Akallabêth

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of the chapter Akallabêth in the part The Black Years.

The is no Basic Text in this chapter is of course from the Akallabêth out of the Sil77, nonetheless and I will give source information for each part that is used. There are big parts used from The Lost Road in HoMe 5.

The markings are:
BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part.

AK-SL-zz for AKallabêth, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text.

AK-HA-zz for AKallabêth, History of the Akallabêth, to document all reconstruction to the original text. I will normally not comment on these.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert.
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason
/example/ = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next.

BY-HL-16<Akallabêth Akallabêth
> AK-SL-01<Akallabêth In this Age, as is elsewhere told, … nor did he forget the aid that Tar-Minastir had rendered to Gil-galad of old AK-HA-01 , in that time when the One Ring was forged and there was war between Sauron and the Elves in Eriador. … and he withdrew from the coasts.
Yet Sauron was ever guileful, … he began to assail the strong places of the Númenóreans upon the shores of the sea AK-HA-02 <History of the Akalabeth but Umbar he could not yet take>.
In those days the Shadow grew deeper upon Númenor; … And the AK-HA-03 {nineteenth}<History of the Akalabeth twentieth> king took the sceptre of his fathers,… But worse was yet to come. For Ar-Gimilzôr the AK-HA-04 {twenty-second}<History of the Akalabeth twenty-third> king was the greatest enemy of the Faithful. … that still came secretly to the west-shores of the land.
Now the Elendili dwelt mostly in the western regions of Númenor; … and the havens of Andúnië were forlorn.
Highest in honour after the house of the kings were the Lords of Andúnië; for they were of the line of ElrosAK-HA-05<History of the Akalabeth [Footnote to the text: And they took names in Quenya,as did no other house save the kings.]>, being descended from Silmarien, daughter of Tar-Elendil the fourth king of NúmenorAK-HA-06 <History of the Akalabeth [Footnote to the text: And in their line the sceptre would indeed have descended had the law been in his day as it was later made. For when Tar-{Ankalime}[Ancalime] became the first ruling Queen, being the only child of Tar-Aldarion the Sixth King, the law was made that the oldest child of the King whether man or woman should receive the sceptre and the kingly authority; but Silmarien was older than her brother Meneldur who succeeded Tar-Elendil.]>. And these lords were loyal to the kings, … and sought rather to amend the hearts of the lords of the Sceptre with wiser counsels.
There was a lady Inzilbêth, … if the laws had allowed.
But when Inziladûn acceded to the sceptre, … and Avallónë was veiled in cloud.
AK-SL-02<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text c For Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd had become even more restless and eager for wealth and power than his father. He was a man of great beauty and stature, in likness of the first kings of men, and indeed in his youth he was not unlike the Edain of old in mind also, though he had courage and strength of will rather than of wisdom, as after appeared, when he was corrupted by the counsels of his father and the acclaim of the people. In his earlier days he had a close friendship with Amandil son of Númendil, Lord of Andúnië, AK-SL-03<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a [Footnote to the text: {3rd}[2nd] in line from Eärendur and {18th}[17th] from Valandil the First Lord of Andúnië.]> and he had loved the people of that House, with whom he himself had kinship (through Inzilbêth his father's mother). With them he was often a guest, and there also his cousin, daughter of Inziladûn, was often be found. For Elentir Amandil’s brother loved her, and she had turned her heart to him, and it was known that soon they would be betrothed. AK-SL-04<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text b Now {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel], whom her father called Míriel, only daughter of Tar-Palantir, was a woman of great beauty, smaller {[?}in {... }stature{]} than were most women of that land, with bright eyes{, and she had great skill in ..}. She was older than Ar-Pharazôn by one year,{(17)} but seemed younger, and his eyes and heart were turned to her; but the laws of Númenor lay between, beside the displeasure of her father whom Gimilkhâd opposed in all ways that he could. For in Númenor cousins in the first degree did not marry even in the royal house. And moreover Zimrahil was betrothed to Elentir Amandil's {[?}older{]} brother and heir of Numendil.{(18)}
From a distance,{(19)} for Gimilkhâd and his son were not welcome in the house of the king.{
In the remainder of the text there are a number of whole sentences, clearly essential to the briefly sketched narrative, in which I can decipher virtually nothing.
Now it came into his heart that he would ..........} Pharazôn was not disposed to admit hindrance to his desires, and he asked leave therefore of Amandil to be a guest in his house, learning {.....}that Zimrahil was at the time in Andúnië. Gimilkhad was little pleased with this, for the Lords of Andúnië were his chief opponents. But Pharazôn {[?}laughed{]} saying he would do as he would{, and .........}.
And Amandil and Pharazôn rode in Andúnië and Elentir and {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw them afar as they {[?}stood{] .....} for Elentir loved his brother. But when {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw Pharazôn in the splendour of his young manhood come riding {[? }in{] .......... Suddenly}suddenly {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel]'s heart turned towards him. And when Pharazôn was greeted upon the steps of the house their eyes met {.......... }and they were abashed.>AK-SL-05<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a but when first she saw Pharazôn her eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also.{
}But he went away{(15)} and she remained unwed.>
Now Gimilkhâd died two years before his two hundredth year (which was accounted an early death for one of Elros' line even in its waning), but this brought no peace to the King. For Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd had become a man yet more restless and eager for wealth and power than his father. He had fared often abroad, as a leader in the wars that the Númenóreans made then in the coastlands of Middle-earth, seeking to extend their dominion over Men; and thus he had won great renown as a captain both by land and by sea. Therefore when he came back to Númenor, hearing of his father's death, the hearts of the people were turned to him; for he brought with him great wealth, and was for the time free in his giving.
AK-SL-06 {And it came to pass that Tar-Palantir grew weary of grief and died. He had no son, but a daughter only, whom he named Míriel in the Elven-tongue; and to her now by right and the laws of the Númenóreans came the sceptre. But Pharazôn took her to wife against her will, doing evil in this and evil also in that the laws of Númenor did not permit the marriage, even in the royal house, of those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree. And when they were wedded, he seized the sceptre into his own hand, taking the title of Ar-Pharazôn (Tar-Calion in the Elven-tongue); and the name of his queen he changed to Ar-Zimraphel.}<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a And now it came to pass that {her}Zimraphel’s father Tar-Palantir grew weary of grief and died, and as he had no son the sceptre came to her, in the name of Tar-Míriel, by right and the laws of the Númenóreans. But Pharazôn {[?}arose{]} and came to her, and she was glad, and forsook the allegiance of her father for the time, being enamoured of Pharazôn. And in this they broke the laws of Númenor that forbade marriage even in the royal house between those more nearly akin than cousins in the second degree. But they were too powerful for any to gainsay them. And when they were wedded she yielded the sceptre to Pharazôn, and he sat upon the throne of Elros in the name of Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, but she retained also her title as hers by right, and was called Ar-{Zimrahil}[Zimraphel].{(16)}
The Elendili alone were not subservient to him, or dared to speak against his wishes, and it became well-known to all in that time that Amandil the Lord of Andúnië was head of their party though not openly declared.> AK-SL-07<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text d And {he}Ar-Pharazôn persecuted the Faithful, and deprived the Lords of Andúnië of their lordship, since they had aided Tar-Palantir and supported his daughter. Andúnië he took then and made it the chief harbour of the king's ships, and Amandil the Lord he commanded to dwell in Rómenna. Yet he did not otherwise molest him, nor dismiss him yet from his Council. For in the days of his youth (ere his father corrupted him) Amandil had been his dear friend.>

The mightiest and proudest was Ar-Pharazôn the Golden of all those that had wielded the Sceptre of the Sea-Kings since the foundation of Númenor; and AK-HA-07{three}<History of the Akalabeth four> and twenty Kings and Queens had ruled the Númenóreans before, and slept now in their deep tombs under the mount of Meneltarma, lying upon beds of gold.
And sitting upon his carven throne in the city of Armenelos in the glory of his power, AK-SL-08<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a and he found it too little to appease his {[?}lust{]}, and amid all his splendour > he brooded darkly, thinking of war. … if that might be.
Great was the anger of Ar-Pharazôn at these tidings, … and when all was made ready he himself set sail with his host into the East.
And men saw his sails coming up out of the sunset, dyed as with scarlet and gleaming with red AK-HA-08 { and} gold, and fear fell upon the dwellers by the coasts, and they fled far away. But the fleet came at last to that place that was called Umbar, where was AK-HA-09 the mighty haven of the Númenóreans that no hand had wrought. … swear to him fealty.
And Sauron came. … for all that he said seemed fair and wise.
But Ar-Pharazôn was not yet deceived, … but his heart within was filled the more with envy and hate.
Yet such was the cunning of his mind and mouth, … so that the increase of their power shall find no end.'
And Ar-Pharazôn said: 'Who is the Lord of the Darkness?'
Then behind locked doors Sauron spoke … and he shall make you stronger than they.'
Then Ar-Pharazôn the King turned back to the worship of the Dark, … and neither the King nor Sauron dared to lay hands on him as yet.
Therefore Amandil withdrew to Rómenna, … for it was a memorial of the Eldar and of the light of Valinor.
At the first the King would not assent to this, … arose and was troubled no more by his wounds.
None too soon was this done; … until slowly it passed into the west.
Thereafter the fire and smoke went up without ceasing; … and hate brings forth hate.
But for all this Death did not depart from the land, … and the men of power took cruel revenge.
Nonetheless for long it seemed to the Númenóreans that they prospered, … and the memory of the kindly kings of the AK-HA-10{ancient}<History of the Akalabeth elder> days faded from the world and was darkened by many a tale of dread.
Thus Ar-Pharazôn, … and be subject to no command or ban.
And he said: 'The Valar have possessed … and take what is their due.'
Then Ar-Pharazôn, being besotted, and walking under the shadow of death, … Therefore he called his son, Elendil, and he said to him:
'The days are dark, and there is no hope AK-HA-11{for}<History of the Akalabeth in> Men, for the Faithful are few. … and beseech his aid ere all is lost.'
'Would you then betray the King? … and that until this day it has been false.'
'If I thought that Manwë needed such a messenger, … lest all my people should become guilty.'
'But what think you, … when your deed becomes known?'
'It must not become known, … But for AK-HA-12{you}[thou] and {your}[thy] folk, my son, I counsel that you should prepare yourselves other ships, and put aboard all such things as your hearts cannot bear to part with; and when the ships are ready, {you}[thou] should lie in the haven of Rómenna, and give out among men that {you}[thou] purpose, when {you see your}[thou seeth thy] time, to follow me into the east. Amandil is no longer so dear to our kinsman upon the throne that he will grieve over much, if we seek to depart, for a season or for good. But let it not be seen that {you}[thou] intend to take many men, or he will be troubled, because of the war that he now plots, for which he will need all the force that he may gather. Seek out the Faithful that are known still to be true, and let them join {you}[thy] in secret, if they are willing to go with {you}[thy], and share in {your}[thy] design.'
'And what shall that design be?' said Elendil.
'To meddle not in the war, … But east or west the Valar alone can say.'
Then Amandil said farewell … for the end of the world that we have known is now at hand.'
It is said that Amandil set sail in a small ship … and for the treason of Númenor there was no easy absolving.
But Elendil did all that his father had bidden, … Then he journeyed in secret to the western shores and gazed out over the sea, for sorrow and yearning were upon him, and he greatly loved his father. But naught could he descry save the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn gathering in the havens of the west.>AK-SL-09<HoME 5; The Lsot Road BY-HL-17{Chapter III}<editiroal emendation
* * *
>{Elendil}[Isildur] was walking in his garden, but not to look upon its beauty in the evening light. He was troubled and his mind was turned inward. His house with its white tower and golden roof glowed behind him in the sunset, but his eyes were on the path before his feet. He was going down to the shore, to bathe in the blue pools of the cove beyond his garden's end, as was his custom at this hour. And he looked also to find his son {Herendil}[Elendur] there. The time had come when he must speak to him.
He came at length to the great hedge of lavaralda{(1)} that fenced the garden at its lower, western, end. It was a familiar sight, though the years could not dim its beauty. It was seven twelves of years{(2)} or more since he had planted it himself when planning his garden before his marriage; … but a new disquiet.
'Eressëa, Eressëa!' he said. 'I wish I were there; and had not been fated to dwell in Númenor{(3)} half-way between the worlds. And least of all in these days of perplexity!'
He passed under an arch of shining leaves, … and the beach seemed oddly empty.
{Elendil}[Isildur] stood and surveyed the cove … He could not interpret the feeling.
He sighed. … The time is getting short.'

'{Herendil}[Elendur]!' he called, and his voice echoed along the hollow shore above the soft sound of the light-falling waves. '{Herendil}[Elendur]!'
…
…
…
{Elendil}[Isildur] sighed. 'Then it must have become perilous to be the {son}[grandson] of him that is named elendil; for that leads to {Valandil, God-friend,}[Amandil, friend of Aman] who was thy {father}[grandfather]'s father AK-SL-10<editorial addition and at last to Valandil, friend of the Valar, who was the first Lord of Andúnië>.'{(6)}
There was a silence. …
…
…
…
'Yea, so I have heard others say, … Thou art my AK-SL-11{only}[eldest] son, and my dearest child, and I would have us at one in all our choices. …
…
'I bring no evil, … Thou art AK-SL-12{but four}[less then two] twelves,{(10)} and wert AK-SL-13{but a small child}[not yet born] when Sauron came. Thou dost not understand what days were like before then. …
…
…
…
Now her voice sang an even-song in the Eressëan tongue, but made by men, long ago. The nightingale ceased. {Elendil}[Isildur] stood still to listen; and the words came to him, far off and strange, as some melody in archaic speech sung sadly in a forgotten twilight in the beginning of man's journey in the world.

Illu Ilúvatar en káre eldain a fírimoin
ar antaróta mannar Valion: númessier.....

The Father made the World for elves and mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords, who are in the West.

So sang Fíriel on high, until her voice fell sadly to the question with which that song ends: man táre antáva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar, enyáre tar i tyel íre Anarinya qeluva? What will Ilúvatar, O Ilúvatar, give me in that day beyond the end, when my Sun faileth?'[Footnote to the text: AK-SL-14{The manuscript (followed by the typescript) is here confused, since in addition to the text as printed the whole song that Fíriel sang is given as well, with translation; thus the two opening and the two closing lines and their translations are repeated. It is clear however from pencilled markings on the manuscript that my father moved at once to a second version (omitting the greater part of the song) without striking out the first.
The text of the song was emended in three stages. Changes made probably very near the time of writing were Valion númenyaron (translated 'of the Lords of the West') > Valion: númessier in line 2, and hondo-ninya > indo-ninya in line 9; Vinya was written above Númenor as an alternative in line 8 (cf. note 3). Before the later emendations the text ran thus:
}Ilu Ilúvatar en káre eldain a fírimoin
ar antaróta mannar Valion: númessier.
Toi aina, mána, meldielto - enga morion:
talantie. [Alkar ]Mardello{ Melko} lende: márie.
{Eldain en kárier Isil, nan hildin Úr-anar.}[En kárielto eldain Isil, hildin Úr-anar.]
{Toi írimar. Ilqainen antar annar lestanen}[Toi írimar. Ilyain antalto annar lestanen]
Ilúvatáren. Ilu vanya, fanya, eari,
i-mar, ar ilqa ímen. Írima ye Númenor.
Nan úye sére indo-ninya símen, ullume;
ten sí ye tyelma, yéva tyel ar i-narqelion,
írẹ ilqa yéva nótina, hostainiéva, yallume:
ananta úva táre fárea, ufárea!
Man táre antáva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar
enyárẹ tar i tyel, íre Anarinya qeluva?
The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West. They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one. He is fallen. {Melko}[Alkar] has gone from Earth: it is good. For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun; which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor. But my heart resteth not here for ever; for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading, when all is counted, and all numbered at last, but yet it will not be enough, not enough. What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?{
Subsequently Mardello Melko in line 4 was changed to Melko Mardello, and lines 5-6 became
En kárielto eldain Isil, hildin Úr-anar.
Toi írimar. Ilyain antalto annar lestanen
Then, after the typescript was made, Melko was changed to Alkar in text and translation; see note 15.
The thought of lines 5 - 6 of the song reappears in Elendil's words to Herendil later (p. 64): 'But the Valar made the Moon for the Firstborn and the Sun for Men to confound the Darkness of the Enemy.' Cf. QS §75 (The Silmarillion p. 99): 'For the Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves; but the Moon cherishes their memory.'}] 'E man antavaro? What will he give indeed?' said {Elendil}[Isildur]; and stood in sombre thought.
'She should not sing that song out of a window, … and the king shall give us the Sun forever.'
'I know what they say, … followed him. BY-HL-18{Chapter IV}<editiroal emendation
* * *
> {Herendil}[Elendur] lay on the floor, …
…
…
…
'{Eärendel}[Eärendil] was son of Tuor, son of Huor, son of {Gumlin}[Galdor], … And he renounced there all whom he loved, his wife and his AK-SL-15{child}[children], and all his kindred, …
…
…
…
'But why should we not essay it? The Eressëans go thitherAK-SL-16{, and yet our mariners in the old days used to sojourn in Eressëa without hurt}.'
'The Eressëans are not as we. … as the pictures of friends beloved.
'There were no temples in this land. … but at these we laughed.{(21)}
'It seems that rumour came also to him of us. It is not many years – AK-SL-17{three twelves and eight(22)}[less then five twelves] - but it seems many, since he came hither. Thou wert AK-SL-18{a small child}[not yet born], and knew not {then }what was happening in the east of this land, far from our western house. {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion] the king was moved by rumours of Sauron, and AK-SL-19{sent forth}[went on] a mission to discover what truth was in the mariners' tales. Many counsellors dissuaded him. My AK-SL-20{father}[grandfather] told me, and he was one of them, that those who were wisest and had most knowledge of the West had messages from the Lords warning them to beware. For the Lords said that Sauron would work evil; but he could not come hither unless he were summoned.{(23)} {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion] was grown proud, and brooked no power in Middle-earth greater than his own. Therefore AK-SL-21{the ships were sent}[he took ship and went forth], and Sauron was summoned to do homage.
'AK-SL-22{Guards were set at the haven of Moriondë in the east of the land,(24) where the rocks are dark, watching at the king's command without ceasing for the ships' return. It was night, but there was a bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. The ships were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. Upon that ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race of Númenor in stature.
'He stood upon the rock(25) and said: "This is done as a sign of power. For I am Sauron the mighty, servant of the Strong" (wherein he spoke darkly).}[And Sauron came and said:] "I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand."
'And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; … and he was humble before {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion].
'And behold what hath happened since, … They fret as men in chains.
'Wherefore Sauron hath preached deliverance; … Tomorrow it will be over the West.
'We had no temples. AK-SL-23<moved from below No man prayeth AK-SL-24{there. It waiteth}[here]. For long Sauron did not name his master by the name that from old is accursed here. He spoke at first of the Strong One, of the Eldest Power, of the Master. But now he speaketh openly of Alkar, of Morgoth. He hath prophesied his return. >But now the AK-SL-25{Mountain}[hill in the Kings garden in Armenelos] is despoiled. Its trees are felled, and it stands naked; and upon its summit there is a Temple. It is of marble, and of AK-SL-26{gold}[silver], and of glass and steel, and is wonderful, but terrible. AK-SL-27{No man prayeth there. }It waiteth. {For long Sauron did not name his master by the name that from old is accursed here. He spoke at first of the Strong One, of the Eldest Power, of the Master. But now he speaketh openly of Alkar,(26) of Morgoth. He hath prophesied his return.} The Temple is to be {his}Alkar’s house. Númenor is to be the seat of the world's dominion. Meanwhile Sauron dwelleth there. He surveys our land from the AK-SL-28{Mountain}[Temple], and is risen above the king, even proud {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion], of the line chosen by the Lords, the seed of {Eärendel}[Eärendil].
'Yet Morgoth cometh not. …
…
…
…
'Even what I say. Why dost thou look on me so strangely? Didst thou think the AK-SL-29{son}[grandson] of {Valandil}[Amandil], chief of the wise men of Númenor, … nor to his master.'
'But thou speakest as if thou wert a leader in this matter … Even to dispraise Sauron is held rebellious.'
'I am a leader, my son. … Wilt thou stay?'
'Atarinya tye-meláne… What dost thou say?'
'I stay, father.'>BY-HL-19<editiroal addition
* * *
> Now aforetime in the isle of Númenor the weather … thunder echoed between sea and cloud.
Then men grew afraid. … but they were devised by Sauron.
Now the lightnings increased … But all the more did Ar-Pharazôn press on with his armament.
In that time the fleets of the Númenóreans darkened the sea upon the west of the land, … and men brought him victims to be burned.
Then the Eagles of the Lords of the West came up out of the dayfall, … and it seemed to them that they were red with wrath.
Then Ar-Pharazôn hardened his heart, … and in that hour the trumpets of Númenor outrang the thunder.
Thus the fleets of the Númenóreans moved against the menace of the West; … to wrest from them everlasting life within the Circles of the World.

AK-HA-13{But}<The History of the Akallabêth But who among Men{, Ælfwine,} can tell the tale of their fate? For neither ship nor man of all that host returned ever to the lands of the living; and the world was changed in that time, and in Middle-earth the memory of all that went before is dim and unsure. But among the Eldar word has been preserved of the deeds and things that were; and the wisest in lore among them tell this tale{, Ælfwine, that I tell now to thee}. And they say that> the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, … His heart misgave him when he looked upon the soundless shores and saw AK-HA-14{Taniquetil}<The History of the Akallabêth the Mountains of Aman> shining, whiter than snow, … whence all the Eldar had fled.
Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government of AK-HA-15{Arda}<The History of the Akallabêth the Earth>. But Ilúvatar showed forth his power, … and the Day of Doom.
But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed AK-HA-16<The History of the Akallabêth from the circles of the world> beyond the reach of Men for ever. And Andor, the Land of Gift, Númenor of the Kings, Elenna of the Star of Eärendil, was utterly destroyed. For it was nigh to the east of the great rift, and its foundations were overturned, and it fell and went down into darkness, and is no more. And there is not now AK-HA-17{upon Earth}<The History of the Akallabêth within the circles of the world > any place abiding where the memory of a time without evil is preserved. For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.
In an hour unlocked for by Men this doom befell, … and her cry was lost in the roaring of the wind.
But whether or no it were that Amandil came indeed to Valinor … hunting the unhappy men like straws upon the water.
Nine ships there were: four for Elendil, and for Isildur three, and for Anárion two; … and hills crumbled and rivers were turned into strange courses.

Elendil and his sons after founded kingdoms in Middle-earth; … and of their strife with Sauron that not yet was ended.
For Sauron himself was filled with great fear at the wrath of the Valar, … and the Eye of Sauron the Terrible few could endure.
But these things come not into the tale of the Drowning of Númenor, … spoke of Mar-nu-Falmar that was whelmed in the waves, Akallabêth the Downfallen, Atalantë AK-HA-18<The History of the Akallabêth [Footnote to the text: The Adunaic or Númenorean name of the same meaning was Akallabêth, √KALAB. By a curious coincidence {(not consciously prepared) before this tale was written a}[u]the[/b] base √TALAT 'collapse, fall in ruin' {had already been invented, and from that base}produced atalante 'it has fallen down'{ was a correct formation} according to grammatical rules{ devised before Númenor had been thought of}. The resemblance to Atlantis is thus by chance (as we say).]> in the Eldarin tongue.
* * *
Among the Exiles many believed that the summit of the Meneltarma, … in true being and in the whole shape of the world as at first it was devised.'
For the Dúnedain held that even mortal Men, … and returned weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said:
'All roads are now bent.'
Thus in after days, … and traversed Ilmen which flesh unaided cannot endure, until it came to Tol Eressëa, AK-HA-19{the Lonely Isle}<The History of the Akallabêth where are the Eldar immortal>, and maybe even beyond, to Valinor, where the Valar still dwell and watch the unfolding of the story of the world. And tales and rumours arose along the shores of the sea concerning mariners and men forlorn upon the water who, by some fate or grace or favour of the Valar, had entered in upon the Straight Way and seen the face of the world sink below them, and so had come to the lamplit quays of Avallónë AK-HA-20<The History of the Akallabêth and Eressëa>, or verily to the last beaches on the margin of Aman, and there had looked upon the White Mountain, dreadful and beautiful, before they died.

Some comments on my editing:

BY-HL-16: On the one hand we have reduced the contenet of this chapter by removing the earlier history of Númenor. On the other hand we extend it by The Lost Road chapters.

AK-SL-01: We start with the text were we left the Akallabêth. This is fitting since it tells of the again upcoming might of Sauron.

AK-SL-02: Even if we decised not to use the story of Elentir’s proposed marriage to Miriel, we should at least us the first part of this, as it gives a description of Pharazôns character.
The problem of the story of Elentir is that it is not fully told, but that shouldn’t hinder us to much. Missing is the death of Elentir, but that he died is clear since Amandil becomes the next Lord of Andunië following Valandil even so we are told that Elentir was the older of the brethren.
For me JRR Tolkiens decision to leave the story out, is rather a concern of space then a rejection of its content, but that is of course speculation and open for discussion.

AK-SL-03: I took these footnote from text a, since it adds information otherwise lost.

AK-SL-04: Text b is difficult, but it is need to construct the tale. I removed in this passage the editorial footnote and remarks in the text. Again Christopher Tolkiens guesses about the unreadable words is the best we have.

AK-SL-05: This passage from text a seems to say more explicit what is is only hinted at in text b. After this we come back to the basic text from the Akallabêth.

AK-SL-06: This part of the Akallabêth is replaced by the parts telling farther the story of Pharazons and Miriel from text a. The forced marriage of Miriel is the only argument against the story of Miriel/Elentir/Pharazôns. But for me that never worked well: How could even the leader of the King’s Men force the Queen into marriage?
At least the last part about the Elendili not being subservient and Amandil being know even so not declared the leader of that party should be considered, even so the story of Miriel/Elentir/Pharazôns is not taken up.

AK-SL-07: I don’t see any good reason not to take this passage from text D.

AK-SL-08: This is now really independent of the story of Miriel/Elentir/Pharazôns but adds nicely to the character description of Pharazôns.

AK-HA-12: I tried to re-establish the difference in th addressing between Amandil and Elendil, but I am fare from sure that I was succesfull.

AK-SL-09: The visit of Elendil to Andunië seems to set the stage for the talk of father and son that is told in The Lost Road. As already discussed in the thread * An unofficial New Silmarillion Outline * I think the son must be Elendur since the father fears that his son is called to the weapon taking, and only Elendur has a fiting age for this at any time in which Sauron is in Númenor as he clearly must be during the talk. So with the son fix as Elendur, we could change the older man to be the grandfather and stay with Elendil, but the father to son relation is important in this talk and so I think we have to change the father to Isildur.
I removed all editorial notes from Christopher Tolkien.

BY-HL-17, BY-HL-18: ‘Chapter III’ etc. as it was in The Lost Road is unuseable, so I replaced it with natural ‘* * *’.

AK-SL-10: I think we should keep the reference to Valandil, even so he is in or version an anjester of long, long ago.

AK-SL-11: Elendur is not the only son of Isildur, so we must change this.

AK-SL-12, AK-SL-13 & AK-SL-17, AK-SL-18: The time that has elapsed between the coming of Sauron and the talk has to be changed as well as the age in which the son was at Sauron coming (unborn in our case). As I said in the outline thread as Elendur is barely old enough we have to place the talk as late as possible. I took 3317 as a working assumption.

Orontor and his mission is so unspecific, that we do not have to change anything here. In our version he could be a companion of Amandil.

AK-SL-14: I put the complete text of the song into the footnote.

AK-SL-15: Eärendil has in our Version two sons.

AK-SL-16: The sojourn of the Númenorean mariners in Eressea has to go.

AK-SL-19: Tar-Calion in our version goes out to Middel-earth him self.

AK-SL-20, AK-SL-21: Amandil was the counsellor and since Isildur speaks it must be grandfather here.

AK-SL-22: Saurons arrival is in our version as a hostage, so this has to go.

AK-SL-23 & AK-SL-24: I used this passage to make the point that the Númenoreans had no religion.

AK-SL-25, AK-SL-28: In our Version the temple is not at the Meneltaram, but in the gardens of the King in Armenelos.

AK-SL-26: Their might have been gold used in the temple but the dome was in the later story made of silver.

AK-SL-27: Most of this was moved.

AK-SL-29: Again we have to add one generation and change Valandil to Amandil.

BY-HL-19: At this return to the text of the Akallabêth I felt a ‘headline’ necessary.

AK-HA-13: I think we can keep more of this passage.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

This is a very long and difficult chapter, especially because of the Lost Road addition, which has quite a few issues in terms of modern canon. I anticipate that we may run into some disagreements along the way, but I will here lay out my comments. It will be rather long, so I beg pardon.

BY-HL-16: Because we know (from Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) that the 'Akallabeth' is an in-universe document like the Valaquenta and Ainulindale, I hesitate to use this title for this chapter. I think we have taken too much from the actual document, and so I think it would be better to use the original title The Fall of Númenor.

AK-HA-01: What is this marker referencing?

AK-HA-03: Why was this changed in the published version? I can't seem to find the info, and I'm curious. Just want to make sure there arent any contradictions.

AK-SL-02: This is fine, but we should leave out the initial 'For' since it isn't in reference to anything in this new setting.The sentence should simply start with "Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd ..."

AK-SL-04: This is fine, but there are two missed {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] changes. Also part of the treatment of the outline I think should be changed slightly thus:

And Amandil and Pharazôn rode in Andúnië and Elentir and {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw them afar as they {[?}stood{] .....}/watching for them,/ for Elentir loved his brother.

The italicized part is my own addition. I added this because otherwise there is no explanation for the phrase 'for Elentir loved his brother.' Because of the 'for' there, it is clearly meant to be explaining a previous statement, but the statement was illegible. Thus, we must approximate one. Finally, the final use of 'Zimrahil's' should just be 'her' since we used her name just last sentence, and it is awkward to repeat it so soon. Tolkien wrote a bunch in between, but it was illegible, so we should change it to be smoother.

AK-SL-05: The initial 'but' should be changed to an 'And' because the 'but' no longer applies.

AK-SL-06: There is one piece of info which is lost in yours from the base Akallabeth text, which I would like to add in:

And when they were wedded she yielded the scepter to Pharazôn, and he sat upon the throne of Elros in the name of Ar-Pharazôn the Golden, AK-SL-06.5 <Akallabêth (Tar-Calion in the Elven tongue)> but she retained also her title as hers by right, and was called Ar-{Zimrahil}[Zimraphel].{(16)}

AK-SL-07: Why would we not just stick with text a? It is longer and has a few more details. Seems simpler to me.

AK-HA-09: What is this reference referring to?

AK-SL-08: This is fine, but I want to add in the story of the coming of Sauron from the Lost Road here. In the Lost Road, Sauron is also brought as a captive, so it is the same as in our version, but here there is an added story that he rescued the fleet from a storm, as a sign of his power and the power of Melkor. I think this story actually helps us understand how he was able to convince the King to worship Melkor so easily. Tolkien never contradicted the story in any later writing, and therefore I see no reason to leave it out.

But Ar-Pharazôn was not yet deceived, and it came into his mind that, for the better keeping of Sauron and of his oaths of fealty, he should be brought to Númenor, there to dwell as a hostage for himself and all his servants in Middle-earth. To this Sauron assented as one constrained, yet in his secret thought he received it gladly, for it chimed indeed with his desire. And Sauron passed over the sea. AK-SL-08.5 <Lost Road Guards were set at the haven of {Morionde}[Rómenna] in the east of the land, where the rocks are dark, watching {at the king's command} without ceasing for the ships' return. It was night, but there was a bright Moon. They descried ships far off, and they seemed to be sailing west at a speed greater than the storm, though there was little wind. Suddenly the sea became unquiet; it rose until it became like a mountain, and it rolled upon the land. {The}[Some] ships were lifted up, and cast far inland, and lay in the fields. <Copied from earlier in the narrative But the [rest of the] fleet came at last [to land].> Upon that ship which was cast highest and stood dry upon a hill there was a man, or one in man's shape, but greater than any even of the race of Númenor in stature.
He stood upon the rock and said: ‘This is done as a sign of power. For I am AK-SL-08.7 {Sauron}[Tar-Mairon] the mighty, servant of the Strong’ (wherein he spoke darkly). ‘I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand.’
And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil. {But they led him to the king, and he was humble before {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôn].}> Now Sauron {and} looked upon the land of Númenor, and on the city of Armenelos in the days of its glory, and he was astounded; but his heart within was filled the more with envy and hate.

I removed the bit about the King's command since he is in the fleet. I only had some of the ships cast up since we are told there are many many ships and I think if all were cast up it would have been remarked on. I think this is also important since it allows us to show the name that Sauron used in Numenor: Tar-Mairon. We mentioned in our Valaquenta that he used this name, and here is the only place we can show it.

AK-HA-12: I fixed up the use of you/thou. Most of the later uses of 'you' are in the plural sense referring to Elendil and his sons, so I left them as 'you'. I moved the editing marker earlier to accommodate some other changes:

... Manwë himself, if may be, and beseech his aid ere all is lost.'
AK-HA-12 '{Would you}[Wouldst thou] then betray the King?' said Elendil. 'For {you know}[thou knowest] well the charge that they make against us, that we are traitors and spies, and that until this day it has been false.'
'If I thought that Manwë needed such a messenger,' said Amandil, I would betray the King. For there is but one loyalty from which no man can be absolved in heart for any cause. But it is for mercy upon Men and their deliverance from Sauron the Deceiver that I would plead, since some at least have remained faithful. And as for the Ban, I will suffer in myself the penalty, lest all my people should become guilty.'
'But what think {you}[thou], my father, is like to befall those of {your}[thy] house whom {you leave}[thou leavest] behind, when {your}[thy] deed becomes known?'
'It must not become known,' said Amandil. 'I will prepare my going in secret, and I will set sail into the east, whither daily the ships depart from our havens; and thereafter, as wind and chance may allow, I will go about, through south or north, back into the west, and seek what I may find. But for {you}[thou] and {your}[thy] folk, my son, I counsel that you should prepare yourselves ....

AK-SL-09: Here is my biggest point to make about the Lost Road addition. They would not be speaking Quenya, since we have made a big deal of the fact that it was outlawed. They certainly would not speak it out in the open. We know from the discussion later on in the story that the situation in this older version is different, and Sauron was only just then trying to bring back the old speech of Men. But of course in the newer version, the speech of Men never died out, and the Elvish speeches are outlawed. Therefore, there are many things that need to be changed throughout the addition. Firstly, what I will call AK-SL-09.5 is thus:

At length there was an answering call: a young voice very clear came from some distance away - like a bell out of a deep cave.
AK-SL-09.5 {'Man-ie, atto, man-ie?'}[What is it father, what is it?]
For a brief moment it seemed to {Elendil}[Isildur] that the words were strange. '{Man-ie, atto?} What is it, father?' Then the feeling passed.

Later on we have this instance of the children giving Elendur a nickname in elvish, which would not happen:

... We hold that we are of the blood of kings, but I tell thee thy friends' sons make a jest of me and call me AK-SL-09.7 {Terendul (4) -} slender and dark; ...

They would give him a name in Adûnaic, but I think to create such a name in Adûnaic would be too much liberty on our part, so I simply think we should leave it out.

AK-SL-10: This is fine, but following it are more changes needed due to the illegality of Elvish. Firstly this is a general change in the chapter. The original text has 'Tarkalion' throughout, and Fin changed it to 'Tar-Calion.' However, he would certainly never be known by his Elvish name, and thus should always be referred to as 'Ar-Pharazôn'. I call this first occurrence AK-SL-10.1. Later on, we have Elendur give him a title in Quenya:

... We would make our king Lord of the West: AK-SL-10.2 {Nuaran Númenóren}[Adûnakhôr] {(9)}.

As opposed to the 'Terendul' change, where I removed it due to there being no Adunaic equivalent, in this case we do have one. 'Lord of the West' is the tranlation of Ar-Adûnakhôr's title earlier on, so I think it is safe to use it now.

AK-SL-12: This is a small grammatical change. The change should be "{but four}[less than two twelves]". 'Than' is for comparison, 'then' is for progression.

AK-SL-13: This is fine, but some more Elvish changes:

... I fear the dungeons. And I love thee, I love thee. AK-SL-13.1 {Atarinya tye-meláne.}'
AK-SL-13.2 {Atarinya tye-meláne, my}My father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. 'AK-SL-13.3 {A yonya inye tye-méla: and}And I too, my son, I love thee,' he said, ...

AK-SL-14: This is where I will make an exception. She is singing an already forbidden song, and I think to divorce it of its Elvish lyrics is to take away from the impact of her singing it out loud. Its an act of defiance, and the defiance of the act is only increased by the fact that Elvish is illegal. However, we are faced with another different problem. This elvish is not at all 'correct' in terms of LotR-style Quenya. We must then decide: Are we saying that in our version Quenya changed drastically from the time of Numenor to the end of the Third Age (which would mean leaving the poem as-is)? Or are we saying that it did not change (meaning we must update the elvish)? I am inclined to the latter, simply because we are told that Quenya changed very little over the years since it was a tongue of lore and books, and not a language spoken, similar to Latin. Therefore I think we should update the Quenya to fit a LotR-era correctness. This may seem like a daunting task, but have no fear! Noted Tolkien linguist and one of the foremost scholars of Neo-quenya Helge K. Fauskanger made an updated version of the poem. If Fin agrees that we should update the poem, then I will post the proposed draft edits (I will wait till he agrees in order to save some space). If this is agreed, then the references in the paragraphs to the lines from the song will need to be changed as well. Here is the link to his translation if you wish to peruse it yourself (it is at the very bottom of the page).

AK-SL-14.1: I made a separate marker for this, but in the english translation of the song is the first occurrence of the name 'Alkar' for Melkor. I think we must change all these to Melkor, since the name is a fleeting idea of Tolkien's which he later rejected. CT says as much himself. The name occurs nowhere outside this text and makes no sense with everything else in the established canon.

AK-SL-14.2: A little further on, there is a footnote after hón-maren. However, this footnote is not needed, since the definition of the word is given right in the body of the text. The footnote is merely CT referencing the relevant section of the etymologies. Therefore I say we remove the footnote entirely.

AK-14.3: At the end of the first paragraph of Isildur's historical tale, there is an innacuracy:

... and they gave battle to him in the North, and they AK-SL-14.3 {bound}[imprisoned] him, and the World had peace and grew exceeding fair.

In our version he was not bound, so this must change.

AK-SL-15.1: This has no marker so I am giving it one. In the paragraph after AK-SL-15 there is an occurrence of 'Avallon' to refer to Eressea. This was an older idea of Tolkien's that he rejected, relegating Avallon to Avalone, a specific haven in Eressea. Therefore it should be changed thus:

'And they recalled the Exiles of the Firstborn and pardoned them; and such as returned dwell since in bliss in Eressëa, the Lonely Isle, which is AK-SL-15.1 {Avallon, for it is} within sight of Valinor and the light of the Blessed Realm.

There is one more occurrence later on:

... and ruin (if he might) AK-SL-15.2 {Avallon}[Eressëa] and Valinor.

AK-SL-22: I think we should remove more, since we should include the full version earlier. Thus these must also be removed:

{[And Sauron came and said:] "I have come. Be glad, men of Númenor, for I will take thy king to be my king, and the world shall be given into his hand."
'And it seemed to men that Sauron was great; though they feared the light of his eyes. To many he appeared fair, to others terrible; but to some evil. But they led him to the king, and he was humble before {Tarkalion}[Tar-Calion].}

AK-SL-23 through 28: These edits I disagree with for several reasons. 1) There was most certainly prayer in Numenor. Earlier we described the fact that three times a year the king presides over a public prayer to Eru, and just a few pages ago Firiel sang a religious hymn to Eru. Therefore we cannot say that there is no prayer or religion in Numenor, when there certainly is. 2) The other edits often contain things that dont apply (like saying a hull in the city has been stripped of trees when there would be no trees in the city for them to strip). I propose changing it thus:

'We had no temples. But now AK-SL-23 {the Mountain}[Armenelos] is despoiled AK-SL-24 {. It trees are felled, and it stands naked; and upon its summit}, and in the city there is a Temple. It is of marble, and of AK-SL-26 {gold}[silver], and of glass and steel, and is wonderful, but terrible. No man prayeth there. It waiteth. For long Sauron did not name his master by the name that from old is accursed here. He spoke at first of the Strong One, of the Eldest Power, of the Master. But now he speaketh openly of {Alkar}[Melkor], of Morgoth. He hath prophesied his return. The Temple is to be his house. Númenor is to be the seat of the world's dominion. Meanwhile Sauron dwelleth there. He surveys our land from the AK-SL-28{Mountain}[Temple], and is risen above the king, even proud {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôn], of the line chosen by the Lords, the seed of {Earendel}[Eärendil].

This is much smoother, and contains no contradictions (as far as I can tell).

AK-SL-28.1: This is the discussion of the languages used by Sauron. It needs severe updating. I ended up having to remove most of it, since it no longer applied:

'Yea: that one learneth day by day,' said {Herendil}[Elendur]. 'But some of the new songs are strong and heartening. AK-SL-28.1 {Yet now I hear that some counsel us to abandon the old tongue. They say we should leave Eressëan, and revive the ancestral speech of Men. Sauron teacheth it. In this at least I think he doth not well.}'
'Sauron deceiveth us {doubly}. {For men learned speech of the Firstborn, and therefore if we should verily go back to the beginnings we should find not the broken dialects of the wild men, nor the simple speech of our fathers, but a tongue of the Firstborn. But the Eressëan is of all the tongues of the Firstborn the fairest, and they use it in converse with the Lords, and it linketh their varied kindreds one to another, and them to us. If we forsake it, we should be sundered from them, and be impoverished. Doubtless that is what he intendeth. But there}There is no end to his malice. Listen now, {Herendil}[Elendur], and mark well. The time is nigh when all this evil shall bear bitter fruit, if it be not cut down. Shall we wait until the fruit be ripe, or hew the tree and cast it into the fire?'

Some cannot now counsel them to abandon the old tongue, since it is already illegal. The ancestral speech of Men (Adunaic) cannot be revived, since it is already the common tongue of Numenor. Therefore, the entire discussion on these points is moot and no longer applies.

AK-SL-30: This is a shaky addition I found, and it may very well be impossible. I figured I would bring it up and discuss if it should be included:

... weary at last to the place of their beginning; and they said:
'All roads are now bent.'
AK-SL-30 <Fall of Númenor Yet it is said that even of those Númenóreans of old who had the straight vision there were some who did not comprehend this, and they were busy to contrive ships that should rise above the waters of the world and hold to the imagined seas. But they achieved only ships that would sail in the air of breath. And these ships, flying, came also to the lands of the new world, and to the East of the old world; and they reported that the world was round. Therefore many abandoned the {gods}[Valar] and put them out of their legends. But men of Middle-Earth looked up with fear and wonder seeing the Númenóreans that descended out of the sky; and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so.>
Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, ....

Phew! That was a long post. Hopefully the discussion will be relatively painless, but perhaps not. There were many points raised. Once again, however, an excellent chapter by Fin! We only have one more after this until we have completed the first review of the entire Second Age!

[gondowe]

Only a fast thing. I know Alkar only appears in this text (or at least in this period of time, I think, I think remembering), but in my opinion could be used as an alternative name of Melkor in Númenor. Well...
And in my opinion the matter of the "flying ships" doesn't work, it should have been developed by the professor better.
I agree with Arcuscalion on the inclusion of the arrival of Sauron in that way.
Greetings

[Findegil]

BY-HL-16: I agree to ArcusCalions argument. So we will change the title.

AK-HA-01: Okay, I forgot to mention the things that I did not develop back to the original text. But in this case their was only a remark about an earlier version.

AK-HA-03: As far as I remember, one king was by accident left out of the Appendix A of LotR and Christopher felt bound to this.

AK-SL-02: Agreed.

AK-SL-04: Agreed.

AK-SL-05: Agreed.

AK-SL-06: Agreed. So I like to edit it by splitting the insert and not inserting part of the deleted text.

AK-SL-07: I wanted the reasoning be named. So what about this:

The Elendili alone were not subservient to him, or dared to speak against his wishes, and it became well-known to all in that time that Amandil the Lord of Andúnië was head of their party though not openly declared. Therefore Ar-Pharazon persecuted the Faithful, stripping them of any wealth that they had, and he deprived the heirs of Valandil of their lordshipAK-SL-07b<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text d since they had aided Tar-Palantir and supported his daughter.>. Andunie he took then and made it a chief haven for the king's ship-building, and Amandil who was now the Lord he commanded to move and dwell also in Romenna. Yet he did not otherwise molest him {[?} at this time{]}, nor dismiss him from the Council of the Sceptre, because he remembered still in his heart their friendship of old; and Amandil was well beloved also by many who were not of the Elendili.>

AK-HA-09: I left here the text as in Sil77. Christopher Tolkien writes to this passage:

In the second sentence I altered the original text 'Umbar, where there was a mighty haven that no hand had wrought' to 'Umbar, where was the mighty haven of the Numenoreans that no hand had wrought', in view of Appendix B, Second Age 2280: 'Umbar is made into a great fortress of Numenor' (nearly a thousand years before the coming of Ar-Pharazon). For the same reason I changed the original text in the following sentence, from 'Empty and silent under the sickle moon was the land when the King of the Sea set foot upon the shore' to 'Empty and silent were all the lands about when the King of the Sea marched upon Middle-earth'. (It is probable that when my father wrote this he did not yet suppose that Umbar was a Numenorean fortress and harbour at the time of Ar-Pharazon's landing.)

AK-SL-08: Okay, if both of you think that scene is valid, we will keep it, so I have some doubts.
But to the use of ‘Tar-marion’ at this place I don’t agree. We might add it earlier when we speak about the things that the Númenoreans hear about Sauron. But in Númenor Sauron was never king, so the prefix ‘Tar-‘ is not appropriate. I think we should use ‘Marion’.

AK-HA-12: I don’t think this is right. Tolkien wanted to make a difference between father addressing the son and son addressing the father.

AK-SL-09: Is it not a bit inconsistent to include ‘Tar-marion’ but remove the Quenya from the speech of Isildur and Elendur? But however we are after the restoration of Tar-Palantir, so it might be that it was not before Sauron convinced Pharazôns to attack Valinor, that Quenya was again forbidden.

AK-SL-12: Agreed.

AK-SL-14: I agree that we should update the Quenya.

AK-SL-14.1: I have to think a bit more about this. It is not impossible to use the name in this text only, but you might be right.

AK-SL-14.2: Okay.

AK-SL-14.3: Agreed.

AK-SL-15.1: Agreed.

AK-SL-23 through AK-SL-28: Agreed.

AK-SL-28.1: See above. I think the discussion can more or less stand as it is. The reference might than not be to Andunaic but a some other language that Sauron promotes, that is even farther removed from the elvish influence.

AK-SL-30: Even so it is risky, I like that addition.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-07: Agreed, I like this.

AK-HA-09: Ahh, ok.

AK-SL-08: To the Tar-Mairon question, I see your point. I agree to use Mairon.

AK-HA-12: Hmm this might be difficult then. I will give this more thought.

AK-SL-09: I see that, but Sauron does not yet know the political status of Numenor, and we are told by Tolkien that Sauron referred to himself as Mairon. We therefore cannot use Sauron here, but we may debate if we wish to use the Adunaic name for him: Zigûr (given in the Drowning of Anadune). As to the Elvish, I had forgotten about Tar-Palantir, but I think with Pharazon being a complete continuation of the King's Men and the rule of his father and other anti-elvish peoples, we must assume that he reinstated their policies. It says that Tar-Palantir was the last to support the Faithful, and so I can hardly say that Pharazon would continue to allow the speaking of Quenya.

AK-SL-14: I will then post my proposal for the edit:

Now her voice sang an even-song in the Eressëan tongue, but made by men, long ago. The nightingale ceased. {Elendil}[Isildur] stood still to listen; and the words came to him, far off and strange, as some melody in archaic speech sung sadly in a forgotten twilight in the beginning of man's journey in the world.

AK-SL-13.4 Illu Ilúvatar en {kare}[carnë] Eldain {a firimoin}[ar Fírimain]
ar {antarota}[antanéses] mánnar {Valion}[Valaron]: {numessier}[ëaltë Númessë].....

The Father made the World for elves and mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords, who are in the West.

So sang Fíriel on high, until her voice fell sadly to the question with which that song ends: Man tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar, enyárë {tar i tyel}[i metta pella,] írë Anarinya queluva? What will Ilúvatar, O Ilúvatar, give me in that day beyond the end, when my Sun faileth?’ AK-SL-14 <[Footnote: From Helge’s updated version
Ilu Ilúvatar carnë Eldain ar Fírimain
ar antanéses mánnar Valaron: ëaltë Númessë.
Naltë ainë, mánë ar meldë - hequa morion:
alanties. Melkor Mardello lendë: nás mára.
Carneltë Eldain Isil, Hildoin Úr-anar,
yar nar írimë. Ilyain antaneltë lestanen i annar
Ilúvataro. Ilu ná vanya, fanya, ëari,
i cemen, ar ilya ya ëa taissë. Írima ná Númenor.
Nan lá ëa sérë indonyan sinomë tennoio,
an sinomë ëa tyelma, ar euva metta ar i narquelië,
írë ilya nauva nótina, ar ilya hostaina, i mettassë:
ananta úva tárë fárëa, úfárëa!
Mana tárë antuva nin Ilúvatar, Ilúvatar
enyárë i metta pella, írë Anarinya queluva?
The Father made the World for Elves and Mortals, and he gave it into the hands of the Lords. They are in the West. They are holy, blessed, and beloved: save the dark one. He is fallen. AK-SL-14.1 {Melko}[Melkor] has gone from Earth: it is good. For Elves they made the Moon, but for Men the red Sun; which are beautiful. To all they gave in measure the gifts of Ilúvatar. The World is fair, the sky, the seas, the earth, and all that is in them. Lovely is Númenor. But my heart resteth not here forever; for here is ending, and there will be an end and the Fading, when all is counted, and all numbered at last, but yet it will not be enough, not enough. What will the Father, O Father, give me in that day beyond the end when my Sun faileth?]>
'{E man}[Mana tárë] antuvas? What will he give indeed?' said {Elendil}[Isildur]; and stood in sombre thought.

AK-SL-14.1: In the text it is said to be his original name, but we know that is Melkor. Melkor means 'He who arises in might' and Alkar means 'Radiance'. Tolkien uses Melkor in the story, so we are left with a confusing mess of a history. If Alkar is used, it would only be a name for Melkor given in Numenor, since it occurs nowhere else. However, to give a name to the mortal enemy of the universe, and to name him 'Radiance' seems to me to be impossible. Its use in the story clearly suggests it is meant to be his 'true' name, but we know that can't be true. Therefore, I think we must remove it.

AK-SL-28.1: This, for me, is impossible. The 'ancestral speech of Men' clearly means Adunaic, and to have it refer to some (hitherto unmentioned) speech seems to me to be a great liberty taken, and not to be what Tolkien intended. In this older story the situation is clearly different. In this version, there had been far fewer kings of Numenor, and Tarkalion was the first evil king. Therefore all the anti-elvish sentiment was still new and the languages of Men were unused and forgotten. However, in the newer version this is simply not true, and the Adunaic is spoken by the vast majority of Numenoreans as a daily speech. In fact, the use of Adunaic instead of elvish is seen as a sign of the King's Men, (since they took their regnal names in Adunaic) and so to revive some other unknown language would go counter to their goals and culture all along. Therefore I feel very strongly that we cannot use this discussion, due to its outdated and in-applicable nature.

AK-SL-30: Gondowe expressed his concerns for this addition, but to me saying 'it should have been more developed' is not a reason for excluding something. We need a contradiction or an impossibility in order to get rid of something, and as this is new information not found elsewhere, I think it is worth including.

[gondowe]

What I wanted to mean is that it comes from a text older than the Akallabeth, not retaken later. And such remarkable "technology" must appear or have notice of that even in the Third Age, and that not happens, it is not "developed" so it seems very rare to have this paragraph here and then, what...? (IMHO).
As for Alkar I still think that is valid because we are agreed that this legends are mannish and it cuold be a name taken by the Numenoreans (or some of them) as an alternative name for the Ainu in his orinal form, but nevertheless it is not so important for the story itself.
Greetings

[Findegil]

AK-SL-09: Hmm, yes Pharazôns reverted the restoration of Palantir as soon as he had married Míriel. But that in the house of the lords of Andunië the knowledge of Quenya was maintained can not be doubted. And we have here Isildur one of the Leaders of the Faithful, raised during the restoration period and his son being one a secret visit in their own old home in an area of the land that must have been rather empty after the Faithfull had to move to Rómenna. Why shouldn’t they speak Quenya on such an occasion?

AK-SL-16.5: About Saurons name: I agree to use Mairon in AK-SL-09, but probably we should mention Zigûr as well. It is translated ‘wizard’. And therefore probably not suitable for Sauron to use it for himself. But we could add it in here;

'There were no temples in this land. But on the Mountain we spoke to the One, who hath no image. It was a holy place, untouched by mortal art. Then Sauron came. We had long heard rumour of him from seamen returned from the East. The tales differed: some said he was a king greater than the king of Númenor; some said that he was one of the Powers, or their offspring set to govern Middle-earth. A few reported that he was an evil spirit, perchance Morgoth returned; but at these we laughed.{(21)} AK-SL16.5<The Drowning of Anadune And this evil thing was called by many names, but {the Eruhil named him Sauron, and }men of Middle-earth (when they dared to speak his name at all) named him mostly Zigur the Great.>
'It seems that rumour came also to him of us. …

AK-SL-09.7: About the names Almariel and Terendul: Elendur says that he is called that by ‘the sons of the friends of his father’. As things stand in Númenor at this time I would be sure that the friends of Isildur would nearly all be of the Faithfull themselves, so that neither an original name of Almariel nor a nickname Terendul seem fully impossible. Especially a nickname given in such a circle of young adults with a background of ‘rebellious’ parents, that will anyhow in any time and any society not much care about official interdictions, seems very probable to me.

AK-SL10.1: General change {Tarkalion}[Ar-Pharazôns]: Agreed.

AK-SL-10.2: Here I think we have simply to remove Nuaran Númenóren. I think we can not use Adûnakhôr as that was the title of one of Pharazôns ancestors, an d I don’t think it would have been reused.

AK-SL-13.4 & AK-SL-14: Okay, the version of Helge should be okay. I agree as well that in this special case Alkar should be replaced by Melkor in the Text of the poem and in the translation.

AK-SL-14.1: ‘Alkar the Radiant’ reminded me of the following passages, One from Myths Transformed, Text II:

… And in his thought which deceived him, for the liar shall lie unto himself, he [Melkor] believed that over the Children he might hold absolute sway and be unto them sole lord and master, as he could not be to spirits of his own kind, however subservient to himself. For they knew that the One Is, and must assent to Melkor's rebellion of their own choice; whereas he purposed to withhold from the Children this knowledge and be for ever a shadow between them and the light.
As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself.

And the second from The Tale of Adanel:

Then he [Melkor] went away, and we did not see him for a long time, and without his gifts we were poor. And there came a day when suddenly the Sun's light began to fail, until it was blotted out and a great shadow fell on the world; and all the beasts and birds were afraid. Then he came again, walking through the shadow like a bright fire.

Therefore the association of Alkar in my mind was directly to the original name of the chosen Master of the first Fall of Men, which fits the story of the Fall of Númenor very well.

AK-SL-28.1: I agree that the discussion cannot stand as it is, but I would try to remove only the contradiction:

'Yea: that one learneth day by day,' said {Herendil}[Elendur]. 'But some of the new songs are strong and heartening. Yet now AK-SL-28.1b<editorial addition the Elvish tongues are again forbidden. And >I hear that {some counsel us to abandon the old tongue. They say we should leave Eressëan, and revive the ancestral speech of Men.} Sauron {teacheth it}<editorial addition supports this>. In this at least I think he doth not well.'
'Sauron deceiveth us{ doubly. For men learned speech of the Firstborn, and therefore if we should verily go back to the beginnings we should find not the broken dialects of the wild men, nor the simple speech of our fathers, but a tongue of the Firstborn. But the}. The Eressëan is of all the tongues of the Firstborn the fairest, and they use it in converse with the Lords, and it linketh their varied kindreds one to another, and them to us. If we forsake it, we should be sundered from them, and be impoverished.{(27)} Doubtless that is what he intendeth. But there is no end to his malice. Listen now, {Herendil}[Elendur], and mark well. The time is nigh when all this evil shall bear bitter fruit, if it be not cut down. Shall we wait until the fruit be ripe, or hew the tree and cast it into the fire?'

AK-SL-30: gondowe, I see your point. But this last paragraph of the Akallabêth is in all its parts ‘prophetic’ or ‘anachronistic’, looking into a far future from the time of the Downfall. Neither the discovery of the new lands in the west that did know death as well as the old lands nor the discovery of the fact that the earth was round were ever mentioned in any narrative of the Third Age. Therefore all these events could have been still in the future at the time of Bilbo and Frodo or Saelon of The New Shadow for that matter. So a development of aircrafts (as is clearly described in this passage) is possibly as well in the future. And that flight pioneers, when they came down amid ‘wild people’ where not always unhappy to be held in awe is for sure witnessed in our own real history and used as a motive in many tales (e.g. C-3PO and his friends among the Ewoks in ‘The Return of the Jedi’).

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-09: I think a lot of the point of this story is that Elendur is much less knowledgable of the Faithful and how deep his family is into it. So I think he would not be speaking Quenya so openly. Also, later on, he is very scared that Sauron's servants will hear his father speaking ill of Sauron, and urges him to stop talking. If he thought they were being watched so closely, he would not speak Quenya out in the open.

AK-SL-16.5: Agreed, I like this very much!

AK-SL-09.7: This is actually a very good point, and so I will agree to leave it.

AK-SL-10.2: Agreed

AK-SL-14.1: This seems to me to be a very risky thing to leave, but I suppose I cannot find reasons in our rules to change it, and so I suppose we can leave it in. However, I think we must equate Alkar with Melkor, since the first occurrence of the name is not explained. I think we should do it like this:

'There{(15)} is Ilúvatar, the One; and there are the Powers, of whom the eldest in the thought of Ilúvatar was AK-SL-14.25 <editorial addition Melkor, who of old we named> Alkar the Radiant;{(16)}

This way it makes it clear that the name is specific to Men, and clarifies that it is a name of Melkor.

AK-SL-28.1: Agreed, this works.

AK-SL-30: This is very very true.

[gondowe]

Findegil wrote.
AK-SL-30: gondowe, I see your point. But this last paragraph of the Akallabêth is in all its parts ‘prophetic’ or ‘anachronistic’, looking into a far future from the time of the Downfall. Neither the discovery of the new lands in the west that did know death as well as the old lands nor the discovery of the fact that the earth was round were ever mentioned in any narrative of the Third Age. Therefore all these events could have been still in the future at the time of Bilbo and Frodo or Saelon of The New Shadow for that matter. So a development of aircrafts (as is clearly described in this passage) is possibly as well in the future. And that flight pioneers, when they came down amid ‘wild people’ where not always unhappy to be held in awe is for sure witnessed in our own real history and used as a motive in many tales (e.g. C-3PO and his friends among the Ewoks in ‘The Return of the Jedi’).

Yes, I also can see your point, and is something I thought when I faced this paragraph at first time.

But, although this could be again a misunderstanding from me of the English text, I thought and I think that, at least as the text is presented, that point of view is erroneous.
In the later Akallabeth is stated that the Númenoreans knew of the new round world (I suppose simply by the conventional sailing).
In the LOTR is implicit this round world (not said with all the words but implicit), The Eldar and the Dunedain knew it.

The "Númenoreans of old" in my opinion shouldn't be Númenoreans of the fifth or later ages, to say.
But (again with no certain security cause I have not my texts with me, I beg you pardon if I'm mistaken) I think the later Akallabeth have many passages taken directly of this version, and possibly is a fact that the same professor didn't liked this flying ships and rejected them. I don't know.

Greetings

[Findegil]

AK.SL-14.1: Okay, but must it not be ‚whom of old we named‘?

AK-SL-09: Okay, probably you are right and the removal of the Quenya is the safer way to go. I will go through each single change not yet agreed upon:

AK-SL-09.5: I think we have to remove with the Quenya the strange feeling of Isildur:

At length there was an answering call: a young voice very clear came from some distance away - like a bell out of a deep cave.
'{Man-ie, atto, man-ie?'
For a brief moment it seemed to {Elendil}[Isildur] that the words were strange. 'Man-ie, atto? }What is it, father?'{ Then the feeling passed.}
'Where art thou?'

AK-SL-13.1 to AK-SL-13.35: Again I think with the Quenya the strangeness of Isildurs feeling has to go:

… I fear the dungeons. And I love thee, I love thee. AK-SL-13.1{Atarinya tye-meláne.}'
AK-SL-13.2{Atarinya tye-meláne, my father, }I love thee: the words AK-SL-13.25{ sounded strange, but sweet: they} smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. 'AK-SL-13.3{A yonya inye tye-méla: and}And I too, my son, I love thee,' he said, feeling each syllable AK-SL-13.35{strange but }vivid as he spoke it. …

AK-SL-29.5: Right at the end of the Lost Road material Elendur does again use the Quenya phrase, and since we are now behind closed doors and in a very intimate setting we seem to agree that we would let this stand. If that is so, I think we should use part of what we have skipped in AK-SL-13.2 to AK-SL-13.25:

… Wilt thou stay?'
'Atarinya tye-meláne' said {Herendil}[Elendur] suddenly, and clasping his father's knees he laid his {[?}head there{]} and wept. AK-SL-29.5<editorial addition moved from above Atarinya tye-meláne, my father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart. >'It is an evil hour that {[?}putteth{]} such a choice on thee,' said {his father}he, laying a hand on his sons head. 'But fate calleth some to be men betimes. What dost thou say?'

AK-SL-30: Yes, it is a possibility that JRR Tolkien rejected this passage intentionally. And if we want to go on the safe side, we should remove it.
But I do not share your impression that the passage in the later Akallabêth refers to a time immediately after the Downfall. Even so I agree that in LotR the Round world might be implied (but for sure not very explicit), that does not mean much, since it could refer to the Myths Transformed cosmology where the world was round from the start. But since we rejected this (for this project), we would not be bound to it.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

AK-SL-14.1: I think you're right.

AK-SL-09.5: Agreed

AK-SL-13.1 to 13.35: Agreed

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed, but I think we need to slightly update the Quenya. It should be: Atarinya tyë-melinyë

[Findegil]

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

AK-SL-30: Yes, it is a possibility that JRR Tolkien rejected this passage intentionally. And if we want to go on the safe side, we should remove it.
But I do not share your impression that the passage in the later Akallabêth refers to a time immediately after the Downfall. Even so I agree that in LotR the Round world might be implied (but for sure not very explicit), that does not mean much, since it could refer to the Myths Transformed cosmology where the world was round from the start. But since we rejected this (for this project), we would not be bound to it.

Sorry to bring up again this.
It´s only to show that for me this passage of Akallabeth:

Thus in after days, what by the voyages of ships, what by lore and star-craft, the kings of Men knew that the world was indeed made round, and yet the Eldar were permitted still to depart and to come to the Ancient West and to Avallónë, if they would. Therefore the loremasters of Men said that a Straight Road must still be, for those that were permitted to find it.

refers to a period where still depart Eldar and I think this must be at least so later than the Fourth Age. (In my humble opinion)

Greetings

[Findegil]

gondowe wrote:

refers to a period where still depart Eldar and I think this must be at least so later than the Fourth Age. (In my humble opinion)

Very true, but still this is in the far future at the time that the narative has reached. And it is in my oppinion not necessary so that all events that are mentioned must be at the same time.

Anyhow to develop the idea of aircrafts to follow the straight road one has to understand that the ocean is bent along the round surface of the world. Thus the aircrafts are later then the knowledge of the round world fact.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Well, this is one thing we cannot be agreed. In this case I need more opinions because is posible I'm wrong but I cannot see it now.
And goes to swell the list of three or four divergences in terms of narrative "history" that we have, as far as I can remember. Apart from the structure, which for me is not important (its divergence).

Greetings

[Findegil]

gondowe, if we could not convince you, then I would say we skipt it, since neither ArcusCalion nor me where adamant on this addition.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

No, I think is better more opinions (Aiwendil, Galin, perhaps) with other arguments either for or against. The same could be said of the other divergences ... but that would be another story and in another thread.

Greetings

[Findegil]

I fully agree that more opinions are allwys very much welcome.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

Regarding the debate about flying ships: As it is currently laid out, the paragraph about flying ships and the passage about the Eldar leaving do not necessarily refer to the same time period. The paragraph about flying ships could only refer to aircraft of modern times since no aircraft are present in any tale from the third age. But if it refers to modern times, I don't think it works as it stands. The text states that the aircraft "came also to the lands of the new world, and to the East of the old world." The new world must refer to the Americas and the old world refers to Europe and Asia. The first transatlantic flights actually went from the Americas to Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transa...lantic_flights). There was a popular contest over who could do it first and it was discussed in newspapers, so presumably many people knew about it. This makes the statement "and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so." unbelievable. I doubt people viewed the first aviators as gods. Furthermore, the text states that it is because of these flights that we discovered the Earth was round, but we knew the Earth was round around the 3rd century BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth). I think this paragraph is highly problematic since it so clearly contradicts actual history. I would be OK with allusions like this to the "distant future" if they were accurate. I personally think it should be removed.

Other than that, I have a few comments:

1) The term "Powers" is used to refer to the Valar. Is there a rule for when we use "Powers" or "Valar" or are they used interchangeably? I am sorry if this was discussed in another thread; if so, just point me to it.

2) I propose a change when we introduce Pharazon for the first time:

AK-SL-02 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text c {For} Pharazôn son of Gimilkhâd {had become} [was] even more restless and eager for wealth and power than his father.

This is our first time meeting Pharazon, so using "had become" is awkward. It implies we already knew about him.

3) I am confused about the section after AK-SL-03:

For Elentir Amandil’s brother loved her, and she had turned her heart to him, and it was known that soon they would be betrothed.

Who is the "her" referring to? Unless I'm missing something, the text is unclear.

4) There appears to be the same thing said twice here:

But when {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw Pharazôn in the splendour of his young manhood come riding {[? }in{] .......... Suddenly}suddenly {Zimrahil’s}[her] heart turned towards him. And when Pharazôn was greeted upon the steps of the house their eyes met {.......... }and they were abashed.> AK-SL-05 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text a {but}And when first she saw Pharazôn her eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also. But he went away{(15)} and she remained unwed.>

"Her heart was turned to him" appears twice. I think we should combine them like this:

But when {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw Pharazôn in the splendour of his young manhood come riding {[? }in{] .......... Suddenly}suddenly {Zimrahil’s}[her] <AK-SL-04.5: moved from below eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also> heart turned towards him. And when Pharazôn was greeted upon the steps of the house their eyes met {.......... }and they were abashed.> AK-SL-05 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text a {but} {And when first she saw Pharazôn her eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also.} But he went away{(15)} and she remained unwed.>

So her eyes and heart turns to him when he arrives. Then their eyes meet and he was abashed. But he went away and she remained unwed. I think this flows better.

4) A small grammatical fix:

And sitting upon his carven throne in the city of Armenelos in the glory of his power, AK-SL-08 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text a and he found it too little to appease

The second "and" should be removed:

And sitting upon his carven throne in the city of Armenelos in the glory of his power, AK-SL-08 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text a {and} he found it too little to appease

5) I think this addition makes the text flow better (it is from the third version of the Fall of Numenor -- what Christopher Tolkien calls FN III -- in HoME 9)

Then Ar-Pharazôn, being besotted, and walking under the shadow of death, for his span was drawing towards its end, hearkened to Sauron; and he began to ponder in his heart how he might make war upon the Valar. <AK-FN-01 HoME 9; The third version of the Fall of Numenor Therefore at his command the Numenoreans made a great armament; and their might and skill had grown exceedingly in those days, for they had in these matters the aid of Sauron.> <AK-SL-08 <HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôn; text aHe was long preparing this design, and he spoke not openly of it, yet it could not be hidden from all.

Without this there is no explicit statement that Ar-Pharazon is preparing an armament.

6) I have a question about the usage of you/your vs. thou/thy. As an example, in a speech by Amandil:

But for {you}[thou] and {your}[thy] folk, my son, I counsel that you should prepare yourselves other ships, and put aboard all such things as your hearts cannot bear to part with...

The usage is mixed here. What are the rules for when you/your is used and when thou/thy is used?

7) I think we should remove any instances of the words sounding strange in the Lost Road section. The reason they sound strange is because of the frame narrative of traveling back in time. I found one section where it was not removed:

'Atarinya {tye-meláne}[tyë-melinyë]' said {Herendil}[Elendur] suddenly, and clasping his father's knees he laid his {[?}head there{]} and wept. AK-SL-29.5<editorial addition moved from above Atarinya {tye-meláne}[tyë-melinyë], my father, I love thee: the words sounded strange, but sweet: they smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart.

I don't see why Isildur would find the words strange. I propose we change this to:

'Atarinya {tye-meláne}[tyë-melinyë]' said {Herendil}[Elendur] suddenly, and clasping his father's knees he laid his {[?}head there{]} and wept. AK-SL-29.5b<editorial addition moved from above Atarinya {tye-meláne}[tyë-melinyë], my father, I love thee: the words {sounded strange, but sweet: they} smote {Elendil}[Isildur]'s heart.

8) I propose another addition from FN III:

the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans.

There is an extra detail in FN III:

the fleets of Ar-Pharazôn came up out of the deeps of the sea and encompassed Avallónë and all the isle of Eressëa, and the Eldar mourned <AK-FN-02 HoME 9; The third version of the Fall of Numenor and sickness came upon them>, for the light of the setting sun was cut off by the cloud of the Númenóreans.

9) Another small detail from FN III:

[QUOTE Then Manwë upon the Mountain called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government ...[/QUOTE]

With the addition:

<B]AK-FN-02 HoME 9; The third version of the Fall of Numenor[/B] But the heart of Manwe was sorrowful and dismayed, and {Then Manwë} upon the Mountain [he] called upon Ilúvatar, and for that time the Valar laid down their government

Sorry if these additions do not follow the rules of the project, I read through them and I think I followed the rules. These additions are details from an older work which weren't explicitly rejected by Tolkien, do not contradict anything, and make the text flow better in my opinion.

[Findegil]

AK-SL-30; The Flying ships:

the paragraph about flying ships and the passage about the Eldar leaving do not necessarily refer to the same time period

Yes, and it should not.

The paragraph about flying ships could only refer to aircraft of modern times since no aircraft are present in any tale from the third age.

Well, there is a bit of time gap between the Third Age and ’modern times’. And in the same chapter we speak about Rockets and steel-ships which are in use in Númenor itself during the time of Saurons sojourn – even so we do not hear of them later in the Third Age.

This makes the statement "and they took these mariners of the air to be gods, and some of the Númenóreans were content that this should be so." unbelievable. I doubt people viewed the first aviators as gods.

Well, I don’t think about Europe or North-America, but about undeveloped areas in South-America, Africa or Asia. By the way a similar thing is said about the Númenoreans that came back to Middle-earth.

Furthermore, the text states that it is because of these flights that we discovered the Earth was round, but we knew the Earth was round around the 3rd century BC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth).

That is rue, but we denied and or forgot it again. Anyhow, if the reference is to modern aircraft invention it is true that at that time we did know about the roundness of the world. But as said above these saylors of the flying ships are probabaly not the early aviators, like Lindbergh, Marckham and co.
But it is clear that this is a very critical passage. To be on the save side we should remove it, or not take it up.

1) I don’t think we ever used ‘Powers’ to replace ‘Gods’. {Gods}[Valar] was a general change. So ‘Powers’ is only used if it was used in the original text of JRR Tolkien.

2) AK-SL-02: I agree that a change is recomandable here. But ‘was’ is not much better for me, so what about ‘became’?

3) The reference of ‘her’ is in the sentence before: ‘his[Pharazôn’s] cousin , daughter of Inziladûn‘, so Míriel is meant. As we did not change this passage, the unclearness is in the original and I wouldn’t change it.

4) I am okay with this change, but I think your editing is a bit defective, as you have left in the move passage at the end of the passage. So what about this:

And Amandil and Pharazôn rode in Andúnië and Elentir and {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw them afar as they {[?}stood{] .....}/ watched for them,/ for Elentir loved his brother. But when {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel] saw Pharazôn in the splendour of his young manhood come riding {[? }in{] .......... Suddenly}suddenly {Zimrahil}[Zimraphel]'s AK-SL-04.5{heart turned towards him}<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a {but when first she saw Pharazôn her} eyes and her heart were turned to him, for his beauty, and for his wealth also>. And when Pharazôn was greeted upon the steps of the house their eyes met {.......... }and they were abashed.>AK-SL-05b<HoME 12; The History of the Akallabêth; Note on the marriage of Míriel and Pharazôns; text a But he went away{(15)} and she remained unwed.>

4) AK-SL-08: Agreed.

5); 8) and 9) Ak-FN-01; Ak-FN-02 and Ak-FN-03: Nice find! I agree to these additions. There nothing against the usage of such passages.

6) thou, thy versus you/your: What we tried was to have all references to Elendil and his belonging as thou and thy, while all references to him and others as a group you and yours.

7) I think we did not removed that feeling in that special case, because her for the only time his son uses Quenya, which at this time in Númenor could feel strange.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Airships"Your objections make a lot of assumptions. It is true that these flying ships could not feasibly have been built till after LotR, but as Fin says, between even the Fourth Age and our current time is an enormous gap. Tolkien posits that we are currently at the end of the sixth Age (in 1960s) so it is conceivable that we are in the very beginnings of the seventh age at this time. The Second and Third ages are around 3400 and 3200 years long each, and even if the next 3 were shorter, that still means a time period of around 9000 years between the end of LotR and the current year. This is plenty of time for the Numenoreans to have developed airships of their own and flown to the new lands, and for people to have taken them to be gods. I do not think the assumption that it must refer to our own historical discovery of flight holds water. In addition, the text does not say this is the reason they knew the earth was round, only that it was the final confirmation of this fact.

1) As Fin says, we did not make this any sort of general change. Tolkien uses the term at times. There are times where we may have changed 'Valar' to 'Powers' in the Akallabeth text, but only if CT has said that this change would reflect the original state of Tolkien's text as opposed to his own edited version in the published Sil.

2) Agreed, good catch. I am fine with 'was'.

3) I agree with Fin, the reference is to his cousin who is mentioned just before, and any confusion is included in Tolkien's own wording, so we can't change it.

4) I like Fin's recommendation best, since it keeps more and flows just as nice.

AK-SL-08: Agreed, nice catch!

5) Awesome find!

6) This was, as Fin says, a delicate balance, and it may need some revision.

7) The idea is as Fin says that it is shocking to hear the Quenya from his son, who was almost expressing support for Sauron earlier, and it signals that he might not be as brainwashed as we think. However, if you are adamant that does not work, we can remove it.

8) Good find!

9) Great find! I would just add a 'he' after 'mountain' to make the grammar work with the new construction.

I just want to say, that gandalf, your combing through our drafts has been really helpful and I can already see great improvement in flow and structure and substance, so thank you for your tireless efforts!

[gandalf85]

I will try to respond to both Fin and Arcus:

[Airships]: I hadn't even considered the idea that the passage is referring to a period after the third age but before our modern discovery of flight. You guys are right, this passage could refer to that time period. I suppose this passage doesn't break any of the rules set forth for the project, and I don't have any other objections to it, so I vote we keep it.

1) Got it.

2) The word "became" would work if we had already been introduced to the character, I think "was" works best.

3) OK, I agree.

4) I agree, I like Fin's recommendation too.

6) I think this rule makes sense.

7) Re-reading it, I think it does work, I vote we keep it.

Arcus, no problem! You guys have done the vast majority of the heavy lifting, I think you've done an admirable job combining so many disparate sources into something coherent.

[Findegil]

2) My problem with ‘was’, is that I think we tell later in this chapter how Pharazôns becomes ‘even more restless and eager for wealth and power than his father‘.

Posted by gandalf85:

You guys have done the vast majority of the heavy lifting, I think you've done an admirable job combining so many disparate sources into something coherent.

Thanks for the flowers, but I fully agree to ArcusCalion, that critisem of readers like you bring this work a great deal forward.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Can someone tell me if the 'First Phase' of the Later Quenta (in Morgoth's Ring) was written before or after the last version of the Akallabeth?

I ask because in the 'First Phase' there is an occurrence of the name 'Avallone' used for the entire island, instead of the easternmost city:

*[footnote to the text] 'Avallónë' also it was after called, signifying the isle that lies nighest unto the Valar in Valinor. Quoth Ælfwine. [Placed in the body of the text by the typist of LQ 1 but subsequently reinstated as a footnote.]

Also, the etymology of the element -lone in 'Avallone' translates to "Isle" - you'd think that a better name for a haven would be something like 'Avallonde' (i.e. -londe meaning "Haven"), but that's just speculation.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Arvegil145

Can someone tell me if the 'First Phase' of the Later Quenta (in Morgoth's Ring) was written before or after the last version of the Akallabeth?

I believe the First Phase of LQ is from about 1951, while the latest version of the Akallabeth is from c. 1958.

[Arvegil145]

I see - by '1958', do you mean just additions and corrections? Since I was under the impression that the final version of the Akallabeth story (as such) was written by Tolkien around c. 1951 or so.


Anyway - the motivation behind my previous reply is that I'm not quite sure that Tolkien made up his mind about whether or not 'Avallone' was the name of the city or the name for Tol Eressea as a whole.

And if we are going to keep the version where the name refers to the city/harbour in the east of Tol Eressea, I think we should rename it to 'Avallonde', since:

1) The name is already attested

2) The element '-londe' means 'Harbour' - as opposed to '-lone' (meaning 'Island')

[Findegil]

Avallone could be the name of the habour, even so '-lone' means island. It could be a shortend version of some longer name meaning things like the 'habour on the Island near Valinor'

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I would like to say I am categorically against changing the name to Avalonde based on a hunch. Even if it seems odd in meaning, it is not for us to make up new names in this way it seems to me.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

I would like to say I am categorically against changing the name to Avalonde based on a hunch. Even if it seems odd in meaning, it is not for us to make up new names in this way it seems to me.

'Avallonde' is not a made-up name - it appears in the Drowning of Anadune.


See the entry on Eldamo for a more in-depth look at the development of the name: https://eldamo.org/content/words/word-3289261925.html

[Arvegil145]

Isn't the Akallabeth basically a fusion of two sources, Elvish and Mannish (i.e. The Fall of Numenor and the Drowning of Anadune)?

If so, shouldn't we expect certain things (such as the 'flying ships') to be present in one telling of the story and not the other?

In other words, just because something is missing in the Akallabeth itself, doesn't necessarily mean that Tolkien rejected it.

And since we're not creating a 'work of literature' so much as a giant 'lore compendium' (so to speak), I think we have the luxury of making things explicit that Tolkien might otherwise not.

[Elvellon]

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

AK-SL-29.5: Agreed, but I think we need to slightly update the Quenya. It should be: Atarinya tyë-melinyë

Slightly off-topic, but I'm curious what the LOTR-era Quenya would be for the earlier phrases that aren't being used?

• Man-ie, atto, man-ie?’
• A yonya inye tye-méla