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#1 |
Stormdancer of Doom
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Some chap on FB posted that RoP is canon because it is approved by the Tolkien estate…
I responded “ Hmmm, I’ll have to disagree with you there. The Estate doesn’t produce canon. In my opinion JRR Tolkien and Christopher do and that’s it (all comments about “head-canon” aside). Some Loremasters even exclude Christopher and consider JRRT as the only Canon source. I don’t know any Loremasters that give the Tolkien Estate that authority.“ Discuss/calibrate me…? Am I flying too high-and-close to Arien with waxy wings? I think once the BD had a working definition of canon, what was it? Or did we have competing definitions?
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...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve. |
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#2 | |
Dead Serious
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Quote:
![]() Even ignoring for a moment whether we, the fans, accept RoP as canon (I'm going to go out on a limb and say "we don't"), where or when did the Estate say RoP was canon? It may at some point have said RoP was authorised (i.e. it was granted a license to adapt the work)--but, even then, I thought this was an inheritance of the Saul Zaentz rights, which the Estate doesn't even have access to or authority over. Imagine if it were canon! RoP is effectively throwing a black hole into the 2nd Age, sucking all events into the same human lifetime. Has Appendix B's timeline now ceased to be canon? What about the Prologue when it says Hobbits weren't literate pre-Shire? I suspect that your Facebook sighting may not have thought things through! But that doesn't mean we can't have a rigorous debate about it! Alas, but I no longer think it is as simple a matter as I once did, but I would in general say only CT had any sort of canonical authority outside of JRRT, and that his authority was limited to some judicial matters and was quite non-legislative. I suppose, in principle, if CT had picked a successor to be THE executor, I'd be willing to entertain the idea that the Estate, in the form of that person, had some canon-deciding authority, but CT's whole praxis became to lay out what his father had written, tangles and contradictions and all (and regretted where he'd made Decisions), so I think he effectively ended the possibility by divesting himself--and the Estate--of canonical powers.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#3 |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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Well, I will stick my wings out gingerishly to test the heat.
Only JRRT could produce what is called "canon". CT could not produce actual new canon himself. He could edit works of JRRT and publish that, to be seen for the first time by the public. But he could not himself write wholly new stories about the Legendarium that could be canon.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#4 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 364
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Everything Tolkien wrote is canon. Anything Tolkien did not write is not canon.
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Tar-Elenion Last edited by Tar Elenion; 09-12-2022 at 02:03 PM. |
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#5 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
Posts: 3,354
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I would temper Tar Elenion's position a bit. What Tolkien published during his lifetime and did not later correct in a subsequent or corrected edition is absolutely "canon." What Tolkien wrote but did not publish? Personally, for such materials canon is in the eye of the beholder. Everyone must agree that Tolkien's mythos encompassed tales from the First and Second Ages that were never finished. What ultimately became the 1977 Silmarillion is, at best, a version of what Tolkien wrote based upon Christopher's best guess at that time. The stories were in a constant state of flux up to the time that the author passed away. From those DRAFTS we can discern the contours of what Tolkien generally intended. But not the specifics. Beren and Luthien may have reached a point where it was maybe 65% final. The Hurin/Turin stories may have reached 85% completion or more. But they were never finalized. Names might have changed. Events may have changed. The basic threads of the stories may have been set, but are they "canon?" I don't know.
In my image of Middle Earth, the world was not round at its outset (that sounds really strange to say it), there were no Domes of Varda, Orcs are corrupted Elves not Men or beasts. Yet Tolkien "wrote" versions of his tales, or at least musings about them, that differ from my preferred views. Who is to say what is "canon?" Not I. Not Peter Jackson and not Jeff Bezos. RoP was "licensed" by the Estate. I will not bore you with anything resembling a formal legal definition of the word. To me, "licensed", as in you can use place names, characters, concepts to build your own story that you can publish as being "based upon...," is not the same as "canon." That being said, my own view of canon has shifted over the years. RoP is an interpretation, as others have suggested, a fan fiction of sorts. If you like it, watch it and enjoy. If you do not, don't watch it. I don't even mind if you want to watch it in order to point out where it deviates from your version of "canon" so long as you (not directed at anyone in particular) accept that others might disagree and choose to watch it (and discuss it) because they enjoy it and want to do so. Otherwise, I invite anyone who would like to do so to use our (semi-functional) search function and seek references to "canon." You will get voluminous results. EDIT: To be clear, feel free to discuss "canon" to your hearts' content. I do not mean to suggest that my post is the final word on the subject.
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#6 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,862
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I think there can be multiple canons! What is a canon? It's a self-consistent set of works, intended by the creator to fit together. I would usually add "complete enough to reasonably write fanfic of", because that's how I think.
So Tolkien published a set of books: LotR, Hobbit, Adventures of Tom Bombadil. That's a canon. Christopher added to that, with the Silm, UT, and maybe Children of Hurin. That's another canon, an extension of the first, and (aside from Galadriel and Celeborn) internally consistent. There's at least two versions of "the canon" which build off that: one which tries to reconstruct the absolute latest ideas Tolkien had, and one which tries to work in his latest ideas that fit the published Silm. Both are very individualised; no two people are going to agree on exactly what's in each. But there are other canons! The Book of Lost Tales is a nearly-complete, mostly-internally-consistent canon. The Lost Road presents a different canon for Numenor, with different timelines and characters, complete enough that you could easily write fanfic in it. And yes, there are the movie canons. The Jacksonverse, which may or may not include Rings of Power. The Rankin-Bass-verse, which may or may not include the Bakshi movie. Heck, the full script of the Boorman movie is available; that's a canon, too. From a fanfic perspective, and even from a discussion perspective, all you have to do is specify which canon you're thinking of. "This is a Movieverse fanfic, including Rings of Power." "In the Lost Road era, was Elendil an effective leader?" "If Gil-Galad is Fingon's son, why did Turgon become High King?" Just try not to cross your canons over without realising you're doing it: "I think the Stranger is Fionwe, son of Manwe!" The difficulty, of course, lies in those two individualised canons: the ones that ask what 'really happened'. For fanfic, you can cite the specific text - "I'm going with the version where Galadriel meets Celeborn in Aman". For discussions... well, that's why their discussions: you bring your preferred "canon" texts and make a case for why they're the most like what 'really happened'. You can forge agreement, but never a definitive answer. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 | |||
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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Quote:
Another Tolkien friend asked about Guy Favriel Kay's role in editing the Silm, having just learned about his role in helping edit the Silm. Quite a few other Tolkien fans were also surprised to hear of his work with CT. It hasn't been widely acknowledged and in the 1977 Foreward (repeated in the Second Edition), CT makes a concluding comment to thank Kay for his work. It isn't clear if this is simply academic courtesy or an acknowledgement that Kay played a significant part in helping with the edition. Kay himself is reluctant to speak in detail about it. He has said that he learned a great deal about narrative writing working on Tolkien Sr's drafts and manuscripts. And he has gone on to become a highy regarded fantasy writer himself, winning international awards and becoming a best seller with translations into several languages. As part of my searches about Kay's contribution, I came upon the fact that CT has acknowledged that chapter twenty two of the Quenta Silmarillion was in fact not an edited version of one of JRRT's texts but largely rewritten by CT himself. Quote:
The upshot of this of course influences what people might call canon. There are many online discussions asking how much of the Silm reflects CT's writing and even how much reflects Favriel Kay's work. Certainly I find the style in CT's edition of the Silm much different from JRRT's style in HoMe and the later editions of Tolkien Sr's work and for that reason I am not sure that we can say that the Silm is canon, if by canon we mean, as Tar Elenion says, Quote:
A review of Ferré's article can be found in the respected Journal of Tolkien Research https://scholar.valpo.edu/journaloft.../vol14/iss2/8/, which faults Ferré's omission. So was CT the first fanfiction writer? He was certainly a fan.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#8 | |
Dead Serious
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At the risk of being a pedant...
![]() I do sort of want to define what "canon" even means. According to Wiktionary.org (not cited so much because it's authoritative as because it's easy): Quote:
![]() All of these largely go back to the idea of a list: the canons of ecclesiastical councils, which codified things such as the rules of the Church (i.e. canon law) and the list of what books are definitely in the Bible (i.e. the Canon of Scripture), and it's derivative of this original source that we get Wiktionary's 11th definition--the one that I think is normally what we mean around here: "Those sources, especially including literary works, which are considered part of the main continuity regarding a given fictional universe." Except, at least some of the time, and even on this forum, I think we've historically taken it even one step further than that: "Those events, especially those described in literary works, which 'actually' happened in the history of a given fictional universe." And... well, there's a reason I put 'actually' in quotes: we're getting pretty close to full circle back to the Canon of Scripture and the Divinely Inspired Word of God if we're arguing over what "really" happened--even if, at times, I think that's what we've done. I might only be speaking (sorry: writing) for myself, so the revelation as I've gotten older that it's a bit nonsense to speak of what really happened in a fictional world may be very old news indeed to those who've always know this. But--actually kind of going back to Tolkien as the Divine Author again--the canon was always in flux as long as Tolkien was writing it, and he could and did rewrite it at will, including the published works! So, to answer the "canon" question, I find I have several answers: What is the "Canon of Scripture": i.e. what are the "divinely inspired" works of Tolkien. The Hobbit, LotR, Adventures of Tom Bombadil. Anything else is like the Apocrypha or Patristic fathers: i.e. it's of great value but it's not Authoritative. Basically, I think if Tolkien didn't publish it, it doesn't have authority in the same way. What is the "Western Canon": i.e. what list of Tolkien books should/must every Tolkien fan read? The Hobbit, LotR, the Silm, Unfinished Tales, the Book of Lost Tales 1&2, Adventures of Tom Bom, Farmer Giles, Smith of Wootton Major. At some point you have to draw the line... that's what I think the "essentials" are. What "Actually Happened" in Middle-earth: i.e. how do I read the many works of Tolkien to decide what I, as a "historian," think actually happened? I accept every Middle-earth thing Tolkien wrote, but where things contradict, I will always default to the published text, and to the LotR 2nd Edition above all. Where details conflict but none are in a published work, I will prefer the details contained in what work is most in agreement with the published text, then the work that is most complete, then the work that is latest in time of composition. Is the above answer "my canon"?: No.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#9 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
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But it's not contradicted by anything, either. RotK has Sam being very shy about mentioning his possible wedding to Frodo The line "as I hadn't spoken, she couldn't say so" hints at the secrecy from the first draft, and the way Sam and Rosie arrange the marriage between themselves certainly implies there's no 'seek permission from her father' business going on, which matches the 'curious habit'. So... in people's view of the "what actually happened" canon, is this what Hobbit weddings are like? And if not... why not? hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#10 | |||
Shade of Carn Dűm
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 364
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"‘How do ye of uncouth race dare to demand aught of me, Elu Thingol, Lord of Beleriand, whose life began by the waters of Cuiviénen years uncounted ere the fathers of the stunted people awoke?’" Quote:
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Tar-Elenion |
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#11 | |
Dead Serious
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I'm personally inclined to drop the habit from my view of "what actually happened," and as far as that teases out a principle, it might be that anything edited OUT of a published text has less standing than anything that's actually in it: unlike some hastily penciled or forgotten notes on a crumpled napkin, there is plain evidence (albeit not fully determinative evidence) that Tolkien dropped the idea. But I'll also readily admit that this is as much grounded in preference as in anything I can specifically cite as principle: it just doesn't feel congruent to me with final draft hobbit culture. Tolkien's world feels just so and this feels just a bit off to me--almost like a second version of the backwards birthday presents. And hobbit culture doesn't feel like it should just be "normal 19th century British things backwards." It's a good test case, though--and you might have hit upon a good formula for posting threads post-RoP: just find outrageous things cut from the LotR drafts and post them here with "is this still workable?" headers.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#12 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,311
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One takeaway is that Kay was not yet an author- he was a 19-year old college student studying law. CT needed, basically, a gopher- somebody to make photocopies and fetch coffee. Since Kay's parents were friends of Baillie Tolkien's parents back in Winnipeg, his name came up and he got the gig. The other takeaway is that Kay's role grew; CT started using him as a sounding board, and eventually as a first-pass "assembler" of JRRT passages (The "constructed" Silm is a bit like multiple decks of cards shuffled together)- and then CT would write the final text. So GK had a fair bit of input into the final product, and CT later did say that his "discussions" with Kay underlay the Doriath chapter.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#13 | |
Cryptic Aura
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 5,990
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I've been told that Charles Noad in Amon Hen 91 reports on a talk given by Kay, where Kay explained what his role was on the Silm but I wasn't told where Kay gave the talk. Perhaps this is the one you were thinking of from Mythcon? I don't have access to AH. I've also been told that it was Kay's influence to produce the Silm as a continuous narrative rather than an academic text with footnotes. So because of Kay we have both the Silm and HoMe?
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. |
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#14 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,311
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As to the former, it is specifically "A Tower in Beleriand, a talk by Guy Gavriel Kay", published in Amon Hen 91 (1988)
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#15 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 1,033
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For me, Tolkien-published* text is canon.
And as the posthumously published stuff seems to raise the very question, again for me, that seems an easy division. Were we ever supposed to see any of these texts in the forms that we find them today? Even those texts that seem finished don't have that final stamp of author-approved . . . Quote:
__________ * Also, any "Hobbit-holdouts" (there appear to be some who do not hold any edition of The Hobbit as canon) will have to deal with Tolkien's own statements about even the first edition Hobbit being an internal work -- statements made in the canon itself (here The Lord of the Rings). |
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#16 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,862
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Quote:
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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