WWLXXI: Something in the Night (Attempt #2)

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Here and reading and not in the best of moods. I have two pages to catch up on (and no, that's not why I'm in a bad mood, so don't worry, .)

*snuggles you*

[Shastanis Althreduin]

++Izzy

to get that out of the way. Also, major, major apologies for not being here today - I got dragged along to a birthday party that lasted FOREVER OMG. And it wasn't even one of my friends. Not fun.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I don't guess there's a whole lot more to say toDay, is there? Hopefully I'll have some insights toMorrow.

[satansaloser2005]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I don't guess there's a whole lot more to say toDay, is there? Hopefully I'll have some insights toMorrow.

Well is there any way to get a quick list of how you feel about everyone else? Mehbe?

[satansaloser2005]

Well I suppose that's it for toDay then. Ranger, it's all up to you now. Rock on.


Night everyone!

[Gwathagor]

[I don't feel like writing narration at the moment, but I'll try to put something together tomorrow.]

Izzy is dead. She was the betrayer.

***
Night 4 has begun.


The Living
Johnny 99 - Nogrod
City Dude - Inziladun
Gypsy Biker - Shasta
Crazy Janey - Alonariel
Boardwalk Sandy - Sally
Jersey Girl - Wilwarin
Wendy - Lariren

The Dead
Jimmy the Saint - Morsul - The Highwayman (Hunter)
Wild Billy - Glirdan - Innocent
Rosalita - Loslote - Innocent
Mary - Rikae - Innocent
Bad Scooter - Isabellkya - The Betrayer (Wolf)

[Gwathagor]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khHLJ6IRb6k

Sandy dreamed. She dreamed of kids driving aimlessly through town, music loud. She dreamed she saw lovers walking hand in hand, laughing. She dreamed of alleys without shadows, of a city without disappointment, of a land where hope never let you down. She dreamed that she had never been alone and never would be.

She remembered slow-dancing in the dark on the beach at Stockton's Wing, holding someone tight as tight as she could. She remembered all those long evenings at Greasy Lake. Days at the circus. Wild Billy and his friend G-Man, flying through town. Evenings with Mary out at the race track. Rosie leading through the steps of the E-Street Shuffle. She remembered the carefree, innocent years, when life had seemed so far away.

Then she was awake, standing in the doorway just out of the rain. The city hit her like a slap in the face: the girls on the corner, the rain pouring down, the dark and silent cars which crept through the streets. She strained her ears, listening for some happy sound. Far off, she thought she heard a motorcycle, but it was too far away to tell. Tears welled up in her eyes and she stepped out into the rain, raising her face and hands to the sky. There were footsteps. She turned.

BLAM!

Sandy fell to the wet pavement, shot dead.

***
Day 4 has begun.

The Living
Johnny 99 - Nogrod
City Dude - Inziladun
Gypsy Biker - Shasta
Crazy Janey - Alonariel
Jersey Girl - Wilwarin
Wendy - Lariren

The Dead
Jimmy the Saint - Morsul - The Highwayman (Hunter)
Wild Billy - Glirdan - Innocent
Rosalita - Loslote - Innocent
Mary - Rikae - Innocent
Bad Scooter - Isabellkya - The Betrayer (Wolf)
Boardwalk Sandy - Sally - The Dreamer (Seer)

[wilwarin538]

Wow no one has posted.


So this sucks. Poor Sally....

I need to change to a different room for class, but I'll be back on in like 20 minutes and I'll ignore my teacher (like usual) and provide some thoughts, in order to get things started.

[Inziladun]

Well, we lost our Seer, but it's not over yet, folks. We can still win this, unless you've given up?

I don't see us getting anything from the Izzy voters, because all her votes came after Sally outed her.

I think we have a good chance at getting a wolf with either Nog or Shasta. I was a bit concerned yesterDay with the way Wilwa seemed to be hanging on Sally's every word, and making what appeared to be a concerted effort to appear helpful and innocent. However, I think Nog looks worse than she at this point. I noted the way he seemed unwilling to take the hint from Sally that he should vote Izzy, needing a full admission from Sally about her dream before voting for her, even though he had thrown out some weak suspicion of Izzy. Sally had obviously not wanted to reveal the dream just yet, and it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Nog missing the hints.

Shasta still feels bad to me as well. I know he says he's been busy, but he's been around so little any serious analysis of him looks to be well-nigh impossible. And he didn't respond to Sally's request for his thoughts before DL, though he had about 10 minutes, time enough to post something.

Anyway, back at work toDay, looking in as I can.

x/d with Wilwa (after nearly 11 hours of nothing)

[wilwarin538]

Who's left:

Nogrod
Inziladun
Shasta
Alonariel
Wilwarin
Lariren

2 are wolves, 1 is the Ranger, then 3 ords. If we don't get a wolf today, then we most likely lose.

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

Looking at the Lover pairs:

Sally/Glirdan: seer/ordo
Morsul/Wilwa: hunter/unknown
Izzy/Rikae: wolf/ordo
Lottie/Nog: ordo/unknown
Shasta/Alona: unknown/unknown
Dun/Lari: unknown/unknown

I know I'm an innocent. So either all of the pairs are a role (wolf, gifted) with an ordo, or Nog really is an ord and either the Shasta/Alona or the Dun/Lari pair is made up of two wolves. I still however see it as unlikely that there are 2 wolves paired together. Yes it's possible that a gifted could be paired with a wolf (I don't think so, but I'm staying open minded), which would implicate myself and whoever the Ranger is paired with.

Sally very clearly referred to the Ranger as being a SHE. So I'm not touching Alona or Lari toDay. (though I'm not actually really suspicious of either at this point anyway)

So I think that our wolves our among Inzil, Shasta and Nog. I'm kinda suspicious on some level of all three. But because of my little theory about the Lover pairings, Nog seems like the most likely wolf to me, so I think I might go with him. We'll see how the Day goes though.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Sally very clearly referred to the Ranger as being a SHE. So I'm not touching Alona or Lari toDay. (though I'm not actually really suspicious of either at this point anyway)

I feel somewhat better about alona, and I still don't get anything particularly wolfish from Lari.

[Inziladun]

Also, Wilwa, you say your top three suspects are male, yet the Ranger, who you think is likely to be female, should reveal?

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Also, Wilwa, you say your top three suspects are male, yet the Ranger, who you think is likely to be female, should reveal?

Like I said later on, I don't find either of the girls suspicious anyway, so whether the Ranger reveals or not I'm not going to vote for either of them. I was more just putting out the idea for everyone's oppinion, incase someone saw some benefit to the reveal that I hadn't noticed.

[Lariren Shadow]

Poor Sally, we will miss her.

Wilwa makes a good point about how Sally called the Ranger a she. So that narrows down our chances of guess who the Ranger is. So that leaves the wolf among the males.

I have no idea how Gwath paired people up but if we go with the idea that he didn't put wolves together, which goes with the whole "the Ranger is a she" then Nog, Inzil, or Shasta is a wolf, and probably two of them are packmates.

I want to hear more from Shasta on the point, mostly because he really hasn't been here. Nog and Inzil have been contributing.

[alonariel]

At this point in the game, I think the best thing the Ranger can do is keep the ordo count up for as long as possible.

Of the three boys left, I'm most suspicious of Nog, less so of Shasta. It's a good point how Nog essentially forced Sally to reveal earlier than she would have liked. Her plan was to try and draw out information out of Izzy before exposing her, but with Nog insisting on a vote to back up her reveal, we weren't able to get anything. At that point, the only person to have voted was Lari. Though his vote might have been throwaway, there were still enough people left to secure a majority to lynch Izzy, yet Nog still insisted on having an outright vote from Sally.

As for Shasta, I really wish he would post more. I haven't been able to get any vibes from the content or rhythms of his posts. I'd really appreciate it if he posted a list or something that shows his suspicions at this point.

Knowing the Ranger is a she, though, means I most likely won't vote for either Lari or Wilwa.

[wilwarin538]

hmm hmm. Yeah, I'm leaning towards Nog and Inzil. But more strongly towards Nog. If nothing major occurs I'll probably go with him. There's still a big part of me that doesn't think two ords would be paired together, so he just seems most likely to me. This whole Day is nerve racking though, cause if we're wrong we've lost. Gosh, I wish Sally was still here, I was becoming so dependent on her.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

Well, we lost our Seer, but it's not over yet, folks. We can still win this, unless you've given up?

This must be the single most wolvish-looking sentence for toDay.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I was a bit concerned yesterDay with the way Wilwa seemed to be hanging on Sally's every word, and making what appeared to be a concerted effort to appear helpful and innocent.

I do agree. And not only that, but also trying to get an innocent lynched with all her effort...


But as I see there are many voicing the idea (late yesterDay and toDay) that I'm one of the top candidates I think some speaking of sense would be in place to begin with.

Originally Posted by Inzil

However, I think Nog looks worse than she at this point. I noted the way he seemed unwilling to take the hint from Sally that he should vote Izzy, needing a full admission from Sally about her dream before voting for her, even though he had thrown out some weak suspicion of Izzy. Sally had obviously not wanted to reveal the dream just yet, and it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Nog missing the hints.

Well I think I have a few things to say on this issue...

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Sally said in her first post as an answer to alona's question "any luck dreaming of a wolf?" the following (boldings mine):

Originally Posted by Sally

As a matter of fact I might have. However....
Since toDay may be my last Day -again- I'd like to leave you lot a bit of something to chew on. That being said, I will reveal my dream(s) at the end of the Day. With the information I have (or even without it) we've nearly a 50/50 chance of lynching a wolf, which will greatly increase our chances of winning.

To me and my understanding of English-language that seems like far from clear she had a wolf. Actually it looks like the contrary - but she was clearly wishing to play games with the wolves (like saying she had two wolves the Day before etc.). So at least I took that as something I couldn't and shouldn't rely on.

But actually that is no big deal - unless some wolves are trying to use wrong information (that we knew she had a wolf) as "evidence" to their fabricated cases against innocents.

If you Inzil, or anyone, go back the thread you see an interesting thing I only realised when Sally revealed Izzy was a wolf. She had suspected me the whole Day quite heavily, but after I had voiced my suspicions on Izzy here and entertained the idea whether I should actually vote her, Sally's tone actually changed. After wilwa rushed on to call me a likely wolf she actually said that:

Originally Posted by Sally

I'm not sure on him yet so I'd rather not vote him toDay. He's said some things these last few posts that make me think he really is innocent.

Now why should that be? Well, in hindsight it looks quite clear: she saw I hit the right target and was thinking of voting her - and I had come to that conclusion without her helping me out with it, so I was an innocent - as I am.

Think carefully: if I was a wolf, I would need to have psychic powers to foresee it would be Izzy whom Sally had dreamt of and then make a case against her before Sally revealed her knowledge, just to look good. So sorry, you're grasping at straws here. Or should I say you're trying to get an innocent lynched on purpose?

Also you say I had made some "weak suspicions" on Izzy as a kind of downplaying of what I said there! Now that's wolf-talk as the wolves are the only ones to know for certain. I was actually a bit proud of myself to have noticed the sneakiness of her post (referred to up here) and to really take it seriously enough to consider voting her, or wilwa who seemed to be too busy trying to convince everyone why I should be lynched.

I had already come to the conclusion earlier that either Izzy or wilwa should be a wolf - or they both are / were (look here for details). But that early thought was based only on speculation on the PM-pairs (no wolf-wolf pair around that is), and as I had seen that many of you were wrong about the pairs (thinking there were no ordo-ordo pairs which I know is false), I had thought I could be wrong too about the pairs. But with Izzy's post and wilwa's willingness they both looked suspicious to me - and kind of confirmed my initial suspicions based on the PM-pairs.

You Inzil also say I was unwilling to "take the hint" from Sally to vote for Izzy! Now let's see what happened.

First of all I (or you) didn't know Sally had a wolf bagged. But she had kept me and Izzy as her two main candidates the first part of the Day - leaning on voting me rather than Izzy. As an innocent that was a sign for me that her open suspicions were as ungrounded as anyone's, so there was no particular reason for me to think she had dreamt of Izzy as she was so wrong with me.

When I had thought of voting Izzy, she said:

Originally Posted by Sally

Nog, Izzy isn't the ranger, so if you need to go to bed she's a safe vote.

That actually just says what it says. If she had no wolf and Izzy was not the ranger or the ordo she had dreamt of, she would say something like that - if she was willing to see how the wolves reacted to the insecurity of her dream (which I think she had in mind). And that's how I took it.

The second "hint" she gave was this (after I had mulled over whether to vote for Izzy or wilwa):

Originally Posted by Sally

If my opinion matters, I'd prefer Izzy. I think Wilwa's probably innocent.

My reaction to that was:

Originally Posted by me

I actually disagree here even if I'm suspecting Izzy as well. Wilwa looks so opportunistic to press for an interpretation I know is not true that it makes me suspect her more (for is she were a wolf that would suit her just perfectly!) - not to talk of her voting I referred to earlier.

Or are you implying Izzy is in fact a wolf?

Then I waited for her to comment on my question, taking that out from my sleep which anyway was getting short... 'nuff said I think.

So Inzil, to borrow your exact words, "it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Inzil missing the" points. So do I have to conclude you're one of our last wolves trying to push an already suspected innocent towards the gallows to ensure the wolf-victory? Were you perhaps a bit too overconfident?


Well, I need to think about the last two wolves, but if I'd need to vote right now, I'd say Inzil and wilwa... but I really need to look at the pairs again - as well as the discussion yesterDay after I left. So that may change.

[alonariel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Sally said in her first post as an answer to alona's question "any luck dreaming of a wolf?" the following (boldings mine): To me and my understanding of English-language that seems like far from clear she had a wolf. Actually it looks like the contrary - but she was clearly wishing to play games with the wolves (like saying she had two wolves the Day before etc.). So at least I took that as something I couldn't and shouldn't rely on.

Okay, so this might get me in trouble, but I'm going to say it anyway for clarity's sake especially now that Sally's been killed. Since she and I were on for most of yesterDay, we ended up talking about the game while simultaneously posting on the thread. The main point of our conversation was covered and posted on the thread when Sally basically asked if it was all right if I sacrificed myself as a lynch so the Ranger wouldn't get lynched. Now, at the time, I was okay with her setting me up as the Ranger as a hopeful hint to the wolves to go after me instead of trying to lynch or Night kill the real Ranger.

Because I'd been privy to this information, my posts yesterDay were written based on the knowledge that Sally had in fact dreamed a wolf. I think everyone assumed Sally had dreamed a wolf at that point - and she certainly gave that impression the way she was posting and how she was talking.

Nog, breaking a post down word by word might be helpful to catch a slip by a wolf, but in Sally's case, I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of what she said could have misdirects, and I think that's what the whole "might" business was.

And to use some logic you used in making a case against me earlier, it feels like your post could go one of two ways: an innocent vehemently defending himself in order to preserve the village numbers or a wolf throwing a fellow pack mate under the bus. I'm leaning towards the first, but am not disregarding the second just yet.

Your reasoning does seem sound, but knowing what I know after talking and posting with Sally after all of most yesterDay, there's just something that doesn't sit completely right with me.

I've got to leave for work now, but I'll be back roughly an hour and a half before DL or so, depending on traffic on the way home.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all, how did this thought of us knowing Sally had dreamt a wolf come from? At least to me it was not obvious and I didn't find it even now looking back the thread.

Well, Wilwa made this comment:

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Uhm. Sally I really hope you have a wolf. Cause if you do the math, we lose if we don't lynch a wolf toDay.

And this was Sally's response.

Originally Posted by satansaloser2005

I do. Honestly, I do, so don't worry. If I didn't I would have told you by now. And I have more or less absolute faith in our sweet ranger because they love me and are clever.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

If you Inzil, or anyone, go back the thread you see an interesting thing I only realised when Sally revealed Izzy was a wolf. She had suspected me the whole Day quite heavily, but after I had voiced my suspicions on Izzy here and entertained the idea whether I should actually vote her, Sally's tone actually changed. After wilwa rushed on to call me a likely wolf she actually said that: Now why should that be? Well, in hindsight it looks quite clear: she saw I hit the right target and was thinking of voting her - and I had come to that conclusion without her helping me out with it, so I was an innocent - as I am.

If Sally was confident you were going to vote for Izzy, why was she compelled to make a full reveal of her dream? It certainly appeared to be for your benefit.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

First of all I (or you) didn't know Sally had a wolf bagged. But she had kept me and Izzy as her two main candidates the first part of the Day - leaning on voting me rather than Izzy. As an innocent that was a sign for me that her open suspicions were as ungrounded as anyone's, so there was no particular reason for me to think she had dreamt of Izzy as she was so wrong with me.

See above.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So Inzil, to borrow your exact words, "it's hard for me to see someone as perceptive as Inzil missing the" points. So do I have to conclude you're one of our last wolves trying to push an already suspected innocent towards the gallows to ensure the wolf-victory? Were you perhaps a bit too overconfident?

'Already suspected'? I thought you looked off yesterDay. I'm not convinced, Nog. I still don't think Wilwa looks as bad as you,

[Nogrod]

I only really realised this now looking back at the posts for toDay! RED ALERT!

Originally Posted by wilwa

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

And the suspects are not a surprise to me...


There are six of us left of which two are wolves, 4 against 2.

If we lynch wrong toDay there will be 3 against 2 facing the Night. Then if the wolves succeed in their Night kill it will be 2 against 2 come morning and we've lost. Game over.

So have we any hope if we don't lynch right toDay? The ranger could do the trick. But if she (yeah, prolly) reveals toDay she will be killed and it is game over.

So stay hidden ranger! You're our last stand if we miss it toDay.

Wilwa and Inzil... I'm really looking at you now.

[wilwarin538]

Nog, I said "So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight."I didn't say "Hey, I think the Ranger should totally reveal right now."

I was simply putting the idea out there because yesterDay I had brought it up,(though I was basing that on the idea that we'd perhaps have another of Sally's dreams toDay, and someone else would have died last Night, so our pool of unknowns would have been smaller and we may have gained more from the Ranger revealing, we're in a different situation then I was hoping for) I wasn't saying we should definitely go for it, it was more for everyone's consideration incase there was some benefit to the reveal that I hadn't thought of. I see now there isn't, so it's a bad idea, so she should obviously stay quite.


On another not, ya know what I don't get? Why I always seem to be suspected for being too "willing", or too "helpful".

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by alonariel

Since she and I were on for most of yesterDay, we ended up talking about the game while simultaneously posting on the thread.

Well... what to say?

One is not supposed to chat about the game with other players while the game is going on. Really. The game is played in the game thread, not in msn, Twitter, FB, e-mail or so. Every thought you have you either keep with yourself or share it with others publicly. That's the name of the game.

There have been a few major rows on the issue in the past - resulting in some people signing off from WW for good. So please alona, play with the rules (there was this thing with Lari as well). Hold your horses my friend!

Originally Posted by alona

Nog, breaking a post down word by word might be helpful to catch a slip by a wolf, but in Sally's case, I think it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. Some of what she said could have misdirects, and I think that's what the whole "might" business was.

Wasn't that exactly what I said - that I thought she was "playing games" with the wolves and thus decided not to take this or that she said at the face-value?



Inzil. Are you becoming this desperate?

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, Wilwa made this comment:

And this was Sally's response.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Right. But those posts you quote are actually cross-posts with my post where I ask if Sally is hinting that Izzy is indeed a wolf and she knows it! So that discussion took place right at the time I was about to vote - so you can't quite say I "should have known it" before that exchange of thoughts occured, ten minutes before my vote!

So what are you aiming at Inzil? Why do you try twist everything to get me lynched? I know the wolves would love to lynch an innocent toDay though and looking at how the Day began I was clearly their best bet to victory... but sorry, I'll challenge you on that.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Nog, I said "So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight."I didn't say "Hey, I think the Ranger should totally reveal right now."

True.

Even if I think it was a bad topic-opening in principle - unless we think of it as a trap that Inzil was more or less caught in with. Yes he went to and fro, but he was not willing to state the obvious eg. he was willing to see if the ranger would be fool enough to reveal herself?

For that I could thank you and bow for the great trap you made... but as you understand I can't be sure about you - like I can't be sure about anyone. Maybe it was you two who tried to make it feel like the ranger should come forwards?

I don't know. But now I think we should probably lynch Inzil to buy us another Day to play.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I don't know. But now I think we should probably lynch Inzil to buy us another Day to play.

Ya know what, I'd be willing to do that. It was between you and him anyway.

There is this part of me that thinks you're guilty (mainly due to my lover pairing theory), and then this other part of me that so badly wants to believe you, cause I know that if I was in an ord-ord pairing, and no one thought that an ord-ord pairing excisted, I would be freaking out a bit. So, I'm empathizing with you here....

But then the part of me that thinks your guilty also thinks you're trying to set Inzil up. I don't know anymore....

I do know that a few days ago I was suspicious of Inzil, and not of Nog. So I might decide to go off my original gut....I might not....I don't know....

Then there is the part of me who feels bad for suspecting my Lover from the first attempt, who was so sweet and nice....but totally a wolf

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Are you becoming this desperate?
Right. But those posts you quote are actually cross-posts with my post where I ask if Sally is hinting that Izzy is indeed a wolf and she knows it! So that discussion took place right at the time I was about to vote - so you can't quite say I "should have known it" before that exchange of thoughts occured, ten minutes before my vote!

So what are you aiming at Inzil? Why do you try twist everything to get me lynched? I know the wolves would love to lynch an innocent toDay though and looking at how the Day began I was clearly their best bet to victory... but sorry, I'll challenge you on that.

I'm not 'twisting' your words. That post of Wilwa's came at 5:16 PM, my time, with Sally's response at 5:18. Between then and when Sally revealed her dream at 5:28 (at which time you then voted) you had two additional posts, with no note of x/ posting with Sally.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Well, I'm afraid you talk of another thing I do. But well, whatever. I'm just afraid.

I actually disagree here even if I'm suspecting Izzy as well. Wilwa looks so opportunistic to press for an interpretation I know is not true that it makes me suspect her more (for is she were a wolf that would suit her just perfectly!) - not to talk of her voting I referred to earlier.

Or are you implying Izzy is in fact a wolf?

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. Bedtime for me then.

If you Sally don't think it wise to reveal your dream then let's just cross our fingers there are enough ordos to vote for the wolf... YesterDay three people didn't vote and with these numbers the wolves could easily outvote us if not everybody voted.

Sorry Sally, but not a Day for nice traps. I can't stay awake for long now - and if I vote the wrong way we might lose the Day and the game as then it takes only one ordo not to vote and we can be busted.

It just looks to me as if you ignored plain words that Sally knew a wolf, were reluctant to vote Izzy at her suggestion, and instead waited for her to make an outright reveal.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Even if I think it was a bad topic-opening in principle - unless we think of it as a trap that Inzil was more or less caught in with. Yes he went to and fro, but he was not willing to state the obvious eg. he was willing to see if the ranger would be fool enough to reveal herself?

Now who's reaching? Caught in a trap? I admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

NowI admitted it could give us a known innocent to work with, but also said the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way.

You didn't care to mention that if the wolves know the identity of the ranger it is game over in the morning if we don't lynch a wolf toDay...

And you didn't actually say "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way" but you said:

Originally Posted by Inzil

Well, it would help narrow the field (assuming a wolf didn't make a false reveal), but the Ranger is the best weapon we have at this point. So I'm not sure.

And you're really reaching /streching out with your other comments. I'll comment on them in a moment... just a cigarette first (bad for your health, never start smoking).

[wilwarin538]

So confused...

Can I vote for both of you? That would make my life way easier....like vote for Nogadun or Inzilrod....

I'm starting to think you could both be wolves, and are going at each other so that when one gets lynched the other looks better.

I'd like to know what Shasta thinks too. And maybe more from Lari and Alona, so my femininity doesn't get overpowered by all this testosterone....

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

You didn't care to mention that if the wolves know the identity of the ranger it is game over in the morning if we don't lynch a wolf toDay...

Smoking really is a bad habit. Never picked it up myself.
I didn't note that about the importance of lynching a wolf toDay because Wilwa had already said it, in the same post in which she proposed having the Ranger come forward. Doubtless if I had mentioned it, you'd accuse me of parroting the obvious.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you didn't actually say "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way

Fine, I paraphrased. 'Best weapon', 'too valuable'.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And you're really reaching /streching out with your other comments. I'll comment on them in a moment... just a cigarette first (bad for your health, never start smoking).

Said the pot to the kettle.

x/d with Wilwa

[Nogrod]

So you're using minutes as arguments and calling for a close read then Inzil? Let's open all of it then.

Originally Posted by Inzil

I'm not 'twisting' your words. That post of Wilwa's came at 5:16 PM, my time, with Sally's response at 5:18. Between then and when Sally revealed her dream at 5:28 (at which time you then voted) you had two additional posts, with no note of x/ posting with Sally.

So on 01.08 I ended my post with:

Originally Posted by me

So it will be wilwa or Izzy for me. Probably wilwa.

I'll think about it for a moment.

And went to have a cigarette and think about the choices.

When I came back I refreshed the page and there was Sally's post on 01.12 that spoke of what she was doing (to which I made a comment) and which also said:

Originally Posted by Sally

If my opinion matters, I'd prefer Izzy. I think Wilwa's probably innocent.

I ended my post with asking her whether she meant Izzy was a wolf as she said she'd prefer Izzy over wilwa (although I strongly disagreed with her about wilwa whom she thought "probably innocent"). That post of mine was sent at 01.21.

Now wilwa's post asking Sally about her having a wolf was posted at 01.16 and Sally answered 01.18 (three minutes before my post was posted). That post of mine 01.21 was a cross post - with both of them.

Then I went back reading what was said and thought about the implications - and I do actually remember reading wilwa's post from 01.22. (so I had first read the few posts that were posted prior to my 01.21 and thought about them, and only then posted my next one which was finally posted at 01.28)

Originally Posted by wilwa

But should you reveal them now then....cause I'm sure Noggy would rather vote for a wolf, and the more people to vote for them the better, just in case, we don't want people coming on and voting before you reveal it, just incase the votes end up getting swayed by the baddies or something....up to you,

Which I thought was straight to the point. And it was only now I kind of knew Sally had a wolf! So after thinking a while I realised the situation was urgent indeed. And I said this on post that was sent on 01.28

Originally Posted by me

If you Sally don't think it wise to reveal your dream then let's just cross our fingers there are enough ordos to vote for the wolf... YesterDay three people didn't vote and with these numbers the wolves could easily outvote us if not everybody voted.

Sorry Sally, but not a Day for nice traps. I can't stay awake for long now - and if I vote the wrong way we might lose the Day and the game as then it takes only one ordo not to vote and we can be busted.

So I was concerned that I might vote the wrong way and decided to wait yet a moment even if it was about 1.30AM and I had an early morning call to see whether Sally would help and stop playing her otherwise nice game with the wolves as the situation was dire enough without the "game" she wished to play. I was thinking about the general situation... the previous Day three people didn't vote, and looking at our numbers there such many non-voters against three wolves would mean that we could be outvoted if just a few of us voted the wrong way (if Sally would reveal only near the DL!). Just look back at how Lottie got lynched! Not with a bang but a whimper.

Therefore I urged her to reveal earlier than later.

And you Inzil should have seen the direness of our situation there.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Fine, I paraphrased. 'Best weapon', 'too valuable'.

No. Sorry. You said first that there are pros and cons but you're "not sure", then you tried to save it by telling that you said "the Ranger was too valuable to risk that way".

So first you said "not sure" and then claimed you said you were against it (after I had pointed out it would lead to game over) which you weren't.

Originally Posted by Zil

Smoking really is a bad habit. Never picked it up myself.

Good for you. Never start!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

I'm starting to think you could both be wolves, and are going at each other so that when one gets lynched the other looks better.

Hold your imagination and look at the arguments.


But it is true what you say, that one would like to see more contributions from Shasta and Lari.

Shasta has the show to rehearse (or something like that) and that's a decent reason for not posting too much - but at this kind of game it could be quite crucial as well. And if he is a wolf... well I'm afraid we can't afford to just check it right now as a mislynch toDay will more or less end the game (unless the wolves don't hit the ranger and s/he manages to save someone).

If he is a wolf and wins I'd say the moral victory is not theirs. And it is not something to blame on Shasta if he is busy, but a question of the overall rl conditions (although one might ask why join a game if one has no time to play?). So I will be disregarding Shasta for toDay at least. Whatever follows.

Lari is a harder case. I don't remember her saying she wouldn't be able to contribute and she has been the most quiet all the time (second least posts thus far after Glirdan who died on D1!). But unlike Shasta, when she posts she has at least tried to say something - but soo carefully it hurts!

I'd think the same would apply to her: I will think her win as a wolf would be morally worthless and thus void in my eyes at least. In this small a game we just can't afford doing away with the submarines first as the numbers are falling so fast.

Please Shasta and Lari, post, play the game if you're in it!

[Shastanis Althreduin]

You're right, Nog, I shouldn't have signed up for this game. But asking for a modkill at this point in the game would doom the innocents, so I'll do my best (I do, however, have rehearsal in an hour and I'm not sure how long it's going to last).

For now, two major points.

1. People who are pushing the whole "The Ranger has GOT to be female" are looking extremely shady to me.

2. I think that Wilwa's backpedaling on the revealing of the Ranger-issue looks fishy, but then I think Inzil is fishy too.

[wilwarin538]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

1. People who are pushing the whole "The Ranger has GOT to be female" are looking extremely shady to me.

Why? Sally referred to the Ranger as a she, I see it as likely that she did that so that we'd have an idea of who the Ranger could be, since there was about the same number of guys and girls, without her having to reveal them (since that would put the Ranger in danger). She could have done it so that if a few days went by and she was dead we would have a hint about the Ranger and be able to limit our group of unknowns (or like if a guy-wolf tried to false reveal or something we'd know not to believe them). It just seems quite clearly like something Sally would do. You seem to be the only one who doesn't think so.

I don't know, we could all be wrong of course and she was just messing with us.
But either way I don't find the girls suspicious anyway, even if Sally had never done the whole "she" thing I still would not have looked at them suspiciously.

Backpedaling? I never said I thought the Ranger should reveal, I asked what people thought about the Ranger revealing. Those are two different things.

Anyway, I'm going to go eat some pumpkin pie and watch Jack Bauer. Be back later.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now wilwa's post asking Sally about her having a wolf was posted at 01.16 and Sally answered 01.18 (three minutes before my post was posted). That post of mine 01.21 was a cross post - with both of them.

All right, Nog. But the problem was it wasn't apparent you'd cross-posted. Surely you see that. It looked as if you'd just been ignoring things, since you didn't note a cross-post at the time.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Then I went back reading what was said and thought about the implications - and I do actually remember reading wilwa's post from 01.22. (so I had first read the few posts that were posted prior to my 01.21 and thought about them, and only then posted my next one which was finally posted at 01.28)Which I thought was straight to the point. And it was only now I kind of knew Sally had a wolf! So after thinking a while I realised the situation was urgent indeed. And I said this on post that was sent on 01.28 So I was concerned that I might vote the wrong way and decided to wait yet a moment even if it was about 1.30AM and I had an early morning call to see whether Sally would help and stop playing her otherwise nice game with the wolves as the situation was dire enough without the "game" she wished to play. I was thinking about the general situation... the previous Day three people didn't vote, and looking at our numbers there such many non-voters against three wolves would mean that we could be outvoted if just a few of us voted the wrong way (if Sally would reveal only near the DL!). Just look back at how Lottie got lynched! Not with a bang but a whimper.

Therefore I urged her to reveal earlier than later.

And you Inzil should have seen the direness of our situation there.

I'll admit Sally's caginess was causing me some consternation as well, but I'd be willing to let her have things her way, since she had made it clear (to me, at least) that she had a wolf.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

So first you said "not sure" and then claimed you said you were against it (after I had pointed out it would lead to game over) which you weren't.

Sorry, you're grasping at straws here. And I was well aware when I responded to Wilwa that a false lynch would be fatal. As I said, I didn't point it out because Wilwa had just done so.

You do make an impassioned defence, Nog.

[Nogrod]

Sally talked of the ranger as a she. Whatever the status of that claim might be, we should take that into consideration. And Sally didn't give us a name (was wise enough not to).

Now, if the ranger is lynched we lose. It is game over.

If the ranger is killed during the Night we lose before the next Day breaks as well - unless we get a wolf toDay. And if we lynch a female toDay who is not a wolf they have easier task to guess on the ranger the coming Night (as there are less females to choose from). So let us leave them as many females as possible to pick from the coming Night so that there are better chances of them getting it wrong.

So let's lynch a male toDay.

It means either

me
Shasta
Inzil

I know I'm an innocent myself.

I have already said I'm afraid we just can't afford a shot in the dark with trying Shasta. Although now seeing Shasta posting and actually contesting the whole "female-ranger" idea makes me think again... bah, I thought I could get to bed now.

Heh, as soon I started to feel better about wilwa - because of realising her concern about Sally revealing early enough so that the wolves couldn't mess the votes yesterDay - Shasta says wilwa was backpedalling on the ranger-reveal -issue, which is not true - while it could be argued Inzil did that, and Shasta's "weak suspicion" "but then I think Inzil is fishy too" looks very much like a wolf-on-wolf suspicion.

I do think Inzil has been trying to capitulate on the general suspicions on me toDay - the wolves know the situation and just one innocent lynch will give them great chances of winning the game on the coming Night. Also the way he has done that has been outright twisting the facts (check my posts with real evidence) and I do suspect he tried to out our ranger for the death of us innocents, and when caught, tried to lie to get away with it (check my posts for original quotes showing the difference between what he said and what he claimed he said).

Okay. Needs a moment of thought before voting...


EDIT: mentioning this now... X'd with Inzil.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Right. How do we know Sally didn't say "she" to bluff (or double bluff, or triple bluff) the wolves? Knowing Sally, I don't think we can make any assumptions just because she said "she" instead of "they" or "he". And the fact that this has been the main subject of the day blows my mind. We're not looking for the Ranger, we're looking for the wolves.

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Sally talked of the ranger as a she. Whatever the status of that claim might be, we should take that into consideration. And Sally didn't give us a name (was wise enough not to).

Now, if the ranger is lynched we lose. It is game over.

If any innocent is lynched, it's likely 'game over'.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I know I'm an innocent myself.

The same is true of me. Therein lies our problem, Nog.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I do think Inzil has been trying to capitulate on the general suspicions on me toDay - the wolves know the situation and just one innocent lynch will give them great chances of winning the game on the coming Night. Also the way he has done that has been outright twisting the facts (check my posts with real evidence) and I do suspect he tried to out our ranger for the death of us innocents, and when caught, tried to lie to get away with it (check my posts for original quotes showing the difference between what he said and what he claimed he said).

I'll accept your explantion about your questioning Sally and inducing her to name her dream. But now you're twisting my words about Wilwa's Ranger idea. Let it be so, then.

x/d with Shasta

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I'll admit Sally's caginess was causing me some consternation as well, but I'd be willing to let her have things her way, since she had made it clear (to me, at least) that she had a wolf.

Well I think you miss the point here. Lari had voted for Shasta already and so basically another vote not for the wolf Sally had caught could have led to a situation where the wolves could have run over us with their votes and win. And I needed to get to sleep. It was too risky.

Originally Posted by Inzil

Sorry, you're grasping at straws here. And I was well aware when I responded to Wilwa that a false lynch would be fatal. As I said, I didn't point it out because Wilwa had just done so.

Actually what wilwa said was:

Originally Posted by wilwa

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

She didn't say the game would be over if the ranger dies! And how come you claim you were on top of the things as an innocent if you answered that post by wilwa by saying that there are pros and cons and that you're not sure which would be the best option - if you claim you knew the game would end if we missed?

Originally Posted by Inzil

You do make an impassioned defence, Nog.

If the dl would be better I'd be easier as I could follow the day through but sadly I need to leave like now and everything that happens after I'm gone is out of my reach; so I feel I need to make my case strongly enough so that we stand a chance of there being toMorrow.

x'd with Shasta and Inzil

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Actually what wilwa said was: She didn't say the game would be over if the ranger dies! And how come you claim you were on top of the things as an innocent if you answered that post by wilwa by saying that there are pros and cons and that you're not sure which would be the best option - if you claim you knew the game would end if we missed?

For your benefit, here is Wilwa's post, bolding added to the pertinent part.

Originally Posted by wilwarin538

Who's left:

Nogrod
Inziladun
Shasta
Alonariel
Wilwarin
Lariren

2 are wolves, 1 is the Ranger, then 3 ords. If we don't get a wolf today, then we most likely lose.

So what do people think of the Ranger coming forward? It would make our pool of suspects smaller, but would probably guarantee her death toNight.

And did it occur to you, Nog, that perhaps I wanted to leave it open ended, to see if anyone would latch on and say, 'Yes, Ranger! Come forward!'?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

Right. How do we know Sally didn't say "she" to bluff (or double bluff, or triple bluff) the wolves?

We don't Shasta. We don't know that.

But it is a thing to be considered as it is the only one thing we have about the ranger.

And as someone (wilwa?) said, it is actually believable that she would give us a hint that way limiting the gender of the ranger thus still protecting her as there were many enough females around...

And why are you suddenly thus concerned Shasta?

If we lynch a wolf toDay we (some of us) live toMorrow, but if we don't, it will be in the hands of our ranger, and only her (him?). So let's make it as safe as possible and try to avoid lynching the ranger - and not force her to come forwards to not lynch her as the revealment of the ranger's identity would be the death of her and thus the end of the game.

And if our only clue is that the ranger is a "she" I think it reasonable to follow that principle toDay.

ToMorrow the situation might be different as there is no reason both the remaining wolves should be males in principle.

edit: x'äd with Inzil again...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

And did it occur to you, Nog, that perhaps I wanted to leave it open ended, to see if anyone would latch on and say, 'Yes, Ranger! Come forward!'?

It took you some time to come up with that explanation Inzil... and don't try to tell me you were just having your nets in the deep water all the time just to watch for reactions the last hours.

And really. If wilwa says "we most likely lose" then you say "I'm not sure about it" - and it takes you this long to actually come up with an explanation... and then you want me to buy it?

Well Shasta is looking quite bad as well. So... drat... looking at the clock...

Why does this game always start to get interesting when I need to go to sleep? The worst deadline ever!