Survivor: The Second Age

[the phantom]

I think we should vote to irritate you just for proving it wrong!

So, it is your desire to irritate and vote against the person who has been trying to provide you with accurate information? How absurdly stupid.

You see, Jenny, this is exactly why I am the phantom. Everyone else is too inept to measure up.

++Elrond who listens to Monkey-Advice

Wow. That's really convincing. Especially when you realize that there was no monkey, and that Elrond really didn't take anyone's advice besides his own and Gandalf's. Elrond and Gandalf pretty much had already decided what to do and didn't really take the advice of the others. Instead, they convinced the others to side with their superior wisdom. Elrond was a leader.

[JennyHallu]

Elrond was a manipulator, who probably thought of himself as The Elf.

EDIT: And willful blindness is a powerful thing...those who meddle in it must be cautious.

[the phantom]

Completely wrong, Jenny. Elrond did not think of himself as "The Elf". In the books, his lack of self-praise and cockiness compared to other Lords and his readiness to admit when something was beyond his power is part of what makes him so unique.

[Eonwe]

Back from a long absence on this thread (WW, of course, left me stripped of all free time, even that devoted to other portions of teh 'Downs), I will way in here.

This is a bit of a different game. Many of the contestents are somewhat obscure, at least to me. Therefore, it is hard for me to form any very concrete convictions on who should stay and who should go.

However, I have assembled a list of those that I do have strong fealings about, and these are as follows:

Celebrimbor: He really must command a postion of great respect. This is not the age of tortured, convoluted and tragic personalities sacraficing all that is beautiful in a vain lunge for a fleeting hope (ie. Feanor, and the Three C's). This is the age of reconsiliation, where the son will redress the wrongs of the father.

Celebrian: I like her. Though she never is granted an appreacance, as far as I know, in any histories, she still commands a place among the great. But for her, the race of Men would be sadly diminished.

Cirdan: Would you really denign one so great and steadfast as Cirdan a place in the finals? One who, along side, Galadrial, has fought the "long defeat" and not in the super-nova bursts, again, of other tragic figures such as Feanor. He is a steadfast rock, picking up the pieces of the fallen, gathering the lost and the weary.

Anarion: A great man of his age. Hereis a stalwart champion of the cause aganist Sauron and his minion, the Witch King.

Sauron and The Witch King: What are we here for, but to defend against the suble encroachment of evil?

[mormegil]

But the one point I want to quickly make is that we are talking about the Second Age Elrond here. The same one who was a follower and obeyed when told to retreat. Elrond grew in wisdom and lore but in the Second Age he wasn't as great. He was more of a vassal then a true leader.

[Eonwe]

Morm, who would you have leading this? Gil-galad is not present, or has been voted off already, by a vile lynch-mob imflambed by rabble-rousers. Same for Elendil and Isildur. It seems as Elrond is the only one left...

[The Only Real Estel]

I'm going to go off in a different direction here and vote ++ Fangorn (Treebeard)

I mean, come on he’s a complete disgrace – he can’t even remember what his woman looks like!!!

[Kuruharan]

Announcer: And we’re back to Second Age Survivor brought to you by Stompa Exterminators. Whenever your house, flet, hole, or many pillared hall of stone is infested with pesky varmints, Remember Stompa Exterminators!! “We’ll stamp out the problem!!” I’m joined here in the booth by my good friend Bob.

Color Commentator: Hello.

Announcer: Bob, what do you make of the continuing action?

Color Commentator: I…ahhh…what lovely music…I wonder where it is coming from…

Announcer: I believe it is coming from that fellow over there. His queer long coat from heel to head is half of yellow and half of red. He himself is tall and thin, with sharp blue eyes, each like a pin. He has light loose hair, yet swarthy skin. Hmm…most strange. I wonder where that came from?! Anyway, he seems to be playing upon some sort of strange pipe. All the rats and mindless children seem to be following him wherever he…Bob? Bob?

Color Commentator: I must follow the music…

Announcer: Bob! Get off the field! It is not safe down there!!

Color Commentator: …the muuusaakk…

Announcer: Great! Now we have to decide if Bob is a rat or a mindless child. Unfortunately, I now have no color commentator to do my thinking for me. Hmmm…it is a bit of a catchy tune…such…lovely…muuuusaakkk….

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by a phantom

Yes, yes, I'm always so kind and subtle when arguing, aren't I?

Ah yes, I had rather forgotten that irony is sometimes unappreciated across the Atlantic.

Originally Posted by a phantom

So, because 33% were elves, you voted for them 70% of the time?

And, because most of the rest were Numenorean Kings, you voted for them every time you weren't voting for an elf?

I'm sorry, Sauce, but I won't be fully convinced that you aren't anti-elf until I see you vote for one of the Other Speakers, or a man without elf blood.

Predictable as ever, too, I see.

You just don't get this show, do you?

Had I and other like-minded people not voted in the way that we have, I calculate that Elves and Numenorean Kings would now comprise over two-thirds of the remaining contestants and be well on their way to comprising 100%. Which would be rather dull.

I appreciate that this is how you would like to see it but, and you might want to sit down here because this will come us a bit of a shock, not everyone shares your opinion and neither should they.

The point is that the Elves and Numenorean Kings, as a group, started out with an unfair numerical advantage. I have simply been seeking to redress that imbalance.

But you are right. I should not always vote for Elves and Numenorean Kings. So I will vote for a Half-Elf instead.

- - CIRDAN
+ + ELROND



It was the "tra-la-la-lallies" what done it. And, in the Second Age, he was a mere flunky. Not a worthy winner at all.

[Celuien]

Originally Posted by mormegil

But the one point I want to quickly make is that we are talking about the Second Age Elrond here. The same one who was a follower and obeyed when told to retreat. Elrond grew in wisdom and lore but in the Second Age he wasn't as great. He was more of a vassal then a true leader.

Yes, but with the benefit of our position on the space-time continuum, we can see his potential for the Third Age. Where would the world be if we voted out the Einsteins, Beethovens and other giants before their greatness came to fruition? Nowhere.

I'm actually quite tempted to vote with The Wolfman Sauce. There are valid points to be made about Cirdan's uselessness. But such an earth-shattering event might cause the show to implode.

And so

++ERENDIS

Eomer is correct. Her selfishness renders her an unworthy candidate.

EDIT: I see that Sauce has changed his vote to Elrond. No chance of agreeing there. The Universe is safe.

[Anguirel]

I declare Amandil the save-Elrond vote-suggested and endorsed by the only unprejudiced and trustworthy member of the Alliance, Lalaith...

Seriously, people are about to prefer some has-been Numenorean Valar-licker to the must subtle of the Wise, who harboured a refuge of joyful song and scholarship in hard times.

Defend Tra-la-lally's place in Canon.

Vote Amandil-an act which will follow the hypocrite Saucey's stated intention to balance the tribes, by lessening the over-mighty Elendili.

[the phantom]

in the Second Age, he was a mere flunky. Not a worthy winner at all.

Being second in command to a King instead of King does not make someone unworthy in any way. They are still the same person.

If we use your logic, we should vote off all non-kings, yet I doubt that is truly what you want to see, Mister Pan-Man.

It was the "tra-la-la-lallies" what done it.

Wait a minute. Your previous quote claimed that what happened during the Second Age was what was important, and yet here you try to use as evidence something that happened in the Third Age.

You can't have it both ways. Only one of those rather poor arguments can be used. One disqualifies the other.

[JennyHallu]

Since I am your pet werewolf...ok

--Elrond

++Amandil

(wait a second, I thought it was following you that had me voting for Elrond. Wasn't that your monkey?)

[Anguirel]

I was defending Cirdan...not attacking Elrond...

phantom, are you ready for another profitable partnership? (Notice my cunning diplomatic non-use of any article, definite or indefinite...)

[The Saucepan Man]

Wait a minute. Your previous quote claimed that what happened during the Second Age was what was important, and yet here you try to use as evidence something that happened in the Third Age.

Tsk tsk, a phantom. You think that the tra-la-la-lallying only started in the Third Age?

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I declare Amandil the save-Elrond vote

Ah good, a win-win.

[Kuruharan]

Ah good, a win-win.

pssst...you're not supposed to tell them when they are being manipulated.

[Anguirel]

Ah, Kuru. I was hoping to see rather more of you last night. I was wondering if you'd read certain sections of the De oratore Ciceronis...?

You would derive enormous profit from them, you know...

[the phantom]

phantom, are you ready for another profitable partnership?

Well, I'm hoping that enough members of this thread are smart enough to vote for a candidate that makes sense. I really hate to gang up on someone this early.

But, as the day goes on, if a worthy candidate continues to be threatened, you can count on my support, though I'd rather make someone else the save-Elrond candidate. Getting rid of Erendis would appease Eomer, and maybe get him on our side. Fangorn is a pretty boring candidate, and wouldn't be missed by me. And I still think Ohtar needs to go.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

pssst...you're not supposed to tell them when they are being manipulated.

Doh!

It's just too easy, though.

[Kuruharan]

Ah, Kuru. I was hoping to see rather more of you last night. I was wondering if you'd read certain sections of the De oratore Ciceronis...?

You would derive enormous profit from them, you know

Alas, last night I had a date with a Robert Browning tale...another moral you might consider pondering...

[Anguirel]

Fra Lippo Lippi?

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?

No deal!

[Kuruharan]

Fra Lippo Lippi

Well, actually…however, I doubt if you would see the applicability (or humor) of that particular remark...a phantom probably wouldn’t either…

Alas, that was not the tale I meant.

...although, now that I think about it, the two notions I've had could be tied together.

[the phantom]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?

I suppose I could help preserve Treebeard for a short time, but do you really want Treebeard to win this thing?

If so, then I guess there can be no deal. Too bad.

[The Only Real Estel]

O Phantom! You try to suggest a partnership and then bash Treebeard immediately?

No deal!

Hey, who said the partnership was with you?

Actually, I myself wouldn't mind being somewhat on your side, Eomer, but how can you support a scumbag like Treebeard?

[Diamond18]

As of right now these are the fast paced and ever changing stats:

Amandil: 3 votes

Elrond: 2 votes

Erendis: 2 votes

and 1 vote each for Celebrimbor, Fangorn, and Orophir.

Amandil leads? No, no. In defense of Amandil, he was the leader of the secret faction that opposed Ar-Pharazôn in its earliest stages. This was a great risk!

Originally Posted by Tolkien & Son

Yet there dwelt still a remnant of the Faithful, as has been told, at Rómenna and in the country near, and other few there were here and there in the land. The chief among them, to whom they looked for leading and courage in evil days, was Amandil, councillor of the King, and his son Elendil ...

Also, it has been said that voting Amandil off gives him what he wants. But consider that it was a great risk to journey to Valinor, and indeed we don't even know what happened to him. He headed for Valinor to try and save mankind, not because he thought he'd be drinking martinis with Manwë, after all! And the thanks he got? He could be dead at the bottom of the ocean for all anyone knows. So saying that he would desire to leave the game is fairly ungrounded, he only left Númenór because he was desperate to save Númenór and was willing to die trying.

Originally Posted by Tolkien & Son

"...But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful. And as for the Ban, I will suffer in myself the penalty, lest all my people should become guilty."

This game is not about saving men, ergo no reason for him to leave.

I don't want to see Elrond go, first of all he has a really cool name, and second of all he was one of the last great Elves to remain in Middle-earth, so I don't see him as much of a quitter. The tra la la's are pretty damning, I must admit, but for now at least I would rather see more of a sideline character go, such as:

+ + Erendis

[the phantom]

A very fine defense of Amandil, Diamond.

Anguirel- please consider Erendis as your candidate.

[Eonwe]

++Erendis

I really don't know how this guy is. Maybe I'm Middle-Earth deficient. Either way, I like the other ones better than this.

[lord of dor-lomin]

+ + Erendis

She's probably the best choice of those that have votes. I mean, what did she do, besides get angsty and bitter in her later years?

[Gil-Galad]

++Anarion the head smashed in


lay his broken body to rest already

[Kuruharan]

I'm going to cast a vote against somebody who broke the rules in order to beg for mercy for everybody breaking the rules. A greater spasm of illogical thinking you'll never find (outside of this thread and werewolf).

++ Amandil

[the phantom]

Ha ha! Very good, Kuru. When you put it that way, Amandil looks like as good a choice as Erendis.

[Diamond18]

Seems to be a dead heat between Amandil and Erendis, with four (4) (IIII) votes each!

But come now, can you see Erendis risking her life to save others, misguided rule-breakers though some of them might be? Let he who has no sin cast the first stone, after all.

EDIT: Oops, silly me, I forgot to count my own vote, which puts Erendis at five (5) (IIIII) votes! Things are looking up.

[Kuruharan]

H.A.G. will be greatly displeased if Erendis is voted off. She is practically the poster child for everything they stand for...

The producers are hovering on the edge of hysteria (again)...

[mormegil]

++ Amandil

The name makes me think that he's the Dill Pickle of Aman and that just isn't kosher with me. Also it will make things interesting. Besides he didn't have any particular authority to go to the west. He calls himself 'faithful' and yet breaks the ban himself. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

[littlemanpoet]

I choose three keep this a dead heat, five how can we have a true bitter fivemer lovers' quarrel if we don't keep it even? So....

++Erendis

.....erhereis at the Erendis of all erthingsis.....

And if you desire further erudition as three the reasons five voting five Erendis to leave the Third Age (yes I know but inflation being what it is ), see above reasonings which I found quite plausible and pausible, not to mention passable and decidedly impossible; and a little implacalbe come three think of it. So there. Well, Fivemendacil, is this reason enough?

[Formendacil]

The Tenth day of voting was a day of wheeling and dealing. Votes were shifted back and forth, and several candidates appeared as fully possible lynchees. In the end, the voting fell as follows:

Oropher: I
Anárion: I
Celebrimbor: I
Círdan: I

Elrond: II

Amandil: IIIII

Erendis: IIIII I

Eomer of the Wargs let out a great cry of victory at the eviction of his least-favourite candidate, while H.A.G. plotted his assassination...

Originally Posted by A Diamond in the Rough

May I be so bold as to inquire, Form, which of the 4 Celeborn votes would have made the cut under your more stringent tallying? Most importantly, would mine have?

Actually, it's my policy to keep them secret.

The main reason being that, since my "stringent" form of tallying votes has no consistent criteria, I don't want arguments about who's vote is legit and who's isn't.

That was the idea yesterday, anyway. Today I simply cannot recall whose names made it...

Oh, and Spawn, thanks for pointing out the Spelling Error regarding Oropher. Clearly, my thoughts do not dwelling on Sindarin princes...

Those remaining:

Tribe of the Noldor:
Elrond Peredhil
Galadriel
Celebrimbor

Tribe of the Sindar:
Celeborn
Círdan
Oropher
Celebrían

Tribe of the Númenoreans:
Elros Tar-Minyatur
Tar-Míriel

Tribe of the Elendili:
Amandil
Elendil
Anárion
Ohtar

Tribe of the Other Speakers:
Narvi
Fangorn (Treebeard)
Fimbrethil

Tribe of the Baddies:
Sauron
The Witch-king

Day 11 may now begin. Vote away! The Elendili and the Sindar continue to have the most remaining candidates. The Baddies, however, are now tied with the Númenoreans for losing.

[mormegil]

++Elrond

Agent Elrond must go. He's not that wise yet, he's not funny, he's has limited personality. He's just not working out and it's time to let you go.

[Anguirel]

++SAURON

Don't you want to see the Witch-King giving Mordor an Angmar-style makeover?

Compare the Witch-King's destruction of Arnor to Sauron's failed invasions of Gondor.

It's clear that as well as having a more interesting character and being a Man, not some intoxicated spirit, the Witch-King has vastly, vastly more Dark Lord potential...

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You'll notice I never used that reasoning myself. I thought it was senseless, but seeing as they were voting a way that didn't bother me I didn't see the need to say anything. Got it?

Of course I get it, but I still think that it's a bit unfair to grumble only against JennyHallu just because she voted for a character you like. But that's not essential here, so never mind.

And, wow, you actually looked up Vilya in the Encyclopedia of Arda? I honestly didn't think you had thought this thing through that much. I suppose I should give you some credit for that, though your information is wrong. According to the appendix in LOTR, Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond". But Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

Also, Rivendell was founded only four years after the three Elven Rings were hidden, and we know Vilya was originally given to Gil-galad.

What! The day when the Encyclopedia of Arda is wrong, the skies will rain crickets and Finland wins the Eurovision Song Contest!

Let's see... I quote you, phantom:

Gil-galad "before he died gave his ring to Elrond".

Rivendell was founded in 1697, nearly 1,800 years before Gil-galad's death.

I don't see how these two sentences would rule out the possibility that Elrond used Vilya to found Rivendell. And as long as I don't see the contradiction, I keep using the Encyclopedia of Arda as my source material against Elrond.

Not to mention the fact that Rivendell was founded while SAURON HAD HIS RING! During that time, the elves DIDN'T USE THEIR RINGS. So even if Elrond somehow had Vilya in his possesion during that time, he didn't use it.

So, no- Elrond did not use Vilya to found Rivendell, no matter what your precious encyclopedia may say.

Well, my precious encyclopedia says:

"Elrond remained in Rivendell, where he prospered with the aid of the Great Ring, Vilya."

and

"It [Rivendell] lay in a deep valley in the western foothills of the Misty Mountains, and endured, under the protection of Elrond's Ring Vilya."

So, at least at some point Vilya was used. Whether it was used when Rivendell was founded or not, it is not so important. Anyone can put up a tent in some valley and call it a refuge.

I think you should be willing to change your vote just out of respect for the facts I've brought up. And if not for that reason, you should change your vote because it pains me to see someone so beautiful make such an ugly decision.

*hopes flattery will work*

I think you should be willing to vote for Elrond just out of respect for the facts I have brought up. And if not for that reason, you should vote for him because it pains you to see me voting a different character than you.


++ELROND