**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S2E8 - "Shadow and Flame"

[Gil-Galad]

Another season finale and another post full of thoughts. This time around I decided to wait for the ending before compiling my thoughts for this season, which i will add below and edit as I go along.

I filled out all my thoughts and the page timed out, so i lost it all and will have to find time and energy to re-write and re-think all my thoughts later.

Quick thoughts on this episode:

- Durinsbane was long known, but the rise and fall of the Durins was done quite well.
- Dark Wizard told us what we already knew and then left with nothing new, thus making him and the stranger/harfoots storyline a bit flat.
- Oh yeah Numenor was there too

[Oddwen]

Uh oh, is prince Durin going to collapse the mine on himself and his father?


Drums in the Deep!


There are so many really thin walls in Khazad-dum.


He was a burned dwarf.


"Pity will not defeat Sauron" - hahaha.


Sauron's thinks he's showing off, but he's just being a conjurer of cheap tricks.



Nothing really new in this episode. The strongest and the weakest parts were no surprise. RIP Celebrimbor. Now that was a well-done prophecy.



So do uruks/orcs have free will or not? Did all of them decide to turn on Adar at once? Why not turn away from Sauron immediately since it only took like ten minutes to betray them?

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

Dark Wizard told us what we already knew and then left with nothing new, thus making him and the stranger/harfoots storyline a bit flat.

Very disappointing. Ciaran Hinds is no slouch as an actor and he was wasted this season. Maybe he'll be the "Adar" level large bad next season?

Originally Posted by Gil

I filled out all my thoughts and the page timed out, so i lost it all and will have to find time and energy to re-write and re-think all my thoughts later.

I am sorry. I've had that happen too many times to count.

[Formendacil]

The final episode--and my least tardy one! Only took the whole "season" (which I feel needs to be in quotation marks, because 8 episodes a season is not).

1. This is a broad previously on (which makes sense--gotta wrap it all up, but still a bit jarring after the narrow focus of Episode 7).
2. Are we going to see Durin's Bane? (that would end up being "yes")
3. I don't really buy this Khazad-dûm. As a location/set, it is the weakest in the show. The city/homes are fine, but any time they start mining or having rock move in any way, my suspension of disbelief is itself suspended. The "our sun-vents are suddenly covered!" was about the least believable moment of the season.
4. The balrog is still badass after all these years. If there's a "fanservice" moment in the episode, this is it.
5. Wait--does this mean no Dwarf Ring for the Line of Durin?
6. I'm gonna miss the credits music.
7. The Dark Wizard is fun
8. Eärien's point--her trajectory in the story--is unclear to me. Is she just to humanize the King's Men and add some drama for Elendil and Isildur? Is she going to see the error of her ways? Is she going to go full-villain and sink with Númenor?
9. Anárion mention!
10. Shouldn't Elendil already HAVE Narsil as an heirloom of his house? It seems like it's ALMOST being implied in Míriel's words... but the on-the-face reading is that she's giving it to him. And... I don't like it. The whole reason Andúril is important to Aragorn is that it validates him as Elendil's heir. For Elendil, it's just an inheritance of his house: probably one of a handful with a true 1st Age connection, and forged by Telchar so a great blade--but it shouldn't hold importance in Númenor that it will have in Gondor/Arnor.
11. Some faux-Legolas antics there. I kind of appreciate the continuity.
12. Gondolin reference makes me happy for reasons to do with having read The Hobbit at age 9. There's no word DEEPER in Middle-earth legend to me.
13. Lord of the Rings. Well... okay, I guess. But... it's kind of just a line for the sake of saying the line.
14. I thought Pelargír was Andúnië for a moment--but on closer view, no. I guess we're saving Andúnië for next season.
15. Theo sort of needs to be a Nazgúl to have a point... but I'd kind of rather he didn't.
16. This romance with Isildur is more boring than Theo's bromance with him. It's based on what: two half betrayals?
17. No passage for low men. <- despicable, but that is sort the right use of it.
18. Well Kemen is definitely going to be a Nazgûl, that seems pretty well telescoped--one of the "three" of Númenórean blood. I don't approve, though: as much as he's a ponce, if he's still alive after the Akallabêth, he's the Heir of Elros: Elendil gets the nod not JUST as leader of the Faithful (though that's sort of the realpolitik reason, in-universe)--it's ALSO supposed to be because the stars sort of aligned that the leader of the Faithful is ALSO the "heir"--of Elros, of Eärendil, of the whole promise of Lúthien's blood in Men. It's why Aragorn matters later--and we've had hints of this with Elrond, and it's supposed to be an element of commonality between him and Aragorn. It's a tiny thing... but Kemen being a Nazgûl would mess with that and it bugs me, so I hope we see his comeuppance (also he's nowhere near possessing the gravitas to be the Witch-king).
19. Dutch angles!--also, Adar's "de-aging" is a clever plot point or way to visualise the power of the Three.
20. The knifing of Adar! Even those he and his plot has always been more of a strong suggestion than fully fleshed out, I find that I'm somewhat moved. In part because, unlike every other Elf not named Círdan, he's the only non-Sauron character who has the WEIGHT of the First Age behind him (Galadriel, by being de-aged to be more of Elrond's generation and younger than Gil-galad, loses that canonical quality).
21. Adar's blood is black as his children's.
22. Gil-galad et al captives? I must have missed that last episode... I just saw them losing: you'd have thought they'd have retreated!
23. Arondir not dead? I thought I remember him being stabbed by Adar?
24. While I suppose I'm getting fun vibes from it, what are these ruins--this henge--supposed to be in-story? Is this some ancient building of the Men of Eriador (who are missing completely from this tale)? A Dwarven outpost of ancient Khazad-dûm? Or just a "cool" setpiece?
25. I like how Annatar is Sauron's true form in this shifting scene: it took Halbrand fully fading from mind to get here, but now that that's happened, I fully "buy" this portrayal of Sauron. And there are moments in Vickers's performance where he looks almost inhuman. It's very well-done.
26. Morgûl blade injuries from the crown of Morgoth.
27. Elrond the healer
28. There were a lot of deaths this season! I appreciate that, I think.
29. "Don't be a stranger now" <--ugh, terrible.
30. Grand Elf = Gandalf? Fdffff!!¡!!! <-- I hate this. I really do. Gandalf is one of his NEWER names: the name from the folk of Dale and their kin in Rhovanion. All of his names are in LotR: you're allowed to use them! Mithrandir, Incanus... there are options! At least call him WAND ELF (i.e. Staff Elf)--if that was "grand elf" that's a false etymology, which is basically the Cardinal Sin for Tolkien.
31. So, is the Dark Wizard supposed to Saruman?
32. Durin has a brother? Nor sure Dwarfogeniture would allow a dynastic squabble that way--do we ever seen ANYTHING like that in any of the Dwarven texts? The closest is when Dáin goes off to the Iron Hills to run his own show, or Balin goes to the Moria--but it's always a splitting off, never a challenge to the Heir of Durin.
33. I want a Phantom Edit of this season: just the Elves, with NONE of the Mannish/Harfoot plots.

So, I have my gripes. My biggest gripe is Númenor, which suffers the most from the telescoping of the 2nd Age into however little time it gets. The writing is weaker, the wild mass creating out of wholecloth is far greater. We're losing all the best parts of 2nd Age Númenor (probably because it wasn't in the Appendices): we're losing the glorious arrival of Tar-Minastir, saving the Elves and Eriador and driving Sauron from the field. That, very clearly, is going to be folded into the arrival of Ar-Pharazôn's armada, but that's unfortunate: one is storming the beaches at D-Day, the other is more like Cortez landing in Mexico (i.e. they're both landings, but the POINT of them is supposed to be utterly different). By folding them into one, we're going to lose one--probably the "Númenor at the peak of its glory" version. Númenor never gets a chance to be "the closest thing to Aman that Men get int his world"--just some references to having indoor plumbing.

But, on the other hands, the Eregion plot: Annatar and Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings, even taking into account the narrative liberties taken--and the debts owed thanks to Season 1--were REALLY strong: the casting of Annatar and Celebrimbor paid dividends here, to the point that I think these scenes elevated Season 2 sufficiently for me to say it's better than Season 1. I'm glad they cut back on the Stranger and the Southrons and the Númenóreans in favour of it--I just wish they'd cut back more!

[Snowdog]

Right. On to the last episode... where to start... a mixed bag for me, which kind of sums up my thoughts on Rings of Power in general.

• The highlight of the Season are the scenes between Charles (Celebrimbor) and Charlie (Annatar/Sauron). I had doubts about the look of Celebrimbor, but he brought his A-game to the role. In this episode we see the torment and death of Celebrimbor and I loved it. I loved how it was written. I loved how it was acted. I'm hoping it sets up the orcs taking the impaled Celebrimbor and use it as a banner when they attack the elves. Sadly, as much as I like to think of these awesome scenarios in my head, I'm sure the shallowness of the writers will gloss over it and miss the opportunity like they seem to do. Questions over the lore changes aside however, Charles and Charlie made this their own. It’s the MVP of S2, just as Elrond/Durin was MVP of S1.

• Arondir is still kicking. I hope they do more with this character in later seasons. There is so much potential with that character and actor. Sadly, the shallowness of how he seemed to miraculously recover from his beatdown in Ep 7 isn't explained. Probably the use of the rings and elven healing power ala Elrond in the PJ movies, and such off-camera, but at this point I've come to accept this is how this show rolls.

• We check in on Numenor and it all remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Numenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Numenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andunie in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.

• Gandalf is revealed (yawn) which to me is the worst possible outcome for the two-season investment. The writers could of had a freer slate had he been Saruman, for there has to be a lot of backstory there when he was good and had traveled east. Probably a rights thing especially with War of the Rohirrim bringing Saruman in. It is what it is. There is a weird dynamic going on with Gandalf & the (not Blue because licensing) Dark Wizard. A bit meh on it all to be honest. I really didn’t want the Stranger to be Gandalf. But he is, so meh. With the departure of Nori and the Stoors, maybe the proto-hobbits exit stage right will be the end of the whole hobbit side-plot? For some reason I doubt it.

• Adar is betrayed by his own, proving that karma is a bitch named Sauron. Again, the loyalties seemed fickle as they are in Numenor, but there was some hinting that all was not well with Adar in the minds of the Uruks

• We see Imladris before it becomes settled. The show could benefit with a little CGI to multiply the crowds some... here in Imladris, and in Numenor.

• We see Narsil in Elendil’s hands for the first time. Again, such a moment was seemingly rushed and really didn’t have the sort of impact it should have, but it was still cool.

• We see the Balrog too. Honestly, that scene between king & son, and that final shot of the king going toe to toe with the balrog in the most dwarfish way possible was pretty good. The balrog was deliberately a call back to the movies, and it works in the present -tense with the scene. Problem is I'm not sure how you put the balrog back in the bottle for the rest of the seasons though. Now that he's been disturbed, will he not go on a rampage and trash Khazad-Dum? This tweak of the lore timeline is as problematic as the rings being forged out of sequence. Also, the callbacks to the movies are generally lame and shows the shallowness of the writers. Those done in the stranger/hobbit scenes do not work. At all.

• S2 is much improved on S1. There’s a lot of room for further improvement, though. For instance, given the changes to the lore on Dwarf rings, how on earth are any of them distributed further?

• Will Kemen become the Mouth of Sauron? Hope so since he isn't worthy of being a Nazgul. There are so many callbacks to the PJ fanfic, a beheading would be a fitting end to the guy.

• Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship between him & Isildur, I’m thinking he might become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed for betraying him.

I will make some hopeful predictions for S3 shortly, but I'm still stewing on them. After I re-watch S2 in binge format, I'll likely add/edit this... much of which I lifted from my wife's review elsewhere because I agreed with her assessments. I did clean up the language though. ��

I do have to agree that parts of the series seem rushed. I think what hits the cutting room floor would fulfill some of the seeming shallow quickness that things seem to happen. With 2/5ths of the series done, I don't have many expectations left for the rest. As much as I wanted some depth to the stories, I doubt they will be coming.

IF they are planning to take it up to the Last Alliance battle that kicks off the PJ movies, they will have to accomplish a lot.

In that time:
- Sauron needs to overrun Eriador
- Rivendell needs to be built (maybe Lórien too?)
- Numenor needs to somehow agree to come to Eriadior & bail out Gil-Galad/Lindon under Ar- Phârazon
- Numenor needs to capture Sauron & take him prisoner to Numenor
- Somewhere in all of this, the One Ring needs to be forged
- Sauron needs to corrupt Numenor
- Numenor needs to build a temple to Morgoth & start sacrificing the Faithful
- The Faithful need flee and arrive at Eriador
- Numenor needs to launch their assault on Valinor
- The Valar need to go Atlantis on Numenor
- Sauron needs to bug out back to Middle-Earth
- Gil-Galad needs to form the Last Alliance & assault Mordor
- the Siege of Mordor needs to happen
- Anárion (who has gotten two mentions but we haven’t even met yet) needs to be introduced so his death in this conflict means something
- Elendil, Gil-Galad need to die fighting Sauron
- Isildur needs to take up his father’s sword and sever the One Ring from Sauron’s hand
- The argument between Elrond & Isildur in Mount Doom needs to happen
- Isildur needs to be slain and the One Ring lost.
- Arnor and Gondor needs to be founded, because Pelargir is little more than ruins.
- Osgiliath, Minas Anor, and Minas Ithil need to be built.
- The seven and the nine rings need to be handed out.
- Oathbreakers need to be cursed.
- The Nazgûl need to be created.

I doubt most of that won't even be touched. Anyway, it's fun to hope, and also think of how I would have made the forty episodes.

[Boromir88]

Just a minor note before getting into some more details when I have time. Overall, Season 2 was a noticeable improvement over Season 1. I'd say mostly it is because of Celebrimbor and Annatar's scenes, which was far better than Halbrand's/Galadriel's story in Season 1.

I read somewhere that the showrunners have said the Dark Wizard is not Saruman.

It was a bit disappointing seeing Durin's Bane basically look the same as PJ's, but the effect of its shadow-y wings looked much cooler. RIP Durin III I really enjoyed Peter Mullan in that role.

Originally Posted by Snowdog

We check in on Numenor and it all remains confusing, half sketched. They really need to flesh out what is happening in Numenor to land this entire enterprise. Again, I'm hoping they spend more of S3 on Numenor, and I am hoping that with Elendil riding away from the mob scene in Armenelos, he find's Anárion in Andunie in the west. I fully expect to be disappointed though.

From comments made previously by the showrunners, I get the impression they understand the Numenor story far better than Peter Jackson. From interviews they've also said Numenor is their favorite "2nd Age story" and displayed the understanding that Numenor tears itself apart between the factions and Pharazon's desire for "deathlessness." So, they've demonstrated to have a deeper understanding of the source material than PJ's surface understanding. My question still remains if they can weave those themes into a compelling story. Numenor is also the story that suffers the most from the time crunch they have to do.

[Tar Elenion]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I read somewhere that the showrunners have said the Dark Wizard is not Saruman.

The Disingenuous Duo (or McKay) also said this:
DEADLINE: Finally we come to The Stranger and his journey. By the end, he’s called Grand Elf, and shortens it to Gandalf. He also finds the staff we’ve become so used to seeing. He survives the one called the Dark Wizard who proposes the rule Middle-earth together. I thought that was Saruman, but perhaps that wizard comes in later. Talk about the wizards, and the establishment of that signature LOTR character Gandalf.

McKAY: Well, first of all, I would just reflect that I think your assessment of the Dark Wizard being Sauron might be a fairly astute observation.
https://deadline.com/2024/10/lord-of...th-1236106572/

I think the "Sauron" is a typo for "Saruman".

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Form

Grand Elf = Gandalf? Fdffff!!¡!!! <-- I hate this. I really do. Gandalf is one of his NEWER names: the name from the folk of Dale and their kin in Rhovanion. All of his names are in LotR: you're allowed to use them! Mithrandir, Incanus... there are options! At least call him WAND ELF (i.e. Staff Elf)--if that was "grand elf" that's a false etymology, which is basically the Cardinal Sin for Tolkien.

Nori even called his staff "the gand" earlier in the season!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

Nori even called his staff "the gand" earlier in the season!

Oh dear God, was it there before us the whole time?

I am disappointed the Stranger wasn't Saruman--not least because it means we're not going to get Gandalf disembarkening at the Grey Havens: his arrival mirroring his departure.

[Huinesoron]

Blerg. That was not a particularly fun episode. Largely following Wikipedia's ordering here, because who can remember when each scene fell?

• Why is the Balrog about 100 ft tall? Was it that big in the movies?
• The dwarves have been spectacularly one-note this season: either Durin the Lesser or Disa says "we have to fight my/your father", and then realises they can't actually do it. I think this happens literally every episode they're in, and this one was no different.
• Durin leaps pointlessly to his death, with his legs sticking out at weird angles. Luckily, the Balrog is dumb enough to smash a wall and trap itself while chopping him in half in mid-air.
• During the early Stranger/Harfeet scenes, I said the most interesting option would be if they were the two Blue Wizards. The funniest would be if the Dark Wizard was somehow Radagast.
• I'm not sure how dropping a canyon on a bunch of people Stranger literally has never met is going to help, Evil Dude.
• CELEBRIMBOR! DON'T TAUNT THE NECROMANCER!
• Oh hey not taunting the Necromancer is actually plot relevant, huh.
• Did Brim deliberately anger Sauron enough to get him to kill him? Well done, Brim.
• Okay, as soon as he says "Lord... of the Rings", Sauron's eyes go anime-huge. You just know he's going "that's an amazing title, I'm putting that on all my letterheads". I don't think he even registered Brim dying, he was too busy thinking how cool it was.
• Meanwhile In Numenor... Phazzy, if you were just going to randomly murder everyone, why bother with the Trial By Squid last time? Just stab them all and be done with it.
• I did appreciate Narsil being the same sword as in the movies. I can accept it being a gift from Miriel - it's kind of like she's passing the true rule of the Numenoreans to Elendil with it.
• Is this where the Galadriel bits go? I feel like she needs to stop surrendering at every opportunity, she's going to get her rank taken away again.
• Okay, Adar with Nenya was pretty cool.
• I was really worried he was going to reveal his original name as a canon one. My bet was on "Feanor" (who, to be clear, is not actually confirmed dead in the books they have the rights to).
• HA HA ADAR GOT CAESAR'D.
• Galadriel is really quite bad at this swordfighting business. She's getting beaten by a dude wielding a hat, it's embarassing!
• I don't actually think turning into other people would/should distract her. She knows it's him, she can just stab away.
• NOPE GALADRIEL GOT STABBED WITH A HAT. That is the single most lethal hat in all of Middle-earth.
• I did guess she was gonna go off the cliff... is Elwing mentioned in LotR? Because yeah, there's actual precedent for 'jump off cliff with magic jewellery and hope the Valar have mercy'.
• Oh lordy biscuits, the Isildur stuff... MATE THAT'S NOT LOVE. In her case she's barely even pretending. She just wants to go hang out in Numenor!
• Kemen grandstanding on the docks was kind of fun though. If Arondir hadn't gone and gotten himself pointlessly killed on the other side of the map, he could have just shot all the invaders in the face and saved the day. Welp!
• Oh, Arondir isn't dead. He's... fine? Not even injured? Did I hallucinate him being very clearly killed by Adar last episode?
• Elrond begging for the books to be saved was kind of funny. (Also: Sauron probably wanted those books. Whoops!)
• Oh, the dwarves showed up. Way, way too late, and kind of in passing, rather than as a triumphant moment like it should have been.

I think that takes me to the final roundup, so, where did everyone land?

- Nori splits up with the Stranger for... no obvious reason? And only after all the people she could go with have left? After saying she was gonna help them pack but they were too annoying?
- Stranger just finds a staff on the floor, then goes back for a singsong with Tom Bombadil. I would have really respected if that was the final scene of the episode, but alas. (Also, Tom has a hedgehog teapot.) (Also, yes obviously he's Gandalf, we all knew that.)
- Isildur has just... left the girl to go back to where he's the son of a traitor? Why? He's just gonna get locked up back on Numenor.
- Tar-Miriel is in handcuffs. Shame she didn't think to demand to go for a swim again, or some other bizarre legal malarkey.
- We're apparently doing Dwarven politics next time. Also Durin has a previously-unmentioned brother (as indeed does Isildur). Seems to be going around.
- Elendil has failed to take a single other Faithful with him while riding off to the west.
- And Galadriel has been healed of her hat-related injuries by the Rings (as established with Adar's healing), and taken to Rivendell. Rivendell is annoyingly sound-stagey/CGI-river-y, and I really didn't like that they introduced it with people waving swords around and cheering for battle. That's not what the Last Homely House is supposed to be about.
- Galadriel is asked for military advice, gives a waffling speech about sunrises. Gil-Galad waves a sword about. Elrond seems to be distracted figuring out the best place to put a delicately arched bridge, and maybe a patio for any councils he might need to hold. Arondir Was There Also. And why is there a dude in the crowd with Legolas' knives?

I was relatively enjoying the series until these last two episodes, but they were just an unrelenting display of random brutality and blood. That's not what Tolkien should be; his battles were places for characters to show their quality, whereas here, the actions of the characters meant nothing against the stabbing.

hS

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by Snowdog

• Theo, I’m not thinking Witch-King. Given the relationship between him & Isildur, I’m thinking he might become the Lord of the Oathbreakers - those who Isildur cursed for betraying him.

Okay I really like this idea. It would be a nice way to give Theo character development without him just ending up as Another Hero Guy. And it would mean he's in the movies! In green!

hS

[Mithadan]

"The staff chooses the wizard..." OK, was that really necessary? Just a bit of petty thievery...

[Oddwen]

Originally Posted by Huin

NOPE GALADRIEL GOT STABBED WITH A HAT. That is the single most lethal hat in all of Middle-earth.

A Maia being undone by a hat isn't totally unprecedented, Ecthelion of the Fountain killed a Balrog in the fall of Gondolin with the spike of his helm.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Oddwen

A Maia being undone by a hat isn't totally unprecedented, Ecthelion of the Fountain killed a Balrog in the fall of Gondolin with the spike of his helm.

Pedantry Alert

The Balrogs were not Maiar when JRRT wrote this.

That said, I'd agree that Tolkien, in the early 1950s, still meant for Ecthelion's helm to spike a Balrog, given that the helm is described in the updated (but all too soon put aside) Fall of Gondolin (Unfinished Tales). Ecthelion's helm is beautiful, but deadly, especially if one knows the early tale.

But were the Balrogs Maiar even when Tolkien wrote this FOG update?

We know that, despite the emergence of the idea that Melkor could not "make" Orks for example (but must corrupt something rather), in the Annals of Aman as first written Morgoth still "wrought" the Balrogs. In the Annals of Aman typescript (made by Tolkien himself) however, they are said to be spirits that followed Melkor.

Okay.

But here Christopher Tolkien can only guess at the dating of this typescript: he thinks it belongs with the writing of the Annals of Aman manuscript rather than to some later time, although in any case, it includes the idea I'll call the "Numenorean Transmission of Texts".

Anyway, even if what I've said is correct or close to correct (although I could be forgetting something here), one could argue that Tolkien intended Ecthelion to helmet-spike a Balrog even after Balrogs "became" (externally) Maiar.

I mean, why not?

So here's my pedantic and mostly meaningless post!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

FWIW, Ulmo's speech to Tuor feels like it belongs to the period after Tolkien had really re-thought his cosmology, and thus with or after the AAm typescript. No proof that I can point to, just that the atmosphere is really "post-LR." At any rate, I think that after writing the Moria chapters, there was no way that Ecthelion's Balrog was going to be anything less than an epic boss, not one of the disposable mooks of 1917.

[Mithadan]

one of the disposable mooks of 1917

LOL.

Can you imagine the visual effect of an army of slightly downgraded Balrogs attacking an Elvish host? Isn't that a director's dream?