Linguistic puns, riddles, and jokes in LotR, etc.

[Alfirin]

NOW I remember where I heard the name Sackville-Bagg, it, was when I was a kid. When I was a (very young) child I read a group of books about a boy whome made friends with a family of vampires (I look it up it was the My friend, the Vampire series by Angela Sommer-Brondberg) Sackville-Bagg was the Vampire family's surname. It's just one of those hypenated names that always seems to pop up like Neville-Smythe or Donnel-Smith

on distillation another thought occurs. In our world, while distillation was largely unkown in Europe in the Middle Ages, I was well known in the Arab world, hence the world alcohol (it derives from the same word as "khol" (the eye makeup) since that was the first thing made using a refining process simar to distallation and al-khol came into parlance as a word to describe sothing that had been refined to its purest form (hence al-khol of wine). So in ME, maybe distillation is known by the men of Near Harad.

I'm sure someone said this earlier but given who her husband is theres a chuckle in the fact that (for most people) the first thing they think of when the hear the name "belladonna" is the plant (deadly nightshade) not the words "beautiful woman" (though as you point out that is the literal transation. Also isn't mirabella a kind of plum (or is that mirabelle) wonder what color her compexion was? come to think of it when I head the word "bradywine" my first thought is of a large pink fleshed type of tomato.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

The names of Gerontius Took's "three remarkable daughters" are all Italian. As mentioned earlier, Belladonna means "beautiful woman", Donnamira means "Remarkable woman" and Mirabella means "Remarkably beautiful". It's interesting that Bilbo's mother is the only one of the three sisters not to have a "remarkable" name.

I find it interesting that the three Took sisters have three names compounded of only three different parts: Bella, Donna, and Mira. Each sister shares a part of her name with each of the others; only the compound is unique. I'm not sure how that fact is significant, but it fascinates me. Apparently they were all remarkably beautiful females!

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

I find it interesting that the three Took sisters have three names compounded of only three different parts: Bella, Donna, and Mira. Each sister shares a part of her name with each of the others; only the compound is unique. I'm not sure how that fact is significant, but it fascinates me. Apparently they were all remarkably beautiful females!

Since we know practically nothing about the characters, I don't think we'll ever know if and how that's significant. I suspect that the similarity of the names was deliberate, and that they were chosen for their pleasant effect when spoken - meaning being a minor consideration in Hobbit naming convention. Tolkien may have borrowed an idea from Anglo-Saxon naming convention, in which names were chosen in part because they alliterated with other names borne by members of the same family (usually fathers, grandfathers, etc.), making them easy to fit into poems recording important peoples' ancestors and easy to remember when the poems were recited. Although these names don't alliterate in the modern sense, they are memorable because of their shared components.

Belladonna and Mirabella are both botanical names, the former for Deadly Nightshade as Guinevere pointed out, the latter for the Mirabelle plum (Tolkien preferred Italian to French, so it's not surprising that he'd use an Italian form). Donnamira is the odd one out, since it doesn't refer to any common plant species.

I must admit to a mistake above: mira tends to mean 'wondrous' or 'marvellous' more than 'remarkable' (Lat. mira, mirus). Although that might mean that the sisters were all beautiful, knowing Tolkien's sense of humour they could just as easily have been extremely plain.

[Ibrîniðilpathânezel]

In botanical taxonomy, Mirabella is also associated with a cactus and a member of the four o'clock family. So perhaps one might look at these names as meaning Belladonna had a rather poisonous personality, and Mirabella was either prickly or lazy, inclined to bestir herself only rather late in the day. As Tolkien says that Hobbits were fond of flower names for girls, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he occasionally had such things in mind.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by akhtene

Just found this in a dictionary.
A road closed at one end is called French fashion cul-de-sac which means the bottom of the sack. Or Bag-End , doesn't it?

Here's a phrase I love very much (Sam remembers the Gaffer's saying) "Whenever you open your big mouth you put your foot in it" , that is speak without thinking first. Just try visualising it [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

cul also means fesse, as in buttocks, which would mean a kind of 'bum's rush' if Tolkien were given to making jokes at French expense.

Originally Posted by Ibrîniðilpathânezel

So perhaps one might look at these names as meaning Belladonna had a rather poisonous personality, and Mirabella was either prickly or lazy, inclined to bestir herself only rather late in the day. As Tolkien says that Hobbits were fond of flower names for girls, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he occasionally had such things in mind

Many of these jokes and puns we are finding seem to be expended on hobbit and Shire names. Is this linguistic funny bone also handed to elven, Rohirrim or Gondorian names? Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Or is this one of Tolkien's ways of suggesting that the hobbits are indeed the smallest?

Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

[The Squatter of Amon Rûdh]

Tolkien's jokes in Rohan and Gondor are few and far between. It seems that he restricted his humorous asides to the Shire. I shan't belabour the well-known meanings of many Rohirric names in Old English, but it might be worth mentioning them again: Theoden, Goldwine, Thengel and Walda are all more or less poetic words for 'king', 'lord' or 'ruler' (gold-wine = 'gold-friend'). Eorl is much the same as Norse Jarl (the English word only gained its current meaning during Norse rule in England) and means 'lord' (modern English earl); Fengel means 'prince'. Aldor can mean 'age', but also 'chief', so is doubly applicable, and Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'. The Mark itself has a name that is just a modernisation of OE mærc (mod. Eng. march, 'border land'), and which is probably better known in its Latinate form Mercia.

Other Rohirric names contain horse elements, hence Éowyn, 'horse-joy' (OE eoh, 'war-horse, charger', wyn, 'joy, glory'; Éomer, 'horse-famous' (OE mære, 'great, excellent, distinguished, famous, sublime, etc.') There aren't really any jokes there except for the fact that for most of the Lords of the Mark, the style "[name] King" is a tautology. As for Gondor, since its names are either Sindarin or Adûnaic I'll defer to others who know more about Tolkien's own languages.

So what does this mean? Personally I think that in the Shire and there alone Tolkien felt free to make jokes at the expense of the English. Like the hobbits, we are sitting on thousands of years of history that is still present in the language and more so in names; and like the hobbits, most of us are completely unaware of it. How many people called Alfred really know that their names mean 'Elven-counsel'? How many people called Septimus are seventh sons? Our place-names often reveal layers of ignorance covering a thousand years, so that we have names like Bredon on the Hill ('hill-hill on the hill'), the Bree-land Chetwood ('wood-wood'), and the several rivers in England called River Avon (Welsh afon, 'river'). The Hobbits are out of touch with their past, but their past is still there for those with eyes to see and with a power to affect the present. In Gondor and the Mark, still more so in the realms of the Elves, the inhabitants are more aware of their history, which makes this sort of humour a little more difficult to apply.

[EDIT] cross-posted with Underhill.

[skip spence]

Originally Posted by The Squatter of Amon Rûdh

Gamling contains the element gamol (old age), so probably means 'old man'.

In modern Swedish and Norwegian gammal means 'old' and the Danes also use a very similar word. Furthermore, gamling is in Swedish a widely used word for 'old person', more often than not used on men, so for us Swedes Gamling is basically an old man whose name is 'old man'.

[Alfirin]

"gamling" also always reminded me of "gamy" in the British colloquial sense of injured or lame (when referring to a limb) which also fits with the "old and doddering man" image

You referece to Septimus was interesting as I reminded of a musing I once had. Given the general tendecy (at least in European and or western cultures) toward smaller familes I wonder how many people are walking around with the given names Septimus, Octavian (or Octavia) and Decimus (I'm sure there is some name for "nine" but I've just never heard of someone named with it (it would be someting like Nonian or Nonius, right) for whom it is actually accurate. For that matter (in a magic/power sense) how many seventh sons of seventh sons are their still?

[Guinevere]

I always wondered why the Mirkwood spiders were so enraged by Bilbo calling them "Attercop", since I know that "edderkopp" in Norwegian means simply spider.

Here's what I found in the internet:

At´ter`cop
n. 1. A spider.
2. A peevish, ill-natured person.

source: Thefreedictionary.com


attercop
"spider," O.E. attorcoppa, lit. "poison-head," from ator
"poison,"
from P.Gmc. *aitra- "poisonous ulcer" (cf. O.N. eitr, Ger. eiter) +
cop "top, summit, round head," probably also "spider". (cf cobweb)

source: Online Etymology Dictionary

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

I always wondered why the Mirkwood spiders were so enraged by Bilbo calling them "Attercop", since I know that "edderkopp" in Norwegian means simply spider.

Here's what I found in the internet:

Hmmm...perhaps it's like calling a woman a 'broad'. Both are synonymous in the strictest sense, but I know of no woman who prefers to be called one.

I am at work, but I know there is a discussion regarding the term Attercop in The Annotated Hobbit. If no one has access to it, I'll look it up when I get home.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mister Underhill

Smallest? Puns and jokes being "low", eh? Hmm...

Could this be a clue to the nature of hobbit resiliency? Whereas Men and Elves are always falling into despair over this that or the other, hobbits are able to endure even the grimmest of situations by injecting a little humor into them.

Hobbits also seem to lack a strong sense of authority or organisation. The Shire is said to be, after all, a sort of self-governing ideal. Comedy seems more likely among those who don't revere authority. Perhaps it is that Rohan and Gondor take themselves too seriously to admit of any undercutting of their authority.

Or that Tolkien's sense of humour could not be directed to such cultures.

[Morthoron]

I had forgotten to look up the mentions of Attercop and the other insults Bilbo throws at the spiders in The Annotated Hobbit, so here goes:

Attercop is from the Middle English atter-cop(pe), itself from Old English at(t)or-coppa, "spider" -- it means, literally, "poison head."

The Oxford English Dictionary defines Tomnoddy as "a foolish or stupid person."

Both Lob and Cob are words for "spider." Lob comes from the Middle-English loppe, lop(p), lob (Old English loppe, lobbe). Cob is rare as a separate word and is probably taken from cobweb (Middle-English coppe-web). In the Princess and the Goblin, however, George MacDonald used cob as a word for goblin.

The Annotated Hobbit is a treasure-trove (literally) of linguistic puns. Here is one regarding the name 'Gollum':

Constance B. Hieatt has noted that "Old Norse gull/goll, of which one inflected form would be gollum, means 'gold, treasure, something precious' and can also mean 'ring,' a point which may have occurred to Tolkien.

and another referring to the "An eye in a blue face" riddle in the 'Riddles in the Dark' chapter:

This riddle cleverly expresses the etymology of the word daisy in riddle form. The flower name comes from the Anglo-Saxon dæges eage ("day's eye"), which alludes to the flower's petals opening in the morning (revealing the yellow center) and closing in the evening. Hence it is the "eye of day" or "day's eye" -- the modern daisy.

[Guinevere]

Thank you, Morthoron, that was indeed interesting!

[Thinlómien]

Those who like this thread might also find this one

Words and Names in Tolkien's Work

interesting. It's shorter than this thread, and maybe a bit more serious, but there are some interesting things.

[Beoben]

Hi. Do you have the full text of "'This house deplores the occurrence of the Norman Conquest..." I read it in a Tolkien biography years ago and now need it for a paper I'm writing. Your help would be much appreciated. Thanks!