Tol Eressea

[Arvegil145]

How much of the early, BoLT Eressea storyline do you think Tolkien would've kept in his later (c. 1940 onward) imagining of Aelfwine and his life? And how much, if any, could be salvaged for the purposes of this (Aelfwine-less) project?

Do you think that in the '50s Tolkien still meant for Aelfwine to marry an Elf? Was there still some sort of 'Cottage of Lost Play'-analogue in some way; was there still a queen of Eressea descended from Ingwe?

Was the vivid description of the BoLT Eressea what Tolkien still had in mind when he was writing the ending of the LOTR (i.e. Bilbo, Frodo and Sam)?

Obviously, no one really knows (at the moment at least), yet still...I ask because BoLT is really the only book that describes Eressea in detail (+ the texts in PE that are associated with it anyway).

Of course, in the earliest iterations of the BoLT, Eressea was England (or rather it became the British Isles) - however, I don't really see any obvious reason why, in Tolkien's mind, Eressea of the later legendarium wouldn't have similar description, especially since Tolkien was pretty quick to abandon the Eressea > Britain plot, replacing it with Elven refugees in Eressea copy/pasting their old home Luthany (an island remnant of 'Beleriand') which later became British Isles.

[Mithadan]

This is a question that cannot be answered with certainty. The was a discussion a few years ago in the Books forum that, at least, touched upon this, though the ultimate question was what did Tolkien decide regarding the source of the version of the Red Book that he ultimately "translated?" The thread was entitled Transmission Theory, and by no means am I suggesting that your question has already been discussed or should not be addressed here.

Certainly, Tol Eressea remained a component of his mythos until the end. Similarly, Pengolodh makes appearances late in Tolkien's philosophical musings. Aelfwine also appears in his writings at least as late as the 1950s. Some argue that Aelfwine (a favorite of mine) was no longer necessary after JRRT initially settled upon Bilbo/Frodo's Red Book as the source of his stories, and later questioned whether early mythology was from Numenor, explaining inconsistencies with science.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

This is a question that cannot be answered with certainty. The was a discussion a few years ago in the Books forum that, at least, touched upon this, though the ultimate question was what did Tolkien decide regarding the source of the version of the Red Book that he ultimately "translated?" The thread was entitled Transmission Theory, and by no means am I suggesting that your question has already been discussed or should not be addressed here.

Certainly, Tol Eressea remained a component of his mythos until the end. Similarly, Pengolodh makes appearances late in Tolkien's philosophical musings. Aelfwine also appears in his writings at least as late as the 1950s. Some argue that Aelfwine (a favorite of mine) was no longer necessary after JRRT initially settled upon Bilbo/Frodo's Red Book as the source of his stories, and later questioned whether early mythology was from Numenor, explaining inconsistencies with science.

Sorry if I wasn't all too clear in my OP, but my main concern was how much of the description of Eressea could be salvaged from the BoLT, in light of the fact that TNS doesn't include Aelfwine/Eriol framework.

I feel like, in the process of abandoning the Eriol framework, the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. The baby in this analogy being the only vivid, detailed description of Tol Eressea we ever got.

I'm not exactly sure how this could be accomplished, since Eriol is so deeply intertwined with the Eressea material, but I think it should at least be attempted - and if this could be done, my idea (which I mentioned before on this subforum) would be a sort of analogue to the A Description of the Island of Numenor (except with Eressea instead of Numenor) given as an appendix.

[Mithadan]

When I wrote Tales from Tol Eressea, now about 20 years ago, I did study BolT and JRRT's later works in an attempt to divine the island's geography. Unfortunately, all that is mentioned post-Bolt is the city and port of Avallone on the eastern side of the island and the Mindon in that city. While I included Tavrobel in my Tales, there is nothing after BoLT that mentions that town (with the possible exception of the Etymologies and the first Quenta, both dating back to the 1930s, and the poem from the 1920s). Nor is there any clear mention of any other places, such as the rivers I recall being mentioned, in Eressea post-Bolt.

I am working from memory so others may have more information.

[Arvegil145]

Originally Posted by Mithadan

When I wrote Tales from Tol Eressea, now about 20 years ago, I did study BolT and JRRT's later works in an attempt to divine the island's geography. Unfortunately, all that is mentioned post-Bolt is the city and port of Avallone on the eastern side of the island and the Mindon in that city. While I included Tavrobel in my Tales, there is nothing after BoLT that mentions that town (with the possible exception of the Etymologies and the first Quenta, both dating back to the 1930s, and the poem from the 1920s). Nor is there any clear mention of any other places, such as the rivers I recall being mentioned, in Eressea post-Bolt.

I am working from memory so others may have more information.

Tavrobel (or rather Tathrobel) is indirectly mentioned in the preamble (namely Ælfwine's note) to the Later Quenta (Morgoth's Ring, pp. 199-200) - mind you, it's not mentioned by name since CT states that the preamble is essentially the same as the one in the old QS found in The Lost Road (pp. 202-3).

Likewise, Cortirion appears at the end of the 1937 QS:

Here endeth The Silmarillion: which is drawn out in brief from those songs and histories which are yet sung and told by the fading Elves, and (more clearly and fully) by the vanished Elves that dwell now upon the Lonely Isle, Tol Eressëa, whither few mariners of Men have ever come, save once or twice in a long age when some man of Eärendel's race hath passed beyond the lands of mortal sight and seen the glimmer of the lamps upon the quays of Avallon, and smelt afar the undying flowers in the meads of Dorwinion. Of whom was Eriol one, that men named Ælfwine, and he alone returned and brought tidings of Cortirion to the Hither Lands.

- Lost Road, 'Quenta Silmarillion', 'Conclusion', §33, pp. 333-4

This paragraph also mentions the mysterious 'meads of Dorwinion' on Eressea, as well as the 'quays of Avallon' (which was another name for Eressea as a whole at the time - not to be confused with the city of Avallone).

Also, for what it's worth, in the War of the Jewels (pp. 243-7), we see a copy of the last 30 or so paragraphs of the 1937 QS that Tolkien made in the late '50s - or rather, CT simply lists the changes that Tolkien made to it, none of them involving the last paragraph. Not that that means Tolkien retained the idea of Cortirion or Dorwinion on Eressea post-LOTR - he might as well have simply overlooked the paragraph, or couldn't be bothered with it.


P.S. There's also the poem The Trees of Kortirion, a '60s revision of the much earlier Kortirion among the Trees - however, judging from its contents, it's clear that the later Kortirion is not the one on Eressea. For example, in the new version it was the Edain who built Kortirion and not the Elves.


I also recommend (a bit of shameless self promotion of sorts) the 'Tol Eressea' category on TG: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Cate...l_Eress%C3%ABa - it contains virtually every location on Eressea that I could find in HoME or PE.

[Findegil]

I have said it before and still stick to it: I am a combiner.
In my case that means, I view the legendarium a bit like the first Map to the Lord of the Rings: A 'picture' that Tolkien started at some time on a single sheet. Than he found that what he wanted to tell reached over the edges of that sheet and glude additional extensions to the first sheet. Later he found that he had got parts wrong and made corrections. Some slightly so that the original layer would just be altered to his new undertanding. Some more profoundly by glueing new paper onto the orginal sheet.

For questions like the one posted here, that means: as long as details from older texts are not altered or denied by a later text, I would assume they are valid as representing what Tolkien imagined. If you like you could exchange age of the texts in question by priority as defined in the rules of this project.

And I would argue that legendarium as we have it shows some hints that Tolkien saw it in a similar way: Once he had told a story in great detail he needed either some outer force (like the demand of his publisher e.g. rewritings of LotR) or some really great changes in the story to make him work it out completly (e.g. The later Tuor that pattered out when he reach the already very impressivly told Gondolin part, or the later Turin that concentrates on parts that where not covered by the Lay).

That said, I fear the incooperation of the describtion of Tol Eressea from the Eriol stuf of The Lost Tales is not an easy task under our rules. But if we can work it out it would be a worthy addition.

Resprctfully
Findegil