WW LXXIX: Fall From Olympus

[Lalaith]

Greenie and phantom bicker, Rikae and phantom banter, oh my it's good to be back.

Sally, I know what you mean about feeling useless though. You actually worry me less today than you did yesterday.

Who has posted so far today? It seems like the focus has been on just a handful of players....it feels like a smaller village than it should be.

Also, the MM. I don't want to sound like I've got a bee in my bonnet but you do all realise there is just under a one in 4.5 chance that we now have five wolves?

[Keeper of Dol Guldur]

Originally Posted by Boro

Rest assured you still know me quite well, thanks dear. Now, if I know you well, hopefully you read this ere the night ends, and hopefully it doesn't confuse you. Don't hestitate to pick me, sorry for any trouble, I gotta know.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Um... what? I have no clue what he's saying there, but it looks like he's up to something or other. Any thoughts Mira?

I somehow completely missed this.

Well as far as not confusing me, he did an awful job. As for the "ere the night ends" bit, if I didn't know any better I'd suspect he thought I had a role that would be able to protect him. Unfortunately he overestimated me.

Side note: I haven't actually read anything beyond phantom's Boro post yet. Once I shower and get some food in me I'll finish catching up before work.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Where did he hint at such a thing? Boro specifically said to Mac that there were intentions in his first post, but-

That seems rather a stupid thing to say if he was indeed trying to hint at Zeus's identity.

Well, now as you mention that. I have been wondering all a long why no one looks at the obvious connection of what the other part is - which is Hera of course.

"Be allied to wolves, be allied to lovers, be allied to Zeus" - who is it but Hera?

And I did notice tp nicely overlooked that interpretation in his otherwise thorough-looking close-reading of Boro's posting.

Or am I just unable to see something you all see?

[A Little Green]

LEANING INNOCENT:

Wilwa - Hasn't done anything to merit suspicion. That is to say, other than casting an apologetic-toned vote for BG. I didn't like that vote, but I'm not sure if it's wolvish or not.

Lottie - I'm inclined to believe her innocent at the moment, though I'd be happier with her if she explained why she's so convinced of Tum's furriness, and suspicious of Mac and Nog.

Nerwen - If she's a wolf I'll eat my hat. I know she has fooled me totally before, but right now I have no reason to suspect her. She's making way too much sense (though sure Nerwolf is capable of that too) and just generally not bothering to try to rub people the right way.

Rikae - Right now I'm more inclined to think she's innocent. As I wrote those words, though, I got the feeling that she's grinning an evil grin right now. Werewolf makes me paranoid.

NO GREAT IMPRESSION TO EITHER DIRECTION:

Kath - Too little data for me to say this or that. She was the first to vote BG, and did so because she wanted to go for somebody quiet and thought BG was the least constructive of the quiet ones. Really, that could go either way - it's understandable (if easy) reasoning for an innocent, but also smooth for a wolf.

Inzil - Is posting relatively actively but I have no read on him whatsoever. I think this has happened before. He's a strong candidate for the one I'm reading through if I have time, as I have no idea about him.

Nienna - I have a similar problem with her as with Inzil - I just have no read on her. I'd love to have a closer look at her if I have time.

Folwren - Again, I've seen too little of her to judge properly. Nothing that would stand out as wolvish.

autume - Inzil's analysis of her looked pretty bad. But then again, she's pretty new (I assume; I've never played with her before) and all the inconsistence might be just due to that. Not sure. I'd like to know Lottie's arguments against her.

Lalaith - Is sensible and sweet (the latter might be partly due to the cute avvie, though!) to the point of being scary. I have no idea about her. Another I'd love to check.

Shasta - Falls into the "too little data" -category.

Sally - Again, too little of substance to go on with. Doesn't look like a Sallywolf this far, though.

TOO MANY IMPRESSIONS AKA CAUSES A HEADACHE:

Mira - Hmm. I didn't like her vote (the 5th for BG), she stated quite openly she votes her for reasons other than actual suspicion:

Originally Posted by Mirakeeperwhatever :p

Who I probably will be voting for toDay unless something better comes up within the next hour or so:
Blind Guardian - don't be posting that you want people to provide you with substance and then don't do anything to spark discussion.

I understand the frustration, but still - we're supposed to be looking for wolves, aren't we? Boro's hint to her was really confusing, as it implied that she had a protective role. Now it's possible that he dreamed of her, but I see a couple of problems in that. Firstly, he must have been the false Seer or she must have missed the hint because obviously she didn't protect him; and secondly, it doesn't make sense for the Seer to make such a show of being the Seer just for the sake of getting someone to protect them for the next Night (when, had they kept their mouth shut about being the Seer, they wouldn't have needed protection in the first place). If anyone has any idea whatsoever of this whole confusing Mira-business, I'd be very interested to hear it as my own don't make the slightest bit of sense.

Eonwe - Another who keeps messing with my head. My gut says innocent, but some of the stuff that's going on about him.. Still, I'm more inclined to find him innocent than not. I'll put him down as headache-causing though anyway.

Nog - Argh. I disagree with most of what he says and some of his arguments are just way off. For possibly the first time in our common ww history, though, I'm not especially suspicious of him. His sudden jump on Mac still looks bad, though. It didn't look wolf-on-wolf to me, it was too random and too sudden to serve any purpose that I can think of. If Mac isn't a wolf I'll look harder on Nog; if Mac is a wolf, I'm just baffled. He messes with my head enough to make it to this category, though.

Phantom - He's either not a wolf, or else my initial thought was correct and he is, in fact, Hera. Right now I'm more inclined to think the former.

LEANING GUILTY:

Mac - Like I believe I said previously, I will vote for him toDay unless something dramatic happens before I go to bed. The lead I have on him is, after all, rather better founded than my suspicion of anyone else.


EDIT: Ouch x-ed since phantom's 353, you people post way too fast!

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Nog

Well, now as you mention that. I have been wondering all a long why no one looks at the obvious connection of what the other part is - which is Hera of course.

"Be allied to wolves, be allied to lovers, be allied to Zeus" - who is it but Hera?

And I did notice tp nicely overlooked that interpretation in his otherwise thorough-looking close-reading of Boro's posting.

Or am I just unable to see something you all see?

*coughmyfirstposttoDaycough*

[the phantom]

Oh... my... God... Nog. I'm seriously about to strangle you.

You just completely repeated what's already been done today with Greenie and I!! Did you entirely skip our posts, or do you just hope that by bringing it up again Boro's posts will magically change to fit your view?

Once again, I repeat, Boro specifically explained that first post by saying that he had not been looking at the roles/affiliations carefully (due to the fact that it was 5 in the morning) and he mistakenly believed that Zeus was on the side of the village (i.e. allied with Zeus meant innocent).

Do I need to post his quote again?

Originally Posted by Boro

As for my Zeus remarks, I legit figured since he is my ultimate God of Gods (and sans the Disney version reviled the wench Hera) he was a defacto good guy. Wasn't thinking that indepth at 5:30 AM when I have important deliveries to run.

If the regular part of the statement wasn't clear enough for you, note the part inside brackets specifically mentions Zeus being in OPPOSITION to Hera!

If you're going to use his post to suspect me, you can't decide to ignore what he says later about his post. He knew he was a Seer, and thus knew we'd be looking back at his words should he die. Your case is so completely and obviously flawed (when Greenie made it she was honest enough to admit she didn't have great faith in it). To put it forth a second time like this sounds downright desperate, as if you came into the day with the plan of turning attention onto me.

And as for Rikae-

Originally Posted by Rikae

I would not put so much stock in Boro having said that; he was defending himself at that point, after all.

Don't put stock in what Boro says, but still use his words as a basis of suspicion? How convenient.

[Nogrod]

Another short notice... so you guys think I'm overstretching when finding Nerwen to have hinted of being Hades? Looking at phantom and Greenie doing their stuff toDay... well you're really doing it!

Phantom's building of the Hades-hints looks pretty much a collection of fabricated and off-their relation picked things, but still Greenie picked on it saying:

Originally Posted by Greenie

I was pretty sure yesterDay that Mac was Hades (a big part of why I voted for him in the first place), but didn't want to say it because I kind of hoped against all hope that Persephone had failed to notice what I did (a big part of why I voted for him with such flimsy reasons instead of my real ones). That obviously doesn't matter anymore now that all his possible Hades hints are out in the open anyway.

Okay one reason to my reaction: I actually agreed yesterDay - and do so toDay - on what Mac said, that you really can make the argument that Nerwen is a wolf becasue of her Hades-stuff. It is a point worth noticing, but hardly a call for Persephone to look at him.

Another reason: most of us commented on the lovers and our need to find any hints they would desperately need to make - I was probably one of the most loud on that. So why pick Mac as someone who had an obsession with it - or pick up somethig like "we need to look at hints" as especially suspicious. We need to look at hints, and I believe many said that.

And that "gives up" -part - as another second-language speaker I see that as a bit over the top. Really. Also being alone - with his opinion on that subject matter? Right?

I don't believe I'm taking such a strong defencive stance on Mac but no can do as your efforts in making him look like Hades look much more evil. Which doesn't mean I think he's innocent by definition.

But you two could be Hera and Zeus actually? Trying to help Nerwen (eg. the real Hades)? How would that sound to you guys?

[Loslote]

Originally Posted by A Little Green

Do you have reasons for these, or are they just gut-feelings? The following is what I found for your suspicion of Mac:I don't like that logic (insofar as saying someone is "feeling slightly off" includes a logic), especially as I think it appeared only after I voiced some suspicion about Mac. The same goes for Nog, actually - the way he jumped on my suspicion of Mac was fishy and quite uncharacteristical of him. (Usually he doesn't trust a word I say!) It made me think worse of him and better of Mac, actually.

Yeah, I do. Mac was acting funny all Day, then when people started to point that out, he "gives up". This seems like he realized he had no excuse. The Hades argument makes a lot of sense to me, but I will freely admit, I had not put a god's name to my suspicion of him - just that I thought he was a wolf.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Could be he dreamed of Mira, for instance, in which case he could also still be the false seer (indeed, probably would, because he seems to have thought Mira was a ranger, and she seems not to have been, or at least, not to have protected him.)

This seems like the most likely of the theories of who Boro dreamed.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Don't like people picking on my sweetie so much. He hasn't played in a long time, so let's not lynch him on Day 2, shall we? Especially when we have two major leads pointing in the direction of Steve and... helllo Almighty Phantom!

What major leads?

As for Tum and Nog, I still don't like them.

Nog helped spearhead the Cursed!Steve theory, but called for the village to leave him be. As a wolf, if he thought Steve was not the Cursed, this is ingenius. Not only would this effectively isolate an innocent from all the other innocents, if the wolves did turn the real Cursed, we'd lynch Steve, not the Cursed.

EDIT: xed with people and, once again, I'm not really here yet, and I probably won't be for a long while yet.

[Nogrod]

I saw the posts by tp and Greenie I x'd with... okay, sorry, must have read your early rant carelessly.

I'm not sure I totally buy tp's explanation though, but actually it doesn't matter that much. And arguing about would be a waste of time to be honest as we have no Boro left to tell us how it actually was...

But I'm really curious about phantom's motives behind the way he tried to frame Mac as making Hades hints - and Greenie's immediate usage of it...

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Loslote

I'm not really here yet, and I probably won't be for a long while yet.

Same with me. I thought of just making a few quick remarks and come back later... and it took what, an hour. Well the time of "the later" just got postponed a bit...

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Nog

But I'm really curious about phantom's motives behind the way he tried to frame Mac as making Hades hints - and Greenie's immediate usage of it...

I wasn't framing him. I was stating what stood out to me, and at the bottom I definitely left it open to other interpretations, and I asked Mac personally if he could help me answer the question. The fact is I was leaning towards believing that Mac was not Hades, but up to something entirely different, and was trying to give him a chance to hint me to it (to confirm what I was thinking). It remains to be seen whether or not I was right.

And sorry, but I can't answer for Greenie. If you think we're Zeus and Hera, you're wrong. And just a minute ago weren't you saying I was Hera? It looks to me like you're determined one way or another to go at me, once again giving me the feeling that you came into the day with a plan to try and float me as a lynching target.

But since your new theory has me as Zeus, if you wished to test the theory I assume you'd try to lynch Hera first, yes? If that's the case, go ahead. Feel free. I have no special bond with any other player. And if Greenie turns out to be innocent, then what? Go back to Day 1 and attempt to misuse Boro's words on another unrelated party? I mean, keep in mind looking at his words I am clearly not Zeus, but you've formed a theory despite that where I am, and then assuming that false assumption is correct you build upon it and attempt to identify Hera.

This seems like a totally insane way to try and use the dead Seer's words. Not to mention the very obvious fact that he may be the false Seer and thus your false reasoning is based on false information to begin with.

I stated at the end of yesterday that I was not agreeing with your logic and reasoning at all this game, and I see that it has continued into today. If given the chance I would definitely try taking a shot at you with the lynch today.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Here and reading. I need to get some food, though, so I should be back soonish.

So far, it seems there's three leading theories as to Boro's Night 1 dream -

- Phantom as Hera/Zeus
- Eonwe as a wolf
- Mira as a ranger

Now, given Boro's off the wall comment to Mira yesterday, and his comment about Eonwe being a 'negative four', I'm leaning towards theory 1 (Phantom = Hera/Zeus) as the least likely of the three. However, if it was theory 3, then I think Boro was likely to be the False Seer, as I think Mira is smart enough to pick up on a hint like that and thus protect him if she actually is a ranger.

And I will say right now I don't like Eonwe's 'If I was a wolf, why would I do that?' defense. At all.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by the phantom

Don't put stock in what Boro says, but still use his words as a basis of suspicion? How convenient.

Way to oversimplify things. Why should we take what Boro said under pressure, in self-defense, more seriously than what he put in a post that we know contained hints, early in the day when he could essentially say whatever he liked?

- still reading -

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And sorry, but I can't answer for Greenie. If you think we're Zeus and Hera, you're wrong. And just a minute ago weren't you saying I was Hera? But since your new theory has me as Zeus

Why? Couldn't I still cling on that very same belief? Maybe Boro got scared of his hints and tried to get you off his trail with his later remarks feeling safe enough not to die in the village of 20+ on N1 (not making it)?

Anyway, that was just to test you (and Greenie) with something that actually crossed my mind but which I considered rather too nice to be true. But I must say the results are quite interesting... You're waay too touchy. And really, others have a license to toy around as well.

Just remember, there are what, twenty players and only one basic ordo. You shouldn't be the one who must be reminded we all have some hidden agendas. And you're not the only one pursuing some goal other than which meets the eye.

It looks to me like you're determined one way or another to go at me, once again giving me the feeling that you came into the day with a plan to try and float me as a lynching target.

That was nowhere near my plan, unless you give me reasons for it for coming Days. I'm still leaning on Nerwen and/or Eonwë, but I'll try to come up with some fresher thoughts a bit later as it is sadly true that most talk has revolved around just a few people and that seldom is healthy.

X'd with Rikae

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Back with food, and no one seems to have posted... Well. I may have to vote extremely early today as I'm being kidnapped later... so let's see.

Regarding Mac's Hades-hints - I'm not sure I buy Rikae's explanation of them (and the fact that she leapt to said defense bothers me a little). Did Mac ever explain them himself? They looked legit to me - I don't really see them being accidental. I probably couldn't have come up with better ones, so that Rikae seems to be blaming at least one of them on the fact that Mac's second language is English hits me as rather far-fetched. So that's where I'm at on Mac right now... and I have to wonder if Rikae wouldn't boldly defend Mac even if they were wolves together. At least one wolf has no lover - that wolf I could see making a bold play since they have less to lose than their partners.

I do also want to look at Nogrod before I leave for the day. My vote will likely be on one of Mac or Nog.

[Eönwë]

Ok, I've finally caught up with the thread, but I think I should probably do a list before anything else, because this is getting even more confusing than I thought it would be...

[Nienna]

Greenie – Day One is particularly hard to find wolves. So I know personally I voted to kill the person who I thought would be detrimental to the village. I could have voted someone else (a possible wolf) but could have much more easily gotten an important gifted and since I didn’t have any idea who the wolves were I wasn’t willing to risk it.

Phantom – getting defensive toward Greenie but it seems more like innocent defensive than wolf defensive . He seems to be making logical sense. He can stay.

Rikae – keeping up the pet names for Mac a little stronger than is normal for her in a game. I’m actually trying to remember if she has ever done it before when they play together a lot.

I’m getting good vibes from Sally. I can usually read her pretty well so that’s a plus.

Shasta is making sense… in his 372 post at least. I am in agreement that those the three most likely theories and that Mira is probably not the Ranger. I’m also not feeling Phantom as Zeus or Hera. And I agree that Steve’s defense looks weak.

Nog seems to be saying a really lot but he’s not imprinting any impressions on me.

Mac I have no real feelings on either way. He doesn’t seem particularly furry to me or particularly innocent. It’ll be interesting to see what comes out of this recent suspicion surrounding him.

Greenie for some reason is rubbing me the wrong way. I’m not sure why.

Tum’s BG vote looks very suspicious if for timing alone. That’d be a perfect time for a wolf to slip a vote in. Zil’s, however, doesn’t look fabulous either, as he made the bandwagon a possibility and started the ball rolling. I also (as I mentioned at the time) don’t like his reasoning.

Those are my thoughts so far as I read through the day. I know others posted but it didn’t really seem worth mentioning.

[Rikae]

Shasta - I pretty much always have the impulse to defend people when I think they're being suspected based on some aspect of their personality, style, etc. In this case, Mac's "my opinion, which it's frustrating to be alone with," is of course perfectly fine English, but the fact that this wasn't really a common way of phrasing it, and that it would make the part I bolded jump out at people as a possible hint, might not have occurred to him. Meta, but I've proofread a lot of (RL) stuff for him and I think I have a pretty good idea of what he might innocently say.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Way to oversimplify things. Why should we take what Boro said under pressure, in self-defense, more seriously than what he put in a post that we know contained hints, early in the day when he could essentially say whatever he liked?

You people are acting like you've never seen Boro as the Seer before. He knows how to work his posts together, and what not to say if he desires a certain path to be taken, and what you're describing is not like him at all. If he truly found someone guilty it was Steve, and I'm not completely on board with that even seeing as Boro may be false and it's also possible he wished only to ping the WW radar via his Seer hints rather than actually identifying a baddie (which is the thing that truly matters when it comes to whether or not the WWs try to kill you).

Originally Posted by Nog

You're waay too touchy.

And again I wish to strangle you. In my Werewolfing career, every... single.... time I am innocent and come under heavy suspicion based upon bad reasoning I respond exactly like this, and every... single.... time someone has said I'm being suspiciously touchy.

Guess what? They haven't been right yet, and you aren't this time either.

I'm not touchy- I'm annoyed at the fact that multiple people are taking such flimsy stuff and stubbornly pushing forward in the wrong direction. It's just about all I can do to keep from accusing you all of being in cahoots.

Mac, sir- any serious answer yet to that question I asked you way back when, or did you in fact already give it?

[A Little Green]

I buy that you missed the early conversation between phantom and me. As for your arguments, I'll try to answer them. I don't necessarily think you are a wolf, I just think you're way off the wall.

Originally Posted by Nog

Okay one reason to my reaction: I actually agreed yesterDay - and do so toDay - on what Mac said, that you really can make the argument that Nerwen is a wolf becasue of her Hades-stuff. It is a point worth noticing, but hardly a call for Persephone to look at him.

You can make that argument, yes. I don't buy it. I believe Nerwen is far subtler than that - it just wouldn't sound like her at all to scream "Hades" in her first post if she was in fact Hades who wanted Persephone's attention. (A bit similar to why I didn't quite buy your theory of a Dionysus-Eonwe screaming "Dionysus"...) What I was thinking was that Nerwen was Persephone who, for some insane reason, screamed "Hades" in her first post (possibly to imply to Hades that she's waiting for a hint, or else she was confused about the rules and didn't know Hades knew her identity) - and Mac-Hades, knowing her identity of course, responded with this:

Originally Posted by Mac

You could make a similar case for Nerwen's "what the Hades is going on". If I were Persephone, I'd know who to pick first now.

Even if Nerwen isn't Persephone (and her and Mac's interactions from yesterDay don't exactly point at that direction), I don't think it's too far-fetched to interpret that quote as a Hades-hint. That was the first thing I thought of when I read it yesterDay. The second arguable Hades-hint is as follows:

Originally Posted by Mac

In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".

I'm not sure about this one, not sure at all. It did make me raise my eyebrows a bit, but I might not have noticed it at all if I hadn't already had the suspicion that he is Hades.

Originally Posted by Nog

Another reason: most of us commented on the lovers and our need to find any hints they would desperately need to make - I was probably one of the most loud on that. So why pick Mac as someone who had an obsession with it - or pick up somethig like "we need to look at hints" as especially suspicious. We need to look at hints, and I believe many said that.

And that "gives up" -part - as another second-language speaker I see that as a bit over the top. Really.

I agree with Nog on these two, I think they are a bit too far off and I certainly did not see them as Hades hints. I still don't. I also agree with you that phantom's reaction to your (admittedly off-the-wall) attack was odd.

Originally Posted by Nog

But you two could be Hera and Zeus actually? Trying to help Nerwen (eg. the real Hades)? How would that sound to you guys?

Erm... how about far-fetched? Are you implying that Hera and Zeus would make a public show just to help Hades who isn't even in trouble? Like, what?

Originally Posted by Nog

I'm not sure I totally buy tp's explanation though, but actually it doesn't matter that much.

I'm not sure about that either, yet.


EDIT: x-ed with Eonwe, Nienna, Rikae and phantom

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Shasta - I pretty much always have the impulse to defend people when I think they're being suspected based on some aspect of their personality, style, etc. In this case, Mac's "my opinion, which it's frustrating to be alone with," is of course perfectly fine English, but the fact that this wasn't really a common way of phrasing it, and that it would make the part I bolded jump out at people as a possible hint, might not have occurred to him. Meta, but I've proofread a lot of (RL) stuff for him and I think I have a pretty good idea of what he might innocently say.

That's true, but then when Phantom asked him about it he hinted yet again (this time sarcastically on purpose, I think). That's only one of Mac's hints. Do you think they're all for the same 'second language' reason?

And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was. It makes me wonder - especially since Nerwen got votes yesterday.

[Eönwë]

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Poseidon- God of the Sea – Poseidon is this games Unicorn. When Poseidon dies I will put the names of all of the dead in a hat, including the Unicorn’s name. If the name I pick out is of an innocent (or Cobbler) that person will come back to life ALONG WITH Poseidon. If a Wolf or the False Seer is chosen, no one comes back.

Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Now, as I've said, the only way I will be playing with ALL of these roles is if I get enough people signed up to play. If not enough people are playing, I will remove some roles. If we get more then enough, I may add in a Bear or a Cobbler to the game.

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Originally Posted by Glirdan

Just so we're clear, there is ONE ordo role as there are 20 players and only 19 roles

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

[Macalaure]

After re-skimming (I'll start re-reading when the number of daily posts falls a reasonable amount), some of my opinions have changed.

Nogrod's fixation on Eonwe is bothering me. Usually he tries to see things from all perspectives. This makes me a bit uneasy.

I was a bit suspicious of Loslote yesterDay. After starting to read, I felt a little better, since I don't think a wolf would so back-and-forth-y on a number of topics. Then, her attacks on me are pretty suspicious. I might analyse her later.

I think Inzil took the "I think Mac is very suspicious, but he always is, so I won't vote for him" a bit too far yesterDay. Otherwise, not particularly suspicious.

I'm feeling a lot better about Autume.

I don't trust Shasta at all right now. He's bandwaggoning on the "Eonwe is cursed" waggon and the "Mac is Hades" waggon with some determination, but little contribution.

Originally Posted by Shasta

Regarding Mac's Hades-hints [...] They looked legit to me

They don't to me, that's why I didn't bother to refute them. I accused Nerwen of hinting to be Hades and obviously I had to use "Hades" and "Persephone" and "lovers" etc. Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.

Btw, since it keeps on coming up, with "giving up" I meant giving up to explain my theory, which was misunderstood a lot.

tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.

Originally Posted by me

In my opinion, though it's frustrating to be alone with it, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover".

My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."


Seriously, if you people are reading Hades-hints into these statements, you're being a lot more far-fetched than I possibly could have been with my Boro/Nerwen-hints theories yesterDay.


Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.

[Nienna]

Originally Posted by Eönwë

I came across this in my reread of the thread (Kath's post here). So, went to the Admin thread, and look what it says:


Now, does this mean that there is a Cobbler, or is it a 'just in case' for this:

The thing is, the Mod also says this:

Which seems to suggest that there isn't an Cobbler, but then why leave it in (especially when he doesn't mention the bear anywhere else)?

Steve, I think he was just saying that if we have heaps and heaps extra there may be a cobbler or a bear. And I think Kath is talking about innocents not ordos. There are lots of innocents... but only one ordo. Make sense?

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

After re-skimming (I'll start re-reading when the number of daily posts falls a reasonable amount), some of my opinions have changed.

Nogrod's fixation on Eonwe is bothering me. Usually he tries to see things from all perspectives. This makes me a bit uneasy.

I was a bit suspicious of Loslote yesterDay. After starting to read, I felt a little better, since I don't think a wolf would so back-and-forth-y on a number of topics. Then, her attacks on me are pretty suspicious. I might analyse her later.

I think Inzil took the "I think Mac is very suspicious, but he always is, so I won't vote for him" a bit too far yesterDay. Otherwise, not particularly suspicious.

I'm feeling a lot better about Autume.

I don't trust Shasta at all right now. He's bandwaggoning on the "Eonwe is cursed" waggon and the "Mac is Hades" waggon with some determination, but little contribution.


They don't to me, that's why I didn't bother to refute them. I accused Nerwen of hinting to be Hades and obviously I had to use "Hades" and "Persephone" and "lovers" etc. Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.

Btw, since it keeps on coming up, with "giving up" I meant giving up to explain my theory, which was misunderstood a lot.

tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.

My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."


Seriously, if you people are reading Hades-hints into these statements, you're being a lot more far-fetched than I possibly could have been with my Boro/Nerwen-hints theories yesterDay.


Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.

If I had to pick, Mac, a better way to say that might be 'it's frustrating to be the only one with that opinion', rather than use the word alone (which was apparently misconstrued).

And I don't think I'm 'just jumping' on Phantom's case. Nor am I 'just jumping' on the Eonwe case. Especially today, since I've clearly reconsidered Eonwe (i.e. not talking about him today). This just looks like you're lashing back against people who suspect you. Especially with your reaction to his question earlier - and the way you just responded to Phantom (i.e. denigrating the people who suspect you) makes me think the worse of you, as that's a wolvish tactic.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

That's only one of Mac's hints. Do you think they're all for the same 'second language' reason?

What other hints? The things Phantom posted about? The rest aren't even worth discussing, frankly. They don't look remotely like hints to me.

[the phantom]

Okay, Mac-

Originally Posted by Mac

Phantom's collection looks nice out of context, but it's bogus.

Well naturally any hints are going to have to be somewhat out of context. You can't say "Here's a hint" and then make one of those statements (okay, you could, but then they wouldn't be able to be looked for or discovered, as they'd be right there). So don't accuse me of over-reaching on account of that.

Originally Posted by Mac

My English must be terrible indeed, since I don't see what's wrong with this sentence. "In my opinion, he used the reference to Zeus simply to say "I am a lover". It's frustrating to be alone with that opinion."

No, no, there was nothing wrong with the sentence, but the fact that you stated that you were alone and were discussing lovers... I mean- you do understand why that might resemble a hint, right?

But in the end, you say-

Originally Posted by Mac

tp, I didn't have the heart to tell you because I didn't want to disappoint you. I know you like hints and bluffs etc., but there's none of that here. I saw it, I thought it was suspicious, I pointed it out, and then faced quite some opposition and had to keep talking and defending myself. No special role involved with it.

All right then. So in other words you're saying that you weren't even so much as laying false hints, but rather you weren't meaning to be indicating anything at all. Okay. This makes me suspect you less, as it seems to me that it would've been incredibly easy for you to write off the statements as ploys, but instead you've put forth that you never meant it at all, which you surely must know would look less believable in the eyes of those who already wish to suspect you. Why would you say this if it were not the truth? So- at this point I'd say I'm willing to leave those comments behind, Mac.

(Just fyi, in my earlier post I was wondering if perhaps you were Demeter and that was the cause of your Persephone/Hades obsession, and it was the Demeter role I was referring to earlier when I mentioned that there was an unlikely possibility by percentage but something that explained your behavior well after I reread the rules. It was this that I was trying to give you the chance to hint at.)

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Wait a second, what? Phantom, you say you suspect Mac less because he didn't write off his 'hints' as ploys, because it would have been easy to? That makes no sense. What kind of ploys would they have been, had he said otherwise? It seems to me that claiming they were ploys would have led to Mac having to at least softclaim a role, so... I'm not seeing why that makes him less suspicious.

[Macalaure]

Thanks, phantom.

I got a bit too irritated up there, I think. From my perspective, all those points are kind of ludicrous, and ignoring them just made it all worse. I can understand how Boro/Nerwen/Eonwe feel now.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the phantom

And again I wish to strangle you. In my Werewolfing career, every... single.... time I am innocent and come under heavy suspicion based upon bad reasoning I respond exactly like this, and every... single.... time someone has said I'm being suspiciously touchy.
...
I'm not touchy- I'm annoyed at the fact that multiple people are taking such flimsy stuff and stubbornly pushing forward in the wrong direction.

So that's two stranglings... not a wonder I felt my throat a bit sore.

People should suspect you more so it wouldn't cause such reactions anymore. I mean I don't remember you acting like that, so it must be you have avoided a lot of suspicions as really there's rather little thus far on you in this game - and more os less none you could categorise as "serious suspicion". So just relax, you're not going to end up in the gallows for a time yet.

Guess what? They haven't been right yet, and you aren't this time either.

You maybe right, or then there is the first time. There's little anyone can say about that until the roles have been revealed.

Originally Posted by Shasta

And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was. It makes me wonder - especially since Nerwen got votes yesterday.

Am I missing something here? I mean the Boro-part? People went after Boro but then Boro was pushing harder than I am? And hey, unless I find better cnadidates I think Nerwen should get a pile of votes toDay.

Referring to Greenie's comment about Hades-Nerwen not in trouble - don't you guys read what others post?



Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?

Don't you read what others post?


Got your attention then, hopefully.

I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue.

Thanks for reading.

Now respond to that and do not just say it's far-fetched off-hand.

EDIT: X'd with a few...

[A Little Green]

Originally Posted by Mac

Greenie - is there any way I can convince you I'm not Hades? Of all the cases I've seen, yours looks most earnest (opposed to phantom, who doesn't seem to actually believe in his own theory, and Shasta, who just jumps on it), but all I can say to it is that it's not the case.

You can convince me of nothing, I'm afraid, but you're doing a really good job just by sounding so innocent. Eurgh. I'm really torn now - my cold hard logic says wolf, my warm softer side (that would probably believe almost any "I'm not a wolf" -statement just because it doesn't want to admit that in werewolf nice people lie all the time) says innocent. I'm way too easy to fool, apparently.

Nah, and I'm dead tired and should be going to bed now. Vote in a sec...


EDIT: x-ed with Nog

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nog

Am I missing something here? I mean the Boro-part? People went after Boro but then Boro was pushing harder than I am? And hey, unless I find better cnadidates I think Nerwen should get a pile of votes toDay.

No, what I meant was, you seem to be pushing Nerwen a lot harder than anyone pushed Boro yesterday, for the same exact thing. All she did was say 'What the Hades?', as I recall.

[A Little Green]

Just quickly - Nog, cool down a bit, please. You are not exactly recommending your argument by that, especially right after telling phantom to relax.

Originally Posted by Nog

I have seen no argument why we should not take Nerwen's possible hint seriously. It was very early (first post) and she could have relied all the people would banter like they always do, so her little one would drown in the sea of God-names thrown around but her lover might pick it: so little danger, possible rewards - but alas! that didn't happen! It soon emerged that people were quite careful not using the banter-mode - and the whole hint-thing became a big issue.

I have given you one, others have given you others I believe. Don't you read what others post? *cough* Like I said, I don't believe Nerwen's "What the Hades" was a hint though there is nothing wrong with your argument itself. I don't believe it because I don't think Nerwen's way of hinting she was Hades would be to scream "Hades". It was either Day 1 banter (more probable, as I think others have pointed out) or a hint from Persephone to Hades (which doesn't really make sense, but was my initial thought).

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

No, what I meant was, you seem to be pushing Nerwen a lot harder than anyone pushed Boro yesterday, for the same exact thing.

And to say that you say this:

Originally Posted by Shasta

And I'm still looking at Nog. For the record I think he's been going after Nerwen for the same reason people went after Boro yesterday, but he's pushing it a lot harder than Boro was.

And you think we should go after others because of wordings?

[Inziladun]

I haven't time to do much at the moment, but I had to respond to this.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Greenie – Day One is particularly hard to find wolves. So I know personally I voted to kill the person who I thought would be detrimental to the village. I could have voted someone else (a possible wolf) but could have much more easily gotten an important gifted and since I didn’t have any idea who the wolves were I wasn’t willing to risk it.

Originally Posted by Nienna

Tum’s BG vote looks very suspicious if for timing alone. That’d be a perfect time for a wolf to slip a vote in. Zil’s, however, doesn’t look fabulous either, as he made the bandwagon a possibility and started the ball rolling. I also (as I mentioned at the time) don’t like his reasoning.

So I'm suspicious for voting someone who'd been popping in out while saying absolutely nothing, though goading others to talk more, while you voting for someone you admitted was innocent is perfectly all right.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And to say that you say this:
And you think we should go after others because of wordings?

Ah, I see. There's a typo there (missing word). It should be -

Originally Posted by Shasta

he's pushing it harder than Boro was pushed.

My bad.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Originally Posted by Inziladun

I haven't time to do much at the moment, but I had to respond to this.





So I'm suspicious for voting someone who'd been popping in out while saying absolutely nothing, though goading others to talk more, while you voting for someone you admitted was innocent is perfectly all right.

Nienna doesn't admit BG was an innocent there. She says she thinks BG would have been 'most detrimental'. Being detrimental to the village doesn't exclude one from being a wolf, so that seems like a gross misrepresentation on your part, Zil.

[A Little Green]

I think Nog's obsession with Hades-Nerwen is as badly founded as... my obsession with Hades-Mac I suppose. But really, a Hades-Nerwen just doesn't sit right with me at all, I simply can't see her doing that as Hades. While I have doubts about my Hades-Mac, I find it an infinitely more probable scenario. (And at least I admit I may be wrong and consider other alternatives..)

Alas! here go my hopes of a game that doesn't involve quarreling with Nog. Oh well.


EDIT: x-ed with Inzil and 2x Shasta

[the phantom]

To Nog regarding Nerwen-

The reason for accusing her is her first post, in which she says "What the Hades is going on here?" When that statement was pointed to yesterday, she responded with these statements-

Originally Posted by Nerwen

I realise now that the usual themed Day One bantering was possibly ill-advised in this game, because pretty much anything you can say relates to one of the roles.

Originally Posted by Nerwen

If I had defended myself more you'd now be calling me "defensive" right now, Nogrod. Besides, what was there to say? I tried to adapt an idiom to the setting, just as we'll say "What the Utumno?" in an M-e based game.

These explanations are essentially the same thing that Mac gave to me today- a complete and utter denial of having intended anything at all.

The fact is, Hades would have known going into the day whether or not he was going to hint, and also would have been aware that such hinting was likely to be pointed out. There would be a plan in his head for that eventuality, surely? He would have an explanation ready! So, why didn't Nerwen give a more graceful and intelligent explanation (i.e. claim that she was helping the village by giving Persephone false leadings for instance)?

No- I place her explanation and Mac's in the same boat. Both make me feel better. I may be wrong, but there it is. You may not agree, Nog, but do you see my reasoning?

(edit: x-post with several)

[A Little Green]

And this time I'm truly off to bed. I'll go with the best lead I have and vote

++Mac

I'm not as convinced about this as I was, but still more convinced about this than anything else. And besides, Mac's lynch would shed light on the role of many others - I'm thinking mainly Nerwen, Nog, Lottie, Rikae, and possibly Shasta and phantom too.

Good night!


EDIT: x-ed with phantom