Riddles in the Downs

[Galadriel55]

My apologies, I have quite forgotten about this. This one is inspired by some of my favourite Hui riddles.



Made by the last of the house of the eldest,
Sent to the bearer of shining shield,
Given to maker of water vessels,
Passed to one who went far afield,
Followed the siblings going westward,
Never to enemy was revealed.

[Urwen]

The third line makes me think it's the ring Narya. Made by Celebrimbor, then given to Gil-Galad, who gave it to Cirdan, who gave it to Gandalf, who traveleed west with (among others) Elladan and Elrohir, I think. And it wasn't revealed until Sauron was gone.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

The third line makes me think it's the ring Narya. Made by Celebrimbor, then given to Gil-Galad, who gave it to Cirdan, who gave it to Gandalf, who traveleed west with (among others) Elladan and Elrohir, I think. And it wasn't revealed until Sauron was gone.

Narya is correct. "Siblings going westward" are Nenya and Vilya.

[Urwen]

*comes out of woodwork*

Here is another poetic one, because why not?

Named for the stream
Died due to the enemy's whim
A remnant of the joyful past
The first to die, but not the last

Hunter in the woods, predator and prey
His path would lead him astray
Great fighter on thе plain
Undone by his disdain

Memories lost in the dark
Until they were brought back by a spark
He was too late
Watching as she met her fate

She stayed for a long time
Against reason and rhyme
Unconquered until the last
At dusk she faded fast

He saw her go, undefeated she stayed
And his decisions couldn't be swayed
Near the mountain he had cried
By the water he had died

Someone try this. It's easy, I swear.

[Huinesoron]

Much like Bilbo, I fear you have given yourself away, o Spirit of Nen Lalaith - it would have been much harder to connect your namesake to a river if your brand new title wasn't right next to it. ^_^ I think this is the ill-fated House of Hurin, from first to last:

Lalaith was lovely until the plague took her and made everyone moody.

Turin was an absolute menace; "the woods" is the outlaws, "the plain" is the battles outside Nargothrond, and his disdain is... I mean, a lot of things, but probably when he defiantly met Glaurung's eyes and got frozen for his trouble. He didn't die second, but someone thought he did.

Nienor comes next with her lost memories. "He" here is Brandir, because Turin didn't actually see her die.

Then comes Morwen Elfsheen, lingering bitterly on until she died by the Stone, with her husband refusing to talk to her because I don't know why, Hurin, do you have no heart at all??!!?!

And last is presumably Hurin, who wrote his wife's name on their children's grave ("she stayed") and went off to destroy every kingdom his son hadn't gotten round to. Between them they bring down Nargothrond, Brethil, Doriath, and contribute to the fall of Gondolin. They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down. Absolute pair of menaces.

I'm actually not sure where Hurin died - didn't he chuck himself in the sea or something? Probably a good thing, can you imagine if he'd ended up at the Havens? He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Much like Bilbo, I fear you have given yourself away, o Spirit of Nen Lalaith - it would have been much harder to connect your namesake to a river if your brand new title wasn't right next to it. ^_^ I think this is the ill-fated House of Hurin, from first to last:

Lalaith was lovely until the plague took her and made everyone moody.

Turin was an absolute menace; "the woods" is the outlaws, "the plain" is the battles outside Nargothrond, and his disdain is... I mean, a lot of things, but probably when he defiantly met Glaurung's eyes and got frozen for his trouble. He didn't die second, but someone thought he did.

Nienor comes next with her lost memories. "He" here is Brandir, because Turin didn't actually see her die.

Then comes Morwen Elfsheen, lingering bitterly on until she died by the Stone, with her husband refusing to talk to her because I don't know why, Hurin, do you have no heart at all??!!?!

And last is presumably Hurin, who wrote his wife's name on their children's grave ("she stayed") and went off to destroy every kingdom his son hadn't gotten round to. Between them they bring down Nargothrond, Brethil, Doriath, and contribute to the fall of Gondolin. They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down. Absolute pair of menaces.

I'm actually not sure where Hurin died - didn't he chuck himself in the sea or something? Probably a good thing, can you imagine if he'd ended up at the Havens? He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS

Well, yea. The title inspired that one...well, the title and this...don't tell anyone, though.

But actually, the 'undone by his disdain' line means he killed himself.

It's yours.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

He'd have clonked Tuor round the head with his staff and gotten a whack from The Wrench in return, and before you know it, clan war in Sirion.

hS

But also...all hail the Wrench!

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

They probably finished off Dor-lomin as well, by inciting whatserface to burn it all down.

Her name is Aerin, and they didn't incite her. She did it all by herself.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Her name is Aerin, and they didn't incite her. She did it all by herself.

After Turin came there and incited a revolt which basically made it impossible for any Hadorian to continue their existence the way it was before due to the fear of reprocussions. He created a situation which forced people into action they may not have otherwise chosen or wanted to take.

[Urwen]

Well, they are cursed, by a Vala, to be fair.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, they are cursed, by a Vala, to be fair.

Hey, I got a lot of sympathy for the Hin - and for the parents, - and I am less inclined than Hui to blame them for the destruction they unwittingly brought about. Their story makes me sad, not angry. But specifically in Dor-lomin, Turin was indeed trying to impose his own philosophy on a system with a very fragile balance, and while there is no right answer in that plight (do you proudly die fighting as a people? Or live an abased life to allow your people to perhaps persevere and see another day at the end of it) - it is not a stranger's call to make on behalf of the people who are actually suffering the consequences of either of the options. He forced their hand in a way he didn't force anyone else's hand in his long line of unlucky tribulations.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

Hey, I got a lot of sympathy for the Hin - and for the parents, - and I am less inclined than Hui to blame them for the destruction they unwittingly brought about. Their story makes me sad, not angry. But specifically in Dor-lomin, Turin was indeed trying to impose his own philosophy on a system with a very fragile balance, and while there is no right answer in that plight (do you proudly die fighting as a people? Or live an abased life to allow your people to perhaps persevere and see another day at the end of it) - it is not a stranger's call to make on behalf of the people who are actually suffering the consequences of either of the options. He forced their hand in a way he didn't force anyone else's hand in his long line of unlucky tribulations.

Hm, maybe I should move this to another topic, like tidbits of curiosity, to avoid clogging up this thread.

[Urwen]

New riddle?

[Huinesoron]

It's been... a bit of a week. I tried to do something on about the seventh, but it just didn't come.

Thankfully, this one did:

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill.

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten.

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter.

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us.

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it--
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called?

hS

[Urwen]

Well, at first glance, I'd say Eomer, but not all lines seem to fit...

Unless...well, the riddle says the speaker is not Turin, but it never says the speaker is male. And, well, each of his sisters has a sister too, and they share parents...

So I'd say they're both speaking, with alternating lines.

[Urwen]

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill. - Nienor speaks this one

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten. - Morwen

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter. - Hurin

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us. - same speaker from the first stanza

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it it--Well, Urwen rejected her fate of being held by Morgoth's curse by seeking refuge with Eru beyond the circles of the world.
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called? - Nienor and Urwen, of course.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Well, at first glance, I'd say Eomer, but not all lines seem to fit...

I am not Eomer.

Originally Posted by Urwen

Unless...well, the riddle says the speaker is not Turin, but it never says the speaker is male. And, well, each of his sisters has a sister too, and they share parents...

So I'd say they're both speaking, with alternating lines.

And this is very very clever, I'm really impressed... but I'm not Nielainielwen either, sorry. (Nor is it any other clever way of making the lines about Hurin and Morwen and their kids, I'm afraid.)

hS

[Urwen]

*looks up Mannish family trees* It could be that person...Ar-Adunakhor or whatever he was called before...He has no sister, though...


There is also Faramir and Boromir, but they have no sister either...

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

*looks up Mannish family trees* It could be that person...Ar-Adunakhor or whatever he was called before...He has no sister, though...


There is also Faramir and Boromir, but they have no sister either...

It is not. Boromir and Faramir come closest in time and geography to the right answer.

There is only a single speaker.

hS

[Urwen]

Denethor is specifically described as 'grim' later in life. However, both of his sisters are unnamed, and therefore, we don't know whether their names are 'altered'.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Denethor is specifically described as 'grim' later in life. However, both of his sisters are unnamed, and therefore, we don't know whether their names are 'altered'.

Not Denethor. I also didn't look at the Books while writing this, so there's no clever word use I'm afraid.

hS

[Galadriel55]

I get a bit of a Minas Anor / Minas Ithil vibe from some of the lines - two sisters, renamed when bad stuff happened, children of Elendil&Sons - but everything Minas Tirith touches doesn't turn ill, Elendil and Isildur are neither bound nor any longer in the north at the time of the remaining, and what mother is there to speak of.

[Urwen]

So it's someone whose name can be translated into 'grim face', right? Since you didn't look at the books?

[Pervinca Took]

Could it be Turgon?

No ... not a ruler of men. And the mother bit doesn't fit.

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Pervinca Took

Could it be Turgon?

No ... not a ruler of men. And the mother bit doesn't fit.

Actually, a Turgon is a Steward of Gondor.

[Pervinca Took]

I wonder if the people are personifications of rivers.

The mother could be the main river, the 'I' and the sister tributaries of her.

The father could be frozen up, (bound), in the north, and bitter to experience?

The changes could have been caused by the War of Wrath?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Galadriel55

I get a bit of a Minas Anor / Minas Ithil vibe from some of the lines - two sisters, renamed when bad stuff happened, children of Elendil&Sons - but everything Minas Tirith touches doesn't turn ill, Elendil and Isildur are neither bound nor any longer in the north at the time of the remaining, and what mother is there to speak of.

Ooh, this comes so close. But I am not Minas Tirith, and neither Elendil nor Isildur are my father.

Actually, between this and Pervinca's "personifications" comment, I'm happy to confirm that there are no actual people in the riddle (other than the Men who were ruled... and I guess Turin, though he's only there in the negative).

Originally Posted by Urwen

So it's someone whose name can be translated into 'grim face', right? Since you didn't look at the books?

You give me too much credit. "Grim" is just a descriptive word, no hidden meanings.

(Now you've got me trying to translate "grim face" into Quenya... )

hS

[Urwen]

Minas Ithil, then? With Anarion as the 'father'?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Minas Ithil, then? With Anarion as the 'father'?

Hmm, what was the precise question? Right - no, I am not called "Minas Ithil".

(And the father is not a person, so cannot be Anarion.)

hS

PS: "Thîrvalch" would be Sindarin for "fierce face"; that's about as close to 'grim' as I can get.

[Urwen]

Are you called 'Minas Morgul', then?

With Minas Tirith as 'sister', and Osgiliath as 'father'?

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Are you called 'Minas Morgul', then?

With Minas Tirith as 'sister', and Osgiliath as 'father'?

Once I was young, filled with hope and joy--
Now my face is grim, and all I touch turns to ill.
Once I was filled with moonglow; now I am infused with fell sorcery.

Once my mother was proud and noble--
Now she is fallen, her grace forgotten.
Once Osgiliath stood proud astride Anduin; now she lies ruined.

Once I was the child of a great ruler of men--
Now my father sits in the north, bound and bitter.
Once I was offspring of Numenor; now I am ruled by Barad-dur.

Once I had a sister, bright and fair--
Now my sister's name is altered, and woe lies between us.
Once Minas Anor was my sister; now she is Minas Tirith, and we are foes.

Once my name was fair, but to change my fate I reject it--
Now - since I was never Turin - what am I called?
Once I was Minas Ithil of the moon; now MINAS MORGUL is my name.

Very good! I enjoyed making the tragedy of the (Other) Two Towers sound so much like that of the Children of Hurin. I'm still not sure whether I should have left it open for you to just guess Turin at the start, but it worked. Over to you, and well done everyone!

hS

[Urwen]

Thanks! I enjoyed that one!

Now for a much less elegant one

Listen to my tale of woe
Of wrath and ruin, a tale untold
It happened long ago
In the realm where we had a stronghold

Two children I called my own
Both shared the same fate
One lies under the cold stone
The other died with her mate

The first one fled, defying our will
For she couldn't be contained
She condemned herself, for good for ill
And in this land she remained

The second one left us too
Retribution he sought
From one place to the next he'd go
Against the fate he fought

Now they're both gone
Along with my own mate
And now I weep all alone
The ones I loved met their fate

To the lands where I used to dwell
I shall now return
I bid the ones I loved farewell
Let the land they died in burn!

[Huinesoron]

Hmm. Other than one word, it sounds like Hurin. He only knew two of his children: Lalaith, who died at home after being an uncontainably joyful child, and Turin, who died with his mate, Nienor, after roaming around fighting fate and seeking retribution. Even the last stanza fits Hurin - "the land they died in" refers to the burning of Brethil, while he returned to both Hithlum and Gondolin (or tried to) after his release.

But the line says "The other died with her mate", which makes this child "the first" who fled and remained in "this land". Lalaith didn't die with anyone.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Hmm. Other than one word, it sounds like Hurin. He only knew two of his children: Lalaith, who died at home after being an uncontainably joyful child, and Turin, who died with his mate, Nienor, after roaming around fighting fate and seeking retribution. Even the last stanza fits Hurin - "the land they died in" refers to the burning of Brethil, while he returned to both Hithlum and Gondolin (or tried to) after his release.

But the line says "The other died with her mate", which makes this child "the first" who fled and remained in "this land". Lalaith didn't die with anyone.

hS

Oh, close, but not quite there yet. If it helps, the speaker is unlikely to utter the last line, but I wrote it based on [speaker]'s actions. Also, you're right in that Turin is one of the 'children', but neither Hurin nor Lalaith are involved. (Although Hurin might be a mite bit involved, since it was his actions which brought about [that event].)

[Huinesoron]

Ahh. I guess Their Majesties of Doriath officially fostered Turin? In which case you are Melian, talking in turn about Luthien and Turin, and how after Thingol's death you ran off to Valinor and left Doriath to be destroyed. Twice.

hS

[Urwen]

Originally Posted by Huinesoron

Ahh. I guess Their Majesties of Doriath officially fostered Turin? In which case you are Melian, talking in turn about Luthien and Turin, and how after Thingol's death you ran off to Valinor and left Doriath to be destroyed. Twice.

hS

Precisely.

[Huinesoron]

Nice one; nice misdirection!

And now for something much shorter:


Between a star in the water

and a star in the water

A song in the water

but whose was the voice?

hS

[Urwen]

Methinks that the first line or the second line is referencing Numenor.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Urwen

Methinks that the first line or the second line is referencing Numenor.

Very nice thought, but no, and no.

hS

[Galadriel55]

Numenor was a darn good guess... Thinking of other stars in waters, how about - between Kheled Zaram and the Mirror of Galadriel, you have the Nimrodel stream - ie Nimrodel for answer?