General changes in TftE

[ArcusCalion]

I have a comment about the change Kalakiryan -> Calacirya

In "the Road Goes Ever On" Tolkien glosses "Calaciryan, Calaciryandë as "the region of Eldamar (Elvenhome) in and near the entrance to the ravine, where the Light was brighter and the land more beautiful" It is theorized that -yandë is a Quenya suffix meaning "place of" or "land" which is rarely used, as it appears only in words like Valariandë and Ossiriandë. In the Sindarin, however, it is more common as -ian or -ien, and appears in many place names. Thus, the term: Calaciryan would appear to be a valid term in the final understanding, in reference to the land around the Calacirya. Should this be changed in our texts to reflect this?

[Findegil]

I would say yes if the reference is to the land around and not to the ravine.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

Ah, so Calaciryan (or the long form Calaciryande) is the surrounding land, while the Calacirya is the pass itself. That seems to make sense.

[ArcusCalion]

A minor change, but the Quenya version of Thingol given in LQ (Singollo) was replaced in Q&E with Sindicollo. We should make a general change throughout. It is only used three times I believe, so it is not a major change.

[ArcusCalion]

Another minor question, but in the Notes from the Shibboleth (by far the latest notes on the subject as far as I can tell) Orodreth (given as an altered form of Rodreth) was replaced. This is how we have edited it in the current draft:

Quenya Artaher (stem artaher-) 'noble lord' was correctly Sindarized as Arothír. (altered to Orodreth because of his love of the mountains.)

However, the parenthetical section was taken from a reference to the earlier name Rodreth, and now that this has changed, it does not make sense. Should we then change all occurrences of Orodreth to Arothír (with the long í as per the VT41 SF notes)?

[Findegil]

I have taken up {Singollo}[Sindicollo]. But for Orordreth we used the argument that the names must be valid sitll since we have ruler of Gondor called by the same name.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

While I see the logic that the fact of the name existing for a lord of Gondor proves it's a valid name, I do not see how it makes it any more applicable to Arothir as a name.

[Findegil]

Well, many (if not all) Truchsess of Gondor were named after 'heros' of the First Age. I would not assume that there was a second charachter call Orodreth after whom Orodreth of Gondor was named. We rather thought that Tolkien if faced by the fact that Orordreth of Gondor existed would have thought that Arothír got the old epithet for the same reasons. (With the Change of the name the charachter does not change, so the feature that warranted the name remains.)

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

We have to add one change at least:
{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

Should we then change the other kindreds of the Dwarves to match this? The Fire-beards, Black-locks etc. as opposed to Firebeards and Blacklocks?

[Findegil]

That is a difficult question. But we have used a similar argument of consistency for the ‘Eredlindon’ and ‘Ered-Lindon’ versus ‘Ered Lindon’ case. So I think we should include these changes:
{Blacklocks}[Black-locks] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.
{Broadbeams}[Broad-beams] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.
{Firebeards}[Fire-beards] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.
{Ironfists}[Iron-fists] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.
{Stiffbeards}[Stiff-beards] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.
{Stonefoots}[Stone-foots] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

A general change found in Tal-Elmar:

{Tal-elmar}[Tal-Elmar] due to the continuation of Tal-Elmar.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gandalf85]

After reviewing "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar," we decided on the change:

{re-birth}[re-housing]
{re-born}[re-housed]

[Findegil]

Tolkien later used always ‘c’ instead of ‘k’ in elvish names. Probabaly we will find a lot more, but here are the first such changes:

{Valakirka}[Valacirca] per later use of c instead of k.

{Koivie-neni} and {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] per Sil77.

{Helkar}[Helcar] per later change of k to c.

{Helkarakse}, {Helkaraxe} and {Helkaraxë}[Helcaraxë]

{Kalaquendi}[Calaquendi] per later use of c for k.

{Orokarni}[Orocarni] per later use of c for k.

{Ork}[Orc] and {Orkor} and {Orks}[Orcs] per later use of c for k. But keep ‘Orkish’ since the pronaunciation of ‘Orcish’ would be completely of.

While adding these general changes to our list I found this one:
{Palisor}[Endor] per QS77
In QS77 we find:

The Noldor came at last far into the north of Arda; and they saw the first teeth of the ice that floated in the sea, and knew that they were drawing nigh to the Helcaraxë. For between the land of Aman that in the north curved eastward, and the east-shores of Endor (which is Middle-earth) that bore westward, there was a narrow strait, through which the chill waters of the Encircling Sea and the waves of Belegaer flowed together, and there were vast fogs and mists of deathly cold, and the sea-streams were filled with clashing hills of ice and the grinding of ice deep-sunken. …

This passage is drived directly from AAm, §157 but their the name is ‘Endar’. But in the commentary for this § we find:

Endar 'Middle-earth'. The form Endon was used earlier in AAm of 'the midmost point' of Middle-earth ($38), where it was changed on the typescript to Endor (p. 80). These forms Endon and Endor had appeared in the Ambarkanta and maps (see p. 76, $38). In The Lord of the Rings Quenya Endore, Sindarin Ennor, means not the midmost point but Middle-earth itself, and in a letter of 1967 (Letters no.297, p. 384) my father referred to Q. Endor, S. Ennor = Middle-earth, with the etymology en(ed) 'middle' and (n)dor 'land (mass)'; cf. also Aran Endor 'King of Middle-earth', note 9 above. But in the present passage the form Endar is perfectly clear, as also again in $$158, 163. The typist however in each case, for some reason, typed Endor, and my father did not alter it. On the other hand, in the title of the next section in AAm (p. 129) the typist put Endar as in the manuscript, and again my father let this stand. In the published Silmarillion (p. 89) I printed, hesitantly, the form Endor.
This passage concerning the Helkaraxe derives not from QS but from AV 2 (annal 2994, almost the same in AV 1), and it is very notable that it remains in complete congruence with the cosmography of the Ambarkanta (see IV.238, 254).

So we are left with two issues:
- We have to find a better replacement for Palisor. I do not know how we came to Endor anyway since it fitted in neither definition. Palisor is introduced thus in the BoLT:

Behold the woods of the Great Lands, even in Palisor the midmost region where the pinewoods murmur unceasingly, ...

If we look up all it uses we find that Palisor included both {Koiven-neni}[Cuiviénen] where the Elves awoke and Murmenalda in Hildórien where Men awoke. The best fitting name for this from Ambrakanta Map IV would be ‘Mid-Land’. So I propose:
{Palisor}[Mid-Land] due to Ambrakanta Map IV
- And we have to find a replacement for Endor as the name of the midmost point of Middle-Earth, since Endor is used for Middle-earth it self. And Endon/Endor does not only appears on the Ambrakanta Maps but as well in our text. With no better idea at the moment I would suggest to geo back to Endon. Thus:
{Endor}[Endon] if the midmost point of Middle-Earth is meant.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

We have to add one change at least:
{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant.

Respectfully
Findegil

Are you sure?

Because in my 50th Anniversary copy of the LOTR, it says:

Durin is the name that the Dwarves used for the eldest of the Seven Fathers of their race, and the ancestor of all the kings of the Longbeards.

- Appendix A, 'Durin's Folk', p. 1,071

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Findegil

Tolkien later used always ‘c’ instead of ‘k’ in elvish names.

While Tolkien did move in the general direction of replacing 'k' with 'c', this was far from universal, and many times he used both the 'k' and 'c' variations in names in a single text!

[Findegil]

{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant. I am not sure about this, but I think it is longstanding general change, that I took up without lookking up the source. I will compare some editions of LotR later and come up with a proposal. Mostlikley the 50th-Aniversary edition will rule.

'c' for 'k' in evish names: It is clear that we are systematic with this change than Tolkien ever has been (or could be, due to his way to write and work with manuscripts). If any name strics you as 'resisting' change, meaning that there is never found an example of it writen with 'c' or some good argument why it would not be changed to 'c' like in 'orkish' we could take that name out.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

Tolkien in his published works alway changed k for c. The texts we manage are not text revised for publishing.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by gondowe

Tolkien in his published works alway changed k for c. The texts we manage are not text revised for publishing.

Greetings

Fair enough - it's only a cosmetic change anyway. However, what about cases such as 'Melkor'?

[Arvegil145]

Also, since I don't really know where else to ask this:

What is the consensus here on using material from The History of The Lord of the Rings?

[gondowe]

There is examples of using Melcor and Tulcas by Tolkien himself in the texts edited by CT. Melkor and Tulkas is rooted by the tradition of CT, also Kementari. The rest as Orcs, Orkor, Elenmacil, Osanwe centa, Essecenta Eldarinwa, etc up to you.
He used the k to know the real fonema he wanted to use. But in publishing he wanted to use the c as is spoken in latin, celtic or OE for example.

Greetings

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by gondowe

There is examples of using Melcor and Tulcas by Tolkien himself in the texts edited by CT. Melkor and Tulkas is rooted by the tradition of CT, also Kementari. The rest as Orcs, Orkor, Elenmacil, Osanwe centa, Essecenta Eldarinwa, etc up to you.
He used the k to know the real fonema he wanted to use. But in publishing he wanted to use the c as is spoken in latin, celtic or OE for example.

Greetings

Huh...you're right - he does use 'Melcor' in more than one occasion, the one in Vinyar Tengwar 49 being the latest I think (from 1968).

Still feels weird though, given how used to the name I am.

Anyway, I agree.

[Aiwendil]

"Melcor" and "Tulcas" do occur, but even in very late texts we also have "Melkor" (e.g. in the Shibboleth inf 1968 and in several of the 1972-73 texts given in "Last Writings"). Valarin-derived names, it seems, did not fall under the general late policy of preferring "c" to "k" in translating Quenya, even if he did toy with applying the policy to Valarin as well.

So I really think we must keep the "k" in names like Melkor, Tulkas, and Kementari, even though we replace it with "c" in Quenya names like Valacirca and Elemmacil.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

"Melcor" and "Tulcas" do occur, but even in very late texts we also have "Melkor" (e.g. in the Shibboleth inf 1968 and in several of the 1972-73 texts given in "Last Writings"). Valarin-derived names, it seems, did not fall under the general late policy of preferring "c" to "k" in translating Quenya, even if he did toy with applying the policy to Valarin as well.

So I really think we must keep the "k" in names like Melkor, Tulkas, and Kementari, even though we replace it with "c" in Quenya names like Valacirca and Elemmacil.

Again, I'm pretty zen on all of this. Whatever the consensus is, I'll go with it.

[Arvegil145]

What is the basis of the 'Eledhwen' > 'Edhelwen' change? Because the Kinship of the Half-elven (c. 1964) has 'Eledwen' instead (I think?).

https://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/...Half-elven.jpg

[Findegil]

Well, we followed the HoMe XI, Index that stated it was the later form. The references given in the Index are to The Grey Annals.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Does anyone here have the new Collected Poems by Hammond and Scull?

Because the book has the original Mîms Klage poem in English, titled The Complaint of Mîm the Dwarf in the table of contents.

[Findegil]

I think it arrieved last week, but my wife ordered it and catched it, so I think I will get it as a Christmas gift. So I have to wait a bit.