyses. Legate suggests a Hui-Lottie duo, or a Pitch-Hui duo, and calls Boro's vote for Lottie "throwaway".

Huinesoron agreed with Legate about the Form kill.

Boro suspected Legate for focusing on Hui and me on his vote analysis while conveniently ignoring himself and Morsul.

Hui didn't think a wolf-Lottie would have thought innocent-Boro a seer.

Boro did a conspiracy theory post about Legate and Huin being packmates, saying "Huey's driving and getting the suspicions stirring against innocent people. Legate is narrowing in on Huey + 1 other, to softly suspect Huey and fall back on as a wolf-on-wolf vote, but trying to put the attention on the other person (Greenie Day 1 and now Lommy today)."

Right after, Hui attacked Boro, for misrepresenting both the information available to the dead thread, and misrepresenting Legate's vote analysis.

In his list post, Legate was suspicious of Huin, even though not particularly strongly. (Btw Legate, I remember you replied to me saying "you were supposed to be pro-Huinesoron!" after you voted for him that you were never pro-Huinesoron, and I can see that now. My apologies! Not sure it's a point in your favour given Huin was innocent, but at least it makes your voting more consistent than I thought it was.) He also says "I am becoming increasingly unclear, if not suspicious about what Boro is up to, because while yesterDay I overall leaned towards trusting what he was doing, toDay I am increasingly dubious about what his role in everything is. It may be influenced partly by his throwaway vote yesterDay and lastly the conspiracy theory post - I cannot tell whether that is supposed to be a mental exercise or whether he is subtly trying to cast suspicion around." and joins Huin in refuting Boro's interpretation of his (=Legate's) vote analysis. Apparently cross-posted with Huin and lauded him for thinking along similar lines.

Boro replied to Huin's defense of Legate with suspicion of Huin. However concludes with "I think Legate looks the worst out of the two (him and Huey). So, it's not out of the realm of possibility that Legate would simply attach himself to an innocent Huey to keep a smaller list of suspects." Boro also later continued by elaborating on his suspicions of Legate's vote analysis.

Boro was worried about his own tunnel vision on Legate, and noting it had elicited replies only from Legate and Huin.

In his list, Huinesoron suspected Boro and was undecided about Legate.

Legate continued arguing with Boro whether his vote analysis makes sense or not.

Huin voted for Boro.

Legate mentioned both Boro and Pitch as his vote options.

Boro defended his suspicions of Legate to Huin.

Boro then said "Legate's response does give me a slight bit of caution and glad I decided to step back. I do find his analysis still suspicious, but these are good points to my belaboring the point throughout the day [quotes Legate]". In the same post, he focuses the attack on Huin.

Huin kept arguing with Boro after his bedtime.

Legate clarified his suspicion of Huin to Pitch that he felt better about Huin but he was overall still suspicious.

Boro questioned Huin's suspicion phrasings (sorry for a bad summary, the post is #182) and voted for Huin, casting the first vote.

Legate was unsure what to think of Boro backing of him, and felt like Boro and Hui's mutual votes were a call to action for him to pick a side. He said he was more likely to vote for Boro out of the two.

Boro replied to my yelling about their triangle drama "I don't think I've erred today. If I have then may death reveal my true heart."

Legate backtracked a little on saying he preferred to vote Boro over Hui, however I'm not sure why.

Boro defended his vote for Hui while stating to Legate he was still suspicious of him too.

Legate voted for Huinesoron, saying "Okay, I think I am simply lacking the attention span to do anything more than vote. I will just go with Hui. Let's hope that if he dies, it will help untangle several questions." His vote was the fourth, sealing Huin's fate, but he likely thought it was only the third, because he xed with yours truly.

Legate still defended himself against me exclaiming he was supposed to be pro-Huinesoron, saying he'd suspected him from Day1.

After Huinesoron had got 6 votes, Boro posted the infamous one-liner "See what I mean Legate, how the 1st vote can start a bandwagon?" to which Legate replied "What's this, some sort of flaunting, when it even was not a point I disagreed on?"

Legate also commented "Last moments are making me brutally doubt Boro and what all this was about." which is interesting, because didn't he doubt Boro the whole Day?

Boro's last post for the Day was: "No I mean how I'm very nervous that everyone after me voted for Huey, after everyone kept saying it wasn't a "likely possibility." So, in my opinion either Huey is a wolf and his 2 mates bussed him. Or I'm suddenly fearing that he is as he says, just an ordo, and all these Huey votes at the end (Lommy, Legate, Pitch, Lottie) that 3 of you are wolves." Which just rubs me the wrong way for multiple reasons, because obviously he was disregarding the possibility that even if Huin was innocent, wolves could have voted for someone else too (and lo! you know who did? Our known wolf Sally.) Furthermore he absolutely fails at taking any responsibility for his own vote and - yes I will say it - scheming.

Okay. This didn't clarify very much. I think it could be two innocents butting heads (statistically rather unlikely at this point), a wolf targeting an innocent (but who is the monster and who is the maaaaaan? /end Disney reference), or hell, even wolf-on-wolf.

Boro and Legate: would you care, once again, to clearly state why on earth didn't you follow through with your main suspicions (each other) but instead went for your secondary suspicion (Huin)?

I mean, if I had conspiracy corner with Lommy, I would say wolf-Boro and wolf-Legate decided to go all loud wolf-on-wolf on Day2, knowing their mate Sally would be under fire for the Form kill, hoping to give the village something else to talk to. Hence Boro's disappointed-sounding note that no one but Hui was paying attention. As it came time for voting, they both conveniently decided to got for innocent Hui who had gotten entangled in their argument as the third wheel.

UGH. I wish that had clarified something. I feel like I've been stuck in square one the whole Day. It's getting late again, and I'm still unsure who the heckle are the wolves.

Just saying I'm gonna x with everyone.

[Pitchwife]

Looking at the above*, I find it noteworthy how Lommy keeps iterating that "something's wrong with Hui/Legate/Boro" in ever so many posts, hammering down the notion that one of them probably is a wolf while wavering and flipflopping about the details all the time, and also juggling some passing suspicion of sally in the other hand but ever reluctant to vote her.



On one hand she looks a lot like a befuddled Ordlómien, and at the time I could certainly sympathise with her predicament (one of my big mistakes this game, which I'm about to repeat, is hanging around to DL just because I can, whereas my thinking doesn't necessarily get clearer approaching it).

But on the other hand this would also befit a packmate of sally's who was frantically looking for a way to save her but also made sure to suspect her enough to exculpate herself if sally was lynched.


*=my summary. not Lommy's post with which I x-ed

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Pitchwife

I don't think it needs stating that none of us five covered ourselves in glory that day. With all we know by now it's certain that at least one wolf was driving the Huiwagon hoping to save sally, but even if two of them were in it they had help from innocents who forgot that the proper way to solve a Gordian knot is not by the sword. Whether you were a driver or a helper I can't say. There has been talk about your comment to Legate during the voting ("See, I told you one vote could make a bandwagon"), and I could totally see that as a "Hey, that worked!" from wolf to wolf.

I could have not said it and saved myself the suspicion it caused. But we always don't think things through before hitting "send." I was in "look at me, pay attention to me mode" for most of Day 2. As Kath observed the following day:

Originally Posted by Kath

With Boro's behaviour yesterDay, I read it as his oft-used strategy of: "Look at me, look at me! No don't look at them, I'M the Gifted one! No really - pay attention to meeee!" Ok yes maybe I'm oversimplifying but I read post #191 and just had to smile, and it also made me feel that he's innocent. The wolves would want to draw out Gifteds, not distract from them, so I'm feeling ok about Boro at the moment.

My response to Kath:

Originally Posted by Me #292

Hahaha and now I have coffee all over myself, because I cannot deny this. Do forgive me though, I never intend to be that way, but it always happens. I start getting in my own head that everything someone says is about me.

As I've said though, I'm done steering toDay and will vote for either Morsul, sally or Pitch.

Now personally I took this to mean she dreamed of me, saw I was innocent and was basically saying "calm the buggers down." This is something I don't know for sure, because I agree with Legate's assessment that it isn't definitive enough I look "ok at the moment."

Now everyone knows I'm a bold and insane wolf, consider this...knowing that I saw this and responded to Kath as I did yesterday. Do you think if I was a wolf I wouldn't be all over this in trying to make it look like Kath dreamed me an innocent and therefor be focusing on "proving" that today? But I can't be sure of this, so I haven't been focusing on trying to "prove" Kath dreamed me innocent and I think Legate's analysis of her dreams looked fair/made sense.

Or you lost interest in lynching Lottie when I backed off her (I need to check the chronology), went wolf-on-wolf against Legate and when Hui engaged you about it you took the opportunity to go after him instead.

Ask yourself if a bold and aggressive wolf-Boromir, would suddenly back off on a known innocent? If I was a wolf I would have known Lottie was innocent, and I would have kept going after her, not switched up to do a wolf-on-wolf exchange with Legate. Of course, I realize this defense doesn't prove anything, just stating what happened.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

If you're innocent, you're "having a plan", if you're guilty, you're "scheming"? Ok, joking aside, I did and do think you're making some weird maneuvers which I haven't been able to follow. Naturally, that makes me worry if they're good or evil. Here the "scheming" you were doing was whatever was the point of pursuing Legate for the first half of the Day, then dropping it and going for Huin instead. I don't think it was wrong of me to think of that as nefarious. In fact, I still think it entirely possible that you and Legate are the remaining wolves (in which case, toDay has not started very well). And yeah, I still don't know what the back-and-forth between you, Huin and Legate was about. It's hard to believe you'd all be innocent. I'm planning to look at that toDay. And as for why I voted for Huin and not you - I thought you might be "scheming" but it was not my main line of suspicion. In fact, if you look back, I thought the order of suspiciousness in your trio was Huin > Legate > you (which was likely stupid of me, given even the statistic likelihood of one of you two others being a wolf).

It's not wrong to think my tricks are nefarious, I often can be. As I said, it's not the scheming that bothers me so much. It's the fact that you seem to be implying I'm up to no good with my behavior on Day 2, but decided instead to vote for Huey to "unravel the knot." So, what I'm saying is I'm not following, why did you think finding Huey's role would "unravel the knot" of what I was up to? Why wouldn't voting Legate or myself reveal the same thing?

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I could be offended, but I'm deciding not to. Yes, I agree toDay's messages have been clear. YesterDay's, nope. And I am saying the dead are not infallible. I very much doubt G55 straightaway gave them Sori's alignment. Therefore, they must have concluded it from some more vague information they got. Does this mean that it is foolproof? NO. Does it mean that we should trust it for toDay? Certainly. Does it mean that we should trust it for the rest of the game, if it goes on? I think so. I mean frankly, we don't have the time to suspect someone who is 95% likely innocent. If Soriman is a wolf somehow and we lose because of that, I'm gonna blame the dead thread. So we can discount him for now. As I belive I said before, so I don't know why you dedicated a whole post to "arguing against me". Makes me think you want to keep the village talking about information we already have, ie Soriman's innocence, instead of looking for the wolves.

I do apologize, it's not my intention to cause offense. My thinking is yesterday and today, you, sally and Pitch have tried to raise up a whole bunch of confusion about the Ghost's info, and I have no idea why because the messages they have conveyed have not been ambiguous at all. To continue questioning that information today looks to me like someone trying to increase confusion about the dead's messages. Cobblers love confusion, and I know we don't have cobblers, so that's why it looks like wolvery.

You claim that my post is wanting to continue to talk about Huey's messages today. And I say look at my other posts, have I been completely focused on Huey's messages? I don't think so. I brought it up again because I saw your comment as an attempt to cause confusion about the info Huey has given us.

Edit: This novel crossed with a bunch of others. Oh this is going to be a mad deadline. I'm considering voting within the next hour.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Pitch

Wouldn't that be convenient, for once not to have to hide their werewolfing from each other?

Honestly, that should happen sometime - can you believe we've never actually been wolves together? (I also haven't been wolves with Nogrod, or Greenie. What's the statistic likelihood for all of that? I think the universe has something against giving me chances to plot IRL.)

Originally Posted by Morsul

Yes both voted Hui and I noted Lommy telling me to not bandwagon myself then voted the same person as me(Hui Day1)

What do you mean by me telling you not to bandwagon yourself? I don't remember saying anything like that.

Pffttt it's getting late and I should go to sleep.

I might quite literally have to leave village in your hands, guys. Give me a moment to debate with myself who to vote.

Pitch looks the worst in regards to Sally.

Boro seems pretty dodgy upon rereading Day2, like I daresay he looks (even) worse than Legate for his antics.

Legate might be the best compromise because I still think the likeliest packs are either Boro-Legate or Pitch-Legate. I mean statistically that's probably our best bet.

And I can't honestly judge Legate very well; I always suck at reading him, probably wilfully because (honesty hour?) I hate playing on a different side from him so I usually just go "well he doesn't look too suspicious so I'm just gonna assume he's innocent like me and ignore him" unless he does something blatantly wolfy. I'm however aware that at this point of the game the village can't afford such an attitude from me, so I'm wondering if I shouldn't just risk living with a very grumpy Legate toMorrow if he's innocent and play it safe and vote for him.


edit: xed with Pitch and Boro

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

What do you mean by me telling you not to bandwagon yourself? I don't remember saying anything like that.

As noted in post
50

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

Boro and Legate: would you care, once again, to clearly state why on earth didn't you follow through with your main suspicions (each other) but instead went for your secondary suspicion (Huin)?

Post #195 has my reasoning:

Originally Posted by me

Well, if you believe it when I say it, it wasn't conciliation. As I said I still find those your points suspicious, but your responses back gave me a bit of pause. Huey jumped ahead of you the way he hyper zoned in on me after I was focusing in on you.

I don't like the misrepresentation that I ignored his accusation, especially since it ignored my point that I wasn't interested in distractions: See this post

I was responding to Legateto which I was pointing out I wasn't conceding that I thought Legate was guilty, but Huey jumped ahead in my mind, because I thought he was misrepresenting my reasons and said I "ignored" one of his accusations. Which I think is referring to this post:

Um... what information?! They're a pair of ordos! The only information they could have is 1) their own beliefs and 2) some arbitrary piece of data from the Mods, selected from a list we've never seen; it would be literally impossible for us to gain information on that from a single vote. The fact that apparently you looked at that and went 'hmm, I bet people are going to try and construct a scheme to utilise this valuable resource' is just... like, did you forget that you didn't manage to kill the Seer, Borowolf?

The smiley to me made it look like it wasn't that serious of a question/accusation, but when he returned to it as a way to find me suspicious and painted my answer as "I'm purposefully ignoring Huey's accusation" that's what set my red flags off.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Morsul

As noted in post
50

I still don't understand; I thought that post of yours was a reference to my suspicion of you?

Originally Posted by Boro

It's not wrong to think my tricks are nefarious, I often can be. As I said, it's not the scheming that bothers me so much. It's the fact that you seem to be implying I'm up to no good with my behavior on Day 2, but decided instead to vote for Huey to "unravel the knot." So, what I'm saying is I'm not following, why did you think finding Huey's role would "unravel the knot" of what I was up to? Why wouldn't voting Legate or myself reveal the same thing?

You're making this all about you, when in truth it was about all the three of you. As I said before, I was suspicious of all the three of you, Huin and Legate more than you. I thought voting one of you would shed light on the others' roles. Well, I can say it didn't. But I could hardly have voted for all the three of you on the same Day, so I went for Huin whom I found the most suspicious of you three and who also had two votes at that point, while you and Legate had none.

Anyway, like I said, it's late

++Legate

Errrr.... I'm very sorry if you're innocent, in the worst case the game will end and we can discuss it tomorrow over breakfast.

To the rest of you, choose well. I don't mind if you choose Pitch or Boro instead. It was a threeway coin-toss for me, really. The deadline will tell which way this goes. Just please don't lynch me, because that would be a really stupid thing to do and secure a wolf victory.

I guess if the wolves win after toDay, I'm not gonna complain because I can't claim I know who they are. Well done, to whom it may concern.


edit: xed with Boro and I guess that can be an honest reasoning if you're innocent, but it doesn't really convince me you're not in cahoots with Legate. Anyway, good night and Night if there will be one!

[Morsul the Dark]

Morsul > Pitch
Lommy> Legate

[Soriman the Whide]

Boro's defence seems pretty strong, strong enough to avoid my vote although I as he admits himself there are holes.
I'm leaning towards Pitch based on the way sally and pitch worked together to sow confusion at the end of the last day.
It's also tempting to go with Thinlómien vote for Legate but he kinda crushed my accusation so I think i'm going to go with Pitch today.

Not sure what Morsul means in his last post.

[Morsul the Dark]

Originally Posted by Soriman the Whide

Boro's defence seems pretty strong, strong enough to avoid my vote although I as he admits himself there are holes.
I'm leaning towards Pitch based on the way sally and pitch worked together to sow confusion at the end of the last day.
It's also tempting to go with Thinlómien vote for Legate but he kinda crushed my accusation so I think i'm gonna go with Pitch today.

Not sure what Morsul means in his last post.

You mean my vote count? Or the post before that. The post before that was pointing Lommy did warn me against self bandwagonning.

As for your vote why do you feel Legate “crushed” your accusation? Before you vote.

[Boromir88]

Originally Posted by Lommy

You're making this all about you, when in truth it was about all the three of you. As I said before, I was suspicious of all the three of you, Huin and Legate more than you. I thought voting one of you would shed light on the others' roles. Well, I can say it didn't. But I could hardly have voted for all the three of you on the same Day, so I went for Huin whom I found the most suspicious of you three and who also had two votes at that point, while you and Legate had none.

Ok fair, I tend to do that and can see that being the case.

Originally Posted by Lommy

To the rest of you, choose well. I don't mind if you choose Pitch or Boro instead. It was a threeway coin-toss for me, really. The deadline will tell which way this goes. Just please don't lynch me, because that would be a really stupid thing to do and secure a wolf victory.

This is unexpected, as is your vote for Legate. I mean so it's a threeway coin-toss in your opinion, and that just looks like nonchallantly "I don't care who it is, just so it's not me." That is very much not something I expect from an innocent Lommy.