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#1 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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Pro Morgoth version of the Dagor Dagorath
Forgive me, I know this is somewhat obscure.
But I've read somewhere about four versions of the Dagor Dagorath. One of them being a pro Morgoth version, with a chant by orcs. It has something about Manwe and varda perishing underneath the sinking sea. Basically Morgoth victorious and the hope of his followers for that. Can anyone give me a source on this? |
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#2 | ||||||||||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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Ooh, I like this question.
I mean, I think you're wrong. Tolkien was never very fond of 'enemy POV' in his stories - the most we get is lines like 'Orcs would after laughing tell' in the Lay of Leithian - and having a Morgothite version of his ultimate redemption story seems way out of character. (Is it possible that you're thinking of the four versions of the Fall of Numenor found in HoME 9?) But what if you're right? It's time for a Dagorath hunt! Tolkien Gateway gives two references for its Dagor Dagorath article. One goes to Unfinished Tales: The Istari, and points to these passages: Quote:
The second reference is to HoME 10: Valaquenta, but seems to be just referencing the point where the Second Prophecy of Mandos disappeared. Let's dig deeper. TG points (not as a reference) to HoME 1: The Hiding of Valinor, where we read probably the earliest version of the End of Days: Quote:
It's worth noting that the Book of Lost Tales accounts are deeply weird. You think you know the fate of Men after death? Nah, think again: Quote:
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'End of Days' is another useful phrase, and points to this in Silm: Ainulindale: Quote:
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It's probably about time to give the text of the Second Prophecy of Mandos itself, the source text for the Dagor Dagorath. This comes from HoME 5: Quote:
Quote:
Maybe we should move onto something a little clearer: The Fellowship of the Ring. Back to back on the Barrow Downs, we get a pair of apocalyptic references in poems: Quote:
Quote:
![]() The Wight's quote is the closest we come to a Melkorite Dagorath: the sun fails, the moon dies, the stars die, the sea is dead and the land is withered. The only problem is that there's no indication it's a prophecy: it could well just be a threat. Bombadil has the same issue in the opposite direction. He seems to be saying that the Gates (to the Void?) will remain closed until after the world is renewed - so Morgoth won't be allowed back in until after the Second Music has healed him! I'm sure the Valar would love that, but I'm not sure we can accept Tom's word on it. I'm sure there are more quotes. I'd swear I remember one which had Tulkas chasing Melko up a tree, but I can't track that one down. Between this lot, though, we've got at least four, maybe five versions. Chronologically: 1. Melko tricks the Sun and Moon into both leaving Arda, then destroys the Doors of Night. Fionwe, son of Manwe, kills Melko. Turambar is a Vala, and fights alongside Fionwe. He's also probably still married to Nienor, because that's not messed up. 2. The classic version. Morgoth sneaks back into the world and destroys the Sun and Moon. Earendil drives him out of the skies, and Tulkas, Turin (back from the Halls of Mandos), and Fionwe/Eonwe will fight him. The armies of Numenor will be released (though whose side they'll fight on is anyone's guess), and after the battle Arda will be remade (with the help of the Dwarves). 2.5. (Possibly) Turin will return from the dead and kill Ancalagon the Black. This is actually chronologically the last of all, but it's clearly a modification of 2, so it goes here. 3. The Dark Lord wins. All Light is destroyed, and Morgoth (or Sauron) rules over a dead world. 4. There is no war. At some point, the Valar presumably get together and just fix the world. Then they fix Morgoth and all his creatures, let them back in, and everything is hunky dory. There are a lot of other stories tied up in this. The War of Wrath was a 'Final Battle' in Tolkien's early mythology. The great Faring Forth from Tol Eressea aimed to rekindle the Magic Sun and redeem the elves left in the mortal lands - but ended with their utter defeat and fading. And the Athrabeth has Andreth relating a story she doesn't believe herself, about the Old Hope of Men, wherein Iluvatar himself will be born on Middle-earth. But as far as the Dagor Dagorath itself goes, this is about all I can find. In closing, here's the final words of the Athrabeth, with Finrod once again conveying Tolkien's message in all of this: that what's important is not the End of Days, but what comes after: Quote:
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#3 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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Huinesoron has given a pretty comprehensive response, so I'll only add this:
I have this possibly erroneous memory that there was once a hint of an idea in a version of the Second Prophecy which essentially said that if Men sided with Morgoth then Morgoth would win, but if Men sided with the Valar then he would lose. That being said, I can't substantiate this. Perhaps it was just my imagination.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#4 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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You're right! Sort of & maybe. This is tied up in the Faring Forth, which is a fairly nebulous idea from the end of the original legendarium. The quote I think you're thinking of is this:
Quote:
What makes all this even more confusing is that the Faring Forth happened - sort of. Tolkien's notes for the end of the Book of Lost Tales include this: Quote:
Also! I found the other story I was thinking of, with Melkor being chased up a tree. The BoLT material is super weird, did I mention? Quote:
And finally... that pine tree may well exist in the real world. Tavrobel is pretty closely identified with Great Haywood, where Edith Tolkien lived in the winter of 1916. Gilfanon, in whose garden the pine grew, lived in the House of the Hundred Chimneys near the bridge of Tavrobel. One popular guess at the house Tolkien was thinking of is Shugborough Hall, which sits right next to a rather gorgeous old bridge outside Great Haywood. And wouldn't you know it, guess what the most prominent tree in the gardens of Shugborough is? ![]() Yup. (Bridge of Tavrobel, Gilfanon's house, Great Pine of Tavrobel) Watch out - you never know who might be coming down... hS |
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#5 |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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I don't remember where I read it, it was online somewhere but one line I do recall was "Manwe and Varda perish under the sinking sea" or something to that effect. An orcish chant foretelling Morgoth's final victory it seemed.
I don't remember where I read it, but I do recall that line in particular. |
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#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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Ah, now I know what you're thinking of. I didn't recognise the line, but the only place I know of that could contain it as a chant would be one of the epic poems. Sure enough, in the Lay of Leithian, Sauron says these lines:
Quote:
Is this a prophecy? I'd say not. Rather, it's a prayer of sorts to Morgoth Bauglir, asking or hoping that he will bring the world into utter darkness. Which makes Orcish religion a seriously messed-up prospect; I'm not sure anyone's ever written about Orcs as a cult before, but look at that: they swear vows to the Lord of Mirk, Maker, Gift-Giver, King of Kings and Despoiler of Bliss, and what they vow is 'death to law, to light, to love'. Wow. What this does give us is Morgoth's idea of how the Dagorath should go: he gets to destroy everything. That's the key difference between Morgoth and Sauron: Sauron may not want to create, precisely, but he does want to rule. For Morgoth, ruling is just a means to an end, and the end is smashing the world. hS Last edited by Huinesoron; 09-23-2022 at 05:56 AM. |
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#7 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 785
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I really need to read up. My knowledge is getting sloppy.
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"Since the evening of that day we have journeyed from the shadow of Tol Brandir." "On foot?" cried Éomer. |
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#8 | |
Wight
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 118
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Quote:
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#9 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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Every so often I come back to this thread to grin once again at the story where Morgoth gets chased up a tree.
![]() This time, I'm here because Arvegil145 has discovered that Tolkien actually amended the HoME V version of the End of Days quoted in post #2. The amendments are listed by Christopher in HoME XI, giving us a 1958 Second Prophecy which reads: Quote:
There are several references in The Nature of Middle-earth to the End of Days, though most just relate to Elvish aging. The only relevant one would seem to be this: Quote:
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#10 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,856
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Bouncing in again to add a potential Dagorath text: as identified here by Arvegil145, Finduilas may make reference to it in The Children of Hurin:
Quote:
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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