Tol-in-Gaurhoth III (The Saga Continues...)

[Shelob]

" the dangers of playing this game that it makes one accuse and be suspicious of people in our real lives! Or is it just me?"

It might be just you, I certainly didn't have that problem...I did however run into a more unique problem...I watched Agatha Christie's The Mousetrap the same day I was lynched. Throughout the play I kept thinking things like "Now if Saucepan Man there were the murderer then..."

I don't know which was worse, the fact that this game had so invaded my life or the fact that I now picture us all snowed in at a guest house. *sighs* oh well...

[Oddwen]

Thank you, thank you, thank you. This was a really fun game!

Shelob and Holby, it was a true joy to wreak havoc with you two. Grrrrrrr-l power!

I was laughing so hard this whole game...every new theory had me rolling on the floor. Thank you especially to SpM, Fordim, and dear dear Kuru.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Holby m'dear, I'm so sorry: I forgot about your EYES!!!!

That would have been pretty disastrous if you had PMd Fordim - did you realise the mistake as you were typing? I had considered PMing the wolves to make sure they knew that they had been foiled. Little did I realise how important that might have been!

[Holbytlass]

I had asked Eomer in the event of my death, if he would put something in about my eyes, that could be my signature death. That's fine, I had forgotten it myself. The irony of this is that I totally freak out in real-life about any sort of eye-injury. I love to watch operations except anything to do with eyes.

I was reading the posts after Firefoot's save of Fordim. Someone had mentioned both scenarios, so that's what saved me. I know I would have put in all our names!
I'm glad you didn't P.M. to let us know. It was kinda of fun thinking and wondering and hoping. After awhile though, it's obvious we didn't get the cursed because Fordim had not contacted us. And it would have been quite funny to see the turn of events had I made that fatal blunder.

Another thing, we didn't kill TGWBS to cast suspicion on Forim. He just happened to be the first one killed who wasn't a major accuser or suspicious person.

[The Saucepan Man]

When Fordim had been saved by Firefoot that night, I forgot about the guardian. I almost P.M.'ed him welcoming him to our pack!!

Yes, one of the benefits of being an innocent (and entirely ordinary) Villager is that you don't have to be so careful what you say. Most of the time, I just posted my thoughts and opinions honestly and openly (although, given the direction in which they took me, they were what led to me being a major suspect for most of the time that I was playing).

Another thing, we didn't kill TGWBS to cast suspicion on Forim. He just happened to be the first one killed who wasn't a major accuser or suspicious person.

Of course, a disadvantage of being an innocent Villager is that you read suspicious motives in everything that is said or done ...

[Evisse the Blue]

I guess that the beauty of games like this, and especially of this particular game, is that you get to watch brilliant minds at work, analysing everything with the clarity of reason and common sense and coming to the wrong conclusion.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Many of you were unintentionally hilarious in your misplaced certainty.

Especially Kuruharan.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Many of you were unintentionally hilarious in your misplaced certainty.

Especially Kuruharan.

Yes yes it's so easy to laugh at us blind villagers accuse each other while you have omnipotence in the situation. Reading some non-players say "Oh I have my thoughts" or "I know who I would be going for" I just want to scream "AHHHHHH!!!" It's so much more difficult when you're in the game and trying to make sense of anything let alone everything said. I think it's analogous to a game show--so easy for the viewers at home but difficult when you're actually up on stage.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I can talk the talk but........

"Ainaserkewen is definitely a werewolf. It's so obvious." - (yours truly).



One vivid memory I have is gasping in horror when I realised that Evisse was going to be killed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Eomer

Especially Kuruharan.

Although it wasn't entirely unreasonable. I pretty much knew that I was on the way out as soon as SoN was lynched and found to be innocent. I was surprised that it ended up being the phantom and not me on Day 3.

[Kuruharan]

Many of you were unintentionally hilarious in your misplaced certainty.

Especially Kuruharan.

You play long enough and it will happen to you. The villagers from this time will all be watching you now.

I was surprised that it ended up being the phantom and not me on Day 3.

You weren't the only one.

In the future, now that you and I have proved that one can go about willy-nilly hanging innocents left and right and get away with it, everyone is going to have to be watching for werewolves trying to pull that trick.

[Shelob]

" I was surprised that it ended up being the phantom and not me on Day 3." ~SPM

I at least wanted to keep you alive as long as possible...the way I saw it after Evisse's death you were the only person standing between me and the gallows...so long as you were alive and suspicious why would anyone look to me, once you died and were proven innocent who would get the blame for our seer's death? Me. (Hence my seemingly random vote for Phantom)

[Holbytlass]

That's a major reason why our simple strategy worked so well this time around. We wolves were so 'laid back' in a village of analitical over-thinking (I don't mean this in any sort of offensive manner).

Even if we had lost, I was very proud of us being able to stump the village for awhile.

[Holbytlass]

Good Grief!! See, see, it is just coincidence that we post at the same time!!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Shelob

I at least wanted to keep you alive as long as possible...

Indeed. I had no doubt that I was enrolled on a Werewolf-managed life-support programme. At least I knew that I was pretty safe during the Nights.

[Shelob]

Since I was just reminded of it I figured you guys might be interested in *dramatic music* The Origin Of Storyland

or if that's not working because you don't have flash or it's too slow or something you can just go look at the map


(In case your wondering I spent many of my summers there when I was younger...but never saw any werewolves)

[Holbytlass]

Here's another thing I remembered that people might get a kick out of.....
Bear in mind this not to discredit Eomer at all, he is a worthy mod. This is just to show how insane one may get when trying to figure things out on days of little sleep...

On the night that we killed mormegil, before we had even made a choice, I for one was so hoping to get the cursed villager. When I was looking at Eomer's latest list of who was left alive...I...um...I thought he was giving us a clue. I noticed that Eomer spelled mormegil with a lower case 'm' and everyone else's names with caplitals. Until I saw that's how mormegil did spell his name. Pathetic!! Yes, I admit I was grasping at straws; and my dear wolf-friend Shelob pointed out I was grasping at invisible straws!!

[mormegil]

Yes may I ask why I did go that night? I thought that perhaps I cast sufficient suspicion on me to avoid you but apparently not.

Also about the lower case m...that is a sore spot with me and I wish it could be changed. I didn't realize that I had done so until after the registration process.

[the phantom]

I am finished with my traditional post-game summary on my Random Thoughts page.

Enjoy...

[The Saucepan Man]

Phantom, in response to your wondering why you were such a prime suspect on the first three Days, I believe (although you were not top of my suspects and my vote for you was out of necessity) that this was primarily because of your experience at playing this game, which makes you dangerous in the eyes of innocent Villager and Werewolf alike, your "flip-flop" on Fordim's proposals, and your defensiveness in response to the accusations made against you.

You are certainly correct that being a prime suspect ties one's hands to a significant degree. This was the reason that I did not bother making any accusations or go overboard in trying to defend myself on Day 3 and just focussed on trying to appear innocent (which I was). I hoped that this would put me in a better position on Day 4, but alas it was not to be.

[Holbytlass]

After we, Oddwen Shelob and I, decided to lay low it became apparent who to kill at night and who to leave to be hanged (hopefully) in the day.

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Indeed. I had no doubt that I was enrolled on a Werewolf-managed life-support programme. At least I knew that I was pretty safe during the Nights.

Very true, and so was Fordim, Kuru, and The Phantom because of there very fierce suspicions and finger-pointing at each other.
Azalia was on this list because even though most didn't suspect her, we needed a little bit of padding in our 'quiet' group.

That left the 'middle' group of TORE, SoN, Mormegil, TGWBS and Firefoot to choose from. Shelob saved our p.m.'s, so she could find out specifically why we chose you, Mormegil, on that particular night.

And I'm sorry, Evisse, the others hanged you to soon to know which group you would have been in!

Edit: Just read Phantom's page....hostility afterwards,hm.
All I can say is that if the rules are changed to kill off quiet people, that's fine. I certainly will follow any rule to be able to play. I don't regret using that strategy and I still think it is a good one, even if we had lost. There is no rule saying we have to use one kind of strategy. What's going to happen if a future pack of wolves decide for all to be 'loud', will there be a 'limited number of posts' rule?
I'm sorry if people have played it elsewhere and differently and didn't think of various strategies until too late, but I will not apologize for the opportunity we took!

[the guy who be short]

Holbytlass, you claimed that I was killed because I was one of the "Middle-people." Did you conceive your loudmouth plan that early in the game, seeing as I was killed first?
I thought I was fairly loud, actually...

And don't worry, I won't be implementing any quietness rules next game at least. There will be a participation rule though (looks at Azaelia ).

[Holbytlass]

TGWBS: No, we didn't have our plan that early on. I suppose now I shouldn't necessarily put you on that list. I have misplaced my notes from the first days, I will have to get together with Oddwen and Shelob and write up why we killed a person when we did.

[the phantom]

your defensiveness in response to the accusations made against you

I entirely reject the notion that defensiveness is suspicious. If you are a common villager then the only thing you know for sure is that you are innocent, therefore when there is no reason for people to lynch you, you should be extremely adamant about it.

Certainly more adamant than you are about who is a wolf, since you obviously don't know who is, where as you do know you are innocent.

Surely that makes sense?

Especially in my case, where (as I explain in my review) I had no concrete evidence against me. I would be a fool not to scream it out.

I don't regret using that strategy and I still think it is a good one

Yes, it was a perfect strategy. If you don't say anything then logically there will never be more evidence to lynch you than to lynch someone else. As a matter of fact, if all our lynchings had to be based on some sort of evidence (votes or statements), then the perfect strategy would be not to post at all.

But that's a bit silly and it is why my friends and I play with a non-participation rule.

What's going to happen if a future pack of wolves decide for all to be 'loud', will there be a 'limited number of posts' rule?

I doubt it. This game is all about finding wolves based upon who people have been implicating, defending, and voting for, therefore it is unlikely anyone would ever object to people being extremely forthcoming and forceful with their thoughts because it clearly defines their position. The purpose of a non-participation rule is to ensure that everyone takes some sort of position. After all, we are supposed to be making our accusation based upon the positions of others. So, there will probably never be a rule against having a very clear position. Only having no position is a significant obstacle.

That is why I suggested killing all of you on day two. I saw the lack of information coming from the quiet ones as a large obstacle, whether you were guilty or not. But, as I said on my review, there was no way I could possibly orchestrate a mass lynching, so it didn't matter what I wanted to do.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by the phantom

I entirely reject the notion that defensiveness is suspicious. If you are a common villager then the only thing you know for sure is that you are innocent, therefore when there is no reason for people to lynch you, you should be extremely adamant about it.

I will have to disagree Phantom. As one of the leaders in the "lynch phantom" corner I saw your squirming similar to Firefoot's when I was the seer and knew her to be the wolf. She herself said so this game too.

I don't see a problem in defending yourself but the louder you shout "I'M INNOCENT" the less likely I am to believe you.

[the phantom]

I saw your squirming similar to Firefoot's when I was the seer and knew her to be the wolf

I wasn't "squirming". I was forcefully stating facts.

I don't see a problem in defending yourself but the louder you shout "I'M INNOCENT" the less likely I am to believe you.

Why? Saying it louder or softer does not change any the evidence, votes, facts, and such.

If two people say the same thing they should be treated equally. If you suspect one of them more than the other based on something other than what they have said and what it means, you are obviously allowing something other than information to influence your thinking.

It doesn't matter if they use caps to make their case. The only thing that should matter is what they say.

And I would remind you that the reason I started getting so loud was because all of the things I was saying appeared to be bouncing right off everyone and not sinking in.

If people are ignoring my points don't be surprised if I get loud.

[The Saucepan Man]

But you have to adapt to take into account the attitudes of the people you are playing with, phantom. If people (rightly or wrongly) regard overly defensive behaviour as suspicious, then you have to take that into account.

Personally, I do regard a overly defensive behaviour as a possible sign of guilt, because in my view Villagers shoud be prepared to die (either by the noose or the claw) if it will help the other Villagers to win. It can also be counter-productive if a Villager spends so much time in defence that they neglect to try to find the clues. That's just my opinion, but it will have a bearing on the way that I play and, if it is shared by other players, then the overly defensive do risk finding themselves under suspicion.

[mormegil]

Well I will admit that I'm rather dull witted but I will say that the reaction I saw in you gave me more reason to assume your guilt. I know that you don't agree with it but that's the impression I had.

[the phantom]

Personally, I do regard a overly defensive behaviour as a possible sign of guilt, because in my view Villagers shoud be prepared to die

But only for a good reason, my dear SP.

My death offered nothing since both of my previous votes had been forced, not to mention, as someone pointed out on that day, I was very distanced from everyone else so my death would not implicate anyone.

Even if you do think that we should consider how people say things, how something was said should never take precedence over what was said.

The primary charges leveled against me on day three were 1) I had received votes before, 2) I had voted for the two people who were lynched, and 3) they had voted for me, too.

I demonstrated quite logically that those three points were meaningless (now that the game is over I hope everyone can now see that), but since people were letting what was said to take a back seat to other things, my logic went right past them.

Then, hoping that people would take notice of the substance of my arguments, I repeated them all with a raised voice. But it did not make them listen. Instead, they said that raising my voice made me look guiltier.

At that point I wanted to strangle everyone and began to feel rather hostile towards my own village, so I screamed my arguments again out of desperation hoping that what I said would finally be noticed.

But the what remained firmly behind the how in the minds of the villagers, and I was lynched.

Not putting an emphasis on what I said resulted in an extremely useless slaying, and I imagine that similar behavior will result in similar results in future games.

[mormegil]

The primary charges leveled against me on day three were 1) I had received votes before, 2) I had voted for the two people who were lynched, and 3) they had voted for me, too.

I demonstrated quite logically that those three points were meaningless (now that the game is over I hope everyone can now see that), but since people were letting what was said to take a back seat to other things, my logic went right past them.

Feeling that this comment is directed at me I will say that those weren't the primary factors in my vote. I suspected you since day 1. My main suspicion was based on you notorious flip-flop with your reasoning given. Also you have stated that votes are solid evidence so why not look at the fact that you voted for two innocents whether your vote was "forced" or not. It's easy to say that you were forced to vote that way but it could have also been that you were a wolf and were waiitng to see who you could kill to save yourself.

[Shelob]

"Shelob saved our p.m.'s, so she could find out specifically why we chose you, Mormegil, on that particular night." ~Holbytlass

Yes I did, unfortunately due to being rushed often they're not all in order...which makes reading them a headache...

If you are curious though the reasoning behind Mormegil's death was that either Mormegil or Fordim would be the best kill that night and that Fordim was probably "out of the running for our next kill because he has hit closest so far and it would be suspicious for him to die...we'll risk a lot keeping him alive I just think we'll risk more should we kill him..."

If you want for us to go through and list why we killed who we killed I'll gladly do it, but unfortunately I likely own't be able to get it posted before saturday morning (I've work this evening and school tomorrow--so maybe Friday evening I can do it)...but let me know.

[the guy who be short]

I would like to know if there was more behind choosing me that first night than just randomly pointing a finger. However, I'm in no hurry, so take your time.

[the phantom]

Feeling that this comment is directed at me

You weren't the only one, so don't take the entire weight of my comments upon yourself. There are those you should share it with.

My main suspicion was based on you notorious flip-flop with your reasoning given.

Then why did you not mention it even once on the day you lynched me?

You asked why I did it on day one and I explained my reasoning, and I considered it pretty much burried after that. Plus, why would you be more suspicious of someone who had reversed positions on a seer-killing plan more than someone who had written a seer-killing plan? If that day one plan was you big concern, you definitely should've been gunning for Fordim.

But since you didn't mention it on day three I don't see how it was a factor.

However, I can see how someone looking back trying to justify their vote could think "Hmm, well... I must've suspected him because of that day one flip-flop. Yeah- that must've been it" when actually you weren't thinking about that at the time I was lynched.

I'm not sure if that is the case with you or not. Either way, it seems odd that my reaction to the plan was never mentioned if it was indeed the primary reason for your vote.

Also you have stated that votes are solid evidence so why not look at the fact that you voted for two innocents whether your vote was "forced" or not.

The fact that it was forced is what makes all the difference!

If there is no choice involved then there can be no guilt assigned.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

My dear dear Phantom.

Still at it, I see.

Rather than expending all your energy on explaining why we shouldn't have found you a suspicious character, perhaps it would be better spent on looking in the mirror and deciding how to amend your gamesmanship so that you do not appear guilty in the future....

[the phantom]

perhaps it would be better spent on looking in the mirror and deciding how to amend your gamesmanship so that you do not appear guilty in the future....

Well, if I were to assume that I was at fault, my corrective action would have to be this- in the future, if someone accuses me of being guilty for a non-reason, I should not object.

Hmm... that sounds like a very silly plan, Fordim.

It is an indisputable fact that the main reasons people stated for lynching me on day three, while I'm sure they sounded good upon first hearing, do not logically hold any water when examined carefully.

It is ludicrous to expect someone to sit back and accept such a thing.

If, in the next game, several people say they think you are a wolf because your name starts with an "F", would you honestly not tell everyone "That is a very silly reason!"?

Of course you would tell them that, and I would be right there beside you telling them to leave you alone.

When false evidence is used to sentence someone to death, the rational reaction is to jump up and point it out.

When it appears that your objections were not understood, it is the rational reaction to restate it again forcefully.

When the second attempt is seemingly ignored, it is the rational reaction to become completely frustrated and desperate.

Why should I amend my completely rational behavior?

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Good game, all! I'm sorry I wasn't more active, but my real, non-Storyland life got in the way big time. Now, summer is here and school is pretty much over! So I will be able to be much more active next time around. (And I'd better be, too, what with the new rule!)

I'm actually astounded that I wasn't lynched or dismembered sooner. Of the quiet people, I was the quietest, and sometimes was missing from the vote entirely. I didn't at all expect to last as long as I did.

[The Saucepan Man]

The phantom is getting defensive again. I am suspicious of him.

As I have said, phantom, I had no particular reason to suspect you, and my vote was primarily based on self-preservation. But the vigour with which you defended yourself on that day did make me wonder whether we might finally have found a Wolf. It's perfectly proper to point out why you think the accusations being made against you are groundless, but to do so repetitively and at length seemed to me to be strange. As an innocent Villager, I feel that one eventually has to accept either that people have taken one's points on board and dismissed them (rightly or wrongly) or that they are never going to take them on board, and concentrate instead on developing alternative theories. But everyone has a different approach, as I said earlier.

I did feel at the time that the Villagers made a mistake in only giving serious consideration to two Villagers that day (you and me - both innocent), but that was because I knew that I was innocent and had no strong reason to suspect you. However, I can see and understand why it happened that way.

We all feel rather aggrieved when we are wrongly lynched. We think the other Villagers are silly to do so because we know we are innocent and that such evidence as there is pointing at us is circumstantial. But there's no point in taking it too personally. And it seems rather redundant to continue making the arguments now that the game is over. The fact is, whatever the merits of your arguments, a sufficent number of innocent Villagers rejected them to result in your being lynched.

[Holbytlass]

And some wonder why we were so quiet , because it was so easy!!

No, it would have looked too suspicious if Phantom did actually push for the tied lynchings of the quiet group, but it would have been spectacular had it been pulled off!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

++the Phantom

[the phantom]

The phantom is getting defensive again.

NO I'M NOT!!!!

Umm...I mean...

As you can see, I didn't act any different in the game than I usually do. Don't I have a reputation here on the Downs for being generally rigid and uncompromising?

I certainly hope I do. I try awfully hard at it.

and my vote was primarily based on self-preservation

Of course it was. It was your duty to vote for me since you knew you were innocent where as you did not know I was. No harm done.

I feel that one eventually has to accept either that people have taken one's points on board and dismissed them (rightly or wrongly) or that they are never going to take them on board

Let me be the first to tell you that I am not very good at accepting things.

And it seems rather redundant to continue making the arguments now that the game is over.

Much of what I am saying is in response to other people's posts- such as this post which is responding to your post.

And the primary focus of this discussion is not my lynching and the evidence that led to it, but the way I defended myself. If it was the former, then it would agree that this is overkill, but debating methods of defense is something that could have a legitimate effect upon later games and help in the understanding of villager behavior in the future, so I don't apologize for discussing it in detail.

it would have looked too suspicious if Phantom did actually push for the tied lynchings of the quiet group

Yes, that's exactly why I didn't try it.

++the Phantom

Great. I'm even a suspect when we're not playing. I just can't catch a break.