Family Tree Trivia

[Huinesoron]

So go on then: how many times does the name 'Finwë' appear in the family tree of House Finwë, assuming you give both Mother and Father-names of everyone in Quenya (where known)?

hS

[Urwen]

Eleven times?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Eleven times?

Nope, it's more than that.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Nope, it's more than that.

hS

Ooh, no, wait... technically, as the question was asked, this answer is correct.

Finwe Nolofinwe and Finwe Arafinwe added those extra Finwes themselves, so they're not in their Father-names. Well done.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ooh, no, wait... technically, as the question was asked, this answer is correct.

Finwe Nolofinwe and Finwe Arafinwe added those extra Finwes themselves, so they're not in their Father-names. Well done.

hS

Someone somewhere at some point said that if the eldest followed those traditions, his Sindarin name would have been Fincurfin.....

[Urwen]

Which two individuals have the largest number of recorded children?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Which two individuals have the largest number of recorded children?

How tricksy are you being? Because the tricksy answers are Iluvatar and Aule, who between them have every Elf, Man, and Dwarf in the world.

Non-tricksy... going to throw out a guess at Mistress Rose and Sam-dad.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Non-tricksy... going to throw out a guess at Mistress Rose and Sam-dad.
hS

Yeah. I had Sam and Feanor in mind, but I forgot Rosie.

Back to you.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Yeah. I had Sam and Feanor in mind, but I forgot Rosie.

Back to you.

Oh, well then: after Sam and Rosie, which couple had the next-most children? It's not Feanor and Nerdanel.

hS

[Urwen]

If it's some hobbit, I won't be bothered. It's impossible to suss out which one was the most virile.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

If it's some hobbit, I won't be bothered. It's impossible to suss out which one was the most virile.

I mean, it's a pretty famous one. I would call him superlative, except that both Sam and Bilbo beat him.

hS

[Urwen]

Gerontius and Adamanta, choo-choo.

[Urwen]

Okay, so the three most virile couples are

1. Sam and Rosie
2. Gerontius and Adamanta
3. Feanor and Nerdanel

That is, unless you can find someone else who is more virile than Feanor/Nerdanel and less virile than Gerontius/Adamanta?

[Urwen]

So am I correct?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Gerontius and Adamanta, choo-choo.

Yep, that's the ones.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, so the three most virile couples are

1. Sam and Rosie
2. Gerontius and Adamanta
3. Feanor and Nerdanel

That is, unless you can find someone else who is more virile than Feanor/Nerdanel and less virile than Gerontius/Adamanta?

Oh, now you've got me hunting... it looks like Gorbadoc Brandybuck had seven kids with Mirabella Took (daughter of Gerontius), matching Feanor. There's at least one Hobbit family with six, but after that you're down to endless sets of five kids.

hS

[Urwen]

Who is Istarnie's grandson?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Who is Istarnie's grandson?

Okay, that's a female name derived from 'wisdom' (I think that's what Istar comes from). I'm gonna guess... Nerdanel, which would make her grandson Celebrimbor.

Okay, it's 'knowledge', not 'wisdom', but my answer still stands.

hS

[Urwen]

Yeah.

[Huinesoron]

Okay, okay: a lot of Mortals in Middle-earth have some proportion of immortal heritage. Of the women who were accounted Mortal from birth to death, which has the highest proportion of Immortal in her?

hS

[Galadriel55]

Okay, a bit challenging to do without being able to sit down and draw things out, but here goes.

Thinking of the three marriages between Elves and Men and their female descendents, the answer that comes to mind is Aragorn's unnamed daughters, as they stand closest to such a marriage. Elwing would have a higher proportion but she is immortal herself. However, I don't even know where to start when counting Aragorn's daughters' Immortal. Do we assume Arwen to be full Elf, as she was one before meeting Aragorn, or Half-Elven by virtue of Elrond's heritage? Besides, Aragorn himself has an uncountable proportion of Immortal, as his ancestors between Elros and himself intermarried with distant cousins who also were of Luthien's line. Arathorn and Gilraen themselves both claimed descent from Elros. So depending on how you count everything, these women may have as much as 1/2+(uncountable but minute) Immortal, or as little as 13/32 + (same uncountable minute amount).



* Arwen's breakdown:
Elwing is 3/4 Immortal
Earendil is 1/2 Immortal
Elrond is thus 5/8 Immortal
Celebrian is Full Elven
Making Arwen 13/16 Immortal


How did I do without pen or paper to do the counting?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

How did I do without pen or paper to do the counting?

I deliberately avoided saying 'immortal blood', but that was what I was thinking, so 13/32+ is the number by my reckoning. I think you're right that they take the title: their main competition would be Tindomiel, daughter of Elros, but she's (5/8 + 0/8 = ) 10/32 immortal.

... no, wait, I'm wrong. There is a named, presumptively-mortal woman with a higher Immortal fraction (exactly 1/2, as it happens), who holds the distinction of being the only fully mortal daughter of a full Elf and a Man.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Gilmith?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Gilmith?

Gilmith, daughter of Imrazor The Numenorean(TM) and Mithrellas, is who I was thinking of. I guess her name means 'Grey Star', which is actually kind of cool.

Over to you.

hS

[Pervinca Took]

Oh no! What have I done? I don't know how to play this game!

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Oh no! What have I done? I don't know how to play this game!

Don't worry, nor do I... I've been playing on the basis of 'any family tree-related questions are okay'. That's anything from 'who is this relation to X', to 'what is the relationship between X and Y', to this sort of 'who is the most/least something or other'. It's been a wild ride...

hS

[Urwen]

Okay, it's been days and Pervinca didn't post a new clue, so in the interest of continuing...

What relation do Eomer, Eowyn and Maeglin have towards their respective Kings (hint: it's the same one.)

(Why do I include Maeglin in everything? Because I can. )

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Okay, it's been days and Pervinca didn't post a new clue, so in the interest of continuing...

What relation do Eomer, Eowyn and Maeglin have towards their respective Kings (hint: it's the same one.)

(Why do I include Maeglin in everything? Because I can. )

Ooh, I know this one! They're all madly in love with their king's child. (This is why Eowyn is so sad all the time - not only was she besotted with her dead cousin, she also knew he preferred Eomer. Hence Theodred's last words: ""Let me lie here to protect the Fords, until Eomer arrives.")

Oh, and I suppose their kings are all their uncles. There's that, too.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ooh, I know this one! They're all madly in love with their king's child. (This is why Eowyn is so sad all the time - not only was she besotted with her dead cousin, she also knew he preferred Eomer. Hence Theodred's last words: ""Let me lie here to protect the Fords, until Eomer arrives.")

Oh, and I suppose their kings are all their uncles. There's that, too.

hS

*laughs madly*

(Correct.)

[Huinesoron]

Right, I wanted to ask this about Aragorn, but as far as I can tell the answer is just "hahaha no," so:

Who is Arwen's closest named cousin whose lifespan overlaps with hers?

hS

[Urwen]

That requires extensive math, so I'll just say both halves of 'Fallen Banners' ship and be done with it.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Who is Arwen's closest named cousin whose lifespan overlaps with hers?

On the Elvish side, I believe the last of the family is dead before the end of the Second Age, with the deaths of Celebrimbor and Gil-Galad. Arwen was born after the start of the TA. So looking therefore at the human side of the lineage, Arwen's cousin-many-times-removed Valandil was alive when she was born.

[Huinesoron]

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

...You aren't talking about Finrod reborn?

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I'm not sure what the 'Fallen Banners' ship is, but I do know you're both wrong. She reportedly has a living first cousin twice removed.

hS

If you don't know what Fallen Banners is, then how do you know I'm wrong?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

...You aren't talking about Finrod reborn?

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.

Originally Posted by Urwen

If you don't know what Fallen Banners is, then how do you know I'm wrong?

Because you said 'both halves', and this closest cousin is a singleton.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I first posted about Elwing being related to Celeborn. Then I deleted it, cause I thought, that's silly, Elwing is Arwen's grandmother. And now I'm posting the answer again, because given Elven family trees one can be both a grandma and a cousin.


Edit: tried to check the same for Earendil going through Galadriel, but that takes too many steps I think.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.

Yes he is. Also, "lifespan" would then also be a stretch in his case.


But here is another oddball I haven't considered initially: Ar-Pharazon. He remains in a sort of deathless state, suspended by Eru, right? It would take quite a bit of genealogy checking to say for certain, but just chronology-wise he is a closer cousin than Valandil.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

I like that (and missed it), but I think he's her great-uncle.



Because you said 'both halves', and this closest cousin is a singleton.

hS

Well, they are singletons too. Fallen Banners is a fan couple, not a canonical one.

[Huinesoron]

Elwing: I think she'd be Arwen's second cousin? They're both great-granddaughters of Galadhon. But I think you generally take only the closest relationship, right? Otherwise, the Hobbits - whooo-ee!

According to the coefficient of relationship page, second cousin and first cousin twice removed are identically close (3.125%). So Elwing would be a viable answer - were she not her great granny.

Pharazon is also an interesting catch, but still very distant by comparison.

Fallen Banners: sure, but I can only find one person whose closest relationship to Arwen is at the first cousin twice removed level. It doesn't matter who you ship them with, that person would be more distant. Or dead.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Elwing: I think she'd be Arwen's second cousin? They're both great-granddaughters of Galadhon. But I think you generally take only the closest relationship, right? Otherwise, the Hobbits - whooo-ee!

According to the coefficient of relationship page, second cousin and first cousin twice removed are identically close (3.125%). So Elwing would be a viable answer - were she not her great granny.

Pharazon is also an interesting catch, but still very distant by comparison.

Fallen Banners: sure, but I can only find one person whose closest relationship to Arwen is at the first cousin twice removed level. It doesn't matter who you ship them with, that person would be more distant. Or dead.

hS

But if we treat them as separate people, rather than a ship, then one of them could work as an answer...