Survivor: The Second Age

[the phantom]

So, at least at some point Vilya was used.

Umm... duh. Of course Vilya was used in some way at some point. All the rings were used in some way at some point. I'm not really sure why you think that somehow justifies voting Elrond out.

Anyone can put up a tent in some valley and call it a refuge.

Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor. Here's some quotes from LOTR-

'Is Rivendell safe?'
'Yes, at present, until all else is conquered.

Indeed there is power in Rivendell to withstand the might of Mordor, for a while

The House of Elrond is more than a mere refuge, and Elrond is more than a mere elf. He can control a friggin' river, for goodness sake!

Can Ohtar claim that? How about Oropher?

Then why aren't you voting for them?

I think you should be willing to vote for Elrond just out of respect for the facts I have brought up.

I can't see that you've brought any new information to the table. You haven't disproved a word of what I've said. All that you managed to do was to say that Elrond, at some point, used Vilya, which hardly qualifies as valuable information.

Way to go, Spawn. You've proven that you are not only unintelligent, but stubborn as well. There's nothing I love more than someone who doesn't know what they are talking about and then refuses to change their opinion despite good information.

PS You can reverse my opinion of you rather quickly simply by changing your vote to a better candidate.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Umm... duh. Of course Vilya was used in some way at some point.

I'm glad we agree.

Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor.

One word: Vilya.

The quotes of Rivendell that you provided are from the Third Age. I doubt the refuge that Elrond founded in the Second Age was as glorious as it was later after he had had time to make it stronger with the aid of Vilya.

Also, I'm not voting for people based on if they can control a river or not.

I can't see that you've brought any new information to the table. You haven't disproved a word of what I've said.

Neither have you, m'dear. One thing you got right, though. I am stubborn.

PS You can reverse my opinion of you rather quickly simply by changing your vote to a better candidate.

So, you respect people who blindly follow your opinion whatever it is and don't use their own brain? Sorry, not interested.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Yes! Erendis is out! Joy encapsulates!

Diamond, Estel, whoever wants my help: NO DEAL. I said before that the squabbling factions are highly unattractive, and not more so than badgering singletons. So have at it!

Eliminate my favourite character Treebeard if you want. I'm sure he'd rather be back in the forest away from the reality-show fashionistas anyway.

I am outta here.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

I forgot one thing...

Originally Posted by the phantom

All the rings were used in some way at some point. I'm not really sure why you think that somehow justifies voting Elrond out.

I never said that I vote for Elrond because he had a ring. You might want to reread my case before this debate totally loses its track.

[Kuruharan]

...somebody comes along and busts it up?

Oh well, when one thing doesn't work, move on to something else...

++ Cirdan

An Elf being in Middle-earth for three ages is just downright unnatural.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

A planet where elves evolve beards from copying men!

+ + Cirdan

[Diamond18]

The early race is between Elrond and Cirdan (2 votes each), with Sauron tagging along in the back with 1 vote. While it might thrill certain tie-hungry sorts around here **coughKurucough** to see Sauron get another vote, I am not sure it would do well to deplete the Baddies so completely at this point.

So, that leaves Elrond and Cirdan (I am not in a mood to try starting a new movement, myself). This is a tough choice, as both characters seem fairly equal to me. I have no great dislike for either, but do recognize their imperfections. I can't say either of them deserve to be the coolest of the cool and win the whole thing, so this leads to somewhat of a toss up. I could stick with my earlier defense of Elrond, but that was in relation to Erendis, not Cirdan, so today is a new day and I want to treat it as such.

Looking over the early arguments, I have to say one thing stands out. There is something rather nasty going on between certain members -- I would name names but it hardly seems necessary. Any compliments I received yesterday are always appreciated, but it distresses me to see the downright un-sportsmanlike verbal attacks that are going on today.

So, I am going to tip my rather ambivalent scale and with a farewell pat on the back for Halfelven, vote:

+ + Elrond

[Eonwe]

++Oropher

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

The thing is, nobody can come up with a satasfactory reason to boot Cirdan or Elrond, or Sauron, for that matter. Catagorically.

[The Only Real Estel]

++ Elrond

Is where I'm leaning at the moment...there are good points for & against him of course & I might change my mind but at the moment I'm leaning towards Spawn's course of action (& others ).

[Celuien]

Oropher

Originally Posted by Eonwe

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

Can't think of a thing. How dull.

+ +OROPHER

For contributing little, if anything, to the history of Middle-earth.

[Elu Ancalime]

++Elrond

I swear he's a sissy. But mainly to protect Oropher and Cirdan.

Firstly, who is the guy? What are his qualifications? Any cool thing he's done?

Oropher brought Rennisance to the Silvan elves of Mirkwood. Bringing to ignorant into the light. What a great guy. And he died a warrior's death at the Last Alliance.

Cirdan? I wont say the most successful of the Sindar lords, but the least disatorus. He never made his people stand to fight when the best hope was a Phyrric victory. He even sacrificeed his Legolas-comparable good looks so that others could keep theirs!

Why are we voting for compassionate, warm elves?
________
Buy extreme q vaporizer

[Kuruharan]

...I'll have to make a slight change.

-- Cirdan

++ Elrond

I mean honestly, he went with the Last Alliance as the "herald" of Gil-Galad! Talk about your cushy jobs. Heralds are used to communicate with the enemy. What in the world could the Elves/Men/Dwarves have had to discuss with Sauron? The guy went along and didn't do a thing.

[Gil-Galad]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion...


++Anarion

[Kuruharan]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion

True. The Elendili do need pruning. However, a vote by you for Elrond today might help the Anarion cause tomorrow...

[Elu Ancalime]

sooner or later your all going to have to vote for Anarion...

So vote for him later. Any of the Elendili should be candidates for the winner, minas Ohtar, who has been dealt with.

Anarion- Joint King of Gondor, whose line was filled with notables such as Hyarmendacil victor of Umbar, and Gondor outlasted its sister kingdom which was far away from Sauron. Anarion had his own city and he died a war hero, whose death might have caused Gandalf and Theoden to remeber it in front of Orthanc, saving their lives.

Elendil-Obviously. Elf-Friend, High King of the Dunedain, the Noah of the Numenoreans, whose realm was nothing but 'Kingly-Land.' Elendil should be winner!

Just some thoughts for tomorrow if you want to kill off a father and his son.
________
Honda cm400

[Gil-Galad]

--Anarion

++Elrond


i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

[Elu Ancalime]

i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

Why dost though persecute a noble so?

Kuru, if you want to do some real damage, why not landslide Celembrimbor....
________
Range rover

[Kuruharan]

i expect your vote for Anarion in the future Kuru

If I were a loyer, I'd wiggle out of that by saying you didn't specify time and place. However, I'm a dwarf of my word, as spawn can attest to, so I'll vote for him for a day or two and see what happens.

Kuru, if you want to do some real damage, why not landslide Celembrimbor

I had pretty much promised by implication already. Besides, landslides are difficult to arrange and rarely go entirely as planned.

I'm sure Celebrimbor will be on everybody's agenda at some point.

[Elu Ancalime]

If I were a loyer, I'd wiggle out of that by saying you didn't specify time and place.

at some point.

XP
________
Dodge wiki specifications

[littlemanpoet]

++ Narvi

For creating a puzzle that almost cost the Fellowship of the Ring entrance into the Mines of Moria, which almost cost the loss of Gandalf the Grey which almost cost the Free Peoples Gandalf the White which almost led to Saruman making mincemeat out of Rohan which means Minas Tirith would have fallen and Aragorn never would have gotten the palantir to distract Sauron away from Frodo and Sam. So it's all Narvi's fault that it almost happened.

Besides, he's just a Dwarf. Who gives a rip about Dwarves? In the second age?

[JennyHallu]

Not poor li'l old Narvi's fault Gandalf was not at his best...it was SAURON'S!

But I always have sympathy for the guys you know are going to lose, so...

++Amandil, for being dense.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by me

Yes, anyone can make a refuge, but not everyone can put up a refuge that can stand up for a considerable time against Mordor.

Originally Posted by Spawn

One word: Vilya.

So, in other words you are saying that Elrond only has great power because of Vilya?

While it's true that the elven rings augment power, they cannot turn a slightly better than average elf into an amazingly powerful elf. It takes someone who is great already to make good use of an elven ring.

It's sort of like with the One Ring. The more powerful the bearer, the more that can be done with the Ring. Frodo had no chance of rising up and overthrowing Sauron with the One Ring- it was beyond his power. But greater individuals might've been able to use the Ring to militarily conquer Sauron's armies.

As a matter of fact, Tolkien specifically says in letter 246 that Elrond would've been especially capable of overthrowing Sauron with the One Ring- more capable than Galadriel, Cirdan, and Gil-galad. It is obvious from that that Elrond had a great amount of personal power aside from any ring.

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Why are we voting for compassionate, warm elves?

If you don't want compassionate, warm elves to be voted for, you certainly need to change your vote away from Elrond. Read the story of Aragorn and Arwen in the back of LOTR and you will see how kind Elrond is. I mean, compare his reaction to the reaction of Thingol to Beren.

Tolkien even calls Elrond "kind as summer" in The Hobbit.

So, Elu Ancalime, if you keep your vote for Elrond you are an absolutely huge hypocrite.

If any of you honestly think that Elrond should be out before Oropher, your brain is wired incorrectly. There's a reason a lot of people don't know the name Oropher where as everyone knows Elrond. Oropher isn't worthy of recognition, and thus is unworthy of staying in this game.

+ + Oropher

[lord of dor-lomin]

I received a message from the phantom ordering me to vote for Oropher, and after viewing the circumstances, I believe I shall.

+ + Oropher

I haven't seen any decent defensible textual reason why Elrond should leave right now, particularly before Oropher, who most of you probably had to look up to find out about.

I agree with those before me that there is a reason Oropher is not well known- he didn't do anything worthy of keeping him alive in this game.

PS phantom I'm going to try and get my cousin on here to help you, if she even remembers how to log in that is

[Firefoot]

++Oropher

He's pretty much useless, and Elrond deserves to stick around to the end more than he does. I don't know that Elrond should win, but Oropher definitely should not.

[Formendacil]

The Eleventh day of voting was quieter than its predecessor, possibly due to its falling on the weekend. A clear trend towards anti-Elrond voting seemed to be growing... In the end, the voting fell as follows:

Sauron: I
Narvi: I
Amandil: I
Círdan: I

Oropher: IIIII

Elrond: IIIII I

However, due to a certain Moderator's stated threat of recounting votes so that only those with Tolkien-based reasoning (as judged by his own criteria) were counted, the voting REALLY fell as follows:

Sauron: I
Círdan: I
Narvi: I

Elrond: II

Oropher: III

Oropher is gone. Those wishing for an Elrondian eviction must wait till the morrow.

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 12 may now begin. Vote away- but remember that only those votes with Tolkien-related rationale are guaranteed to be counted! The Elendili now hold a clear lead.

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

However, due to a certain Moderator's stated threat of recounting votes so that only those with Tolkien-based reasoning (as judged by his own criteria) were counted, the voting REALLY fell as follows:

I rather hate to say it, but it appears to me that your criteria is simply based on how you want things to go. By your own admission, you counted all the non-Tolkien-based votes for Khamul just because you wanted to save Celeborn, and you have now taken your "stringent" stance to save Elrond. If you are to be the moderator you ought to give up "personal criteria" in the name of being fair and impartial. Moderators don't dictate the game, they simply observe and tabulate. I don't believe it should be the moderator's role to judge the votes, not secretly, and certainly not when said moderator admits to personal bias. And if you don't say whose votes you counted and whose you did not, that creates even more of an unfair, partial flavor to the whole thing. Because by leaving your "own criteria" un-explained you break the very rule you expect the other players to heed.

For one thing, it takes all the strategy and variants out of the game -- or, should I say, takes the Game out of the game. A strict, Tolkien-logic-only based discussion of character merits belongs in The Books. This is Middle-earth Mirth. If players aren't allowed to play a Survivor-esque game of Middle-earth Survivor, I'm not sure why anyone should bother.

[Kuruharan]

I rather hate to say it, but it appears to me that your criteria is simply based on how you want things to go.

-and-

This is Middle-earth Mirth. If players aren't allowed to play a Survivor-esque game of Middle-earth Survivor, I'm not sure why anyone should bother.

Hear, hear!

And far be it from me to mention somebody's inability to keep a consistent ending time in the context of this discussion...

[Lhunardawen]

Gasp! The mod's suffering from terrible mood swings!

So what's the real score? Do I have to vote for Oropher again, or should I spread trouble elsewhere?

[Lalaith]

I didn't even get a chance to vote yesterday...partly because I had NO idea when the voting day would end, they seem to fluctuate as wildly as said mood swings.

Ho Hum.

[Diamond18]

As I said above, I don't see how the game can continue the way the votes are being counted (or not counted ) without being a sham, so I hope, Form, that you will either agree to count all votes or make it clear which votes you are counting and which votes you are not. Also the "criteria" as to what is Tolkien enough or not Tolkien enough should be made crystal clear and should not change from round to round.

But that is in reference to the future. What is now past ought to be fixed.

My suggestion at the moment is this: either reinstate Khamul and evict Celeborn, or reinstate Oropher and evict Elrond. Because you cannot have it both ways without admitting that you are not playing fair with us. I know it's a bold suggestion, but we have all invested a bit of time and thought into this game, so I hope you don't mean to claim full power.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I think the recent tabulations merit a bit of an outcry.

[Lalaith]

Quite.
What is this, a Florida election?
*ducks under hail of hanging chads*

[Anguirel]

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

See the Silmarillion Survivor for an example of how a completely and openly skewed moderator can actually add some sense of purpose to the game...I hope...

[Lalaith]

You know, much as I love them, this sort of thing is exactly how the Cavaliers constructed their own demise. If only they'd stayed writing nice poetry, and wearing pretty clothes, all right-thinking people would have stayed on-side. But when they started fooling around with the democratic process....

[Lhunardawen]

In any case, let's get on with it.

++CELEBORN

He's just a silver-haired shadow of his gorgeous golden-haired wife. (Telperion and Laurelin, anyone?)

Come on! You know you love him...not!

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

You Parliamentarians, the Mod is Mod and his power is absolute. If you don't like it, work against it, but he provides the frameworks of the game and that gives him certain rights.

I would draw the line at the right to make the game completely pointless if the fancy strikes. If his power is that absolute I will simply leave the game -- it's the only sure course of action for us little people to take. But the reason, make no mistake, will be because I no longer think the game worth playing.

I would like to remind people of this post made earlier in the thread. In it, Form lays out the revised rules, which seem to me too ambivalent, but I will go with them for now.

Originally Posted by Form

This is, don't forget, a Tolkien-based game. So, I would like to see, if possible, some reasoning, preferably Tolkien-based, no matter how illogical or distorted, to accompany your votes.

It says "preferably" Tolkien-based, but not "most-definitely", and it says "no matter how illogical or distorted" so that means reasonings related to a game-play strategy are admissible.

So let us review today's votes, taking the stated criteria for "rationale" into play:

Morm kicked things off with a vote for Elrond citing personality faults. 1 for Elrond.

Ang followed up with a vote for Sauron, citing his inferiority to the Witch-King. 1 for Sauron.

Spawn reiterated her detailed attack on Elrond from the day before. 2 for Elrond.

Kuru voted for Cirdan citing his too-long stay in Middle-earth. 1 for Cirdan.

Tour voted for Cirdan, citing his beard. 2 for Cirdan.

I came along and took stock of the situation, found a tie needing to be broken, and after some thought found the contestants pretty equally matched. Because I still thought the tie ought to be broken, I used the reasoning that I did not approve of certain of Elrond's supporters' actions. 3 for Elrond.

Eonwe kickstarted the Oropher vote, citing the character's lack of oomph and criticizing the reasons for the voting thus far. 1 for Oropher

Estel voted for Elrond, citing good arguments by Spawn and others. 4 for Elrond

Celuian voted for Oropher, agreeing with Eonwe. 2 for Oropher.

Elu voted for Elrond, citing his lack of manliness, and also a desire to protect Cirdan and Oropher. 5 for Elrond

Kuru changed his vote to Elrond, citing a desire to matter in the vote tally, which I grant could or could not be taken to mean he agreed with the reasons of those against Elrond. 1 for Cirdan, 6 for Elrond.

Gil-Galad voted for Anarion, citing a long held vendetta against the character. 1 for Anarion.

He then made a deal with Kuru to cast a vote against Elrond in return for future support against Anarion. To me, this falls under the same reasoning as why he wants Anarion gone (which I am assuming has been stated earlier, correct me if I'm wrong). 0 for Anarion, 7 for Elrond.

LMP cast a vote for Narvi, citing various Tolkien-based reasons. 1 for Narvi.

Jenny voted Amandil, for being dense. 1 for Amandil.

phantom voted Oropher, citing unworthiness due to obscurity. 3 for Oropher.

lord voted Oropher, citing the fact that Phantom ordered him to, lest he be spanked. Oops, I mean, he agreed with Phantom. 4 for Oropher.

Firefoot voted Oropher, citing uselessness. 5 for Oropher.

Final vote count? 7 for Elrond, 5 for Oropher, 1 for Cirdan, 1 for Sauron, 1 for Narvi, and 1 for Amandil.

And YET, according to Form's final vote count, Elrond only got 6 votes. And then he proceeded to disqualify 4 of those for whatever reason. So out of the votes I listed above, which 5 were completely devoid of any reasoning at all? Remember, Form officially only said that complete Tolkien-based reasoning was "preferable" not "mandatory".

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason.

The only fair and open deductions I can see were perhaps Kuru and lord, though those are also rather debatable. This would bring the count to 6 for Elrond and 4 for Oropher. If you are to discount the votes of both Kuru and Gil-Galad, and keep Lord's vote, it still comes out to a TIE of 5 and 5 votes each, meaning both should go. If you discount Estel, you are making the rather broad assumption that even though he cited Spawn's reasoning, he didn't actually truly agree. If you discount me, you declare my reasoning invalid simply because it was not purely Tolkien, which I say ought not to be mandatory.

Anyway, I believe my case is now not only rested, but beaten brutally and thoroughly to death, and pushing up daises. RIP.

[Anguirel]

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it. He has now done so. In his position, admittedly, I would have revealed the criteria, but what's done is done and we shouldn't muck about with evictions. I speak as one who mourns the loss of the valiant, atypical King Oropher, and would have tried to prevent it had I not been enjoying a very fine supper.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

Persecution of Elves is no longer demographically justifiable on the slightest of grounds. The Elendili hold the lead easily.

Rather than breathing new life into the Amandil campaign, (because I appreciated that defence of him earlier) I wish to examine a new candidate: Elendil himself.

Look at his overwhelming arrogance!

Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta

"Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world."

Says who? He clearly doesn't know about Elessar XIII getting turned into a frog by Alatar in the Fifth Age...

Seriously, the man's bombast and presumption is far more staggering than Ar-Pharazon's (who was merely fighting the age-old struggle against overweening Valar Nanny Statism).

What this fellow is doing is landing-as a refugee, an immigrant seeking asylum-in lands held by fellow men.

There are two ways of dealing with being an immigrant.

The Parsee way, where you put yourself at the disposal of the local government and form a useful part of the existing community.

And the American Colonists way, where you declare the land yours and cripple the existing cultures.

Elendil, as his words show, clearly employed the second. Because of some notional Eru-given right, he drove out the indiginous "Twilight Men", ancestors of the Rohirrim, Dunlendings et al., forcing them to submit to vassalage under him or Sauron. Do not forget that many of these were Edain, just Edain who'd chosen to resist the Valar-coddling enterprise of Numenor! And all were Men! He should have respected their existing rights.

You damned Gil-Galad for far less (for no reason at all, as far as I can gather) when his tribe was in no especial dominating position.

But these Elendili are now running the show.

These genocidal interlopers must be stopped.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

++ELENDIL

[Diamond18]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

Firstly, democracy is ludicrous.

Then why are you playing a game where a democratic vote decides who goes? Because that is what the game of Survivor is. Nowhere in the initial post did Form detail any of this stuff about to-count-or-not-to-count, it was of course only when phantom challenged someone's vote (Elu's, to be precise) that the first set of guidelines was stated, and the moderator hasn't even followed those.

Secondly, I can't see how what has occurred is in breach of it. Formendacil warned he might adopt more stringent criteria for vote inclusion if he felt like it.

Well if you'll read the post, and read my above post, you'll see that his warnings and actions haven't matched up. Besides, doing something if "he feels like it" means that only he ever actually knows exactly how the game is being played. Which does indeed makes him all powerful, and power corrupts.

Besides, as long as you include Tolkien-based rationale, you're alright. Seems simple to me.

And again, I'll say that pure-Tolkien-based rationale belongs in The Books, not a Mirth game based on a TV Game that in its very nature requires something more complicated, especially when this "only Tolkien all the time" attitude has been a new development over the course of the game and has not always been followed. Khamul. Camel.

Alliance, League, whatever, just vote

I shall wait to see what the morrow brings.

[littlemanpoet]

++ Celeborn

He didn't deserve his wife. He was complacent, calling himself lord while letting her rule. Not that letting her rule was the problem, she was better at it anyway. Calling himself lord is what's the sham, if we're going to talk about shams. Celebrimbor was the better Elf.

[Firefoot]

As to Oropher, he lost 2 votes. Yet all 5 of Oropher's votes cited the exact same reason, save perhaps lord-of-dorlomin's initial reason.

This is the part that confused me the most. I completely fail to see where any line can be drawn through the votes that were made for Oropher. So even though I did vote for Oropher, I see no logicality and fairness to the way the votes were counted. The reasoning behind the votes for Oropher were hardly better than those for Elrond, so why were so many more of the Elrond votes discounted? I think if Formen is going to be selective, he needs to be objective...

[The Saucepan Man]

This is becoming more and more like a real Reality Show as time wears on, what with accusations now being made that the game is being rigged by the producer ...

But I rather agree with Diamond18. At least when Ang rigged his game, he gave justifiable, credible and ejoyable reasoning. Here, unlike in Ang's game, we just don't know where we stand. Apparently, it's OK to vote for someone because their name sounds like a desert-based beast of burden, but not because one perceives personality-faults in a contestant, real or imagined.

To be honest, this contest has become somewhat pointless because those voting have no real control over it. So I am inclined to withdraw my labour, and recommend (not order, note, a phantom ) that my fellow Alliance members do the same. That may suit the purposes of some, but it will most certainly remove a lot of the fun and intrigue (and audience figures will plummet).

At the very least, the moderator should give firm criteria on the basis of which the votes will or will not be counted, commit to end the day at approximately the same time, and give a full explanation as to which votes were not counted yesterday and why they were not counted. I would also agree with Diamond's suggestion that either Khamul be reinstated and Celeborn evicted or Oropher be reinstated and Elrond evicted.