2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees

[Aiwendil]

VT-LT-05: I realized that here I missed a change of ilwë to ilmen:

VT-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called ilmen that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder[.]>

VT-LT-16: I'm not sure I agree that we need a concluding statement for the chapter. Many chapters of the QS/LQ end with little fanfare.

However, if we do use this statement, I would retain the 'now', which is perfectly fine referring to a past time:

VT-LT-16 <LT Therefore {is}[was] Valinor now built, and there {is}[was] great peace there, and the {Gods}[Valar] in joy, for {those quarrelsome spirits dwell not much among them, and Melko}[Melkor] {comes}[came] not nigh.>

Originally Posted by gondowe

Perhaps Arvalin is changed to Avathar many times, where Avathar is the south, for example in Mandos dwelings ?(maybe I'm oxidized geographically).

My understanding of the names is this:

- In LT (or at least in "The Coming of the Valar"), "Arvalin" and "Eruman" were synonymous and refer to the southern waste between the mountains and the sea. There is no northern counterpart, because on the north side the sea comes right up to the mountains.

- In the latest post-LotR conception, "Avathar" is the southern waste and "Araman" the northern waste between the mountains and the sea.

So it should be a simple matter of changing both "Eruman" and "Arvalin" to "Avathar" at every occurrence in LT.

In the case of Mandos that you mention, we have:

So fair were these abodes and so great the brilliance of the trees of Valinor that Námo and [Vairë] his wife {of tears} might not endure to stay there long, but fared away far to the northward of those regions, where beneath the roots of the most cold and northerly of the Mountains of Valinor, that rise here again almost to their height nigh [Avathar], they begged Aulë to delve them a hall.

Note that this is not saying that Mandos (in the north) is near Avathar; rather, it's saying that the mountains in the north are high, just like they are near Avathar. So I think this is fine.

[Findegil]

VT-LT-16: I am okay with the "now" and I am not adamant on using this sentence.

Arvalin: It seems time to do this once right through:

a) The first occurrence is in VT-EX-02 when the Valar arrive in the West. Since they come from the war against Utumno we could suppose that they came from the north. Therefore I would use “Araman” here.

b) Next is VT-EX-03b when the Valar collect the rocks to build the Pelori. Here “Araman and Avathar” seems the right replacement.

c) In VT-EX-03.1 we are told that “Erumani” is very flat now due to the collecting of the rocks be the Valar. So again I think “Araman and Avathar” is the right replacement.

d) VT-LT-06 we are told that the mist that Aulë used to build the house of Lóriën, Murmuran, was gathered beyond “Arvalin”. I am a bit lost here. Murmuran is in the south of Valinor, but the farthest south is rather connected in Tolkiens Legendarium with “heat” then with cold, So I would again opt for “Araman” as a replacement, but I would like to here other opinions on this case.

e) VT-LT-12b is as well not easy: It compares the height of the Pelori above Manods with that “nigh Arvalin”. The comparison must be with Taniquetil which as seen from Mandos is nigh to the southern coastland even so, as far as I remember, it is on the northern side of the bay of Eldamar. So in this case I would see “Avarthar” as replacement.

f) The next case is EP-EX-12.1 which we already agree upon to replace “Arvalin” by “Eldamar”.

g) to j) There are four occurrences of “Arvalin” in EPE-EX-17:

g) The first is referring to the “south shore of the Shadowy Seas”, which means we have to take “Avathar” replacing “Arvalin or Erumani”.

h) The second say that “beyond Arvalin” are the mountains of Valinor, here we should take “Avathar and Araman”.

i) The next tells that the bay of Eldamar is north of “Arvalin”; here again “Avathar” is the right replacement.

j) Next comes a queer statement that about Taniquetil “looking across Arvalin half south and half north across that mighty Bay of Faery”. I think we have to edit this to: “looking across {Arvalin half}[Avathar] south and {half}[Araman] north across that mighty Bay of {Faery}[Eldarmar]”.

k) EPE-EX-18: Here the one side of Taniquetil is in the gloom of “Arvalin” and we should replace it with “Avathar and Araman”.

l) Between SM-02.7 and SM-03 is one occurrence of “Erumani” in the phrase “happiness will be once more twixt Erumani and the Sea”. In this case I think we should replace it be “Avathar”. More correct would be “Avathar and Araman” but that is awakward due to the double “and” and if we have to chose than the south is probably better since in the north are Mandos, which is by no means a place of happyness.

m) SM-EX-10.8 has Tilion pass swiftly over “either Arvalin or Aruman” which we naturally change to “either Avathar or Araman”.

n) In Luthien song of lengthening she sings of “Gilim the giant of Eruman”. What so ever is meant by this we must change it “Araman” I suppose (happyliy that does fit the rhyming to “Glend the sword of Nan”. (Thinking now about it, “Gilim the giant of Araman” could be a mountain, since we are told that in the north near to Mandos the Pelori were nearly as high as Taniquetil.)

o) There is one occurrence in the Ambrakanta draft of AcrusCalion where it descripes the coastlands of the western continent and specifies “South is Arvalin” and “North is Eruman”, so that the replacements are clear “Avathar” to the south and “Araman” to the north.

Most of the cases are clear but I would like to have some opinion about d), e), j) and l). And of course as allway you are free to disagree with my opinion in any of the cases.

Respectfully
Findegil

[gondowe]

In my humble opinion there are many cases that must be skipped the word simply without loss of sense. Always is less risky.
And for example in c) can be used Aman
In d) can be used Avathar, in my opinion, the mist could be located in hot and cold regions
In e) I'm confused, perhaps is due to my understanding of English translated into Spanish.

The other cases I have to reach the chapters, with time.
Greetings

[ArcusCalion]

I agree with all of these, except for d) as I think the correct geography is more important than the south = heat general rule. The entirety of the south was not hot, as the AMbarkanta tells us that the Helcaraxe was only 1 of 4 such locations, 2 of which were in the south. I say stick with Avathar

[Aiwendil]

c) I think 'Araman and Avathar' is right. 'Aman' doesn't really work because I don't think it's meant to be implied that they cleared rocks out of the whole continent, just out of the regions east of the Pelori.
d) Like gondowe and ArcusCalion, I would go with 'Avathar' here. Mists aren't necessarily cold, and the far south is not necessarily warm.
e) I agree that it must be Taniquetil and the neighbouring mountains that are referred to. Since the point of view of this sentence is from the north, it makes sense to describe those mountains as 'nigh Avathar' - i.e. down south. So I agree on 'Avathar'.
j) If Taniquetil is on the southern side of the Bay of Eldamar, I think we can edit this a little less obtrusively: 'looking across {Arvalin}[Avathar] half south and half north across that mighty Bay of Faery'.
l) Since 'twixt Erumani and the sea' refers to Valinor, we could change it to 'twixt the Pelori and the sea' or even just 'twixt the mountains and the sea'. However, 'twixt Araman and the sea' seems fine as well.

Otherwise, I agree with Findegil's suggestions.

[Aiwendil]

One other thought - I wonder if in VT-LT-05 we should introduce the name 'Ilmarin' (from LotR and the unfinished LotR index) for Manwe's halls?

[Findegil]

c) I agree that ‘Aman’ does not work. It is the coast lands that were flattened by the Valar Valinor itself was already a plain, as we are told.
d) Okay, if all of you are fine with ‘Avarthar’ containing some mist, we will go with that.
j) Aiwendil’s suggestion sound good to me, but is 'Faery' okay in our version?
l) The reference is strictly speaking to Valinor and Eldamar. Therefore 'the Pelóri' or 'the Mountains' does not work so well for me, even so I agree that 'Avathar' is also not perfect that is nearer to Tolkien's own (imperfect) phrase.

Ilmarin: Good catch! But isn’t that a bit like opening the box of Pandora? If we take ‘Ilmarin’, what then about ‘Luvailin’ ‘a mere in Eldamar under the shadow of Oiolossë’? I am inclined to take both. Luvailin belongs to a later chapter, when we speak about the building of Tirion, but Ilamrin should be inserted here:

But Manwë Súlimo, highest and holiest of the Valar, sat upon the borders of the West, forsaking not in his thought the Outer Lands. For his throne was set in majesty upon the pinnacle of Taniquetil, which was the highest of the mountains of the world, standing upon the margin of the Seas. VT-LT-05<LT That house was builded of marbles white and blue and stood amid the fields of snow, and its roofs were made of a web of that blue air called {ilwë}ilmen that is above the white and grey. This web did Aulë and his wife contrive, but Varda spangled it with stars, and Manwë dwelt thereunder.> VT-EX-37.3 <LotR A Reader’s Companion, Many Meetings, 235 (I:247). Ilmarin For this dwelling of Manwë, Lord of the Valar (the Elder King) upon Oiolossë was used in verse VT-EX-37.4{for}[u]about[/b] Valinor> the name VT-EX-37.3 <LotR A Reader’s Companion, Many Meetings, 235 (I:247). Ilmarin Ilmarin {as ‘},”mansion of the high airs”>. Spirits in the shape of hawks and eagles flew ever to and from his halls; …

Respectfully
Findegil

[ArcusCalion]

I think these are all good. But I would change "Bay of Faery" to "Bay of Eldamar"

[ArcusCalion]

Another addition from MT note on the stars:

..... for the very stones and waters were hallowed.
VT-EX-04.25 <MT {Later, when the Valar took refuge from Melkor, and the imminent ruin of Arda, and built and fortified Valinor in Aman, it} It was Varda who made the great dome above Valinor, to keep out any spirits or spies of Melkor. It was made as a simulacrum of the true firmament (Tar-menel), and the patterns were therein repeated, but with apparent stars (or 'sparks': tinwi) of greater relative size to the total visible area. So that the lesser firmament of Valinor (Nur-menel) was very brilliant.
From this work (chiefly: but also her original demiurgic labors [and later Star-making] were included) she was called ‘Star-kindler'. [Footnote: {elen}[Elen] properly referred to the real stars of Eä (but could also naturally be transferred to their imagines). The words tinwë, ñillë’ (tin ‘spark', ngil ‘silver glint’) and Sindarin tim, gil referred properly to the Valinorian imagines. Hence Quenya Tintallë from tinta cause to sparkle, but also Elentári Queen of Stars'; Sindarin Elbereth, but also Gilthoniel.]>
Therefore the Valar and ......

I know Aiwendil expressed some reservations about the Dome of Varda, so this addition might be somewhat contested.

[Elvellon]

Hey everybody. The work here is so much deeper and more impressive than I could have imagined! I hope I'm not intruding by resurrecting a finished thread for a few tiny things I found, but I want to be helpful all the same. I'm new to participating in this project, so apologies if I don't have the procedure quite down yet...

In VT-EX-36b and VT-EX-36.5 there are two instances of "Iluvatar" instead of "Ilúvatar".

Also in VT-EX-36.5, there is "Yavanna Palúrien" where it should be "Yavanna Kementári".

In VT-EX-38 "elves and men" is used. As far as I know, Elves is always capitalized. Lowercase "men" is used sometimes in the Silmarillion, but I would probably capitalize it here.

In VT-LT-06 "Avarthar" should be Avathar.

In VT-LT-14 "labored" should be "laboured" and "humors" should be "humours".

In general VT-LT-14 seems to be largely a repetition of Vala-04.2 in the Valaquenta - specifically "she dwells alone," and "her halls are west of West, nigh to the borders of the World".

Edit: I somehow missed the discussion of VT-LT-14 on page 1, so my last comment can probably be ignored. However, I did want to address one other thing in VT-LT-13c which is the changing tenses in the paragraph. Here is what I would suggest if it is actually a problem:

Thither came the sons of Men to hear their doom, and thither {are}[were] they brought by all the multitude of ills that {Melko}[Melkor]'s evil music set within the world. Slaughters and fires, hungers and mishaps, diseases and blows dealt in the dark, cruelty and bitter cold and anguish and their own folly {bring}[brought] them here; and {Fui}[Námo] {reads}[read] their hearts.

[Findegil]

Thank you for pointing out the typos.

About VL-LT-13c: I am hestistant to change these. Even if Aman is removed when the text was written or is read, still the fëa of Men would go to that hall. Such shifts in the tense used are found in some palces when Tolkien writes about Valinor/Aman.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

I still think we should adopt the 'Indis, daughter of Ingwe' conception, as per PoME (pp. 364-5) - granted, it's not explicit, but in the light of NoME I fail to see any other option: after all, in all the previous versions of Indis and her relationship to Ingwe the genealogical distance was minimal (i.e. 'sister of Ingwe' or 'niece of Ingwe').

[Findegil]

Indis as sister/sister-daughter/daughter of Ingwë: This was discussded under DoV-FM-04 & DoV-FM-05, but of course without the input from NoME. And if we take up the change it will as well make a change necessary in Capter "6 OF Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalië / Here are some of the chief names of Finwë and his descendants: / 1. [The names of Finwë and his spouses]"Where Indis is named "the daughter of King Ingwë's sister". I will mark that passage as EPE-EX-21.07.
Now to the point itself: In the light of NoME I agree that Indis as the daugther of Ingwë is probably better. Tha means we would have:

... His second wife was Indis, which means 'great or valiant woman'. No other names are recorded. EPE-EX-21.07 She is said to have been the daughter of King Ingwë{'s sister}.
...
...
...
§23 It came to pass that after three years more Finwë took as second wife Indis the fair. She was in all ways unlike Míriel. She was not of the Noldor but of the Vanyar, being the DoV-FM-04b {sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and she was golden-haired and tall and exceedingly swift of foot. She did not labour with her hands, but made music and wove words into song; and there was ever light and mirth about her while the bliss of Aman lasted.
...
...
...
§27 In one year from their meeting upon the Mountain Finwë, King of the Noldor, wedded Indis, DoV-FM-05b{sister}[daughter] of Ingwë; and the Vanyar and Noldor for the most part rejoiced. ...

Respectfully
Findegil

[Arvegil145]

Just for the sake of transparency, here's the entire note 53 to the Shibboleth from the PoME (pp. 364-5), including CT's commentary in the brackets:

When Aragorn, descended in long line from Elros, wedded Arwen in the third union of Men and Elves, the lines of all the Three Kings of the High Elves (Eldar), Ingwë, Finwë, and Olwë and Elwë were united and alone preserved in Middle-earth. Since Lúthien was the noblest, and the most fair and beautiful, of all the Children of Eru remembered in ancient story, the descendants of that union were called 'the children of Lúthien'. The world has grown old in long years since then, but it may be that their line has not yet ended. (Lúthien was through her mother, Melian, descended also from the Máyar, the people of the Valar, whose being began before the world was made. Melian alone of all those spirits assumed a bodily form, not only as a raiment but as a permanent habitation in form and powers like to the bodies of the Elves. This she did for love of Elwë; and it was permitted, no doubt because this union had already been foreseen in the beginning of things, and was woven into the Amarth of the world, when Eru first conceived the being of his children, Elves and Men, as is told (after the manner and according to the understanding of his children) in that myth that is named The Music of the Ainur.)

[As is said in the text at this point Arwen was descended from Finwë both in the line of Fingolfin (through Elrond) and in the line of Finarfin (through Celebrían); but she was also descended from Elwë (Thingol) through Elrond's mother Elwing, and through Galadriel's mother Eärwen from Olwë of Alqualondë. She was not directly descended from Ingwë, but her fore-mother Indis was (in earlier texts) the sister of Ingwë (X.261-2, etc.), or (in the present work, p. 343) the daughter of his sister. It is hard to know what my father had in mind when he wrote the opening of this note.]

- emphasis mine


Again, while CT doesn't know what to make of the beginning of this note, he might not have been aware of the NoME texts at the time, in which Indis was depicted as the daughter of Ingwe in multiple instances.


However, I'm not sure about the dating of the note - given that it was (presumably?) attached to the rest of the 'Shibboleth' texts, one would think that it dates from around the same time (c. 1968/70)...yet, one thing that bugs me is the mention of the term Máyar (a term that, to the best of my knowledge, was only used by Tolkien in the c. 1957-60 period): but I'm not sure how that could be the case, given the context of the note.