WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Nienna doesn't admit BG was an innocent there. She says she thinks BG would have been 'most detrimental'. Being detrimental to the village doesn't exclude one from being a wolf, so that seems like a gross misrepresentation on your part, Zil.

No, it was here that she said that:

Originally Posted by Nienna

Zil I don't particularly like your vote for BG as your reasons could be applied to most anyone (inculding Tum who I've noticed has just done something very similar)

I, however, am going to vote for Steve as the possible Cursed. I know he is allied with us for the time being but I'd rather vote and kill him now than risk him being turned... if only for a Day it could be the difference between a Village Win and a Wolf Win. I also don't have any wolf suspects or even suspicions so I'd rather put my vote toward the Cursed pull a vote out of the air and have it turn out to be a gifted.

++ Steve

And now, good night.

"I know he is allied with the village". Wouldn't that equal innocent?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

I have given you one, others have given you others I believe.

I'm not sure about yours, but your belief in others really responding to the believability of the exact scenario is more or less non-existent.

I don't believe Nerwen's "What the Hades" was a hint though there is nothing wrong with your argument itself. I don't believe it because I don't think Nerwen's way of hinting she was Hades would be to scream "Hades". It was either Day 1 banter (more probable, as I think others have pointed out) or a hint from Persephone to Hades (which doesn't really make sense, but was my initial thought)

That's exactly the point darling! When she did that she was justifiably in the belief it would not have stood out! But then the game got into a totally another path and hardly anyone bantered or called the Gods... I'm trying to say she was thinkig it would fit in and not arouse attention but against her well-grounded beliefs it ended up calling attention.

It's easy to say, lookng at Day1 as it is now afterwards that only a fool would have put a hint in there as there is so little of any God-name-dropping (the best way to hint) - but could have not been known when the girst posters were posting.

And I do agree, Persephone has no need to hint at Hades as Hades already knows who Persephone is. It's the task of Hades to guide Persephone into guessing it right during the Nights with her PM's. So let's forget that Persephone / Nerwen talk. That is far-fwetched and illogical - still many people seem to find the improbability of Persephone hinting meaning suspicions on Nerwen are far-fetched...

My frustration comes only from this, that peole don't pick the actual argument and say it's rubbish because, but only say "Nerwen wouldn't have done that" not ewven considering the circumstances etc that the argument relies on.

Blah. Said once again. And will not say it anymore. If Nerwen is a wolf, you laid the table for her. Be my quests.

[Nogrod]

Okay. Thank's phantom. You I think are the first to actually try to get to grips with the point. I'll answer shortly as I do disagree of Nerwen's and Mac's cases to be similar.

But this quick one first:

Originally Posted by Greenie

(And at least I admit I may be wrong and consider other alternatives..)

I may be wrong as well. Only seers and wolves can claim otherwise. Also I have and will consider other alternatives - and couldn't say you have done that a lot... So how do I get an impression of shining one's boots in front of the audience from here? (If one can put it that way?)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

No, it was here that she said that:



"I know he is allied with the village". Wouldn't that equal innocent?

Okay, yes, it does. Sorry about that, Zil.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

An early head off for me, now - I won't be back before DL.

++Nogrod

His case is a big steaming bucket of double-, triple-, and quadruple-bluffing, as far as I'm concerned.

Good Night.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

My frustration comes only from this, that peole don't pick the actual argument and say it's rubbish because, but only say "Nerwen wouldn't have done that" not ewven considering the circumstances etc that the argument relies on.

*sigh* Here we go again: perhaps other people have "considered the circumstances" and found your explanation less likely than mine?

As a general comment, Nog: I don't know whether you're pressed for time, or what it is, but this game you seem to be sort of playing in a bubble. You keep complaining– quite aggressively, too– that other people are ignoring things, when the issues in question have been argued over and over and over.. and you don't seem to have noticed. In other words–

Don't you read what others post? (repeat 7x)

EDIT:X'd since Nog at #402.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by tp

The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?"

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover!

Originally Posted by tp

When that statement was pointed to yesterday, she responded with these statements-

These explanations are essentially the same thing that Mac gave to me today- a complete and utter denial of having intended anything at all.

The fact is, Hades would have known going into the day whether or not he was going to hint, and also would have been aware that such hinting was likely to be pointed out. There would be a plan in his head for that eventuality, surely? He would have an explanation ready! So, why didn't Nerwen give a more graceful and intelligent explanation (i.e. claim that she was helping the village by giving Persephone false leadings for instance)?

No- I place her explanation and Mac's in the same boat. Both make me feel better. I may be wrong, but there it is. You may not agree, Nog, but do you see my reasoning?

I see your reasoning but I must say I do disagree, at least partially. It's true they both utterly deny any suspicions on the basis of "I didn't think it that way" - and both are as bad in that, as every wolf would have answered similarly. But I do not think they are essentially the same. Especially your point about how Hades would have done gives me a pause. I mean you might have done all those preparations but I'd guess most of us wouldn't. We all don't have pages of scenarios ready before starting a game or masterplans and their variations for every possible occurence. So from time to time the wolves need to just come up with "an explanation" - graceful or not - and comparing thpose two I find two main differences: a) Mac's explanation looks more or less honest (if you can say that in this game) and Nerwen's looks more like avoiding (especially that what was there to answer about?), and b) comparing the relative merits of the hints they're claimed to have made, you (well I at least) have a believable case with Nerwen and quite a fabricated one with Mac.


Okay. I hope that is it from my part on the issue. I'll try to read something else just to freshen my mind.



ADD: just saw Nerwen's latest... until phantom's post on the issue a moment ago, no one addressed the argument - and even he kind of went just bedside it. Read up above what I'm after (or #390, or my Gods, any post I've made on the issue). I can adjust my mind if someone shows me where my point goes wrong, but as long as no one even considers it, I'm just going to get more and more frustrated. But who cares.

[wilwarin538]

Ok. I'm here, and have spent the last 30 minutes reading. And after the initial frustration and confusion, I think I've come to understand everything *sigh*. So my thoughts.

About the BoroSeer: I don't want to put any stock at all into anything he said, because he could be False. Yeah, he could be legit, but he just as easily might not be and I don't want to run after any hint of anything that could be wrong. Besides, I don't see any real hints about anyone's role except maybe the Mira one, but that would seem to be towards a positive role not a Wolf anyway. Maybe if at some point it becomes clear he *was* the real one, maybe than we can go back and see something useful.

About why BoroSeer died: could be a number of reasons. Maybe the Wolves saw the seer hints in his first post (the ones Phantom pointed out about the seerish words). Maybe they saw the hunter hints and figured the smaller the village was, the more dangerous the hunter is, so they wanted to get rid of him early. Or maybe they just thought he was a useful player and it was a good idea to get rid of him.


Now some comments on a few things:

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Don't they teach little seers in elementary school not to make jokes about seers in their first post? Now Boro is dead.

I had a look at his posts. I agree with phantom that Boro probably didn't try to hint us his alignment. (Unless he dreamt of him, found him a non-wolf, and fooled around with him a little to try to guess whether the role he dreamt of was correct.) His hint to Keeper is strange. There's a ton of things he could have thought she was and I don't understand how he got to suspect any of them. I don't think he tried to hint an Eonwe-wolf to us. Other than the -4-comment he only mentioned him once, telling us that we're talking about him enough. Now, if I knew the identity of a wolf, that's not what I'd tell people to do.

First line made me giggle, and I pretty much agree with the rest. As a side note, I don't get the supposed Hades hints coming from Mac, they seem like a bit of stretch.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

So, are you saying that as a wolf you'd rather kill the seer than leave one of your own to get killed so early on?

Because Boro basically voted for me for no reason, so obviously if the wolves killed him it would point straight to me. Wouldn't that be more than a little risky?

Uh, a) yes and b) a manageable amount of risk. It's better for the Wolves to let one of their own go, then to let the Seer live long enough to reveal the rest of them. And if you were a wolf and he hinted about you, and there was any reason to think him the seer, of course the wolves would want him dead. Wolves don't want to keep the seer alive, and if it points towards one of their own, that's something they have to risk. I really don't like your reasoning here.

Originally Posted by the phantom

On the subject of Steve- I said yesterday I didn't think he looked like Dionysus and I stick by that, so if Boro was the false Seer and dreamed of Steve then I believe he is innocent, as it's unlikely the false dream yielded the correct role. If Boro was the real Seer and dreamed Steve then I was at least right about him not being Dionysus, but obviously we should lynch him for Wolfdom. Bleh. Which is more likely?

Just the fact that the second is even a bit likely should be enough for us to consider lynching him. Mixed with the fact that even if he isn't a wolf, he could still be Dyonisis. I think it would just clear a lot of things up either way.

Originally Posted by Eönwë

Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

There isn't one. Glirdy must have considered it and then forgot to take that out of the Mytho's role discription.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue.

I was inclined to think it was just banter, but this actually really does make sense. It does seem almost too obvious for her to throw out the name of her own role like that, but if she assumed their would be a lot of banter then it wouldn't have seemed so crazy. I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one, cause otherwise Nerwen doesn't seem all too bad to me. But I do agree that it is very possible.

About the Mytho: not too much we can do about it, cause I don't *think* Glirdy was planning to hint at what the Mytho may have chosen (could be wrong though). Maybe just watch to see if anyone's behaviour takes a major shift? I dunno.

Uhm. I think that's all I have for now. I really need food, but then after that I should be around a lot. (may even be awake enough to stay up later than usual though probably not all the way til DL).

x'd with Nerwen and Nog

[Lalaith]

A lot of rowing going on, some of which is kind of hard to follow.
Well, I need to make up my mind soon as it is bedtime over here.
So first,....Our Big Beasts. I am actually not inclined to vote for any of these at present. Probably they are just fighting for the hell of it and most of them innocent anyway. Also I believe that the wolves and gifteds will sort out the high profile players – they will surely kill/dream of them at night leaving us with fewer suspects. My thoughts on them anyway…
Rikae…she does love a scrap, guilty or innocent she will never let things lie. I have never been able to tell the difference between a good or bad Rikae and this time is no different.
Nog – lots of talk and noise. Quite a lot of it makes sense but some of it is a bit more bonkers than usual. Why? Could be any number of reasons.
Phantom – definitely touchier than usual but he hasn’t played for a long time.

Next – some of the others who are coming under suspicion/attracting attention today
Mac – now I may be rusty but I don’t get where all this Mac suspicion is coming from. It could be because I was thinking along the same lines about Boro as he was, but he seems quite sensible to me.
Eonwe – now there is more cause for concern here. I agree Boro’s words are open to interpretation. But Eonwe also did something rather unhelpful today which might just have been careless but still…with not much to go on I know but with an early vote needed from me, he is a likely candidate.
Tum – Again, someone who may get my vote. Not happy about her(?) at all. Yesterday she seemed ‘off’, she was arguably the dodgiest of the BG votes and Zil’s case against her today was pretty good.
Nerwen – The Hades thing – well, maybe. If she’s Hades herself, she’s very bold. If she’s Persephone, all she would have needed to do is watch and read, so there would have been no need for such rashness. She’s definitely active and ready to get involved in all the rows.
And the rest…
Nienna – Now I didn’t much like her post today. She covered just a few players, only to say that she didn’t have a feel for half of them. Seemed overly desultory and posting-for-the-sake-of-it, although she might have just been RL busy.
Mira/Keeper – the whole Boro interchange yesterday was weird and I am not happy about her in general.
Shasta – comes, makes a few reasonably sensible statements and goes off again.
Folwren, see above, much like Shasta. Could be anything. I know some of you have said the same about me so it’s only fair to reserve judgment.
Lottie – I don’t know, I thought she seemed thoughtful yesterday but odd today. Reserving judgment
Zil – I liked the case he made against Tum, and he seemed to be unhappy about Nienna’s post as was I. as with Mac, I tend to trust those who seem to be thinking the way I do, so…
Sally – like I said, I thought she was acting oddly yesterday but I feel better about her today
Greenie – active, thoughtful and clearly trying to be fair – so I trust her for now
Wilwa – not seen her around as much today but seemed helpful yesterday so I’m quite at ease with her
Kath – her voice was ever soft, gentle and low, an excellent thing in woman, I suppose, but not necessarily during WW. Come on girl, check in and lets hear what you’ve got to say…

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

So the choice could be a random-one an innocent takes (count in name-recognition and relevance of the God's abilities to the situation), but it is one of many choices an innocent might have had - and the pick just happened to be the one wolf who needs to send a message to his lover!

Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of. Yes (as I realised after the event) that mention of Hades could, in principle, have been a hint.

But it wasn't. That's all there is to say. I am not Hades, and that comment was not meant to be a hint of any kind, just colour.

People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?

EDIT:X'd with Wilwa and Lalaith.

[Nogrod]

Few general issues then.

Looking at Boro's hints I find it disturbing - like Rikae suggested - that his first post was clearly thought of and he made tp the central character of it. Was it to do what he "knew" about him or just a vehicle by which to build his seer-hint? I don't know.

All that Mira thing sounds odd - as several people have said. I could see some general confusion-making behind it but to ask for protection that way? It doesn't sound like Boro - at least if that was what he "knew" thus excluding all other "knowledge" of people. Or if he just wanted to trick people thinking he was the lover of someone (someone I think entertained that idea already) - nice cover against wolves at Night but seemingly not working...

(Btw. using parenthesis with the word "knowledge" just because we don't know if he was the real or the false seer)

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Originally Posted by Boro answering ot Blind Guardian

Anyone who's not a wolf, who dies will probably hurt us ya know. I can say the same about myself, the question in this will be the degree of hurt. Cus right now I'd venture to guess that on a scale of 1 to 10...if I were theoretically up to be lynched, and I was, it would probably hurt the village about a 7. You, I'm pegging at a 5 so far.

Voting Eonwë he then said this:

Originally Posted by Boro

I said Blind was about a 5 on the scale of 1 to 10. Eonwe's looking like a "neg" 4

So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?


Hah, I see things happening... needs to stop and read...

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Yes. And it is interesting that from all the 20 characters she picked up one of the two God-wolfs who had to really desperately contact their lover as early as possible. To be fair, Hades as a random-choice is not too bad (look at the carnage that is coming!). But Zeus would be the most understandable (as the King of the Gods), and also Ares (there's a war brewing on here!), Pallas Athene (We need your wisdom to solve this!), Apollo (We need your keen eyes to help us!), Eros (Oh, let love prevail insterad of anger!)... you see it?

Ok, Nog, I see what you're missing here; however, I don't seem to be able to explain it without implied swearing.
Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Ok, Nog, I see what you're missing here; however, I don't seem to be able to explain it without implied swearing.
Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.

Exactly. I was referring to Hades the place. I'm sure I explained that yesterDay.

[autume98]

I haven't gone through all the thread yet, but I do want to post my reasoning for the reason I voted BG yesterday since I've noticed a few concerns.

The reason I didn't vote for Mac yesterday is simply because I wanted to keep Eonwe around for a little bit longer. At the time Eonwe was also being looked at being lynched. At the time specualation was that he may be Dionysis, and I wasn't ready to lynch him yesterDay. I felt like we should keep him around and in order to do that I had to vote for BG. If I would've had enough people on my side I would've voted for Mac.

[Folwren]

I'm about half way through treading page 10, I think. I've got to know - who the blazes is 'Tum'? I keep seeing that name, but to my memory, there is no player with that screen name, and I know that Downers have nick-names, but I don't know 'em all. At first I thought it was the Phantom, but he has other names. Is it autume98? People call her(him?) autume.

So, I'm confused, and the name 'Tum' comes up a lot.

Sorry.

I'm sitll reading. I doubt I'll have time to post anything of value as most of my reading is speed reading anyway. I probably won't vote today. This is really crummy.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Folwren

I'm about half way through treading page 10, I think. I've got to know - who the blazes is 'Tum'?

That would be the poster above you.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Oh, for Zeus's sake! Stop. Repeating. That.

Yes, everybody has heard the "Nerwen could be Hades hinting argument". You weren't the one to come up with it, either, so stop acting like you're doing something terribly clever, that nobody else has thought of.
...
People aren't saying "the argument is rubbish", no, they're saying, "yes, it's an argument, but I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". Which is an entirely valid response.

I'm not saying I'm doing something terribly clever. One of the best reasons to have a slight trust on Mac is that he was the one to point it out. The problem is that people are not doing what you claim, eg. saying "I don't agree with it because of such-and-such". That part has been really lacking. But anyway, as I said, I'm more than fed with that issue right now. They're clearly not lynching you toDay so let it be - and I will let it be. And I'll probably vote for another toDay myself anyway.

And Greenie is right: you've by and large simply refused to consider alternative points of view– in fact you seem to be taking them as signs of guilt. What, for instance, is this talk of tp "framing" Mac?

I don't agree with the case he made, by the way, but do you understand that your use of "framing" there is an accusation? Did you mean it to be?

No. I'm taking in all the alternative points possible. I have not said "I know you're a wolf" (how could I?) and I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick). It's just you're the best - or the second best bet I have right now. And those can change -and do change as the game goes on. My frustration has been more of the nature of "don't you freakin see what I mean" (the answer is generally no - Wilwa seems to have been one of the few who realised what I meant) than that "I need to get you hanged". I have nothing against you as such - and it is possible that at some point if I get reason to trust you - I will defend you as well as I can.

I need to get a wolf hanged, a wolf. Not you especially or anyone else. But the one who looks the m0ost suspicious to me with the information available at the time.

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him ), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

[Kath]

Warning: stream of consciousness.

The major Nog/Greenie/phantom argument is revolving around the idea of hints, yes? Basically, that hints were seen in Boro's posts, and it turned out that rather than the Hades hint that everyone leaped on being an actual hint, it was those relating to being the Seer that was in fact real. I'm not quite sure where I'm going here. It just feels like a lot of people are saying 'well look Boro's hints turned out to be truthful ... therfore Nerwen's and Mac's potential hints must also be right'. But Nerwen mentioned Hades not anything else (that I noticed - though I didn't notice Boro's Seer hints so that's not saying much) - and Boro's Hades 'hint' turned out to be nothing. I'm confusing myself. It just feels slightly hypocritical I think. If you'd been right about Boro hinting to be Hades you can't be right about Boro hinting to be the Seer and vice versa - he wasn't both. Also, whatever hints Boro may or may not have left, and whether he was the true Seer or the false Seer - it is likely we'll need more than the evidence from one Day to be able to read a huge amount into them.

In short (ish) - those who are focused so heavily on these hints seem suspicious to me. I know, I know that right now these are interesting and discussion-producing ... but the focus is causing these major ructions that are a beautiful distraction whether for the current loudmouths or for those who are quietly letting them get on with it.

Couple of questions probably aimed at the Mod - do we get any information in the narrations as to what has happened with the Mythomaniac? I think I saw that asked earlier but didn't see an answer. Will we know if we've not got more wolves? Also, there were questions about the Cobbler - is there a Cobbler as a separate role or is the Cursed pretty much a Cobbler?

Then there was the Eonwe/Dionysus business. I don't really know Eonwe's playing style. There are players who might well announce their role (within the boundaries of the game) Day 1 and sit back to watch everyone argue it out. Fea comes to mind. Is Eonwe that bold a player?

I'm glad those who were a bit quieter yesterDay seem to be back toDay and getting involved. In this game I don't think so many quiet players are likely to be lynched - Blind Guardian was probably a bit of an exception and unlucky to be playing in a game with so many veterans who just wanted to get on with it. That said, and despite my appalling hypocrisy here given I'm going to manage one post toDay, I hope the attention keeps up. Like I said, with loudmouths arguing it's too easy for quieter players to slip under the radar ... not actually that we have that many.

Anyway. Bedtime for me, especially as I'm starting to ramble. So from what I've said above my main suspects have to be Nogrod, phantom and Greenie. Nog and phantom have both reacted over-zealously, bringing emotion and sarcasm into play much more than Greenie which sort of logically makes me suspect them more. Nog I have seen act this way before. phantom I don't recall having done it. phantom is generally calm (as I recall) when suspected as a wolf, but I wouldn't put it past him to put on a show to negate that. Nog's 'do you read what other's post thing' I found quite odd and actually quite rude, and despite having seen him overreact in this way before this does seem to have blown up over two different ways of looking at a point - a dichotomy he has accepted in the past.

So:

++NOGROD

And my apologies for being missing toDay. I've been in my house a grand total of an hour and a half toDay!

[Nerwen]

Bt,. I wonder if we should add a list of players' nicknames to that Glossary thread? The ones that aren't self-explanatory, anyway. You know, like "Steve", or "Stick".

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[Folwren]

Hey....guys? I know I don't have much weight here or anything, and I know I haven't added much to the conversation, but...I don't think that we should lynch Nogrod tonight. I know I'm sticking my neck out to defend him, but I kind of think that he shouldn't be killed just yet.

But my opinion is even stronger concerning The Phantom. Through what I've read today, it seems to me that he's pretty innocent, if not gifted (in a good way).

I don't know about anyone else. My reading over today's posts has been very fast, very poor, and not very indepth. I don't have many ideas on anyone else, other than Phantom being innocent. So, later this evening I'll try to read things better and maybe post something more informative, and maybe vote.

-- Foley

[Eönwë]

Anyway, the list, though I suppose it became a little 'stream-of-conciousness-y' about halfway through writing it.


In the Mod of the gods' order:

Wilwa- Not sure. Her first three posts are mostly about it being strange that Boro separated Zeus from the other lovers, and insisting on that being important, which basically led to the whole Boro-Zeus-hints thing. Later she rescinds the matter and accepts what Boro says about Zeus being the good side. She then rejects the Zeus/Hades thing but considers the Cursed hypothesis a bit more. She also raises an interesting (and still unanswered) point about how a Cursed will show up when dead. But then she ruins a lot of the positive feeling I had about her by being the 4th vote for BG, which makes her two votes ahead of me, and basically makes it become a true bandwaggon, which could (and eventually does) lead to her death. And though she seems innocent the rest of the time, this does almost balance it out. I suspect that she may be a Lover (probably the innocent half).

Kath- Has three posts, which is too little to form a proper opinion on. But I don't think her vote for BG looks bad. It was the first vote for her, and she casts it for reasonable reasons (Er, yeah, bad phrasing, but I can't think of any other way to say it right now). And the rest of her last post seems generally innocent. But a quiet Kath is an unreadable Kath, and when she is quiet (which is usually) you can never see if she's evil until it's too late.

Mira- Hasn't actually said anything other than that she doesn't think that any of the god mentions are hints/slips. A BG voter, but if it's true that she x-ed with all those people, then I suppose it's reasonable.

Zil- Sneaky and cunning. As usual. He could be on any side at the moment, but I'm inclined to think that he's on the good side, at least for now. His suspicions seem justified (You know, except for the Cursed thing, but I suppose it was almost a generally accepted fact yesterDay) and his dfgfdg. He cast the second vote for BG, and that means that it changed her from a suspicion into a viable lynch-choice, which in hindsight seems bad, but I suppose at the time was probably quite justified. And I would have written off the long autume post as a pointless way to look helpful, but the last three lines show that he may really be onto something.

Lottie- Tons of banter and silliness, but some good stuff too. I didn't (and still don't) really agree with her about the False Seer leaving behind clues that suggest false Sight. For example, look at Boro. We can't even tell what his normal clues are! Most of her posts are one liners, but the serious ones make sense and/or good points. One problem though is that she accused Tum and Mac of being evil and then held her vote until near the end, meaning that she couldn't vote for either of them without it being a throwaway, which could be an easy tactic so that she doesn't seem too determined to get anyone killed and just voted what she thought was the lesser of two evils. It would be nice if she was innocent, but I'm not completely sure.

Nienna- Her first post makes sense (where she talks about the false Seer on our side), but in her last two posts she seems easily (maybe too easily) convinced that I'm the Cursed. In terms of talking about who she finds suspicious, her three post go something like this:
1. No suspicions yet -> 2. Mentioning Dionysus makes Eonwe look Cursed -> 3. That's enough to make me lynch Eonwe.
Other than me, she only says that she "doesn't particularly like" Zil's vote. She seems like she's just focused on targeting me, which as an innocent would mean that she could miss other things, but could also suggest that she's evil and just trying to shift/keep discussion focused on me (like Nogrod tried to do, but I'll get to him later), so that either I get killed because that Dionysus thing made me an easy target, or it shifts away focus from other, more sinister things. Or both. She doesn't look good to me.

Nerwen- Too many posts to look at right now, but seems innocent as far as I can tell.

Folwren- Not sure about her. She has some reasonable observations in her first post, but then tries to devalue them by saying they're worth even less than the usual 'just two cents'. Also, she asks us to not to "read too much into this vote," which is never a good thing to say when you're voting. And she calls her reasoning for voting me "pathetic". Again, that makes it sound suspicious when it most probably isn't (and she's just being honest about how she feels her post is). And it was early Day 1, and there wasn't much to go on, so perhaps we can forgive her for that. I've never played with her before, but she seems quite innocent to me.

Tum- Not going to go into much detail, but I generally agree with Inzil's long post. And I don't think she's posted toDay, so I'll leave it at that for now.

Lalaith- Speaks sense and wisdom, as usual. So I have no idea what she is, but what she's said seems helpful so far, so I'd like to see her stay for now at least.

Greenie- Not sure what to think about her at all. In general she seems reasonable and resistant to following Nogrod's poorly reasoned theory that I am the Cursed, which he seems to be sticking to no matter what. And no, not just because it's me. She does generally seem innocent to me, but something (I'm not sure what) seems a bit off.

Rikae- Worryingly has more posts than our favourite (or maybe not, depending on your preference) ghost. See Nerwen, but she doesn't seem as innocent.

Shasta- Missed most of yesterDay, still seems to be catching up toDay. Don't really know yet.

Mac- Talks sense. A lot. But on the first Day, I think he focused too much on Lovers, and I don't think it's out of the question for him to be one. I also liked his 'Day 1 in 3 stages' thing at the time, but now I think that that could have also been thought up by a Wolf-Mac. I'm not sure about his vote, but other than that he's looking better and better as the game goes on. And toDay, his talk of lovers has gone. Perhaps he's Hephaestus, and is now just a wolf now that his lover is dead. Of course, the fact that he didn't vote BG is of little matter because it's highly unlikely that he found her on Night 1. But he does correct Nerwen to tell her that the third wolf lover is Hephaestus, not Ares, which might be hint towards his true nature, especially since the follows it with the "frustrating to be alone" sentence, which many have taken as a Lover hint. The way Mac posts looks quite innocent, but the content just seems like he is possibly a Lover/Wolf (My guess would be Hephaestus). He definitely needs to be watched.

Nog- I think he deserves a post of his own, but for now I'll say that I don't like what I'm seeing.

Phantom- See Nerwen. Only I don't like how he's playing and I think maybe we should get rid of him before he ends up controlling the village without us realising.

Sally- Has posted much less than usual, but I think that's due to internet problems and stuff, so I'm not too worried yet. But still, long posts from Sally seem a bit unusual. And though most of her posts are just banter and silliness the little time she spends talking about serious matters, she makes sense and seems innocent. On the other hand, I'm not too keen on her BG argument. It seems a bit of a stretch, even for Day 1, and may just have been a way to justify cementing the BG-waggon. It also allows her to distance herself from the two bangwaggons yesterDay, while contributing to one, which would be quite a clever ploy. But I have to admit it does sound a bit too far-fetched to be a wolfish ploy, so she's probably just an innocent. And it also happens that the BG-vote was at a time when I was tied for highest number of votes with her, so it may just have been that she felt that even though the BG theory was far-fetched, she still seemed more suspicious than me at the time to her. I don't know.


So, in summary:

Innocent:

Seem alright:
Sally
Lalaith
Nerwen
Zil

No idea:
Greenie
Folwren
Lottie

Not enough posts:
Shasta (no idea)
Mira (no idea)
Kath (leaning innocent)

Not so good:
Rikae
Wilwa

Evil Tendencies:
Nienna
Tum
Phantom

Evil:
Nog
Mac


I also just want to note that it's not good that a dead Boro has more posts than four still-living players.

Note: I will write another post for Nerwen, Rikae and Phantom tomorrow/toMorrow depending on how early I wake up. Right now I want to focus on Nogrod.

I'm not even going to bother editing, because I'm sure hundreds (Ok, slight exaggeration) of people will have posted since my last post.

[Eönwë]

Originally Posted by Nienna

And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos.

I knew that, I just mentioned Kath's post because that's what prompted me to reread.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear.

That's what I was hoping- I was just bothered by the fact that he kept the word Cobbler in there.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Basically, there is the expression "what the ____?", where _____ is the (negative) Christian underworld - in other words, Hades. So really, any other name would have made far less sense.

I must confess, I don't understand that at all! I mean what the _____? Yeah, I know what is Hades, the place, but what the ____ it has to do with anything here?

But now I need to know. Really.

Do you mean there is something like a curse or saying that is widely-used in English-speaking countries (at least both Australia and the US.) that is used in a situation anywhere similar or comparable to the one we faced as players in the beginning of the game? And what is that reference to a "negative(???) non-christian underwolrd"? Why didn't you just say Hades, the dwelling of the dead, if that is what you mean? So did you just mean "Where the F? Where the F is Hades?" or did that christianity stuff have some other meaning in there? Sorry, communication's hard sometimes.

When more than the number of wolves and the wannabes (cursed & mytho) tell me that is a usual thing to say when in trouble, I'll promise to reconsider (a wise wolf would use that chance to be sure, it would even make it a better hint, less obvious - but would also explain easier the choice of Hades there).

And anyway, if that is a common curse, why didn't someone just say that a long time ago? It would have made it a different case.

BLah. Could you stop coming up with things concerning this speacial case? I'd like to do something else - and get to bed!

[Lalaith]

Oh curse these early votes. So difficult to decide.
Well as things stand it is between Eonwe and autume for me. Now Tum hasn't even been on today to defend herself, so it seems harsh to vote for her...I'm going to go for Eonwe. As I said before, there's a reasonable Boro-based case against him and the something else too.

++ Eonwe

[Eönwë]

Ok, well my mind's stopped functioning, so I'll try to wake up early and get my Nog-post and vote in before the DL. And now I won't try to write anything Ancient-Greece themed or mention any Greek gods because otherwise it'll be misinterpreted as a hint of some sort.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I have admitted it could be some other way (like saying that Hades might be a reasonable choice for a random God-pick).

But not my actual explanation– I think I said this pretty clearly yesterDay– which is that it wasn't a "God-pick" at all, but rather that I was using "Hades" = abode of the dead = "hell" (roughly). I was making a joke of using a "Greek" version of the common English profanity, "what the h---". It didn't occur to me that it could be taken any other way, though I admit that was rather stupid of me. Now do you understand?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose. Yeah, it might be he was just testing Mac (he loves testing people but hates it when other people test him ), or whatever scenarios he had in mind. Who knows? But I thought the word "framing" was in place there.

Some of it was a stretch, like the "being alone in this" stuff. Yet, Mac did seem particularly occupied with the Hades/Persephone topic, and I can see how some of his early comments might look like hints. I think it was worth asking him to explain, anyway. So I do think "framing" is an extreme way to describe it.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now, if you don't mind, we change subject. Could we?

Sure.

EDIT:X'd since my last post.

[the phantom]

Nog- you've never heard English speaking people exclaim "What the h---?!" before? Yes, it's quite common, and seeing as Hades is an oft used substitute for h--- the expression is quite understandable.

Anyway, need to catch up on what's been happening...

[Lalaith]

Just realised... as everyone is so obsessed with hints and word-clues, I think I need to clarify that my use of the word 'curse' just there meant I was cross and any resemblance to any ww role living or dead is entirely co-incidental. Nightynight.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Do you mean there is something like a curse or saying that is widely-used in English-speaking countries (at least both Australia and the US.) that is used in a situation anywhere similar or comparable to the one we faced as players in the beginning of the game? And what is that reference to a "negative(???) non-christian underwolrd"? Why didn't you just say Hades, the dwelling of the dead, if that is what you mean? So did you just mean "Where the F? Where the F is Hades?" or did that christianity stuff have some other meaning in there? Sorry, communication's hard sometimes.

*headdesk*
So that's what it's all about. You really didn't know.

EDIT:X'd since last post.

[satansaloser2005]

Is it possible for us to stop talking about curses? Please?

Of course, talking about curseds is fine.


I'm here for a bit and will poke together a list as I snack on my tasty pasta. Back soon.

[Nerwen]

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

Is it possible for us to stop talking about curses? Please?

Well, I hope so.

Here's something to talk about, which I raised earlier: Blind Guardian did, I think, drop a hint about her role. I never picked it up until after she died, but it's possible Hephaestus was looking a bit harder.

It may be worth seeing if anyone seemed to be particularly protective of her. (Or to be hinting back, perhaps– though look where searching for hints has got us...)

[autume98]

Just want to make sure everyone saw my post. I noticed a couple of people had missed it. Look here to see my post explaining my vote.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Nog- you've never heard English speaking people exclaim "What the h---?!" before? Yes, it's quite common, and seeing as Hades is an oft used substitute for h--- the expression is quite understandable.

So it was not the other four-letter curse that starts with F but the one which starts with H (and thence the christianity-stuff)? Okay. Now I see. I'm clearly too used to that f-word or at least seeing it being censored. Then it makes perfect sense he-l and hades are interchangeable enough to explain the choice.

But like I said, it actually makes it so much better as hints go... but enough of it now.

It's so healthy to find oneself a total dummy every once in a while.

Although I must add that that kind of humour where one changes words in a sentence or syllables in a word is pretty hard to a non-native because the associations don't bring up naturally but need to be specifically searched for - and it thus requires you to need to know now is time to search for one.


Well, I see enough vultures gathering around already on another front so let's end this for the moment. I'd like to have a look on a few things before getting to sleep - and they must be fed, mustn't they?

[autume98]

Originally Posted by Nerwen

Well, I hope so.

Here's something to talk about, which I raised earlier: Blind Guardian did, I think, drop a hint about her role. I never picked it up until after she died, but it's possible Hephaestus was looking a bit harder.

It may be worth seeing if anyone seemed to be particularly protective of her. (Or to be hinting back, perhaps– though look where searching for hints has got us...)

It looks like she did give a hint here:

Originally Posted by Blind Guardian

I've drinken and I'm not 16. It's where I get my good looks from. Though I'm not French. Though I wouldn't drink that much, true. Dionyses doesn't have a lover. So is Eönwë hinting that he's Dionyses?

Not sure if anyone picked up on the hint. I'll will have to go back and see.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

With tp's "case" against Mac it's clearly different. That was pure fabrication. It was actually such a foolish thing I did use the word framing on purpose.

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

Originally Posted by Nog

I would still come to his Eonwë -thing as the most likely seer hint (surprise-surprise, but then again I wouldn't have gone after someone that steadily for nothing).

So here's once again what Boro said about anyone who's not a wolf hurting us if dying:

Voting Eonwë he then said this:

So if an innocent dying hurts us on a positive scale (the more the worst), then someone dying and going to the negative side of the scale would not be innocent. That is downright plausible.

To me the only questions that remain, are whether Boro was the real or the false seer and did he see him as a cursed or as a wolf?

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

[wilwarin538]

I feel like making a list:


Look good to me

Lalaith: I feel quite good about, makes good sense.
Kath: though she hasn't posted much I'm getting very good vibes, I especially appreciate her last post, she couldn't come on much but still was sure to cover basically every major topic.
Nerwen: though I get what Nog was trying to say, I'm going to give Nerwen the benefit of the doubt here, I really think it was just banter.
Rikae: just seems like regular Rikae to me

Under my reindeer/not enough posts

Tum
Nienna
Zil (but he's posted a lot, so I don't know why, just nothing has stood out I guess)
Lottie
Mira
Shasta

Iffy/Confused about, but not necessarily willing to vote for

Sally: I can't even explain why, it's purely a gut a thing, and the usual confusion that comes along with her.
Phantom: cause he's the Phantom, and ya never know with him. But he seems to be fairly logical, and I don't see what's so touchy about his posts. I really wouldn't want to get rid of a big poster though either. So I'll stick with being 'wary of' but not willing to get rid of yet.
Folwren: she seems to constantly be second guessing herself, or making it sound like we should overlook her posts or not take them seriously. Which I find fairly odd.
Greenie: plain and simple, I just have no idea.
Nog: mostly is quite reasonable, but he accuses tp of being touchy, and then seems quite touchy himself. And even though I understand his point about Nerwen, I just feel like he got overly sensitive about people not agreeing with him (even if there was some confusion about english curse words). But again, like the Phantom, I'd hate to get rid of a big poster so early.
Eonwe: the Dyonisis thing still is very odd, and is still taking up a lot of discussion. And his one defense that I pointed out in my first post of the Day was quite strange. I *think* I'd be willing to vote him, if not mostly just to clear up a few things.

So Eonwe is an option, but I would much rather have more solid suspicions then just a little reference, coupled with the curiosity of what he is. But I still have quite a few more hours to decide.

x'ed with bunches

[autume98]

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post.

Edit: x-ed with tp and wilwa

[the phantom]

*laughs at Tum*

Why do you want us to ignore your last post? BG did in fact make a beauty reference in it, so it still fits.

[wilwarin538]

Just realised I think I forgot Mac. He would go in my OK with category, cause I don't think he was hinting at being Hades, just seems like a stretch (I get the reasoning behind thinking he was hinting, but I just don't think it's likely). And besides that he just seems reasonable.

Originally Posted by Tum

So apparently I'm a little confused. I know shocker! I thought for some reason the Aphrodite had to do with wine. I looked it up and it has to do with Love and Beauty. So please ignore the above post.

Actually, that quote still works. As the Goddess of Love and Beauty, and she said "where I get my good looks from".

x'ed with phantom

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Hey now! His quote about "being alone" combined with his possible scripture reference of Hades "giving up" the dead combined with his plea for us to look for hints... I mean- you can say that it's stretching, but do not call it fabricated or foolish. I believe my case was wrong after hearing Mac speak, and I never stated that it was incredibly compelling to begin with (plus in my explanation later to Mac I explained that I was partly leaning towards him being Demeter, not Hades- did you skip over that?). You're going overboard and seemingly trying to paint me to look like I'm making things up or lying, and that's just a completely untrue assessment.

I know you like to play mind-games and test people; and that requires "making things up". Many of us do that to check how people react to them etc. And really, being the only one having an opinion and complaining about it is nothing odd (I should know!), the scripture-reference should be hewn overboard in this case just because the reference will not be familiar to most native-speakers either (unless active learned christians, I suppose?), and we all, well quite a host of us, talked about needing to find the hints (what else have we actually discussed if I may ask?). So saying that becasue of those Mac is especially suspicious? Stretched, yes. I would say more than that but sadly miss the vocabulary to more refinedly say a fabrication... framed was the one that came to mind. And you do frame when you test, don't you?

Anyway, I like it far better now.

Well, well, we actually have found one point in common. In respect to Boro and his dreaming you have reached the same conclusion as me (see my post earlier today). I think the main difference between us on this matter was that I came into the day inclined to view Eonwe more innocently than you (and thus I probably think it more likely than you do that Boro was the false Seer).

I do actually lean on voting for Eonwë (his actions toDay haven't exactly made him look better) and do not have too much time, so could you tell me what makes you think Boro was the false seer rather than the true one? I mean he didn't know it himself which one he was and thus you can't read it from his behaviour, so what's your view?