Tol-in-Gaurhoth (Isle of Werewolves)

[Saurreg]

Hi, I'm not too fond about the role-playing aspect and will hence sit this one out. Enjoy yourselves.

[Oddwen]

If there's another spot open, I'd like to play again. And not die.
And I shall be...a gardener/florist. Flower power, and all that groovy stuff.

[Evisse the Blue]

Though not overly fond of the role-playing aspect either (for entirely selfish reasons, that is because I'm not good at it) I am not going to sit this one out, it's too much fun. My only minor concern is with the time zones, I am with those that would like this bit explained one more time.Sorry for being so dense.

Anyway, since you guys beat me to all the cool occupations, I'll be a fishmonger. And I'll wheel my wheel barrow, through streets wide and narrow....you know the song. ; ) I'm a friendly and familiar sort of person. How else would I be if I expect people to buy from me?
Looking forward to seeing you all in "Story Land". : )

[Son of Númenor]

I am the bushy-bearded village contractor.

[mormegil]

Our village will need religious leadership and I will be our Cleric. I am tall and trim. Not given to laughter or riotous living. I prefer study to socializing and preaching over much debate. I am caring of the people but have a propensity to be a bit self-righteous.

(I don't feel that I'm great at the role playing aspect but it seems fun though.) If I may make one request I would ask that we not bring up past games. Whether out right refering to it or saying that in another town with my namesake. I think previous games have no bearing on this new game and shouldn't be taken into our councils.

[The Barrow-Wight]

Sorry for the delay. I think Eomer is going to make a great werewolf snack the first NIGHT of the game. Have fun everyone!

[Kuruharan]

But consider an example from the last game: Nimrodel_9 was lynched without being afforded the chance to defend herself. What absolute drama, had she confronted the baying mob and, with a silver tongue, persuaded the villagers to lynch someone else.

I still disagree strongly with this decision. Being in a *cough* position to know , I promise you that bilbo_baggins almost met exactly the same fate in the first game and it was a tactical decision on my part to spare him. That cannot be counted on to happen again. I believe that it is still too easy for the werewolves to be able to manipulate the hasty voting of people who vote too quickly. (And this as a former werewolf). I like the idea of there being some reason for people to take their time. (Of course, now, against the odds, I'll probably be a werewolf and my own arguments could come back to bite me in the butt... )

Nimrodel_9 was slightly different too because it was so painfully obvious that she was a werewolf (or at least it seemed painfully obvious since the Seer had not dreamt about her). What was there to say or do differently?

And is a new job really better or more important than Werewolf?

Better? No! Definitely not!

More important? Well...I like to eat once in a while (and buy new video games too...) and werewolf doesn't put food on the table.

Oh...wait a minute...

I guess I'll be the weird dwarf who drifted into town, took a fancy to Saucepan's beer and moved in. Do you think this role will be a stretch for me?

[Holbytlass]

Very funny, Real Estel...but no fair giving wolves (and moderator) ideas! Otherwise you could fall upon hard things other than just times!

Evisse-don't worry about the time zones. When the mod (in this case Eomer) posts the beginning of Day or Night phase just look at the time he posted in the upper left corner of the post. Then you know you have 24 hours from that time to do whatever you need to. Hope that helps.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

If participants are more comfortable with unretractable votes then we might as well use that method again. We have plenty of time left before we start so give us some thoughts. It's not a major issue; whatever suits you guys will be used.

I thought I would put it off until 6PM GMT (1PM EST) on Friday to give everyone a fair chance to discuss issues and sign up; and, of course, to build anticipation!

As for the times, I thought I would list GMT and EST in my posts. If there are other times which any participants want to see then just let us know.

Saurreg, honestly, the role-playing aspect is actually very minor. It's very easy to ignore. We'd love to have new players but if you'd rather sit this one out then that's fine.

Saucy, your words of wisdom have been heeded. And Oddwen is in.

Another thing: remember that the roles will be assigned randomly. So just because morm and Holby were the previous seers, it does not mean that they are any less likely to be the seer this time.

morm's words are also fair enough. We need to properly distinguish betwixt the games of Werewolf, so nothing is to be said of previous villages or wolves or 'marriages' or lynchings.


So....for now: let's hear your thoughts about the retractable votes. And Evisse, if you could specify your concerns about the times please.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

I think that a vote, once cast, should stay cast and not be open to changing -- for the simple reason that allowing vote changes gives the werewolves an advantage insofar as they could vote for each other, then switch if there's a danger of the vote going against one of their number.

[Mithalwen]

I personally prefer the option of retracting a vote ... partly it is more realistic and interesting if there is the possibility of changing people minds ... but of course I would find it very suspicious if votes were changed randomly rather than because of some convincing argument. If you have unretractable votes... someone may vote early becasue they cannot be certain of getting back online and fear punishment for non-participation and then see something has happened that chages their mind - ie a post by someone who might be the seer.... Also there is a tendency to follow the herd once say 3 votes are up... the result seems inevitable so it is waved through.... and so if the 3 wolves are clever they can get someone lynched straight off .... I think the irretractable vote favours the wolves...

[Firefoot]

We need some more ladies, right?

Hear, hear! So here I am.

I put off joining for so long because if it started too late I wouldn't be able to finish... Yeah, that wouldn't be good.

I run a local stable.

About the option to retract a vote, my thoughts are thus. I merely want to allow the possibility. I am by no means encouraging hasty votes and would, of course, encourage all players to think long and hard about their votes (obsess over the game like some of us do ) I know this will affect the length of the DAYS: they will last 24 hours whatever happens. But consider an example from the last game: Nimrodel_9 was lynched without being afforded the chance to defend herself. What absolute drama, had she confronted the baying mob and, with a silver tongue, persuaded the villagers to lynch someone else.

So, if we used retractable votes, the day would continue even after a majority had been reached? Personally, I don't mind having retractable votes (despite having been lynched under a majority of changed votes... ), but I think that once a majority is reached that should be the end of it. It seems to me that once there is a majority people aren't going to be as willing to change their votes, anyway. Maybe that's just me, though. I wouldn't mind using an irretractable vote, either.

[Mithalwen]

Oh I agree that once a majority is reached that should be it ..... because unless you can be online 24/7 it would make it impossible.

[Oddwen]

I would prefer a retractable vote. I'm one of those who are deathly afraid to make hasty destructive decisions...

Also, I was looking online and found a couple of links to some alternate variations within WWf that sounded interesting.

[Son of Númenor]

I would prefer a retractable vote. I'm one of those who are deathly afraid to make hasty destructive decisions...

I'm with Fordim on this one. If you're afraid of being too hasty, wait until you are completely comfortable (or almost out of time) until you cast your vote. As Saucepan Man said, you can make accusations as boldly or meekly as you want without having to cast a vote. Voting too early and retracting it may prove a "destructive decision" in the long run, as it could muddy the water, so to speak.

[Holbytlass]

I don't mind either voting way, both have their pros and cons. The reality is that one may be held in suspicion of being a werewolf if one votes too soon, or too late, or not at all, or changes the vote, or keeps the vote, etc....
I do think once a majority vote has been reached then it is final.

[Evisse the Blue]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

So....for now: let's hear your thoughts about the retractable votes. And Evisse, if you could specify your concerns about the times please.

No concerns anymore, as Holbytlass explained it to me, thanks Holbytlass.

As for retractable votes, I'm for.
I think that someone can very well change their minds after they've heard others' arguments, without it looking suspicious.

[Shelob]

I can understand the argument for changing votes, esp. 'cause it is rather unbelievable that people wouldn't change their votes. But as I see the point of having final votes is so that people can discuss whom to kill without worrying about seeing "++Shelob " or "--Shelob" in the middle of everyone's posts.

If you, instead of casting a vote whenever you change your mind, simply make your current opinion and the reasons for it clear then once you've had a fair chance to read/see as many different views as possible you'll be in a possition to make one well informed* vote rather than ye-many shots in the dark.


*taking into account, of course, the lying and trickery of the werewolves, the subtle attempts at guidance from the seer, and the unsurety of anything/everything.

[the guy who be short]

I'm anti-retractable votes. It is simple enough to consider different points until the final moment without voting each time you change your mind, and I think it would make people consider things more seriously if they only got the on shot at it.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Interesting link Oddwen, though I'm not too keen on introducing any of those new roles. They seem fairly 'samey' anyway, or designed for the card game.

The retractable votes issue is apparently causing a bit of a stir. You seem slightly in favour of 'sticky votes' that you cannot afterwards change. I suppose I'll decide tomorrow which to use. Either way, I don't think either decision should detract too much from the game. But keep posting your thoughts. We still have quite a bit of time.

Firefoot is in.

Saucy - a question about the Werewolf Hunter (yeah, another one ). If it comes down to the Hunter and one werewolf, who wins? I can see a case for both individuals. How would you settle this?

Another thought: how many participants would be required to demand four werewolves? Because we might still ensnare more players.

[the phantom]

how many participants would be required to demand four werewolves?

If we end up with 16 or 17 you could probably add another wolf. Or, you could add another role, such as a cobbler- one of my favorite roles.

cobbler His job sucks so bad, he wants to die. The cobbler is on the werewolves team, but is not a werewolf! He doesnt know who the werewolves are, they dont know who he is. The game does not end in a situation where #(werewolves+ cobbler) >= #villagers. The cobbler looks like a villager to the seer. The cobbler is very interesting in that he actually doesnt mind being lynched in many cases, to protect a werewolf from dying. He can also create situations late in the game where he can form a voting block with the remaining werewolf and then block any lunchings from occurring. You can even have cases where the werewolf is trying to convince the cobbler that he is in fact a wolf, or that someone might fake being a cobbler to rat out who the wolf is, so they can then say they arent really a cobbler and lynch them!
Obviously, the cobbler is a strong addition to the werewolf team. I think its a great role for situations where having one more werewolf would be too strong, but without it the werewolves are screwed.

Or you could add a wolf and a cobbler and then add masons to help the village. The people that I play Mafia with often include masons and it really adds a lot to the game.

Masons Two of the villagers are Masons (members of the secret society). Since they are together at night, they know each other are not werewolves. This adds to the game in several ways. It increases the number of people who have information, and thus makes the initial lynchings less random. It also makes two groups of people who will 'defend' each other: the werewolves and the masons.

I wouldn't mind seeing a cobbler and a couple of masons added to the mix the next game.

[mormegil]

If it comes down to the Hunter and one werewolf, who wins? I can see a case for both individuals. How would you settle this?

I know it wasn't directed to me but in this unlikely event I would say that they kill each other off and the town is left desolate.

As for the voting...I slightly favor non-retractable voting but I am fine either way.

To add the other roles such as cobbler or masons I would think that we would need more than 12. I know that's what you were saying phantom but I just wanted to add my bit about it too. It sounds okay I'm not enamoured with the idea but I guess I would need to see it played first to make up my mind.

[Holbytlass]

Whoa...seeing as I chose to be a village cobbler, I'm not saying I am a 'cobbler' (never heard of that secret-role till now) cause, well, I DON"T WANT TO DIE!!

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Hi, just wondering if I could join in! I've played this game in person before (though then it was called "Mafia" and it didn't involve much roleplaying), but never online...so I'm new at this!

If I can play, I'd like to be...a young village girl, I picture her to be someone who has just grown old enough to move out on her own, so 18ish. She could have a fruit/vegetable garden and sell fruits and veggies in a farm-stand-like operation or from a basket during the daytime hours....if that's all right.

If there's a problem with my character/occupation, or if it's too late for me to join in, please let me know!

[The Saucepan Man]

On the question of voting, the majority seem to be in favour of non-retractable votes. That's certainly the camp that I am in. It just seems to me that, if you want to make it clear who you are intending to vote for, but want to reserve the right to change your mind, you can do so without actually casting a vote at that stage. Indecisiveness, therefore, should not be an argument for having retractable votes. The arguments on which team it favours go both ways, although I find Kuru's point that it is more likely to favour the Werewolves more rather compelling. So, the only real justification for having retractable voting that I have seen is Mithalwen's point that some players may have to log-off before the DAY's discussion has really got underway and may be concerned that they will not have a chance to vote later, once more evidence has come out.

On balance, I remain against retractable votes. But, if they are to be allowed, then I think Eomer's idea that the retraction of votes should be discouraged and done only rarely, such as in the circumstances that Mith contemplates, is a good one. Also, once a clear majority is reached, that should most definately be a cut-off point. Really, though, allowing them at all risks them being used willy-nilly (so to speak).

Saucy - a question about the Werewolf Hunter (yeah, another one). If it comes down to the Hunter and one werewolf, who wins? I can see a case for both individuals. How would you settle this?

That would never happen though, since the Werewolves win as soon as their number equals that of the Villagers. So, as soon as the last Villager before the Hunter gets killed off, the Werewolves win.

I have a question, though. Clearly, there is little sense in having the Guardian active during the first NIGHT since he cannot protect the moderator from being killed. But are you proposing that the Seer gets to dream of another Villager on the first NIGHT? I can see arguments both ways. Although it would slightly disadvantage the Werewolves, it would also make the first DAY's discussion slightly less random.

On numbers, I think that (with Azaelia and Firefoot) we have about 13 or 14 players. My understanding from what BW said is that the game should have no more than 19 players. I presume that more than that would tip the game in favour of the Villagers unless an additional Werewolf is added. Also, any more than 19 players and the game will get too long, so I think that should be the cut-off point for players and that we should stick with 3 Werewolves.

Like mormegil, I am not over-keen on the additional roles that the phantom suggests, not for the time being anyway. Since most of us are still pretty new to the game, I think that we should keep it relatively simple for now. More roles would be likely to over-complicate things, at least for my poor simple mind. Perhaps they could be introduced once more of us have got a few more games under our belts.

[Holbytlass]

I don't believe it is too late to join. Eomer will be the judge of that. However, it's great to have freshmeat! Your persona sounds fine, just don't say you're the 'innocent'.

[mormegil]

I have a question, though. Clearly, there is little sense in having the Guardian active during the first NIGHT since he cannot protect the moderator from being killed. But are you proposing that the Seer gets to dream of another Villager on the first NIGHT? I can see arguments both ways. Although it would slightly disadvantage the Werewolves, it would also make the first DAY's discussion slightly less random.

I would argue that the seer should be allowed to dream the first night. Two reasons mainly, the first being as SpM stated that perhaps it will give some direction to the first day's debate. Secondly, it's pathetically obvious that the villagers need all of the help we can get. Plus it's not easy to be the seer. So Eomer if you're looking for votes on that mine is yea.


Edit: just to pound in the point I think it important for all those who are playing to be on invisible mode for the duration of their game. I am currently on in and will stay so until I am done with the game. Whether innocent or guilty I think it important for all to do this, as has been previously stated.

[the phantom]

I think that we should keep it relatively simple for now. More roles would be likely to over-complicate things, at least for my poor simple mind. Perhaps they could be introduced once more of us have got a few more games under our belts.

But Mr. Saucepan, the entire point of this game is to make everyone thoroughly unsure of every little move they make and to cause people to over-analyze every tiny thing the other players do until they can't even think straight and aren't able to sleep at night and start being paranoid about things in real life.

Ah yes- complete confusion and utter paranoia are the ultimate goals of this game, therefore to "over-complicate things" is exactly what we need.

Wouldn't you agree?

[the guy who be short]

Please, spare me the terrible paranoia!
I'm also opposed to the new roles at the moment, simply because I'm playing and it will make it easier for me. After that, do what you will, I'll just be watching and laughing at your poor victims, Phantom.

She could have a fruit/vegetable garden and sell fruits and veggies in a farm-stand-like operation or from a basket during the daytime hours....

But not carrots.

Edit: I'd like to add, my character has a habit of speaking in Old English. Old Westron. You know, old speak.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Azaelia is in.

I am not too fond of the cobbler role (not Holby you understand, I am fond of her ), not least because it confuses me. The masons I am quite intrigued by, but I'm not going to add them to this game. Especially because the current format (even the original format) of Barrow-Downs Werewolf is still so fresh to me and many other participants. So this game is going to be pretty much the same as the last one, only with more players.

The majority have spoken (not that I'm a particular fan of democracy or anything) thus we will be using non-retractable - that is sticky - votes which you cannot afterwards change.

So once a majority has been reached that person will be lynched. However, there will not be a ban on posting after the majority has been reached and before I arrive to put the grim tale into words. If someone wants to offer some thoughts before the lynching then they may do so. Of course, in such situations there may not be much else to say, but the doomed individual can offer some further accusations if he/she so wishes to, before being put to death. Vent your spleen if you wish!

It occured to me that the GMT we post is actually GMT +1 (British Summertime) but don't let that confuse anyone (if I am wrong about that then you'll know it has confused me ). When I post GMT it just means the time in the UK.

Estel let me know that GMT is 6 hours ahead of him. What are the time zones like in the USA? Is there a central time behind EST? Let me know and I'll use it in my posts, and any other time zones you want me to specify.

Registration for this game ends at 4PM GMT today (11AM EST). I will notify all players of their roles shortly after this, and then open the thread for Werewolf 3. The game is to be played solely on that thread.

The first DAY will begin at around 6PM GMT (1PM EST). So I'll maybe see you in the morning....


*Remember that you can usually ask questions about the game on this thread. If there's anything else then don't hesitate to ask or let me know.*

[Celuien]

I wish I could play in this game, but my schedule is going to be somewhat erratic for the next two weeks so I can't. Please put me down for the first round after June 18, if there's one planned.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Ah yes- complete confusion and utter paranoia are the ultimate goals of this game, therefore to "over-complicate things" is exactly what we need.

I don't disagree. But there are more than sufficient ingredients for confusion and paranoia for my tastes for the time being. After all, I have only actually played one full day so far ...

[Oddwen]

Two gardeners in the same village, eh Zali? Er, hmm...must be some friendly competition there?

I probably won't be able to be online at all on Sundays, so don't judge me because of that.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Well Oddwen, if you do have a special role then be alert on Saturday nite, yes?

To note, anyone who has made allusions to probable erratic internet hours will not automatically be given an ordinary villager role. So don't make any accusations based on that. And if one werewolf doesn't show up then remember that the other two will have to decide on their own.

Saucy, on one of the links Oddwen provided, someone said that if it comes down to the Werewolf Hunter and a werewolf, then the Hunter does get to make his allowed kill, and thus wins. This does go against the equal numbers proposition that is so basic to the game. I will stick with that basic proposition; so the Hunter does not necessarily get to kill.

And remember, because I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this yet, make yourself invisible.

Getting closer.....

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Another thing: make sure there's space in your PM box. If it is full and I cannot contact you then you may not be able to play. If you realise this after the DAY has started then there may still be time. PM me to make sure, but it is likely that you won't be able to play.


Edit to add: the phantom is, of course, welcome to choose any role he likes. How about town crier? That seems like a giggle...If you already chose one and I missed it then sorry.

[the guy who be short]

Two gardeners in the same village, eh Zali? Er, hmm...must be some friendly competition there?

Buy my carrots! They're more poetic!

I should also add I'm in the middle of a few exams, so I might also be on fairly erratically. I should, however, have enough spare time for this to not matter.
Stop looking at me like that! I revise lots! I just deserve some leisure time too...

[The Saucepan Man]

And remember, because I'm not sure anyone has mentioned this yet, make yourself invisible.

I can still see Firefoot ...

Don't forget to make yoursefl invisible too, Eomer, if you haven't done so already.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I figured the game would start with a DAY.

It is only after the villagers stumble upon a grisly surprise that the seer will have reason to dream of his/her fellows.

[Firefoot]

I can still see Firefoot ...

I was getting there.

[the guy who be short]

Now I know what the people used to the game mean about staying awake at night! I spent most of last night trying to gather my thoughts. Plus I stayed debating until 12pm.

I would also add that Werewolf helped me in my maths revision and finally let me get my head around some very difficult notions.