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#361 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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As we're about a week out from the first episode airing (or maybe multiple? I've not heard how they're planning to release the series), a few procedural-type questions:
- What are the key sources for the non-Numenorean parts of the Second Age? There's "Galadriel & Celeborn" in UT, and the start of "Of the Rings of Power" in Silm; are there any other major sources? - I feel like it would be sensible/reasonable to have a thread in Movies for each episode, similar to the Chapter-by-Chapter threads in that subforum of Books. Does that sound okay, or are there enough objections that we should either keep it to this thread or make a single "Rings of Power episodes" thread? - Given that there are a lot of people who have said they won't be watching the show but are still engaging with the discussion, would it be helpful for the episode thread (whatever that may be) to include a brief synopsis rather than just reactions? Not a scene-by-scene or anything, just a summary of "Galadriel did this, the Harfeet did this, Tom Bombadil did this". (Wait, has anybody speculated that the Stranger in the Meteor might be Tom Bombadil??? I think I'm onto something!) - Does the Downs have a consensus on how to handle spoilers? For anyone who doesn't know, you can make text invisible <spoiler>like this</spoiler> by replacing pointy brackets with square ones. I can imagine any combination of "do that to big spoilers", "mark the whole post as spoilers", "mark the entire thread as spoilers", "have a spoiler and non-spoiler thread", and "who cares". ![]() hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 08-25-2022 at 06:43 AM. |
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#362 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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As I understand it, and I may be wrong about this, Amazon acquired the rights to use information in the LoTR appendices only, not anything in the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales or HoME. I wonder how Amazon dealt with rights conveyed to Saul Zaentz, which would have included characters, names, etc. from the text of LoTR.
Feel free to open threads to discuss events in the series or episodes within this forum. I expect that it is not necessary to remind everyone to be respectful to other members regardless of your individual views.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#363 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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What I'm really thinking is when discussing the plot, being able to distinguish between things Tolkien wrote, things Tolkien made clear didn't happen, and things Tolkien never said anything about - regardless of whether the showrunners were allowed to use it. For Numenor, that will come from Akallabeth and the Description (plus Lost Road if I'm feeling saucy); but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything obvious in the non-Numenor sections. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#364 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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Based upon what I have seen so far, that may be a prodigious undertaking, but you are welcome to do so.
Please open new threads for your discussions, either by episode or subject.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#365 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,358
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![]() As one of those people who might watch some of the show to start at least, but probably not right as it comes out, I think it makes sense for each episode thread to be one giant spoiler - in the sense that don't open the thread if you don't want it spoiled, and talk freely once you're in it. But elsewhere on the Downs it might be courteous to hide the bigger spoiler elements. I am also a fan of the brief synopsis in the first post for all the reasons you said. Whether one giant thread or many small ones... uhh, hard to say. But it wouldn't be wrong to do many threads, I think, even if each one individually might only get so many responses.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#366 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 85
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Morbid Cluck as Guardrail The Terrifying
I don't know if I can get this image link thing working correctly, but:
![]() When my Taiwanese wife saw this picture she immediately pointed to the long blond braid dangling down in front of all that armor nearly to the waist and noted how easy it would be to grab the white chick by the hair, wrap it around [their]* throat, and strangle [them]* with it. * transgender, non-binary pronoun corrections for the now unacceptable "her."
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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#367 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,352
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Michael, on the other hand, sailors in the British navy during the Napoleonic Wars and earlier were proud of their long braided hair regardless of the possibility that their locks might be used against them. Fashion was and is a passion...
Galadriel, my strong preference for threads regarding the series is individual and separate by subject or episode or both as appropriate. Sprawling threads with a general subject matter are neither reader nor poster-friendly. I would much rather hear peoples' thoughts than have members' eyes glaze over at the volume of what must be read in a single thread.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#368 |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 85
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All Aboard the Rainbow Ferry
As a veteran of Uncle Sam's Canoe Club (a.k.a., the U.S. Navy) I recall lectures in Basic Training (in 1966) about how our navy differed from that of the British which -- according to Lord of the Admiralty Sir Winston Churchill -- ran on "Rum, Sodomy, and the Lash." I wonder how General/Admiral Guardrail the Terrifying will handle those LGBTQ+ [not to mention pronoun] issues as [their] [Rainbow] Ships pass out of and back into The West.
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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#369 | |
Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 85
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Jaded Jewelry
For those whose "governments" haven't outlawed access to anything and everything "Russian," see: https://www.rt.com/pop-culture/56145...peter-jackson/
For others, I'll post the article here: Quote:
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"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic." -- Tweedledee |
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#370 | |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 616
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#371 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I don't recall any strict policies on spoilers. When threads opened discussing The Hobbit movies when they hit theaters, the thread opener always started with a spoiler warning and the posters followed suit if their posts contained spoilers. Having a **Spoiler Warning** in the thread title I would guess would be sufficient to let us know this thread will contain spoilers. I prefer simplicity to out right forbidding spoilers, or blocking the text out. But, I won't be the one starting the episode discussions, I'll just be reading and hopefully interested in the series enough to share my opinions.
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#372 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#373 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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(Simon: so committed to his grandfather's legacy that what did he do with inherited the First Edition copy of The Hobbit JRRT had inscribed to his beloved Aunt Jane Neave - a specific bequest in the Professor's will? ... he flogged it at auction. His falling out with his father was reportedly over Simon's eagerness to play ball with the Jackson movies, and the impression I get of the man -which, in all fairness, may be an impression created by the press - is that he's all about the money).
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 08-28-2022 at 05:59 PM. |
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#374 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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And, here is a masterful riff on the unending cliches. Priceless!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGr0PhNO5LM
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#375 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Heaven's basement
Posts: 2,466
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My, how things appear at a distance. ![]() As stated elsewhere, I didn't like many of PJ's changes to LotR, but (1) at least someone attempted to put the books to film, and (2) not everyone has the same 'vision' when reading Tolkien's works. I appreciated his work on LotR much more once I saw The Hobbit, and saw how bad it all could have been. Having given it more thought, I'm now more definite about watching RoP. Maybe it won't be what I would have done, but maybe that's a good thing (as I'm not a filmmaker or storyteller by any degree). Going to wait and see. Maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised.
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There is naught that you can do, other than to resist, with hope or without it.
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#376 |
Laconic Loreman
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Hullo, alatar, good to see you around. I look forward to reading your opinions.
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#377 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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I have to say, after two decades of being VERY critical of the Jackson movies, I have softened towards them- largely because until recently I didn't appreciate the force of the argument "It could have been so much worse." Now I fear we are getting a taste of so much worse.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#378 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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Because, as is usually the case, a preference for an astigmatism or nearsightedness would most always trump glaucoma.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#379 |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
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I re-read LotR book V lately, first time in a long time, and my opinion of the Jackson movies went the other way. I'm now inclined to agree with Christopher Tolkien: Jackson butchered the story.
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#380 | |
Emperor of the South Pole
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: The Western Shore of Lake Evendim
Posts: 616
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It will be nice to see opinions of those who actually watch the show instead of all the 'I hate it already because of (choose one or more): 'Amazon is evil', 'woke BS', 'It's not true to the Peter Jackson movies', 'It's not true to individual head-canons' 'etc. ![]() ![]() |
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#381 | |
Laconic Loreman
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I cut out the rumors, and news for several months now and have stuck with watching the trailers. Since the blow up/freak out over Sauron looking like Eminem (which as far as I can tell, ended up not only being an over reaction, but untrue) I just stopped paying attention to whatever supposed leaks people were putting out there.
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#382 | |
Wight
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch
Posts: 219
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I will give Jackson credit where he gets it right, or even improves. Boromir (although as much credit needs to go to Sean Bean here), the "many that live deserve death" speech was well done, Aragorn's pep talk before the Black Gate. But his natural inclination to turn everything into a crash-bang spectacle got the better of him more often than not, and fatally so on the Hobbit movies. Regarding RoP, I've been round the block, this isn't my first rodeo. I've seen the Internet Hate Machine swing into action on other properties before, and what's happening here is nothing that hasn't been seen before. Deciding to hate something before they've even seen it, attempting to play the "paid shill" gambit, these and others are all old, old tactics. Tolkien's snipe about people reviewing the book rather than reading it rings true.
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#383 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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Thanks to all who helped answer my questions; if I happen to be the one to start the episode 1 discussion thread, I think I now know how to do it.
![]() An interesting article just crossed my internet: A Tale Conceived Epically from Tolkien Guide looks at Tolkien's responses to adaptations in his lifetime to see how he might have reacted to Rings of Power (and indeed every other adaptation). The conclusion: he would have detested it, torn it apart if given a chance to critique it - but taken the money and approved it anyway. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#384 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 362
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Looking through the end credits, despite the showrunners name dropping Tom Shippey at the SDCC, I did not find him credited.
The "loremaster" credit (along with assistant writer) is someone named Griff Jones. Anyone heard of this guy?
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Tar-Elenion |
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#385 | |
Laconic Loreman
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https://writers.coverfly.com/profile/griffjones And I had to type in "Griff Jones Tolkien" to get this to pop up. Because apparently there's a well known "Griff Jones" who is a comedian.
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#386 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 362
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Thanks. I just got the comedian when I googled the name, but I did not use Tolkien, but rather Rings of Power which only led me to an article in which the actors said they would go to him for a deep dive.
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-04-2022 at 10:26 AM. |
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#387 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
Posts: 2,506
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#388 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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It strikes me that Amazon's use of 'diverse' casting was brilliant. No, not in any sort of dramaturgical or artistic way, or even really in a political way: but as a tactic it has been quite successful.
Here was Amazon's problem: they knew going in that they were working with the bestselling English-language book in history, and following the insanely successful movies; there was a truly massive fanbase out there. But they also knew that they were going to be selling what the bulk of fans would consider rubbish, and the backlash would be terrible. How to defang it? The answer was cynical but brilliant: discredit the fan protest by by setting it up for the label of "racist." Deliberately go, not just for 'diverse' casting, not just illogically diverse casting (multi-racial communities and even marriages, in a 'medieval' setting), but then intentionally choose actors who were going to make a big deal of it. Yes, actors' personalities are a definite factor in casting. Peter Jackson knew that he was looking at a three year fairly isolated shoot, and has stated sought actors who would get on together and even bond, in which he mostly succeeded. Here, Amazon's people went for actors who would be aggressively forward with their ideology, starting with Lenny Henry, long known as an outspoken activist. This was the setup. The fans were goaded, the fans protested, and Amazon lowered the "racist" boom which has been successfully seeded throughout the media coverage, and used to rhetorically nullify the fact that viewers hate this POS (30% on Rotten Tomatoes). And yet- Henry and Nomvete and Cordova and the rest, in their assertive ideological earnestness and occasional indignation, seem completely clueless as to the real situation: that they are tethered goats. Back in the day, tiger hunters would tie a goat to a post in a jungle clearing, and wait for the tiger to pounce so that they could blast it. And is that not precisely the mechanic at work here?
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#389 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#390 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Well, consider what Disney did with Oni-Wan Kenobi: there they used artificially manufactured racism, by singling out 5 troll comments out of 10,000, in order to claim they were under "racist attack" and thus handwave away the bad reviews. That was clearly deliberate; and I don't think Amazon is any less cunning than Disney.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#391 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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Most people are too egotistical to genuinely believe in their hearts that people are going to hate their works enough to pre-plan to take advantage of that hatred. Again, you may be right, but I find it quite odd, in a general sense, to accuse people of being so incompetent that they can't re-write or adapt (in this case) Tolkien's works, even when mutilating it, in an interesting way and at the same time believe that they are so shrewd to utilize the negative reaction to their work to their own advantage.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#392 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Hmm. Nobody but Tolkien can write Tolkien. His mind was, in addition to being brilliant and astonishingly well-educated, unique. His work is inimitable. Whereas manipulating TV ratings and reviews only requires the sort of low animal cunning which is plentiful in the industry. Compare, e.g., the tremendously effective Oscar-campaign strategy developed by Harvey Weinstein, whom nobody would take for any kind of 'genius.' Even if the showrunners and producers and PR people were egotistical enough to think they could match the Master, they would have been very aware that they only had rights to the Appendices, and therefore would have to be diverging sharply from the canon, and therefore almost certainly had to be anticipating fan backlash.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#393 | |
Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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#394 |
Laconic Loreman
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Amazon is taking steps to protect the Rings of Power by implementing policies that will halt the phenomenon of "review bombing."
https://www.avclub.com/amazon-review...-ri-1849493204
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#395 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,307
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Translation: silence the critics.
A comment from YouTube: "Beware of review bombing, which is,"The practice of blaming negative reviews on audience bigotry when showrunners and other creatives where so preoccupied with inserting ideopolitical messaging that they forgot the fundamentals of story structure, character development, and screenwriting in general.""
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 09-05-2022 at 04:06 PM. |
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#396 | |
Laconic Loreman
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The most damning reviews are the ones I've seen from members here, who I know are fair minded and thoughtful with their opinions...like Lommy, Eomer and elsewhere Agan who say it's boring. There is a seedling in Episode 2 that the series can get right, imo, if they continue with the theme. It's something that Jackson botched with the movies and Episode 2 touched on it with Elrond and Durin. That is the theme of Elven immortality vs the mortal races. How the races view the world differently causing strain between them, Men's fear of death, and Elves' motivation to preserve their way of life, "unchanged and unmarred." It will be wise for the series to pursue that theme more, but I have little hope the script writers will do the topic justice.
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#397 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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It occurs to me that a non-spoilery review of the first episode (only one I've had time for) would probably be handy for people who are considering whether to watch the series. Adapting this from my spoiler version:
Episode one ("A Shadow of the Past") is not as faithful as I'd hoped, but nowhere near as bad as people anticipated. There's been a lot of impressions based on the trailers, and even in this episode it's clear that the trailers don't show everything. One thing it is is very pretty. Valinor looks like Valinor. The swan-ship looks like a swan-ship. Lindon is like Movie!Rivendell writ large. There's an "old farm" in the Harfoot sections which is exactly the kind of place you'd like to stumble on exploring a wilderness. Even the small things have had a lot of thought put into them - I flagged an elvish ladder which the propmakers clearly designed as if it had been grown as a single tree, shaped over a decade or more. It does owe a lot, visually, to the Jackson movies (LotR, not Hobbit), so if you didn't like the style there you probably won't here either; but for me, it feels like being in Middle-earth of the Second Age. That feeling doesn't always extend to the characters. The absolute stand-out stars here are the Harfeet, who are utterly believable proto-Hobbits (and adorable besides). But while Galadriel is a believable Galadriel (if you can accept that the woman who fought fiercely at Alqualonde might possibly pick up a sword once in a while), most of the features male elves have a weirdly craggy look to their faces, though their costumes are usually pretty good. The mortal village swings a little too far into "medieval people wore mud and rags" at times; but based on the trailers, I have high hopes for the Numenorean costume design. A fair few people have been talking about "inserting ideopolitical messaging" and the like, but honestly, Episode One has none of this. The only argument I can see being made is that the existence of non-white people, or of Galadriel acting like some sort of "man-maiden" or something ( ![]() The storyline has some canonicity issues. A lot of them stem from what Bęthberry has quoted in another thread - the legal requirement for the writers to not only not use the Silmarillion, but to actively work to make their story not look/be inspired by it. In places, they achieve this by being deliberately vague, but there are places where their storyline and interpretations fly in the face of, if not the text, at least the most likely intent of Tolkien's work. That's probably a good thing for their ability to actually tell a story - to take an extreme example, a Fall of Numenor which tried to vague its way around anything in Akallabeth would have to be completely plotless - but it does mean the Tolkien content is reduced. "The book Tolkien never wrote" is not an accurate description of this show. Viewed apart from Tolkien (which is hard to do in places), the story is... fine. It falls firmly into the "first episode setup" genre, establishing characters and settings rather than giving us anything to chew on. The characters mostly follow their character as established in the show - I only counted two particularly irrational acts, one of which was highlighted as politics, the other an act of desperation. The elves have the air of smug superiority which you'd expect from the Noldor at their second peak, and there's one moment where Gil-Galad's response to Galadriel is very definitely "I'm the High King, but you are my terrifying aunt and I really hope you don't make an issue of it". I'm not great at judging dialogue or acting, but I had no problem with it. There are some beautifully delivered lines in this episode, several of which showed up in the trailer. It's clear that Galadriel is the main character, and I think Morfydd Clark can carry that role. There's enough characters who aren't stuck in the Tortured & Harrowed mindset that the ones who are don't drag it all down. And the Harfeet are a positive delight. Overall, my expectations have lowered slightly, but I enjoyed it, and will still watch the second episode when I get the chance. It works. It's fine - and I hope, when the plot gets its feet under it, it can graduate to "good". hS
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#398 | |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 362
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Or was it the second?
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-06-2022 at 10:38 AM. |
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#399 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,989
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As for the elves, I "read" Galadriel's comment to Elrond that he has not been invited to the high table because that is for elf lords as suggesting the arrogance of elves (which is highly attested to in Tolkien's work) about Elrond's status as only half-elven. I suspect we will see Elrond earn his status as elf lord just as we will see the peoples of Middle-earth come together. very Tolkien that.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#400 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
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hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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