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#1 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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So, in his 1958 cursory revision of the Quenta, Tolkien somewhat changed its conclusion, that is, the Second Prophecy of Mandos. (p. 247 of The War of the Jewels)
Some of the changes are: 1) in the revised version, Turin doesn't return from the Halls of Mandos, but from the Doom of Men (from beyond the Circles of the World, from outside of Ea in other words) 2) in the previous version, it was Yavanna who broke the Silmarils and rekindled the Two Trees - in this one, it is Feanor himself who breaks them 3) Tolkien rejected the last two sentences, which go like this: In that light the Gods will grow young again, and the Elves awake and all their dead arise, and the purpose of Ilúvatar be fulfilled concerning them. But of Men in that day the prophecy of Mandos doth not speak, and no Man it names, save Túrin only, and to him a place is given among the sons of the Valar. 4) and the final change, or rather an addition, which inspired me to make this thread since I couldn't find any discussion about it online: Beren returns at the end of time! I guess the purpose of this post is to find out what others might think of this, frankly quite weird addition. Personally, after spending way too much time thinking about this, my headcanon is that, at that time in Tolkien's life, while Turin was there at the end of the world in order to kill Morgoth (with Gurthang, 'Iron of Death'), Beren might have been intended to vanquish Sauron (maybe with Dagmor, 'Slayer of Darkness', his sword?). (Well, never mind the fact that I don't know of any text that places Sauron at Dagor Dagorath, even though I think it is not completely unreasonable to assume this). From what I gathered from the many different versions of the end times, it seems that in every one of them Morgoth is vanquished permanently (as in wiped from the face of...well...everything - that is, his very spirit and essence seem to be annihilated). This led me to believe that Sauron, the next in line to Morgoth, so to speak, might suffer the same fate, perhaps by none other than Beren Camlost (who is also thematically tied to Sauron in many, many ways). So, what do you folks think?
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#2 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Oh wow!
So I've started out by taking the Second Prophecy from HoME V.333 and making the amends Christopher lists in XI.246-7. The latest Second Prophecy, including Tolkien's added sub-heading, looks like this: Quote:
What immediately jumps out is that the only hint of a full-scale battle is that it is "gathered on the fields of Valinor". The only enemy combatant named is Morgoth: he breaks through the Door of Night, destroys the Sun and Moon, is forced down into Valinor, and fights Tulkas, Eonwe, Turin, and Beren. Are there armies of orcs and elves involved, with captains and hosts and all that jazz? Tolkien doesn't say, and it's actually hard to imagine how the orcs could get to Valinor in the first place. In any case, Beren is specifically said to be facing Morgoth. Perhaps the "battle" is simple a clash between the two great Powers: Tulkas, who has spent the life of Arda preparing for this battle, and Morgoth, who has spent it nurturing his rage. I can imagine Eonwe's only task is to try and contain the battle, so that all of Valinor isn't destroyed outright (though quite possibly devastated, given that immediately afterwards 'the Earth shall be broken and remade'). That makes Turin and Beren the Little People - small, unnoticed actors who can nevertheless change the course of the battle. Because Tolkien's great victories don't usually come through standing on a battlefield in single combat. Beren retrieved the Silmaril while Morgoth slept; Turin hid and struck Glaurung from below; Merry stabbed the Witch-King in the back so Eowyn could take him out; and of course the whole War of the Ring was a vast diversion to keep Sauron from noticing Frodo and Sam pushing his self-destruct button. Would the Final Battle be any different? I mean, heck, Beren Camlost would never be seen on a battlefield if he could possibly be unseen instead. I feel like the most canonical thing for Beren and Turin to do would be: a) argue, b) wait until Morgoth is entirely distracted by his imminent victory over Tulkas, and then c) have Beren stab him in his wounded foot so that he leans down and Turin can get in there with Gurthang. (Or they could chase him up a tree, which is always my favourite version of the story.) Actually, that thread is the one where I collected all the Dagor Dagorath sources I could find; I'll probably go back and add in this one, because I never spotted that Tolkien had edited it before! It includes what I suspect is the last Dagorath text from HoME XII "The Problem of Ros": Quote:
hS
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#3 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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Whoa, what a thread!
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But of course the concept of Dagor Dagorath itself is in this sense very un-Tolkien-y: it is hard to imagine anyone pulling some Frodo trick in the middle of a battle that is literally meant to be a battle and nothing else (note the word root "dagor" repeating twice). The equivalent being... hm hmm... well, "pulling a Frodo trick" would mean destroying the Ring while the Enemy is otherwise occupied, ergo... ergo while Tulkas distracts Melkor, Beren - who after all was apt at stealing Simarils from under others' noses - destroys Morgoth's 'Ring'! Oh wait... Morgoth's Ring... where have I heard that... ![]() Okay, seems like I inadverently devised an unexpected twist version of Dagor Dagorath, where somehow, while the supernatural powers are concerned with their massive battle of cosmic proportions, the humble Men, the humble Children of Eru, represented specifically by Beren, steal and destroy Arda, thus bringing about the victory of the 'good guys'. You're welcome. (Yeah, this is my self that relishes in absurd drama and dadaism speaking here: I have no idea how this would actually come to be, but I just accept the notion that it would. The rest are details.) Quote:
But yes, if we go with the full-scale battle, then Wolf Sauron would make a lot of sense. Even though I somehow feel that if we take the analogy, then we should take into account that Túrin is not fighting the same Glaurung, but he is fighting Ancalagon. So following the same logic, Beren should not be fighting Sauron either. What is Ancalagon? Some sort of Glaurung's offspring, a "follow-up", powerful, more mobile though not as old. I don't think we can find a perfect analogy, but one of the first obvious thoughts is the Witch-King. This would have several advantages: 1) We'd have a "named" representative of the evil Men on the side, so we get the "mortal" side of the battle. If Men are so instrumental to this climactic event, or to the fate of the universe as it is continuously hinted at in various places, it would be only "fair" to underline this by having some of them also on the other side. (I am not doubting that there would not be some horde of evil Men, if we are thinking the massive-scale battle, but it would add something to it if we had a "named" - yet-not-really-named, which I, sidenote, sorta personally like for the notion that evil does not get to be remembered - representative.) 2) It would in a lovely manner underline the ominous line in LotR where, after Witch-King gets chopped down by Éowyn, it says "...a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world." (emphasis mine) Now we'd know that this refers to Dagor Dagorath, and we'd know exactly where! 3) Purely cosmetic addendum, since I mentioned the differences between Túrin's original and later foes, Glaurung and Ancalagon, as Ancalagon being the "more mobile", now I can imagine WK riding on some Fell Beast into the final battle and also being "mobile". Not necessary, but why not.
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#4 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
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Why Tolkien did that, meaning shifting Turin's fate from killing Morgoth at the end of time to Turin killing Ancalagon in the War of Wrath, is anybody's guess IMO. One thing to keep in mind though, is that the prophecy is made by Andreth, a mortal woman of the Edain (as opposed to Mandos), in this conception of the legendarium - and it may well have been the case that Tolkien, when he decided that the histories of the Elder Days were Mannish in origin and that the Elves had no predictions of their own regarding the ending of the world, simply intended Andreth's prophecy to have been one among many others.
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#5 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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1/ Andreth died just after the Bragollach, about a decade before Turin was even born. The "one prophecy among any others" explanation would have to assume that she correctly foresaw the birth of Turin and Morgoth's emnity with him, and the creation of Ancalagon - but then added a false prophecy on the end about him coming back 50 years after his death. 2/ The context in which "the language of the Folk of Haleth was not used", and wouldn't be unless Turin returned from the Dead, is Earendil's appeal to the Valar. There isn't a lot of time between those two events; and "Problem of Ros" namechecks Numenor, which means if it has an internal existence at all (which the ambiguity in the prophecy suggests), it must be a Numenorean or Gondorian text writing after the War of Wrath. It seems more plausible that between footnote and text, Tolkien used two different meanings of Last Battle, than that he suddenly decided to resurrect Turin for the War of Wrath and simultaneously overturn Earendil's longstanding killing of Ancalagon. If it is a reference to the War of Wrath, then for the Dagorath we're back where we started: there's no references to a battle later than the Lost Tales, just to a four-on-one duel with Morgoth. hS
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#6 | |||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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My "in story" (tentative) theory: the Numenorean Myth (the former Second Prophecy) is a garbling, in part, of Andreth's Prophecy, altering her (in my opinion) more-likely-to-be-true prophetic inspiration into a next stage bit of myth-making . . . . . . in other words, the tale grew in the telling: the "Last Battle" of Andreth's Prophecy is ultimately confused for an end-of-times "Last Battle" myth, in which Turin the famous dragon slayer goes from giving Ancalagon his death stroke (prophecy) -- to delivering Morgoth his death stroke. Or not. If that doesn't work? |
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#7 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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I mean... no? But if Turin actually returned for the War of Wrath, the total absence of this concept anywhere else in the Legendarium, the contradiction with the statements that Beren was the only mortal to return from death, and the fact that he would have waited in the Halls of Mandos for 50+ years rather than moving on, all make it difficult to accept at face value. It also takes a mythic Returning Hero and turns him into a historically-verifiable event: Bilbo could ask Elrond about it and be told, "Oh yeah, Turin came back for a bit; I chatted with him, he was intense." It just doesn't feel like it fits.
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![]() Well, "The Problem of Ros" mentions Numenor. That means the document as a whole must post-date the War of Wrath, and so any prophecy relating to it would have to be in the past tense ("unless the prophecy of Andreth was true, and Turin in the War of Wrath returned, and slew Ancalagon"). They would also know whether it happened. ![]() Even if the "Turin" footnote is held to be earlier than other parts of the document - when earlier? It relays details of what Earendil said to Manwe, which means someone must have passed on to the recorder; that means it has to have been written between the arrival of the Armies of Valinor and the death of Ancalagon. I just have a hard time believing a continent-destroying war is a good time to jot down notes on what that Elros bloke's name means, oh and btw watch out for a grumpy guy with an evil sword, he's got an appointment with a dragon and you do NOT wanna get in his way. Could Andreth have prophesies about the War of Wrath? Sure. Finrod in her presence speaks prophetically of both the Bragollach and Arda Renewed, so we know that both timeframes were available to foresight. But I don't think this source text can be held up as supporting such a prophecy. hS
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#8 | ||
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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My edited version of Quenta Silmarillion concerning the War of Wrath: " . . . that the host of the Valar was driven back, for the coming of the dragons was with great thunder, and lightning, and a tempest of fire" "But Earendil came, shining with white flame, and about Vingilot were gathered all the great birds of heaven and Thorondor was their captain, and there was battle all day and through a dark night of doubt. And before the rising of the sun, the host of the Valar prevailed, and well-nigh all the dragons were destroyed, even Ancalagon the Black, the mightiest of the dragon-host. And the towers of Thangorodrim lay in ruin; and all the pits of Morgoth were broken and unroofed . . ." In short, it is never said who slew Ancalagon. No one knew exactly what happened to every single dragon slain, especially after night fell. But in another section of the Legendarium, even perhaps in a footnote to some text about languages and names, the reader finds a prophecy about Turin! Did it happen? It seems unlikely that a prophecy should not come true, yet it can never be certainly determined, until perhaps the End -- in other words, if the prophecy "should prove true" -- not only after uttered, but also when this could ultimately be revealed as certain by the "gods" or Eru himself, then we would know that the language of Haleth's folk could indeed have been heard again. Quote:
For me though, so far anyway, The Problem of ROS is essentially an external text. It begins with Tolkien-as-author writing about the problems he perceives, even with respect to Primary World words. Then he goes into: "Proposed solution. Associate the name Elros . . ." And what follows is still, I think, more like Tolkien "talking to himself" [even if arguably slipping, now and again, into "poetic prose" mode], working out the details that could exist within the Secondary World, in part, to allow the scenario to be true. I agree that the statement -- if the prophecy "should prove true" -- gives the air of an in-story note, but given the text as a whole, for myself (again, so far), I can't press it as a fully considered internal source. I think if the scenario had not failed, the text [if indeed such a text was to be the vehicle for any and all new history arrived at during the proposed solution] awaited a more considered in-story treatment with respect to purpose and authorship. Admittedly this post may be less than compelling (to put it mildly) since it contains mere theory concerning how I think Tolkien might have "intended" to incorporate such an idea, but I do find it "Tolkien-ish" . . . . . . as subjective as that is ![]() And then, as I further wonder, does Andreth's prophecy provide the Numenoreans a groundwork for the End Times Myth in which Turin goes from dragon slayer to dealing Morgoth himself a death blow. Last edited by Galin; 09-27-2022 at 12:30 PM. |
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#9 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Actually, now that I think more about it . . .
. . . I suppose I could look at the Problem of ROS text as starting off external, but once Tolkien goes into solution mode, we are in in-story territory. If I look at things that way, I'll have to think even more about the matter, which makes me sleepy in any case! ![]() |
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A Voice That Gainsayeth
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(I personally like to operate in that framework, but this is only chiming in - if you are the type of seekers that want hard facts and definite solutions, obviously not stopping you. It only occurred to me to offer this alternative point for those who may like it, and in general to remind of that aspect of Tolkien's mythological writing.)
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#11 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I really don't want to sound rude or anything, but can we get back to the original topic?
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#12 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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![]() One obvious place is the Athrabeth. The main text of Finrod's talk with Andreth seems to post-date the Quenta revisions, so does the lady herself have anything to say about her prophecies? Well... possibly. Finrod certainly touches on the same area. He talks of his vision, of Men as "deliverers" of the Eldar. Then, when Andreth brings up the Old Hope, he says that surely the only power that can destroy Melkor is Eru Himself. It almost seems like Andreth's vision is an answer to Finrod's philosophy - perhaps Men could defeat Melkor themselves, and not need the Old Hope which she rejects. It also occurs to me that all of the Men named in the prophecy - Turin, Beren, and Earendil - are her own close kin: they're all descended from her brother Bregor. Maybe rather than a grand prophecy - "the wrath of the Morgoth shall be upon the earth, yet the One-Handed shall return at that hour" - we should be thinking something closer to Huor's death-vision: "from you and from me a new star will arise." In fact, could it literally be Andreth's death-vision? The Athrabeth notably doesn't say she had the gift of foresight, talking instead of learning and wisdom; but she survived the Bragollach, into the time when Dorthonion was under attack from Sauron. That means she knew Beren, Morwen, and Rian; and perhaps on her deathbed she called them to her and said something like: "The world is dark now, and I hear the ring of swords in my ears. But in you children I see the Light, and the Sword that will drive the dark to its end; and when the Nameless is at last defeated utterly, though it take many ages of the World, I know that it will be your hand that brings him low, your sword that strikes the final blow, your light that shows all the world his fall." Hand -- sword -- light works well for Beren -- Turin -- Earendil, and fits neatly into the "new star will arise" idiom of mortal prophecy. hS
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#13 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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So, I've recently found a passage from The Children of Hurin which somehow went under my radar all this time.
It isn't really pertinent to the main topic of this thread per se, but I think it's fascinating nonetheless, and I don't really know where else to post it. This passage (possibly) pertains to the idea of Turin coming back from...somewhere...and (maybe) inflicting the killing blow to Morgoth: Quote:
This passage was brought to light to me by the user 'Mitchboy1995' on the r/TolkienFans (https://old.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans..._the_children/ ). When do you think this passage was written? If I had to guess, sometime in the mid-to-late 1950's, alongside the majority of the CoH. Regardless, what is everyone's impression of this passage?
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#14 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Of course, it could be much nearer term and refer simply to the killing of Glaurung, depriving Morgoth of one of his top three servants
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#15 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Could 'some far day' indicate the time no more than a decade later when Turin would kill Glaurung? Finduilas is an Elf of Valinor, already well over 500 years old at this point. My instinct is that when she talks about "a far day" in "the tale [or Song] of the World", she means just that: the far, far future. She also says Turin's stature shall 'reach yet to Morgoth', which to me means he will be as important in the Music as the Dark Lord. Killing a dragon doesn't really manage that. If this is about the Last Battle, then it would come from before the amendments to the Second Prophecy in 1958, and the addition of Beren to the party that take on Morgoth. So like you say, it doesn't really touch on the main topic of the thread. I wonder, though, whether Finduilas is actually prophecying herself here - or if she's quoting someone. She is a bit of a follower, and if we look at the Legendarium as a whole, she could easily be quoting Finrod, who would in turn be quoting Andreth the Wise. hS
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#16 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I am pretty much in total agreement with you (Huinesoron, that is) when I say that my hunch is that Finduilas is refering to some far, far more removed event than the slaying of Glaurung by Turin c. 10 years after that conversation.
After all, what is a "far day to come" to an Elf? I'd say, definitely not 10 years or so in the future, especially with Finduilas referencing the "tale of the World" with a capital 'W'. Quote:
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#17 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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![]() hS
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