Game Thread: Werewolf- this time it's real!

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Nogrod is acting like his typical self. Often he does get lynched because he is so vocal.

This is a very important point to keep in mind, everybody. I've experienced the same thing several times: Nogrod's style will rub me the wrong way, we argue, and then we both get lynched.

[Isabellkya]

I won't be voting for Nog toDay. Whether due to accident or purpose, there seems to of been a lack of understanding on both our parts?

Kent, I've no reason to.

Form, the same as above.

Pretty much no read on:
Shasta, Brin, Lari, Alonariel

I don't see what the issue is/was with Kuru and Green.

o.O about Fea. Vote with nothing added to it?

I'm tempted to vote for Sally more than Gwath.

Firefoot
Nilp looks a shade less than normal. Due to the outlaw on self-voting I think.


Oh boy, this is really ... frustrating when for the majority of the players.. is "no comment". o.O


X'd since Gwath's #357

[Isabellkya]

Other than perhaps it looks pretty out of nowhere, and .... random?
I know he mentioned/pointed at Form earlier, but it didn't seem to lead up to a vote.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm still working on my big analysis post...but am I the only one who finds Shasta's vote/explaination a little troubling?

Going fishing?

[Isabellkya]

There is always fishing here, Kent. xD

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Isabellkya

There is always fishing here, Kent. xD

hehe

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I'm still working on my big analysis post...but am I the only one who finds Shasta's vote/explaination a little troubling?

Heh. Well, obviously I'm a little perturbed by it. Not that I think you can expect anything else from me, given the situation.

But it does seem a little bit odd... Yes, Shasta has felt a bit uneasy about me today, but it was not a clear situation in the slightest. He defended me in the following post:

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I almost decided to post why I've been so gone recently, but I decided that's better left to the admin thread. I'll go there after I'm done with this post.

{SNIP}
Now, Nogrod. You're saying that the thing that makes you the most suspicious of Form is that he doesn't see the same thing Brinn does? How on earth does that make sense? Explain it to me, would you?

Granted, he's not exonerating me, but he seems to have understood where I was coming from, and on the amount of tangible evidence offered (and especially given Nog's own suspicions of Greenie, I would have expected him to vote that way, with the higher chances it held (holds?) of seeing effect.

On the other hand, it could be that Shasta went for me rather than Greenie in order to AVOID looking like a wolf jumping on a suggestion of a bandwaggon--a situation too reminiscent of Nienna's death yesterday. This could be the case if he's a wolf or an ordo.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Cos lists are rather lovely. (Numbers in parentheses are post #s where I drew my conclusion.)

Probably Guilty (My main suspects.)
Kuruharan (NIGHT kill! + 311)
Brinniel (275)
Firefoot (290)

Somewhat Worrying (Thinking innocent, but with a soupçon of . . . suspicion. )
Formendacil (315)
Nogrod (299 & 324)
Feanor of the Peredhil (292)

Must Watch (Being quite hard to read for now.)
Alonariel
Lariren Shadow
satansaloser2005
Isabellkya

Reassuring (Cos I like the way they think.)
Kent2010 (300)
Shatanis Althreduin (321 & 323)
Gwathagor (351)

Slacker (Having so much fun with this game.)
Nilpaurion Felagund

~*~*~*~

I'm already forming possible Baddie interactions manifesting themselves during the DAY, and all I'm lacking is that one clue.

Most likely I'll vote for Kuru, and use my bonus votes while I'm at it, too.

[Kuruharan]

There, lots of reading to do.

Here are the things that stand out to me.

As I have read over the posts I have become a bit troubled by Brinniel, Firefoot and Kent.

Except for her last post, Brinniel spent the entire Day in self-justification and not really helping much in quest of wolves.

I find this rather suspicious.

For whatever reasons, which might be good ones, Firefoot has been unusually silent. She made some disturbing references to the Seer yesterday which is not really something an ordo wants to be doing. Her vote for me yesterday also seemed to come rather out of the blue.

ToDay she said at the beginning she wouldn't be around much (fair enough) and ultimately has come down hard on Nogrod.

My suspicious about her, I admit are primarily focused around her talk about the Seer yesterday.

Kent bothers me for a couple of reasons. The first is, as Firefoot mentioned, he seems so defensive about his status as a newbie, as if he is using it as a shield to protect himself from worse. He is the one who is always bringing it up. He is also a bit scattershot in his approach to things. He will say things and then back off of them.

The most troubling example of this is in post 328 where he really went out in attacking Form. I find his tone in this post to be troubling and almost underhanded in a way...especially when after making all these attacks on Form he backs away from them immediately.

I find this very disturbing.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Kuru

I'm still working on my big analysis post...but am I the only one who finds Shasta's vote/explaination a little troubling?

I don't find it troubling. Shasta has to keep leaving the pub to go off and work on theatre productions and has probably spent more time outside The Eagle and the Child than in. A bit frustrating, but I also understand it can't be helped...I go to school with a lot of theatre students and know they have crazy schedules. A semi-random vote is better than no vote at all which would mean modfire. I don't mind his vote toDay so long as he doesn't continue to make random votes throughout the entire game.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Oh, darn you, Kuru. You just had to go out and make a life-saving post.

(Well, it means I'm finding you sensible and innocent-minded. I'm holding my fire at you, for now.)

[Formendacil]

Okay, my energy is starting to flag. I'm off to bed in a bit, so let's look over my list again...

Guilty:
Greenie
Shasta
Izzy

Unsure:
Brinn
Kent
Fea
Kuru
Sally
Gwath
Alonariel
Firefoot

Not Guilty:
Nogrod
Nilp

This isn't much of a selection... My "Guilty" list is completely in reference to everyone else who ISN'T apparently guilty.

And because this post was made while I was interrupted by a 15 minute phonecall, I'll check the thread before posting something red.

[Kuruharan]

I thought Nogrod deserved a little extra attention because he is on the chop right now.

In spite of everything, including his odd split vote thingy yesterday and his misguided notions about me I believe (at least for the present) that he is innocent and is trying to come up with suggestions and ideas about how to best help the village...I don't agree with all those ideas (particularly the ones that involve lynching me) but they do not seem right now to bear the stamp of werewolfery. It is a lot safer for wolves to be seconding other people's ideas rather than bearing the brunt of offering ideas themselves, and people who are doing the seconding or at least gave me the impression of doing the seconding are the ones that I tried to focus on and Nogrod does not fit that bill.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

I don't find it troubling. Shasta has to keep leaving the pub to go off and work on theatre productions and has probably spent more time outside The Eagle and the Child than in. A bit frustrating, but I also understand it can't be helped...I go to school with a lot of theatre students and know they have crazy schedules. A semi-random vote is better than no vote at all which would mean modfire. I don't mind his vote toDay so long as he doesn't continue to make random votes throughout the entire game.

-emphasis mine

See, that word there would be the crux of the matter. Inactivity, I can understand--it is true that drama students have crazy schedules. Inability, consequently to focus on things and analyse them, that I can also understand.

But even so... no vote is truly random--as you say. A semi-random vote is exactly the right way of putting it. But what's the semi-part? There is a reason, undoubtedly, for lighting on me as the recipient of the vote, and this reason is not random. It may be trivial... but it's not random.

[Kent2010]

Woo finally...now I can actually get defensive.

The first is, as Firefoot mentioned, he seems so defensive about his status as a newbie, as if he is using it as a shield to protect himself from worse. He is the one who is always bringing it up.
-Kuru

It's hard not to when you are reminded about your status everywhere you turn...

Fair enough... I am mollified, I guess, insofar as I don't know you, so I can't distinguish between newbie covering (especially since, were that so, you could assisted by PMing with the other Wolves)
-Formendacil

The people I like at the moment are Form (he's nice to me) and Kent (he's either a good newbie or receives advice via PM. I'm inclined to think the former, given how he reacted to Kuru's accusations of me).
-Agan

After this was when I first mentioned my newbie status

But just want to say...I doubt there are any poor intentions, becase I have received a lot of 'hellos' and I've loved my welcome here, but it does come off as a little degrading saying I'm either an innocent newbie or I am receiving constant PM instruction.

My slight frustration, but that was a mix-up of opinion and intention and cleaned up:

It may also just be grasping at straws--a newbie making a mistake would be probably the one certain thing to look for in analysing Day 1 prior to the completion of Day 1.

Of course, it's entirely possible you're innocent but just not guilty-looking enough to come across that way. It's a problem we've all had, once or twice, I'm sure.
-Formendacil

And today...

If you had seen me in other games, you'd know that I typically like to keep alive players who are newbies, infrequent players, or someone who tends to get Day 1 lynched often for the first Day or two. To me, it's a matter of fairness. It can be more frustrating as first time player, someone who hasn't played in a long time, or someone who always dies early compared to a regular to hardly play before getting killed, especially as a Day One lynch when reasoning behind suspicion isn't all that strong. WW is supposed to be fun and sometimes that situation takes out the fun and discourages the player from joining another game. I've seen it happen before.
-Brinn

I responded in 304. Fea responded to my response later. And in 312 I consided the matter closed:

Ok, now I get your logic. I disagree, but I understand the reasons, and I could continue to argue about this in circles, but I will just say...for myself, just know I appreciate the courtesy but please I don't need to be coddled. If you find justification to come after me, than come after me, I can take care of myself.

Greenie adds her tidbit.

I have to add to this discussion about granting people a free pass on Day 1 for different reasons. I think it's a sort of nice courtesy not to lynch people on Day 1 in their first game - or in their first game in a very long while - unless there is hard evidence against them. Deciding not to lynch somebody because that said person is enjoyable to play with is a trifle more complicated, since the person voted for instead easily gets a feeling that s/he is not as enjoyable to play with as someone else. And that, in my opinion, is one step away from fair play. After all, this game shouldn't be about lynching those you know little and keeping alive those you know and like best, but instead about letting everyone play and treating everyone fairly regardless of whether they are special favourites of yours or not.

Firefoot thinks that I'm being too defensive about it.

My other thought has been that Kent has seemed... a little obsessed... with his newbie status, wanting to be treated fairly and all that... but if he was a wolf I think I'd expect him to play it up differently.

I respond to that.

Oh hopefully not sounding obsessed, I guess that's better than ungrateful. I really don't want to sound ungrateful for the courtesy, but playing "fair" just wasn't something I was expecting in werewolf.

And Formendacil later...

To be fair, I think I would also be the sort of person to harp on about being a newbie in a game like this if I were to jump in right now--there's a lot of history between some of the players here.

So, how have I used my "newbie" status as a shield? It looks more like people are using it as a crutch to not vote for me and give a reason to vote for everyone else. I have not once initiated the "newbie defense" and only responded to it when asked or when I felt necessary because someone else brought it up.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

So, how have I used my "newbie" status as a shield? It looks more like people are using it as a crutch to not vote for me and give a reason to vote for everyone else.

Which is a pretty lovely shield, don't you think?

[Formendacil]

Well, even if I stick around because the posts are flying, a vote needs to be made, and bed really does look good in the reflection on the computer screen...

++ A Little Green

Albeit, I have a few misgivings because it's a tenuous feeling at best, but she's as far up my suspicion list as anyone is, and if it spurs Nog's one-man-bandwaggon in that direction rather than Fea's or Kuru's--well, that sits closest to my intuitions this evening.

[Lariren Shadow]

All right I know I need to vote now so I don't forget. I'm going with

++KENT

He is the one I think is most guilty.

Edit: x-posted since 374.

[Kent2010]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Which is a pretty lovely shield, don't you think?

Only for those who decide to use me as a crutch to have an excuse to vote for someone else.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

Only for those who decide to use me as a crutch to have an excuse to vote for someone else.

I'm going to be a bit dafter for a moment than I normally prefer to be, and say I don't get what you're saying here. If I understand your argument aright, you seem to be saying it's a bad thing that people don't vote for you--they want to, but they don't.

I'm not exactly sure how this is a good thing for THEM and not for you. It is, after all, the life of Kent2010 that is NOT going to die as a result.

Unless you're the cobbler, there's no reason you'd want to be voted for, that I can perceive. If you're innocent, you wouldn't want votes--that would mean the village wasn't focusing on the Wolves. And if you're a wolf you wouldn't want the votes, because, well, you're a wolf--you don't plan on getting lynched, but getting maximum number of villagers killed.

Maybe you're just missing a necessary negative condition somewhere, or else I'm just misreading you (I should be abed), but as it stands, your argument is making no sense to me--which has not been the norm the past couple Days.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Well, this certainly is getting even more interesting.

All right, I'll be out with it: Kent is on my secret suspicion list. I've been drawing inferences on possible interactions, and whether I go Kuru - Firefoot or Nogrod - Form he's more often than not one of the links in the chain.

Not to mention that my other (secret) interpretation of the NIGHT kill points to him.

But coming out of the blue can be rather suspicious. (Oooh...) I'll raise the relevant posts.

[Kent2010]

I'm going to be a bit dafter for a moment than I normally prefer to be, and say I don't get what you're saying here. If I understand your argument aright, you seem to be saying it's a bad thing that people don't vote for you--they want to, but they don't.
-Formendacil

I'm saying I'm not hiding behind my status, but I think others might use my status to hide behind it. By either looking nice in "I can't lynch Kent today, he's a newbie" or by using the excuse itself to give a reason to not vote for me..."Oh that's just Kent making a newbie mistake."

And maybe the wolves feel I will be an easy target later in the game to go after? I might get a courtesy pass the first couple days, but by that 3rd or 4th day I imagine it's a lot easier for wolves to convince everyone to vote out the newbie.

[Brinniel]

Okay, so I went back and looked at some voters from yesterDay I was worried about.

Izzy may have voted Nienna late, but she did suspect her before the bandwagon started up. That earlier suspicion gives reasoning behind her vote; she didn't just vote for her out of the blue. Which makes her look more innocent than not.

Gwath was very eager to hop on the bandwagon with this post:

Originally Posted by Gwath

You're right - Nienna does look rather bad in light of that sequence of posts, like she's fishing for a bandwagon almost. She might just be an innocent who didn't have any better idea, but this seems a far more substantial case than any others that have been made toDay. I think I'll be voting Nienna.

It looks bad, but what makes me hesitant to suspect him is that I believe an innocent Gwath has eagerly hopped on bandwagons in past games. So this isn't exactly unusual behaviour from him.

Sally and Firefoot look the worst to me.

Here's what Sally said:

Originally Posted by Sally

I think I'll look over Nienna's posts real quick and see what the fuss is about. It's possible I forgot to actually....you know....read her post when I went through the thread. I'm such a silly hobbit.

Originally Posted by Sally

I decided that yeah, Nienna does have some furry potential. And I know she's blinking brilliant as a wolf, so I'd hate to give her a free pass for too long and then wind up dead.

Sally seemed to really quickly come to the conclusion that Nienna was evil. There's something about the tone of these posts that feels just wrong and suggests perhaps she doesn't have good intentions.

Sally has been unusually quiet in this game...I only just realised she hasn't shown up yet toDay. That may speak in her favour since she tends to be a loud wolf. But then again there's a good chance her absence is due to RL and when someone's missing because of RL, it really doesn't tell anything about what their role may be.

Firefoot voted for Kuru with this reasoning:

Originally Posted by Firefoot

It strikes me as really interesting that Agan would want to throw a bonus vote out there already - it seems like a rather unfounded move, given the amount of material we have to go on. Hmmm... unless he's the seer... Kuru would be a fairly logical choice as a first night dream, he's well known enough. And that would explain why Agan came out swinging at him.

I don't feel too bad pointing this out if it's true, because the wolves would no doubt have picked up on it already.

I find this rather weird. If you think someone to be the seer there's no good reason to state it publicly. Maybe the wolves already picked up on it, but maybe not and you just gave it away. The fact that she feels the need to defend her statement suggesting that Agan may be the seer in that same post is even more concerning.

Though it's also possible this was a ploy and Firefoot was trying to make the wolves think Agan was the seer when she really just believed her to be an ordo so that they would Night kill her. This scenario has occurred before. But I've never played with Firefoot before, so I don't know if she is the type of player to come up with such a ploy.

EDIT: X-ed since #372

[Lariren Shadow]

Vote count as of now:
Greenie -->Nog
Fea(4) -->Nog*
Shasta -->Form
Form -->Grennie
Lari -->Kent

*Is Fea's vote four votes or five? I got confused when it was said that Nog had five votes because I thought Fea voted five times but then saw that Greenie had voted Nog too...bah maybe I'm just confused.

Anyway so if Fea counts as five then:
Nog 6, Form, Greenie, and Kent 1

If Fea 4 then:
Nog 5, Form, Greenie, and Kent 1

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

Kent bothers me for a couple of reasons. The first is, as Firefoot mentioned, he seems so defensive about his status as a newbie, as if he is using it as a shield to protect himself from worse.

Kent has NOT been using his newbie-status as a shield. You must have misread...all of his posts.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Lari

*Is Fea's vote four votes or five? I got confused when it was said that Nog had five votes because I thought Fea voted five times but then saw that Greenie had voted Nog too...bah maybe I'm just confused.

It should count as five. One for writing down the name which is your regular vote, plus the four bonus votes.

[Isabellkya]

While I was rereading the Day and completely skipping over posts I'd already commented on, some things caught my eye.


I suppose it comes down to an argument of semantics, yet it still sent a flag up.

Kuru does a post analysis/recap of Sally - Her #358 says she has no idea who to vote for yet.
In actuality she said she had no idea who she'd like to kill yet.

Which yes, voting for someone is voting for them to die. Yet, most if not always people refer to it as voting, rather than killing. It just seemed an off statement/phrasing to me.



I'm a bit confused to Firefoot's #290.

Well, obviously Agan was not the seer. If Kuru is not a wolf, the wolves would have known this, so this wouldn't be the reason that they killed her, as she would have just been an ordo (or a non-seer gifted). If Kuru was a wolf, though, and Agan was the seer, this wouldn't really make sense either since then we'd all know Kuru was a wolf because we'd know Agan was the seer. Unless they just wanted to limit the chance that she'd dream of another wolf... so that begs the question, even though Agan wasn't the seer (say she had a really lucky guess and the wolves thought she was), is Kuru a wolf anyway?

Or were the wolves not even thinking about the seer and just decided that Agan was too much of a liability?

And as for what I was thinking... a potential seer lead seemed like a really good Day 1 reason to vote Kuru. And if Agan actually had been the seer, I think the wolves would have guessed it... that's a little bit too lucky, to just pick one person basically off the bat, and then be so confident as to put two votes on him, and get it right.

Otherwise my vote would have been more or less random...

And just so you all know, I probably won't be around much toDay. Wednesdays are busy busy busy.

It seems like you are saying that the main reason you voted for Kuru was because of a potential seer lead on him via Agan. Yet, if I remember correctly you outed it was a possible seer lead yesterDay. So why would you do that, if you thought she was the Seer. It doesn't look very innocent of you.



I don't think I answered your question in #298 Gwath. No, I was looking at it purely in regards to Nienna. Nog made a post about his suspicions towards her, then the next two posts involve both you and sally agreeing with it. When, there had been no implication from either of you before that - that you found something wrong with Nienna. I was merely stating that out of the Nienna voters - both of yours looked the most bandwagonish.

Kent why won't you vote for Greenie toDay, and why would you "make a necessary move to see she is not lynched", if Nog put his bonus votes on her?


X'd since Form's #372.

[Kuruharan]

I do agree with Kent on one thing, at least. I find the Greenie thing to be rather suspect suspicion. I may be missing something but for now at least I just don't see it.

I am also concerned about Gwath and Sally, mostly because they seem in large measure to have slipped underneath almost everyone's radar...and that bothers me.

They were part of the Niennawagon yesterday, Sally in particular was rather short on explaination (see her post 266).

X-ed with everything past 382

[Lariren Shadow]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

It should count as five. One for writing down the name which is your regular vote, plus the four bonus votes.

Thanks

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Kent has NOT been using his newbie-status as a shield. You must have misread...all of his posts.

If that is your impression of his behavior, that is obviously up to you.

Its an impression that I don't agree with.

Newness isn't a fault and in my mind it isn't something to be defensive about as to my mind Kent consistantly has been. It seems to me that he defends himself from it so as to keep it in people's minds so that his newness will be the primary thing that people associate with him.

[Brinniel]

Hmm...I'm not seriously concerned about anyone on the chopping block. Out of all of them, Formy is probably the most suspicious, but my suspicion of him is really not a strong one and is based on a slightly uneasy feeling. Certainly not enough of a reason for me to vote him. And I may have voted to save someone yesterDay, but there's really no one here that I really feel the need to save toDay. Day One is over, so no more free passes.

I don't like to spread out the votes usually, but I may just vote Sally or Firefoot anyway since they are my current suspects and I don't really like any of the other choices.

[Kent2010]

Kent why won't you vote for Greenie toDay, and why would you "make a necessary move to see she is not lynched", if Nog put his bonus votes on her?
-Isabellyka

Post 346 is the full explanation...

But basically I thought there was the possibility of her getting ganged up on at the deadline. As she would not be here to defend herself, and there was growing suspicion about her - suspicion that doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

[Kent2010]

Newness isn't a fault and in my mind it isn't something to be defensive about as to my mind Kent consistantly has been. It seems to me that he defends himself from it so as to keep it in people's minds so that his newness will be the primary thing that people associate with him.
-Kuru

But who is the one who is doing the "constant" reminding?

Others have mentioned my newbieness more times than myself and long before I ever decided I needed to respond to it.

[Kuruharan]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

But who is the one who is doing the "constant" reminding?

Others have mentioned my newbieness more times than myself and long before I ever decided I needed to respond to it.

But you are doing it right now.

Anyway, the vote I am most comfortable with today is for Firefoot as her behavior over yesterDay and toDay has been the most consistantly creepy...although at the moment I am torn because Kent is so uptight.

[Firefoot]

Okay, I'm taking a lot of flak for the seer comment I made yesterday... fair enough.

But if I was a wolf, why would I bother making such a comment...? I'm not sure what point that would serve either, unless you all are just accusing me of plain sloppiness. That would be a reason that my post would make me seem wolfish to you... but no one's mentioned that. So it must seem odd on other grounds. You say an ordo wouldn't expose the seer like that... well, if I was a wolf, and Kuru was also a wolf, and Agan got Kuru lynched, I would take out Agan that night in case she was the seer. Just saying. I didn't feel like I was exposing anything.

Or it could be a very clever bluff.

Or I'm the cobbler.

But none of those things are true. And I don't have anything else to say about that. I've already explained myself, and if you don't like it, then you don't like it. Fine.

Anyway... sorry I didn't get my vote in earlier like I announced - the internet went down... but I'm back so it's okay. I've read all the posts, but don't have time to go through them in detail, and nothing in particular has stuck out to me, so I'm just going to go with my earlier plan:

++Nogrod

[Nogrod]

Hah! I got in time...

And well, it looks like I suspect each and everyone of you.

I see why some have brought forwards Sally and Firefoot. I might be tempted to try either but it just feels we're digging an easy way out there.

Needs to give it one more thought.

EDIT: X'd with Firefoot... oops!

[Kent2010]

++Kuru(+5)

I hope others will see how Kuru blew up the entire newbie situation. In post 312 I considered the matter closed and told Fea (and Brinn before) I understand the logic now. It wasn't until Firefoot said I looked a little obsessive and Kuru ran with off it that this then become exagerrated.

crossed with Firefoot crap I don't want Nogrod lynched.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Kent2010

I hope others will see how Kuru blew up the entire newbie situation. In post 312 I considered the matter closed and told Fea (and Brinn before) I understand the logic now. It wasn't until Firefoot said I looked a little obsessive and Kuru ran with off it that this then become exagerrated.

Yeah, I noticed.

[Nogrod]

Even if I don't like Firefoot's vote she looks innocentish indeed ie. her explanation makes sense.

[Isabellkya]

It may just be me, but I'm not liking the position the vote tally is in.

I myself, don't find Nog and Kuru suspicious and worthy of a vote... let alone use of bonus votes. Yet it begs the question as to whether or not they are ploys to get innocents to use their own bonus votes - so later in the game the wolves/vampire have theirs and we don't.


X'd with Gwath and Nog.