Tol-in-Gaurhoth LII: Star Crossed II: Together for Eternity

[Nogrod]

Uh... erm... what the...?

Well, firstly and foremostly: thank you ms/mr ranger! That was well done indeed! I hope I can help you in someway to pay back this - and let's hope I'm not going to help lynching you... It would be pretty pathetic.

But to the questionmarks in the beginning there.

It sure is unusual that the name of the saved person is declared. Not that it should have any significance in this kind of a game. Or does it? I mean why to do it if it has no signifigance? It's just hard to see the point of revealing it was me one of the lover-pairs tried to get rid of. If I'm not totally mistaken the only thing that changes here is that the other team now knows the other one was after me - and you villagers know it. But what's the value of that information?

Okay. There's this: now both wolf-teams know I'm not a member of the other team. But I'm still not so sure about the value of that piece of information.

Anyway. It looks like I'm dead meat the next Night. Happily I have some time later today so I can try to make the best out of the little time I still have (and Mac can use his energies into the actual wolf-hunt as well... ).

Secondly. The narration seems to make it quite plain that there are two teams of two going about their killing-business during Nights. And there is a ranger. Now what makes me wonder is that even if it looks like we are at the moment losing this game and losing it bad (just look at the list of the dead) the initial situation of there being just two pairs of baddies in a village of twenty puts the baddies into an almost hopeless position in the beginning.

A total number of four baddies in a village of twenty is kind of the average number but as (or should we now start pondering, if?) they are linked to each other it would be really bad for the baddies.

There is something wrong here.

But be it this or that way, we sure need to start pulling our act together now. Five dead innocents and no lovers caught. That's a bad performance. I'll be back trying to do my part later in to the Day.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Okay. There's this: now both wolf-teams know I'm not a member of the other team. But I'm still not so sure about the value of that piece of information.

Oops... faulty logic there.

The pair who tried to kill me can't be sure about my status but the other team knows I'm not one of the other team. Unless there is a third pair lurking somewhere.


A funny thought emerged. How about we have four pairs of lovers as in the first installment of this game but to avoid the terrible carnage there will be only two kills per Night. They might then kill in turns, two each Night, or then Di may randomise the kills like all four pairs send their kill to her and she then picks two of them or something...

That would mean we have 8 baddies and only 6 innocents around!

Looking at the bright side of it, we might start hitting the right targets with over 50% chances...

[Macalaure]

I'm still suspicious of Nogrod, but since he should be dead by tonight anyway, there is no point in going after him today. I hope nobody gets the idea to treat him like a known innocent.

Two pairs of lovers in a village of 20 is indeed nearly unfair - especially since the two couples can't win together (at least it was that way last time). Our moddess has hidden a twist somewhere, I'm sure. Maybe she decided to reveal little bits of information one by one.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A funny thought emerged. How about we have four pairs of lovers as in the first installment of this game but to avoid the terrible carnage there will be only two kills per Night.

I had that idea, too, and I think I mentioned it some time yesterday. Less carnage is good for us (though, actually, it's good for them, too, because they're safer themselves), but we can't make connections between the kills and the killers, giving us less information.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

That would mean we have 8 baddies and only 6 innocents around!

The good thing is that only one couple alone can win. Even very few innocents have a decent chance to win against 8.

The idea that there are more people with evil intent than with good is scary, though.


I have a feeling we can actually learn something from tonight death this time. I'll go analysing.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Jumping in to say good morning. I won't have time to do this properly until midafternoon, but I wanted to register my mixed up thoughts about Nogrod.

So here's what we know for sure from last night's narration: he's not the Ranger.

Okay... werewolf isn't being my forte this morning. I need to get ready for work and stop trying to think critically while it's still dark out. I'll see everyone this afternoon.

[Macalaure]

Day One

Kitanna:

#80 - Comments on too much vengeance (me and Agan as example victims). Criticises Rikae and Aganzir for attacks on me.

#99 - Votes Rikae mostly for said attack.

#197 - Defends her defense of me to Nogrod by saying she just felt that way.


Awfully little, and the little she said was almost entirely about me. I thought at this point, that Kitanna might the seer and dreamt of me during Night One. That would have explained her focussing on attacks on her one known innocent.


Reactions:

#115 - Aganzir defends Kitanna from Gollum, saying that she had valid reasons to vote Rikae.

#116 - Nogrod looks for possible couples and finds Kitanna defending me. He's the first to bring this up. Lommy and especially Legate discuss it for a while over the next posts. Legate votes for her.

#187 - Gollum says she's fairly innocent.

#189 - Rikae dislikes the way Kitanna voted for her.

#196 - Brinniel brings to attention that Kitanna's vote was a cross-post.

#204 - Shasta thinks her vote is weird.

#207 - Nogrod votes Kitanna.

#212 - Shasta criticises Kitanna's defense validly.

#217 - Brinniel analyses Kitanna and finds her fine-looking, in #221 she restates her innocence.


Shasta and Nogrod look a little bad. Brinniel good.


Day Two:

Kitanna:

#247 - Thinks Lalaith was killed because she was quiet, Legate because he was believed to be a lover.

#312, #313 - Plans to look at Eonwe, Eomer, and Rikae. Makes a case against Eonwe.

#314, #318 - Analyses Eomer and is confused by him. Analyses Rikae and moves away from suspecting her.

#328 - Votes Eonwe because she wants to see what Eomer does tomorrow first.


Following my Kitanna-seer-theory, it's possible (from the lover-point of view) that she dreamt of Rikae, found her innocent, and made a case to justify no longer suspecting her. It's probable from her posts that her next dream would have been Eomer. Other lover might not have been in a special rush to kill her at this point.


Reactions:

#245+#253 - Aganzir doesn't know what to do with her, then calls her defense of me unsuspicious.

#266 - Eomer calls Kitanna's last post suspicious because it assumes the intention behind the deaths of Lalaith and Legate without much thought.

#300 - Shasta is confused by Eomer over this.

#297, #302, #303, #305 - Eomer continues on his earlier point to an unmerited degree. Admits that his suspicion is partly due to vengeance. Votes her.

#307 - Brinn doesn't know what to do with Kitanna.

#311 - Nogrod iterates his point about Kitanna's defense of me, adds her carefulness to it.

#333 - Brinniel acknowledges that Eomer points against Kitanna are good.

#338 - Shasta thinks Kitanna is innocent.


Brinniel's quietly moving away from finding Kitanna innocent is a bit shady. Nogrod keeps on harping on a connection between me and her. Eomer's attack is stupid (no offense) and highly suspicious. The way Brinniel acknowledged the quality of Eomer's point is suspicious, too. Shasta looks better.

----

I might be overstraining the idea, but my guess is that one lover team thought that Kitanna is either the lover of an evil Mac (as Nogrod and Legate thought), or the seer who wished to protect her known innocent on Day One. The combination of these two crucial things would make her a logical target, but why only this night and not the last? Not knowing the actual rules on the kills makes this hard to answer. It could of course be that Lover-Eomer suddenly realised his peril and felt forced to act. Usually, after his behaviour on Day Two, Lover-Eomer would never have killed Kitanna, but the fear of the seer sometimes makes a person act irrational. So far, I found Brinniel and her over-analytical approach very innocent-looking. The way she backed off of Kitanna and approved Eomer's point yesterday is suspicious, however. Maybe she hides behind her strict analyticism. Nogrod is of course the main culprit of bringing the possible connection between me and Kitanna to everybody's attention. I'm torn on what to think of it, but I will ignore it for now.

It is of course entirely possible that Kitanna's murderers have never said one word about her, but in that case I would have to suspect half of the village, and that's not effective. It is also entirely possible that the reasons for killing Kitanna were different, since she only suspected (among the living) Eomer (which would in fact make him look better now). For now, however, I'd rather effectively suspect a few on an assumption that might be faulty than keep on running around confused.

(edit: my, this is a quiet morning...)

[Gwathagor]

Interesting points regarding Eomer.

At the end of yesterDay, I said that I'd explain my vote for Rikae, but I took too long doing it and so missed the deadline. Sorry. Here it is now.

Originally Posted by Rikae

At any rate - the person I find most suspicious right now is Aganzir. I've suspected Lommy too, but I don't like to lynch her on Day One...

Looks like a baddie trying to gain some credibility when Lommy would turn out to be innocent - oh dang, never mind, that's a terrible reason. Drat.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Just thought I'd pop in to say I'm working on a midterm that's due tomorrow, so I won't be able to contribute much, but I am following the discussion.
Groin, go read what I already said about that post, I see no need to say anything else. *shrug*
I do find myself wondering if the fact that no one has paid any attention to my increasing number of lovers theory means I've stumbled on the truth and those who know it are afraid to tip me off, assuming I know it too - but I suppose more likely you all just think I'm loony.

I don't like this post, because it forces us to assume she is innocent. I elaborated yesterDay.

Originally Posted by Rikae

Guess I should respond to Fea:

Yes, I've noticed, over the past two days, quite a few people dislike my approach to Mac. I disagree - I like it just fine, and I'm quite comfortable with it. I will most likely use it in the future, so you all are just going to have to get comfortable with it.

Man! I disagree! If somebody's arguments don't sit right with me, I'm gonna vote them! I don't have to just live with it.


So, um, I'm ashamed to say that upon further examination, none of these are very good reasons for me to have voted Rikae.

In conclusion, then: while I may intuitively find her suspicious, I can't yet do so on a rational basis.

[Aganzir]

Originally Posted by Brinn on Gollum

My guess is that this is more innocentish newbie behaviour...as a lover, I think his partner would advice him on how to contribute more and blend in so not to stand out.

I wouldn't say so. His behaviour, especially that question-avoiding attitude, reminds me of Gwath's first performance as a wolf. Also throwing around random suspicion which, when asked to elaborate, has no grounds, is a thing I have seen wolves do before.

Originally Posted by Nog

I wonder why Agan was so keen on defending him???

I would call it neither being keen nor defending - I think I only said I want to hear more from Gwath before forming an opinion. I accused sally of her opportunistic-looking suspicions, and although Gwath's vote was a bit weird, I don't find it a sole reason to accuse someone of.
I don't think much can be even gathered from the votes, since if the baddies don't have a team (as they don't seem to have), they can vote with honest reasons as well.

My case against Gollum was probably longer and richer in content than all his posts that far. I gave him a chance to reply to me, and although he said he'd make a list of suspicions and things, he apparently didn't find my points against him worth commenting. I'm pretty positive I'm going to vote him today.

Originally Posted by Mac

#245+#253 - Aganzir doesn't know what to do with her, then calls her defense of me unsuspicious.

Correction - #245 was the post where I summed up Lalaith's thoughts. It was she who didn't know what to think of Kit, not me.

I just came home from school and want something to eat. I'm planning to go and watch Der Baader Meinhof Komplex today, though, so I might be back only after that.

edit: xed with Gwath

[Macalaure]

Correction - #245 was the post where I summed up Lalaith's thoughts. It was she who didn't know what to think of Kit, not me.

Oops, sorry about that.


Alright, I have to vote really, really early today, because I don't know whether I'll be able to check in again before the deadline.

Groin - is he actually still playing?
Aganzir - innocent
Gollum - would have gotten a share of my scrutiny today... if I had the time.
Nogrod - who knows, who knows...
Brinniel - that one point above is not enough to justify a vote for her, but I'm looking at her.
Sally - has escaped my attention today, but will hopefully not do so again tomorrow.
Shasta - no alarms
Gwath - merits a closer look, too, I think. There some kind of a bad vibe.
Rikae - innocent
McCaber - who can tell?
Fea - probably innocent
Lily - unsure, but tending innocent
Eomer - most suspicious-looking of the lot

++Eomer of the Rohirrim

[McCaber]

It's quiet... too quiet. I'm not sure I have anything to say about the night. At least only one kill went down.

My question is who would have a reason to kill Nogrod? (I only ask about Nog because other people have done the Kitanna bit) I don't have an answer yet, but I think it's a worthwhile question.

[Groin Redbeard]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

Groin - is he actually still playing?

I know, I suck at this game. I've been focusing on getting my GPA up lately and have lost interest and time for this. I expect that this will be my last game so I'm just going to vote right.

++Rikae (she and Mac are lovers!)

[Rikae]

We seem to have a smart ranger. I wonder if the ranger noticed what I noticed today. I certainly hope so.
On another note:
I did a double take at Nogrod's first post - I found it very hard to believe Nogrod would make such an error. I thought it had to be a bluff (although with the second post too, it borders on unsporting to feign ignorance in that way). If he's still alive toMorrow, he's going to look very suspicious (but since he probably won't be, meh).
Gwath, you can vote for me, but you can't stop me from playing the way I like. I'll throw jokes in wherever I feel like it, in this game, and the next, and the next... actually, I probably won't be able to play in the one after the next, but anyway. Actually, your second point about me is quite good, except that I'm not actually that clever. Or maybe I don't think you are all that stupid. Or something.
Macalaure is looking better to me, primarily because of his reactions to accusations and the fact that he seems more calm. However, I'm not going to completely trust him - lately his wolf skills have been improving in every game, and in the last, he was able to avoid his usual wolfish nervousness.
Gollum is on my reindeer in a major way and I may just vote for him myself. McCaber is also a nasssty little hobbit (these days, however, the idea of casting a vote for Mc-anything gives me the heebie jeebies ( at Gwath)). Eomer and Brinniel both have somewhat of a sneaky feel about them - I'll look over their posts again if I have the time.

EDIT: X'd with Groin -now, that's lazier than lazy. If we really have so few baddies, we can afford to just lynch him and be rid of him, right? He may even be hiding beneath the lazy act.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I assumed I'd take my exam, defend my term paper proposal, put together my midterm portfolio (and hand it in) and get back and be utterly mystified as to what's going on due to the flurry of activity I've missed.

Except I haven't missed much.

Originally Posted by Rikae

I found it very hard to believe Nogrod would make such an error. I thought it had to be a bluff (although with the second post too, it borders on unsporting to feign ignorance in that way).

I found that hard to believe as well, but I find it harder to believe that he'd sit around for over a half hour waiting to fake-correct his 'faulty' logic while at any point during that time somebody could come along and make him look guilty as sin.

[Gwathagor]

Ok, ok! I had an idea during class. We might be able to figure out whether or not Nogrod is of the enemy.

Obviously, he is not a member of one of the two (am I assuming too much?) lover pairs - the one that tried to kill him. He may be part of the other group, though, the one that killed Kitanna. And, an analysis of his stance towards Kitanna while she was alive might help us figure out whether or not this could be the case.

I will make an effort to do this later this evening, if no one else does so first, but right now I have to go do some schoolwork that's due in a couple hours.

Also, at the risk of becoming a one-trick pony, I will defend Nogrod on YET another issue: I did not find his earlier self-correction particularly suspicious. I think it seems characteristic, well-intentioned, and honest.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

Ok, ok! I had an idea during class. We might be able to figure out whether or not Nogrod is of the enemy.
......
And, an analysis of his stance towards Kitanna while she was alive might help us figure out whether or not this could be the case.

I will make an effort to do this later this evening, if no one else does so first

Okay. Just don't use your energies on that, anyone of you. Try to be sensible, people.

I know it's easier to look at something that has been discussed a lot than try to figure out totally new openings, but sorry guys that's what we need to do now, to find new openings. We haven't lynched a single baddie and our numbers are falling rapidly.

Look: one of the lover-teams tried to kill me last Night and were denied it. Do you think they would pick a different victim for the next Night now as they know I can't be protected any more? Do you think they say: "Well, we missed a kill last Night as he was protected but toNight he will not be protected... hmmm, what to do? Heck, let's leave him be and let's risk another failure"? So I'm a goner already just on borrowed time to the end of this Day. I understand you have no reason to believe I'm innocent (though you should... ) but that doesn't matter toDay. I know this may sound awkward but think about it and be reasonable: all the effort you spend on analysing or discussing me toDay is hurting our effort of getting a lover-pair for us which we need to start doing pronto.

I try to do what I can toDay. If you're not willing to trust me toDay you can look at my posts toMorrow with the knowledge of my innocence.

So let's concentrate on things that can actually help us.


And btw. it's like in great novels or movies that facing death one is able to speak his mind openly.

I admit I have been a bit careful with some people this far as I both like to play with them and I do know from experience that suspecting most of the people at the same time will easily lead one to a premature death. But now as the grave is already laid I can speak what I actually think with no self-preservation in mind and with no hope of getting a chance to analyse them better at some future date and to have fun with it then.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I agree that we should leave Nogrod alone for today.

BUT, I'm also finding Gwath's rabid defense of him to be... wacky.

[Nogrod]

I'll start with the easiest one.

Originally Posted by Groin Redbeard

I know, I suck at this game. I've been focusing on getting my GPA up lately and have lost interest and time for this.

Now if he is a baddie it would be a stinking victory and I can't bring myself to believe Groin would be such a low level character.

So I'd say Groin is innocent and speaks honestly and his staggering amount of 6 posts kind of underlines the point he's making. So let's not lynch him.


Well, then I'm torn between the idea of going through all of the game or trying it some easier way... OMG, it would take ages to go through all of this...

[Rikae]

Gwath, Nogrod's right - there isn't much point in looking at him - except in the strange event he's still alive toMorrow (after all, who knows what's going on here...). I just thought I'd mention something that jumped out at me.

Shasta... yeah, Gwath is wacky. I found his attack on me wacky to begin with, and his semi-retraction of it toDay more so. I don't see it as particularly wolfish, though... straightforwardly speaking, do you?

Oh, and since I seem to be in the position to be the first to mention it: happy Halloween, everybody. Even those of you in countries that lack it - I'm going to force this aspect of American culture down your throats! Mwahahahahahaha!

[A Little Green]

So sorry, dearies, RL is keeping me more busy than I thought. I'll try to get time to read and post and vote, but am not at all sure I'll be able to. If no, then good Night to everyone - if yes, then we'll see later on toDay...

[McCaber]

Rikae - Happy Halloween indeed. One more excuse for uni students to party against the law and maybe almost riot. I love my town.

Nogrod - if you can do that for everyone, you have my complete respect. Even for whoever you choose, that's a task.

One thing I find a small bit weird is Gwath. I can understand coming on strong to defend someone, but I think that's almost overkill.

Greenie - have a good night then, at least.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Even those of you in countries that lack it - I'm going to force this aspect of American culture down your throats! Mwahahahahahaha!

Agreed. I'll need to vote early tonight since I'm being forced to attend a party for most of the night...

I just have no idea who to vote for.

Groin - assumed innocent
Aganzir - dunno. probably innocent
Gollum - absolutely no idea. reindeer. worrisome for that reason.
Nogrod - probably innocent
Brinniel - no clue
Sally - forgot she was playing
Shasta - no clue
Gwath - presumed innocent
Rikae - not sure, leaning toward not-so-innocent
Mac - rational, but i fear him on principle. could go either way.
McCaber - no clue
Fea - I know my exact role. I'm pretty cool, I assure you.
Greenie - no idea
Eomer - where are you, my dear? I'm going to kill you for being quiet pretty soon.

See, this isn't good. I think the entire village is either innocent or invisible.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by McCaber

Nogrod - if you can do that for everyone, you have my complete respect. Even for whoever you choose, that's a task.

I'm afraid I'm going to fall short on these expectations...

I mean Groin was the easiest one as I said.

I'm getting similar kind of vibes from Greenie as well. The problem though is that we don't know how many baddies we're after here: four, six, eight? If eight, we should remember there would be more baddies than goodies around and so one should suspect everything that moves and especially everything that doesn't...

And with regards to Greenie I do have to look back before saying anything more definite about her for she has been one of those flying completely under my radar this far.

Luckily the baddies are after each other as well... unless there is some twisted scenario laid by Di working behind our - I'd say justified - beliefs...

EDIT: X'd with Fea... and yes, happy Halloween to all!

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Feanor of the Peredhil

Fea - I know my exact role. I'm pretty cool, I assure you.

Are you hinting at something or what? I'll take it your joking, though.


Like Fea, I really can't make up my mind. Either the players are not showing themselves, or I can't accuse them of anything for want of evidence. I keep one or two under observation, but that's as far as my suspicions go.

Oh yeah. Agan, what was your case against me? I didn't have time yesterday or whenever it was to search for it, and I don't now. If you could possibly lay it out simply, aside from your other 5,000 posts, it would be a great aid for me to go into it.

[A Little Green]

Okay - I'm going to sleep in an instant and though I've read the Day through I have no time to really think about it... Again, I'm really really sorry for this. I promise to show my face more toMorrow if I'm still alive. Good night and Night and happy Halloween.

[Brinniel]

Sorry...I've been reading through this thread throughout the Day, but I haven't had time to post until now. Though I notice posting's been rather slow...I blame it on Halloween. Lucky for you guys, I have no social life and will remain around for the rest of the Day for the most part. Yes I'm pathetic, but I suppose playing WW is a perfect way to spend Halloween.

Will be back to post something of actual substance in a little while.

[Nogrod]

I'll speak open my suspicions right now (no, I have not been reading through the whole thread or made a careful analysis on it). Let's see if they change or if I get any ideas to go and look for things from back there. It would help if some others posted as well...

I'll check the votes after this though to remind me of the key events and give me some perspective to these initial thoughts - even if the votes will not be so telling at this time as there is no one team and no baddies have been lynched yet...

Aganzir (53 posts)
She sure has been around and only for that we probably should leave her be for sooner or later no one will talk here. That said, I'm a bit inclined to think she is jumpy indeed like someone suggested earlier. I mean she really is careful to answer every single point made against her. A bit too interested that is? And there has been no heavy suspicions over her and she still is alive...

Shasta (31)
Interesting he has that many posts as I have no clear view of what he actually thinks about the situation.

Brinniel (27)
She feels calm and involved in a reasonable way. Maybe that's the reason I should suspect her?

Mac (24)
His rally against me yesterDay was just strange and the way he sticked to it was downright ridiculous. I'm aware of the possibility that there might be personal feelings involved as I know I'm innocent and he jumped on me on nothing. His insistence to speak it out aloud that he still suspects me toDay haven't lessened my suspicions as he is an experienced enough a player to see what the Nightly actions meant. Also the whole interaction between him and Rikae worries me.

Fea (22)
As I said on Day1 already, her helpfulness and business-likeness on Day1 looked worrying. After that she has gone back to her normal stuff - more or less. At the same time something bugs me and something tells me I should trust her.

Rikae (21)
I've been a bit worried about her all the game but she was one I decided not to discuss about for not gaining too many "bad feeling" votes on myself. I'm not so worried about her style like some seem to be, but more on her initial "pseudo-attacks" on Mac which have turned into some confidence. Were they a pair of lovers gamewise that would be perfect tactics this far - unless someone pointed it out for the other team to exploit.

Gwath (15)
I must agree with those who mentioned toDay that his speech for my innocence looks weird. I need no defence toDay as I will die the next Night. So a trial for the feel-good factor? I still can't get rid of my suspicion of his firstDay vote that was grounded with "she disagrees me about him". The only thing that makes me uneasy with my suspicion of him is that I have both suspected and voted for the innocent Gwath just too many times.

Sally (13)
One of my top suspicions still and I have made points about her already a few times. Her point of view just shouts a wolf. (Someone defended her yesterDay for that, saying people have said that a few games already... who was it? Have to check back for that if no one remembers it.)

Gollum (10)
His input is so awkward and slight that we might do well to just check him. In a lovers' game it might even pay off?

Greenie (10)
Hides under my reindeer as no one can. I have no idea about her. I really need to look at her.

Eomer (8)
As I said before, his Day1 appearance felt a bit too calculated and he hasn't given me too many reasons to think otherwise. Was it not for the fact that he only has eight posts I'd say let's lynch him immediately. But the passivity of him kind of makes me hesitate about it.

McCaber (7)
Talking about the quiet ones... he's one we should also check out. There's no saying about him. And just because of that he's dangerous. But this is not the first time he acts this way.

Groin (6)
As I said before, his explanation of his actions stated toDay looked sincere and I would not lynch him.



What?

No vote Greenie?
Well adds to my "if she's a baddie she does not deserve to win with that performance" eg. I tend to think her more innocent than not. Although looking at the numbers one would think innocents had more need to fight back...

I mean the question is this: who gives up in a way like that? Personal character and the general involvement in these games is a major factor but I won't go into them too much as I don't want to engage in that meta-game discussion we had yesterDay anymore. But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Look: one of the lover-teams tried to kill me last Night and were denied it. Do you think they would pick a different victim for the next Night now as they know I can't be protected any more?

Ok that's true.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by McCaber

One thing I find a small bit weird is Gwath. I can understand coming on strong to defend someone, but I think that's almost overkill.

It wasn't my fault! I wasn't even looking to defend him, but these thoughts kept presenting themselves in the most persuasive manner and I felt like I had to point them out.

[Nogrod]

I'll be posting the voting-lists here so everyone can see them. Thanks to Brinn I only had to update the Day2 voting...

I have italicized the known innocents in the voting and underlined them from the final tally to make the tables more informative.

DAY1
Eomer: ++Rikae (Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Rikae (Rikae 2)
Greenie: ++Groin (Rikae 2, Groin 1)
Mac: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1)
Eönwë: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1)
Lommy: ++Eomer (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 1, Eomer 1)
Lalaith: ++Legate (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 1, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Aganzir: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1)
Legate: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1)
Fea: ++Mac (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 2, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gollum: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1)
Gwath: ++Fea (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1)
Rikae: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 1, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Nogrod: ++Kitanna (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Shasta: ++Aganzir (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 3, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 2)
Brinn: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 4, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)
Sally: ++Lommy (Rikae 2, Groin 1, Lommy 5, Legate 2, Eomer 1, Kitanna 2, Mac 1, Fea 1, Aganzir 1)

Didn't vote: Groin, McCaber

DAY2
Greenie: ++Gollum (Gollum 1)
Eomer: ++Kitanna (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1)
Aganzir: ++Fea (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1)
Eönwë: ++Nogrod (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1)
Mac: ++Groin (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1)
Fea: ++Rikae (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1)
Kitanna: ++Eonwe (Gollum 1, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eonwe 1)
Rikae: ++Gollum (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eönwë 1)
McCaber: ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 1, Eönwë 2)
Gwath ++Rikae (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 2)
Gollum ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 3)
Shasta ++Eönwë (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 1, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 4)
Brinn ++Fea (Gollum 2, Kitanna 1, Fea 2, Nogrod 1, Groin 1, Rikae 2, Eönwë 4)

Didn’t vote: Sally, Groin, Nogrod, Lalaith


And to add something I had not noticed before...

Originally Posted by Sally at the end of Day2

I don't feel comfortable voting toDay; I hope that's all right. I've been (sort of) reading the thread but haven't been comprehending a whole lot. Basically, I don't think it would be fair for me to shoot out a vote just for the sake of voting; it makes more sense to abstain for the Day and give myself a bit of a chance to catch up so I'll be better prepared (assuming I'm alive) toMorrow.

That kind of removes her as well aside from my top suspicions... (And if she's a baddie she does not merit the win. That's all I can say.)

Darn, I have already three "feeling innocents" from those not posting too much! We're doomed...

EDIT: corrected Gollum's votes.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

(Someone defended her yesterDay for that, saying people have said that a few games already... who was it? Have to check back for that if no one remembers it.)

I believe it was Shasta who said it.

Speaking of Shasta, I'm still worried about him. Towards the end of the Day I was a bit hesistant about my suspicions of him, but then his vote looks suspicious. I need to keep an eye on him toDay.

Sally, I'm not sure about. We didn't get a lot from her and she chose not to vote yesterDay. I would like to hear more from her, but unfortunately it seems RL is keeping her away, as she stated in the admin thread. For that reason, I doubt I'll be voting for her...I just hope she shows up a lot more toMorrow.

While the protection of Nogrod cannot confirm whether he's innocent or not, I'm more inclined to believe the former. His initial reaction may have included errors, but he sounded honest enough. I think the squabble between him and Mac is more likely a back-and-forth between two innocents than anything.

I agree with Nogrod that Groin's probably an ordo. To just give up would otherwise indeed be rather unsportsmanlike.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But in a situation like this, would it be an ordo who would decide just not to vote or one of a pair of lovers? That indeed is a question.

That's a good question. I don't think we can really eliminate either possibilities. Though if a player missed a vote multiple times, I would start to doubt the idea of them being a lover.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

In defence of quiet players, there's a whole lot of stuff posted in this game, and not much of it has been interesting. Especially all those early accusations -- "Oh, this is SOOOO suspicious!" -- that made no sense whatsoever.

Forget it. I'm not going to post lots just because you guys have some sort of prejudice. Historically I've been in between loudmouth and medium. Generally if there's a busy village, like this one, I'll shut up and let everyone else slaver away.

And also, like a few others obviously, I've been very busy recently. I'd just like to remind some people that a player is not obliged to post more than once a day in normal werewolf games. I think this game is the same.

Anyway, I've seen Mac's arguments against me and I don't see how it's worth my bother. Anything can look suspicious in this game. If he wants to believe that I pre-emptively slew the supposed seer Kitanna then let him. It's sort of far-fetched, though not a crazy theory.

Nogrod, I am calculating. Thanks for noticing. I like surviving past the first couple of days.

I'll post again soon with thoughts on last night's actions.

[Gollum the Great]

Just pointing this out, Nogrod: In your Day 2 list you show me getting voted twice and then write me down as being voted once. I take it you just forgot.

[Aganzir]

Mac, what are your reasons to think I'm innocent?

Originally Posted by Gollum

Oh yeah. Agan, what was your case against me? I didn't have time yesterday or whenever it was to search for it, and I don't now. If you could possibly lay it out simply, aside from your other 5,000 posts, it would be a great aid for me to go into it.

I think you should bother to find the posts I have accused you in yourself. I don't remember where they are so it's almost as big a job for me as it is for you. Besides how are you going to know who to suspect if you don't read their posts? Based on initial feelings on day 1?

Originally Posted by Nog

I mean she really is careful to answer every single point made against her.

Because from my point of view points made against me are generally bad.

You're going to get a bit fewer posts from me today since I'm pretty tired and therefore slower than I'd usually be.

edit: xed with Brinn, Eomer & Gollum

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Aganzir

I think you should bother to find the posts I have accused you in yourself. I don't remember where they are so it's almost as big a job for me as it is for you. Besides how are you going to know who to suspect if you don't read their posts? Based on initial feelings on day 1?

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Actually, your second point about me is quite good, except that I'm not actually that clever. Or maybe I don't think you are all that stupid. Or something.

The reason it is a flawed point is that if you were evil, you still couldn't be certain that Lommy was not also evil, i.e. she could be a member of an opposing lover pair.

[Gwathagor]

Originally Posted by Gollum the Great

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

If you don't answer people's objections, what reason will they have not to vote you? It would seem logical to defend yourself.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I haven't got the time to search through 10 long pages for 1 case against me.

Anybody else put off by this weird exchange?

[Gwathagor]

Just A Little.

[Gollum the Great]

Originally Posted by Gwathagor

If you don't answer people's objections, what reason will they have not to vote you? It would seem logical to defend yourself.

Most certainly it would. But one objection is not enough for me to spend an hour or something reading, thinking, and writing. As a matter of fact, I should probably get off WW now and work.

[Gwathagor]

But you've posted so little that that ONE objection makes up about a third of the extant scholarly opinion regarding you.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Just looking through yesterday's Nogrod-related posts. Trying to understand why he was attacked. I mean, Nogrod? Loud, always in your face, guaranteed to start trouble and get lynched Nogrod? Doesn't make sense. Has to be a reason.

I can't see anywhere where he gives an indication of giftedness. Maybe he was killed because he was onto Mac and A Little Green.

His post #311. He also suspects Kitanna but she's obviously innocent. An important point here is that neither Mac or Greenie garnered a vote on Day 2. Maybe those two lovers thought Nogrod had sufficient power to bring them down on the next day, so they could quietly do away with him while the coast was relatively clear.

And this has nothing to do with Mac's vote for me, before anyone claims it. I'm not looking so much at behaviour; rather building theories from the few facts we have. Lo and behold, Mac's name was right there in Nogrod's post.