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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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Glorfindel
This is the first draft of the chapter Glorfindel in the part The Black Years.
Basic Text is that of Glorfindel II in HoME 12. The markings are: BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part. GLOR-SL-zz for GLORfindel, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
BY-HL-10: I don’t think there is much to say about the title, but we might discuss here if we want to include this at all. GLOR-SL-01: I mark here just the start of the insert. GLOR-SL-02, GLOR-SL-04, GLOR-SL-05, GLOR-SL-06, GLOR-SL-07, GLOR-SL-14: This is JRR Tolkien talking about his story writing and has to be removed. GLOR-SL-03, GLOR-SL-11, GLOR-SL-14, GLOR-SL-17, GLOR-SL-18: A footnote with a comment of Christopher Tolkien removed. GLOR-SL-08 & GLOR-SL-09: This is Tolkien speaking about his own texts changed into a neutral statement about what the text says. GLOR-SL-10: As Christopher Tolkien in his commentary, I have no idea why here Turgon is named. But in the scope of the project this must either be considered as a slip of the pen or as a proposed change unworkable. GLOR-SL-12: The note referred to here is from JRR Tolkien, but it reads: ‘The duel of Glorfindel and the Demon may need revision.’ Since this is a kind of reminder for farther work, we can not take it up. GLOR-SL-13: The note referred to here is from JRR Tolkien, but it reads: ‘This is one of the main matters of The Silmarillion and need not here be explained. But in that part of The Silmarillion as so far composed it should not be left to appear that Ulmo, chiefly concerned in the coming of Tuor to Gondolin, in any way acted contrary to the Ban, against Manwe or without his knowledge.’ Since this is a kind of reminder for farther work, we can not take it up. I as well checked the passage in FoG, and I don’t think that any change is necessary, sine Ulmo explicitly said, ‘I seem to oppose the will of my brethren, the Lords of the West’. GLOR-SL-16: Normally we would use the newer text, but here the old one fits better, since we have to remove the commentary like character. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | |||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have some minor comments, most of which remove any 'commentative' or 'ambiguous' wording left in after Fin's edits. I think in Fin's draft it is presented as someone making conjectures about what might have happened, which is not in keeping with the entire rest of the body of work, which is presented as an authoritative story. If it really must be kept ambiguous, then I would argue it should be moved to Volume 3, as a work of Scholarly deduction rather than historical narrative. I do not think this is necessary, and so I have instead edited it further to turn it into a historical account in keeping with all the other chapters.
GLOR-SL-04: I agree with this removal, but in the paragraph following I would make the following change: Quote:
GLOR-SL-07: I would change this thus to remove the ambiguity of the story. I moved the marker slightly earlier. Quote:
GLOR-SL-13/14: I think as Fin left it, it sounds too speculative and conjectural, and so I edited it further, combining 13 and 14 together: Quote:
GLOR-SL-16.5: The entire second-to-last paragraph is Tolkien speculating about when Glorfindel might have returned. It has to go if we are presenting it as a historical fact and not a scholarly essay, and so I have removed it: Quote:
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#3 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I m not sure if the draft ‘presented as someone making conjectures about what might have happened’ ‘is not in keeping with the entire rest of the body of work’. We have already comments and introduction telling about the textual history of what follows. So it is in my view not the case that we have only ‘an authoritative story’.
I think that this difference in the overall approach is at the moment the main point of disagreement between us. Most of the points of criticism ArcusCalion raise are connected to this. So I think we must clear that point first before discussing it again and again in each single point raised. And I think it will have an impact on later chapters as well. For me it was clear that what we as real world editors compile as Translation from the Elvish is in itself a compilation of works from different sources, some of which are pure narratives, some narrative plus later commentary, some more descriptive, some are essay. Early in the project there was an emotional debate about revisions to smooth the ‘style’ of the writing. It sprang from the hard break in style felt between Tuor and his coming to Gondolin from UT and The Fall of Gondolin from HoMe 2, but the decision taken at that time was used ever after. In the result the revisions for reasons of style were denied for this first step of the project. Lindil, the main promoter of the stylish edits, envisioned a second phase of the project in which the once established text would be farther revised to make it more uniform and of higher literary quality, but it was consensus to separate the two steps an refrain from any pure stylish edits. The question at hand is of course not quite the same, but it has some similarities. When we lift some paragraphs or sentences from an essay like Of Dwarves and Men into the body of some chapter of pure narrative we clearly have to adapt them to their new environment. But here we are speaking about full chapters. Okay we adapt them in a way, since we have to change them from essay by JRR Tolkien reflecting about this own creation. But is it not overdone if we change them to fact reporting narrative? I at least approached the edit differently and changed them to essay by some later Middle-earthian writer reflecting about the history of his world. That this is not alien to Tolkiens writing is shown by many examples like The Elessar or The Istari. Often enough in the history of this project we found that ambiguity is our best friend if we can handle it. That does not mean, that we should not try to find out what ‘really’ happen in Middle-earth. And if we are able to make that out (by unanimous consent) we should try to make it as clear as our rules and the texts we are working with allow. But the team soon discovered that unanimous consent can not always be reached even by endless high sophisticated discussion. So from the start there was a need for some alternative. The simple and at the beginning of the project often used way was voting. This is a nice and fast working procedure for a large team, but is very dangerous for small teams. So the smaller the team became the more we avoided voting. The discussion for building up an unanimous consent became longer, deeper and more enlighting. But since it remains true that unanimous consent can not always be reached, in this process ambiguity became more and more important and – at least from my point of view – our work better: we strove to allow an interpretation of our text that would fit the different ‘personal Middle-earth cannon’ of each team member if we could not change that ‘personal cannon’ by profound arguments. All that said, I am inclined to think any essay by some later scribe gives more freeness for ambiguity than a narrative text can do. And if the style of our basic text is in that way, I am against changing it without farther fording reason. Now to some not directly connected points: GLOR-SL-04.5: Good catch. I didn’t thought about that. I agree on the first part. But do not see any good reason to remove Turukáno here. GLOR-SL-09: Clearly Turgon is often called ‘King of Gondolin’ even before he had could claim the title ‘Highking of the Noldor in Middle-earth’ after the death of his brother Fingon. But I think the interpretation of the text is to narrow here if ‘the decision of their king’ is read as ‘Turgons decision’ after our editing. Clearly the decision is taken by Finrafin (in agreement with Turgons wishes) and that was by what people like Glrofindel were grieved. GLOR-SL-13/14: I couldn’t resist to gain say this particular case in special: How could any narrator of our text being inside the legendarium be sure what had happened in Mandos? He might get a report from coincil of the Valar out of Valinor by some Elve or Maia that was present, but from inside the Halls of Waiting? Or do we suppose that Glorfindel himself would openly talk about his purgatory stay in Mandos? I don’t think so, and therefore ambiguity is for sure needed here. GLOR-SL-14.5: Agreed. Good catch. Respectfully Findegil |
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#4 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I do see your point, but all the same, I would propose a difference. If the uncertain nature of the text and its construction as an analytical text by an in-universe author making speculative comments, would it not be more appropriate to include in Volume 3?
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#5 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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My main point, Fin, is that this text reads as speculative, whereas all the other chapters in the First Age, Second Age, and Third Age narrative read as given fact. As you say, this is not unusual for Tolkien, who likes to sprinkle in some uncertainty to his narratives (see Istari and Elessar). However, my main point of discussion I suppose is the placement of this chapter. If the speculative nature of it is essential (as I think you have argued it is) then I am not opposed to this, but perhaps it would fir better in a section devoted to such speculative and scholarly work, like Volume 3. If you really disagree with that, then I might be persuaded to leave your draft as it is and in the same placement, but I would like to discuss first this possibility. Sorry if any of this has seemed contentious or bitter, I did not intend for that to be the case.
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#6 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I didn't take your arguments contentious or bitter. And I agree that the chapter would fit in volume 3, but I still feel that we should keep it here. My reason for this is not that I think it would fit here better in style (in that I agree that volume 3 would be better for it), but that we need the information given here for a full picture of the history of the second age.
If we postpone this to volume 3 Glorfindel would be virtually non existant in the Second Age. And I see not other way inside our rulls to include him. Respectfully Findegil |
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#7 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I do see this difficulty, and I am inclined to include it here for the same reasons, but the issue is the nature of the document. As it is an analytical text, by its nature it belongs in Volume 3, but due to its content, it would be better to include it here in Volume 2. It's quite a pickle.
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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I dont remember if I had said this before, but have you considered to included in the Second age narrative but as a foot note? That way is how I managed. Ifit works with the project rules.
Greetings |
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#9 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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The complete chapter as a footnote? And where do we place it? Do we have a mentioning of Glorfindel where we could make the reference?
I have some doubts. And as fare as I remember, such footnotes were avoided in the history of the project. Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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The text of Glorfindel is not so great to be bad as a footnote. If is edited to be reduced as a coherent text of his late history can (or could) be introduced as a footnote of an inserted sentence in the main text telling that Glorfindel came...
Is a pity that I cannot have at hand my books and my text to be more precise. But I remember I had many doubts about manage Grolfindel matter and it was for me the best solution. Because I agree with Arcuscalion that is not a text for the narrative. And as a note inother part of the project (read my general notes or your volume 3) for me also doesnt work (in this particular case). Greetings |
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I think this is the wrong way to go. It is a very important text, and would make an incredibly substantial footnote! I would say we must decide where to place it as its own text, although I do see the appeal of the footnote idea, as it solves the two issues I mentioned before. However, it clearly has its own host of problems.
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#12 | ||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I took a look at this chapter. I can see the argument for keeping it where it is, but I can also see the argument for moving it to volume 3. I'm not sure, I will have to think about it more, especially after reviewing the rest of the texts. One question: are we imagining this to actually be Bilbo's texts? Should we take into account the fact that Bilbo probably knew Glorfindel at Rivendell and could get first-hand information from him? Other than that broad question, I only have one specific comment:
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#13 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I like this change actually, I agree with gandalf's comments that it is currently an awkward start to a chapter, and this edit makes it much smoother. Personally, I think I am in favor of including this here and now. I would, however, use a different editing marker: GLOR-SL-02b and just include the removals into the existing GLOR-SL-02. This cleans up the text.
As for what the in-universe nature of this project is: simply, it's presented as Bilbo's official 'Translations from the Elvish' compiled from various sources around Rivendell. The books are said to have been added to and edited by Findegil, a scribe of Gondor during the Fourth Age, and in that format were preserved in the 'Thain's Book,' a copy of the Red Book of Westmarch containing the TftE, LotR, the Hobbit, and a large amount of unwritten material about Hobbits etc. Because Bilbo was compiling his work from a compilation of older sources, it follows exactly the format which we ourselves use in this project for the creation of our drafts. As to the question about Bilbo and his access to Glorfindel personally, this is true that he indeed had access. However, the TftE were (in the universe) transposed to Gondor, then in an unknown progression through around three or four more Ages till finally Tolkien supposedly found the Book and translated it. Thus, not all the chapters and notes in our text are necessarily required to be written by Bilbo himself. They may very well have been added at a later date by Findegil or unnamed other authors in the long unknown line of descent of textual preservation. (Of course, the real in-universe question of 'what is canonical is more complicated than this project can address. This project attempts to create an official 'canon' in the same way that CT did when he made the Silmarillion, and applies a universal standard to a varied body of texts to create a single unified narrative.) |
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#14 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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I agree to the change in general and like ArcusCalions simpler denotation. But is it right to use past tense for the verb ‘mean’ in this circumstances? I think it must be present since for everybody who knows the language ‘Glrofindel’ does still mean ‘Golden-tressed’, or not? So my suggestion would be:
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Respectfully Findegil |
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Findegil, you are right about using the present tense for "mean". I assumed discussions about whether the text is in-universe had already taken place, but I could not find them. I will look through the topic you linked to.
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#16 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Ah, my bad Fin, I was unaware of this idea. This makes more sense as it avoids a sticky in-universe justification for the edits we make.
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#17 | ||
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 43
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#18 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,715
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You are right we have to eliminat that repetition. What about this editing:
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Findegil |
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#19 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Aug 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 43
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Looks good to me!
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