**Spoiler Warning** Rings of Power S2E8 - "Shadow and Flame" - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gil-Galad · Yesterday, 04:19 PM

Another season finale and another post full of thoughts. This time around I decided to wait for the ending before compiling my thoughts for this season, which i will add below and edit as I go along.

I filled out all my thoughts and the page timed out, so i lost it all and will have to find time and energy to re-write and re-think all my thoughts later.

Quick thoughts on this episode:

- Durinsbane was long known, but the rise and fall of the Durins was done quite well.
- Dark Wizard told us what we already knew and then left with nothing new, thus making him and the stranger/harfoots storyline a bit flat.
- Oh yeah Numenor was there too

Oddwen · Yesterday, 09:29 PM

Uh oh, is prince Durin going to collapse the mine on himself and his father?

Drums in the Deep!

There are so many really thin walls in Khazad-dum.

He was a burned dwarf.

"Pity will not defeat Sauron" - hahaha.

Sauron's thinks he's showing off, but he's just being a conjurer of cheap tricks.

Nothing really new in this episode. The strongest and the weakest parts were no surprise. RIP Celebrimbor. Now that was a well-done prophecy.

So do uruks/orcs have free will or not? Did all of them decide to turn on Adar at once? Why not turn away from Sauron immediately since it only took like ten minutes to betray them?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil-Galad

Dark Wizard told us what we already knew and then left with nothing new, thus making him and the stranger/harfoots storyline a bit flat.

Very disappointing. Ciaran Hinds is no slouch as an actor and he was wasted this season. Maybe he'll be the "Adar" level large bad next season?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gil

I filled out all my thoughts and the page timed out, so i lost it all and will have to find time and energy to re-write and re-think all my thoughts later.

I am sorry. I've had that happen too many times to count.

Formendacil · Today, 04:51 PM

The final episode--and my least tardy one! Only took the whole "season" (which I feel needs to be in quotation marks, because 8 episodes a season is not).

This is a broad previously on (which makes sense--gotta wrap it all up, but still a bit jarring after the narrow focus of Episode 7).
Are we going to see Durin's Bane? (that would end up being "yes")
I don't really buy this Khazad-dûm. As a location/set, it is the weakest in the show. The city/homes are fine, but any time they start mining or having rock move in any way, my suspension of disbelief is itself suspended. The "our sun-vents are suddenly covered!" was about the least believable moment of the season.
The balrog is still badass after all these years. If there's a "fanservice" moment in the episode, this is it.
Wait--does this mean no Dwarf Ring for the Line of Durin?
I'm gonna miss the credits music.
The Dark Wizard is fun
Eärien's point--her trajectory in the story--is unclear to me. Is she just to humanize the King's Men and add some drama for Elendil and Isildur? Is she going to see the error of her ways? Is she going to go full-villain and sink with Númenor?
Anárion mention!
Shouldn't Elendil already HAVE Narsil as an heirloom of his house? It seems like it's ALMOST being implied in Míriel's words... but the on-the-face reading is that she's giving it to him. And... I don't like it. The whole reason Andúril is important to Aragorn is that it validates him as Elendil's heir. For Elendil, it's just an inheritance of his house: probably one of a handful with a true 1st Age connection, and forged by Telchar so a great blade--but it shouldn't hold importance in Númenor that it will have in Gondor/Arnor.
Some faux-Legolas antics there. I kind of appreciate the continuity.
Gondolin reference makes me happy for reasons to do with having read The Hobbit at age 9. There's no word DEEPER in Middle-earth legend to me.
Lord of the Rings. Well... okay, I guess. But... it's kind of just a line for the sake of saying the line.
I thought Pelargír was Andúnië for a moment--but on closer view, no. I guess we're saving Andúnië for next season.
Theo sort of needs to be a Nazgúl to have a point... but I'd kind of rather he didn't.
This romance with Isildur is more boring than Theo's bromance with him. It's based on what: two half betrayals?
No passage for low men. <- despicable, but that is sort the right use of it.
Well Kemen is definitely going to be a Nazgûl, that seems pretty well telescoped--one of the "three" of Númenórean blood. I don't approve, though: as much as he's a ponce, if he's still alive after the Akallabêth, he's the Heir of Elros: Elendil gets the nod not JUST as leader of the Faithful (though that's sort of the realpolitik reason, in-universe)--it's ALSO supposed to be because the stars sort of aligned that the leader of the Faithful is ALSO the "heir"--of Elros, of Eärendil, of the whole promise of Lúthien's blood in Men. It's why Aragorn matters later--and we've had hints of this with Elrond, and it's supposed to be an element of commonality between him and Aragorn. It's a tiny thing... but Kemen being a Nazgûl would mess with that and it bugs me, so I hope we see his comeuppance (also he's nowhere near possessing the gravitas to be the Witch-king).
Dutch angles!--also, Adar's "de-aging" is a clever plot point or way to visualise the power of the Three.
The knifing of Adar! Even those he and his plot has always been more of a strong suggestion than fully fleshed out, I find that I'm somewhat moved. In part because, unlike every other Elf not named Círdan, he's the only non-Sauron character who has the WEIGHT of the First Age behind him (Galadriel, by being de-aged to be more of Elrond's generation and younger than Gil-galad, loses that canonical quality).
Adar's blood is black as his children's.
Gil-galad et al captives? I must have missed that last episode... I just saw them losing: you'd have thought they'd have retreated!
Arondir not dead? I thought I remember him being stabbed by Adar?
While I suppose I'm getting fun vibes from it, what are these ruins--this henge--supposed to be in-story? Is this some ancient building of the Men of Eriador (who are missing completely from this tale)? A Dwarven outpost of ancient Khazad-dûm? Or just a "cool" setpiece?
I like how Annatar is Sauron's true form in this shifting scene: it took Halbrand fully fading from mind to get here, but now that that's happened, I fully "buy" this portrayal of Sauron. And there are moments in Vickers's performance where he looks almost inhuman. It's very well-done.
Morgûl blade injuries from the crown of Morgoth.
Elrond the healer
There were a lot of deaths this season! I appreciate that, I think.
"Don't be a stranger now" <--ugh, terrible.
Grand Elf = Gandalf? Fdffff!!¡!!! <-- I hate this. I really do. Gandalf is one of his NEWER names: the name from the folk of Dale and their kin in Rhovanion. All of his names are in LotR: you're allowed to use them! Mithrandir, Incanus... there are options! At least call him WAND ELF (i.e. Staff Elf)--if that was "grand elf" that's a false etymology, which is basically the Cardinal Sin for Tolkien.
So, is the Dark Wizard supposed to Saruman?
Durin has a brother? Nor sure Dwarfogeniture would allow a dynastic squabble that way--do we ever seen ANYTHING like that in any of the Dwarven texts? The closest is when Dáin goes off to the Iron Hills to run his own show, or Balin goes to the Moria--but it's always a splitting off, never a challenge to the Heir of Durin.
I want a Phantom Edit of this season: just the Elves, with NONE of the Mannish/Harfoot plots.

So, I have my gripes. My biggest gripe is Númenor, which suffers the most from the telescoping of the 2nd Age into however little time it gets. The writing is weaker, the wild mass creating out of wholecloth is far greater. We're losing all the best parts of 2nd Age Númenor (probably because it wasn't in the Appendices): we're losing the glorious arrival of Tar-Minastir, saving the Elves and Eriador and driving Sauron from the field. That, very clearly, is going to be folded into the arrival of Ar-Pharazôn's armada, but that's unfortunate: one is storming the beaches at D-Day, the other is more like Cortez landing in Mexico (i.e. they're both landings, but the POINT of them is supposed to be utterly different). By folding them into one, we're going to lose one--probably the "Númenor at the peak of its glory" version. Númenor never gets a chance to be "the closest thing to Aman that Men get int his world"--just some references to having indoor plumbing.

But, on the other hands, the Eregion plot: Annatar and Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings, even taking into account the narrative liberties taken--and the debts owed thanks to Season 1--were REALLY strong: the casting of Annatar and Celebrimbor paid dividends here, to the point that I think these scenes elevated Season 2 sufficiently for me to say it's better than Season 1. I'm glad they cut back on the Stranger and the Southrons and the Númenóreans in favour of it--I just wish they'd cut back more!

Yesterday, 04:19 PM	#1
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Spoiler Warning Rings of Power S2E8 - "Shadow and Flame" Another season finale and another post full of thoughts. This time around I decided to wait for the ending before compiling my thoughts for this season, which i will add below and edit as I go along. I filled out all my thoughts and the page timed out, so i lost it all and will have to find time and energy to re-write and re-think all my thoughts later. Quick thoughts on this episode: - Durinsbane was long known, but the rise and fall of the Durins was done quite well. - Dark Wizard told us what we already knew and then left with nothing new, thus making him and the stranger/harfoots storyline a bit flat. - Oh yeah Numenor was there too __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed. Last edited by Gil-Galad; Yesterday at 04:47 PM.

Today, 04:51 PM	#3
Formendacil Dead Serious Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers. Posts: 3,324	The final episode--and my least tardy one! Only took the whole "season" (which I feel needs to be in quotation marks, because 8 episodes a season is not). This is a broad previously on (which makes sense--gotta wrap it all up, but still a bit jarring after the narrow focus of Episode 7). Are we going to see Durin's Bane? (that would end up being "yes") I don't really buy this Khazad-dûm. As a location/set, it is the weakest in the show. The city/homes are fine, but any time they start mining or having rock move in any way, my suspension of disbelief is itself suspended. The "our sun-vents are suddenly covered!" was about the least believable moment of the season. The balrog is still badass after all these years. If there's a "fanservice" moment in the episode, this is it. Wait--does this mean no Dwarf Ring for the Line of Durin? I'm gonna miss the credits music. The Dark Wizard is fun Eärien's point--her trajectory in the story--is unclear to me. Is she just to humanize the King's Men and add some drama for Elendil and Isildur? Is she going to see the error of her ways? Is she going to go full-villain and sink with Númenor? Anárion mention! Shouldn't Elendil already HAVE Narsil as an heirloom of his house? It seems like it's ALMOST being implied in Míriel's words... but the on-the-face reading is that she's giving it to him. And... I don't like it. The whole reason Andúril is important to Aragorn is that it validates him as Elendil's heir. For Elendil, it's just an inheritance of his house: probably one of a handful with a true 1st Age connection, and forged by Telchar so a great blade--but it shouldn't hold importance in Númenor that it will have in Gondor/Arnor. Some faux-Legolas antics there. I kind of appreciate the continuity. Gondolin reference makes me happy for reasons to do with having read The Hobbit at age 9. There's no word DEEPER in Middle-earth legend to me. Lord of the Rings. Well... okay, I guess. But... it's kind of just a line for the sake of saying the line. I thought Pelargír was Andúnië for a moment--but on closer view, no. I guess we're saving Andúnië for next season. Theo sort of needs to be a Nazgúl to have a point... but I'd kind of rather he didn't. This romance with Isildur is more boring than Theo's bromance with him. It's based on what: two half betrayals? No passage for low men. <- despicable, but that is sort the right use of it. Well Kemen is definitely going to be a Nazgûl, that seems pretty well telescoped--one of the "three" of Númenórean blood. I don't approve, though: as much as he's a ponce, if he's still alive after the Akallabêth, he's the Heir of Elros: Elendil gets the nod not JUST as leader of the Faithful (though that's sort of the realpolitik reason, in-universe)--it's ALSO supposed to be because the stars sort of aligned that the leader of the Faithful is ALSO the "heir"--of Elros, of Eärendil, of the whole promise of Lúthien's blood in Men. It's why Aragorn matters later--and we've had hints of this with Elrond, and it's supposed to be an element of commonality between him and Aragorn. It's a tiny thing... but Kemen being a Nazgûl would mess with that and it bugs me, so I hope we see his comeuppance (also he's nowhere near possessing the gravitas to be the Witch-king). Dutch angles!--also, Adar's "de-aging" is a clever plot point or way to visualise the power of the Three. The knifing of Adar! Even those he and his plot has always been more of a strong suggestion than fully fleshed out, I find that I'm somewhat moved. In part because, unlike every other Elf not named Círdan, he's the only non-Sauron character who has the WEIGHT of the First Age behind him (Galadriel, by being de-aged to be more of Elrond's generation and younger than Gil-galad, loses that canonical quality). Adar's blood is black as his children's. Gil-galad et al captives? I must have missed that last episode... I just saw them losing: you'd have thought they'd have retreated! Arondir not dead? I thought I remember him being stabbed by Adar? While I suppose I'm getting fun vibes from it, what are these ruins--this henge--supposed to be in-story? Is this some ancient building of the Men of Eriador (who are missing completely from this tale)? A Dwarven outpost of ancient Khazad-dûm? Or just a "cool" setpiece? I like how Annatar is Sauron's true form in this shifting scene: it took Halbrand fully fading from mind to get here, but now that that's happened, I fully "buy" this portrayal of Sauron. And there are moments in Vickers's performance where he looks almost inhuman. It's very well-done. Morgûl blade injuries from the crown of Morgoth. Elrond the healer There were a lot of deaths this season! I appreciate that, I think. "Don't be a stranger now" <--ugh, terrible. Grand Elf = Gandalf? Fdffff!!¡!!! <-- I hate this. I really do. Gandalf is one of his NEWER names: the name from the folk of Dale and their kin in Rhovanion. All of his names are in LotR: you're allowed to use them! Mithrandir, Incanus... there are options! At least call him WAND ELF (i.e. Staff Elf)--if that was "grand elf" that's a false etymology, which is basically the Cardinal Sin for Tolkien. So, is the Dark Wizard supposed to Saruman? Durin has a brother? Nor sure Dwarfogeniture would allow a dynastic squabble that way--do we ever seen ANYTHING like that in any of the Dwarven texts? The closest is when Dáin goes off to the Iron Hills to run his own show, or Balin goes to the Moria--but it's always a splitting off, never a challenge to the Heir of Durin. I want a Phantom Edit of this season: just the Elves, with NONE of the Mannish/Harfoot plots. So, I have my gripes. My biggest gripe is Númenor, which suffers the most from the telescoping of the 2nd Age into however little time it gets. The writing is weaker, the wild mass creating out of wholecloth is far greater. We're losing all the best parts of 2nd Age Númenor (probably because it wasn't in the Appendices): we're losing the glorious arrival of Tar-Minastir, saving the Elves and Eriador and driving Sauron from the field. That, very clearly, is going to be folded into the arrival of Ar-Pharazôn's armada, but that's unfortunate: one is storming the beaches at D-Day, the other is more like Cortez landing in Mexico (i.e. they're both landings, but the POINT of them is supposed to be utterly different). By folding them into one, we're going to lose one--probably the "Númenor at the peak of its glory" version. Númenor never gets a chance to be "the closest thing to Aman that Men get int his world"--just some references to having indoor plumbing. But, on the other hands, the Eregion plot: Annatar and Celebrimbor and the forging of the Rings, even taking into account the narrative liberties taken--and the debts owed thanks to Season 1--were REALLY strong: the casting of Annatar and Celebrimbor paid dividends here, to the point that I think these scenes elevated Season 2 sufficiently for me to say it's better than Season 1. I'm glad they cut back on the Stranger and the Southrons and the Númenóreans in favour of it--I just wish they'd cut back more! __________________ I prefer history, true or feigned.