![]() |
![]() |
Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
![]() |
#1 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
Relationship between Thingol and Cirdan
Just as it says on the tin, what do you think was the familial relationship between Thingol and Cirdan?
Obviously there's no concrete answer to the question (yet), but I'd really like to hear other people's opinions on this - just for the fun of it! We know that Thingol and Cirdan were related by blood: Quote:
and especially this: Quote:
Personally, and there really is no good evidence for this, my head-canon is that Cirdan was Thingol's (and Olwe's) uncle. Why? No good reason other than the fact that Cirdan always struck me as the 'cool uncle' sort of guy - and also because Thingol's parents joined the Great March (at least according to one text in the NoME where Elmo, the younger brother of both Thingol and Olwe, was born during the said march), implying that at the very least some of the members of the generation preceding Thingol joined the Eldar.
__________________
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#2 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
![]() ![]() |
I'd say second cousin, and born after the Finding of the Eldar.
We know from PoME that Cirdan was originally named Nowe. In NoME, we learn in the latest Time & Aging texts XIII.1 & XVII.3 that Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were born between the Finding and the March. Their generation (generations - technically Ingwe is a generation above, though roughly the same age) are the only ones confirmed to have -we names, excluding Finwe's reuse of his own name. Tolkien provides a family tree for Ingwe: Ilion - Ingwe - Ingwil. It is *wild* speculation to say that after the Finding, -we names came into fashion around Cuivienen, but I'm doing it anyway. ![]() How close a cousin? Your WJ quite slightly implies Cirdan is "remoter kin" of Elwe, but that's by comparison with his brothers and their descendents. We know the grandchildren of Finwe considered each other close kin (first cousins); we know Elrond and Celebrian weren't seen as kin, despite sharing great-great grandparents through Elwe and Elmo (third cousins); so would sharing great- grandparents make you distant kin? It's the most tenuous chain of logic, but I like it. Cirdan Nowe is Elu Thingol's second cousin. hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#3 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
Quote:
Also, as an aside, where do you think Lenwe, the first chieftain of the Nandor, fits in this framework of "-wë" names? Do you think he also might've been a descendant of Enel and Enelye, like Thingol and Olwe? P.S. I just remembered that Aranwe and Voronwe exist - but they were born long after the time of the Three Ambassadors' journey to Aman (well, at least Voronwe was: we don't have a clue when Aranwe was born). 2) As to your point about Cirdan possibly belonging to Thingol's "remoter kin", I remembered that I completely overlooked a crucial quote from the PoME: Quote:
This quote (to me, at least) implies that Cirdan was closely related to Olwe (and Thingol by extension) - therefore, I don't think his relationship to Thingol/Olwe was anything remoter than them being at least first cousins. With that said, perhaps I'm twisting that quote too much, and if someone else has an alternative reading, I'd be happy to hear it!
__________________
Quote:
|
|||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#4 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Tolkien Gateway lists eight -wē names from "Cuivienen and the Great March": Morwë, Nurwë, Ingwë, Finwë, Elwë, Olwë, Nowë, Lenwë. All of them seem to have been energetic leaders, and given we know there were other name-forms around at the time (Ilion, Ingwil), it's hard to see that as pure coincidence. Notably, if Morwë and Nurwë's leadership of the Avari coexists with the presence of the Unbegotten at the Great Debate, the -wē leaders have more authority than the six who founded the entire race. I think it's very plausible that all of those leaders were born in the Golden Age of Cuivienen - after they were found by Orome, when there were gods and powers walking among them on a daily basis. (NoME says that the Istari and Melian were the Guardians of Cuivienen even when the various Valar weren't present.) The elves who take the lead in big decisions are the ones who have known the Powers literally since birth. That's about a 200 year span (per NoME). Ingwe was a generation up from Finwe and Elwe, but he was only a few decades older than them; his family must include multiple generations of "later babies" to push it down the ladder to the end of the generation. Cirdan, however, needs to share a recent ancestor with Thingol, so can't have diverged too much in the timing of the babies. I still think he's most likely a cousin. Quote:
(For ultra extra bonus speculation: if Ingwe's father was Ilion, does that imply Nowe's was *Nolion? Was Finwe son of *Fion, and Elwe the eldest son of *Elion? Can we extend this to brothers, via Elmo - do *Nolmo, *Finno, *Ingmo exist as potential March-born brothers? DEFINITELY NOT but I amuse myself, at least. ^_^) hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#5 | |||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This, of course, could've been just a case of high-positioned Elves in Beleriand (such as Thingol) recognizing Cirdan's inherent talents, but given that Cirdan ruled an entire realm (Falas), I can't help but wonder (Tolkien being Tolkien) if Cirdan was very closely related to Thingol/Olwe. P.S. Were Enel and Enelye silver-haired? Was it their line of descent that introduced silver/white hair among the Teleri? I don't think there's a concrete answer, but to me it seems natural.
__________________
Quote:
|
|||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#7 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
No worries! I never interpreted your statements as any kind of talking down.
__________________
Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#8 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
Quote:
I hope that makes sense. An additional point I failed to raise: Eol was also Thingol's kinsman, but he didn't seem to wield that much authority (aside from Nan Elmoth), unlike Cirdan who was held in high regard by both Thingol and the Sindar (as well as many of the Noldor). And given how Tolkien had a habit of assigning authority to people who were closely related to other nobility, I wouldn't be surprised if Cirdan was no exception.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 11-22-2023 at 03:58 AM. |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#9 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,857
![]() ![]() |
Quote:
Quote:
Anyway, leaving Enel to his fate, what about Cirdan? I quite like your point about important families, and the stuff about the Debate feeds into it: Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were leaders because they were descended in direct male line from the Three Fathers. Then virtually every grandson of Finwe winds up ruling someplace or another. I was dubious, because Elmo and his line appear to do nothing except for Celeborn and Nimloth, but a) that's partly because they were invented so late, and b) younger brothers being subordinate to their elders is pretty typical. Finrod's siblings all answered to him, for instance. I still think they're of an age, and that cousin is more likely than uncle, but I'm willing to be persuaded on "first cousin". Which seems to be about the degree of kinship Eol exhibits, come to think of it - he acts as an independent ruler who owes a certain degree of fealty to the senior line, much like House Finarfin to Fingolfin. Were Nowe and Eol brothers? Or (if "Tatyarin Eol" is accepted), are they both first cousins to Thingol, with Eol's mother being of the Second Kindred? What would the Primitive Quendian version of Eol be, anyway? hS
__________________
Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#10 | |||||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 332
![]() |
Quote:
However, given the fact that the Elf-fathers (with possible exception of Enel) were pretty dead-set on keeping their authority, even after c. 2,000 years had passed since the Awakening of the Elves, I'm not quite sure about them relegating their authority to Morwe/Nurwe after the Eldar/Avar split. Also, slightly off-topic, but the name 'Morwe' (for whatever reason) makes me think that he was a Tatyarin Elf (maybe even a relative of Finwe - though he was certainly older than Finwe due to the fact that he was born before Orome found the Quendi! Of course, this is just bat**** speculation); same with Nurwe, who strikes me as a Nelyarin Elf - perhaps another descendant of Enel who decided to stay at Cuivienen and was groomed for leadership by Enel (though Nurwe was also older than Thingol and probably his parents too)! And before I end my wild speculations, I just remembered a passage by CT from The War of the Jewels, Note 12 to the 'Quendi and Eldar', p. 418: Quote:
But I digress. Quote:
However, as to your second point, wouldn't it make much more sense that the original 144 Elves and their immediate descendants would've been the most attached to their place of origin and most resistant to change? Not that this argument really matters if Tolkien ultimately decided against it. Quote:
a) Thingol and Cirdan are first cousins or b) Cirdan is Thingol's uncle With that said, both of these theories are not exactly foolproof, to put it mildly. Quote:
And as to Cirdan and Eol being brothers...well...that would've been a plot twist ![]() Quote:
In fact, it has gotten so bad that Tolkien eventually just threw his arms up in the air and said "screw it, sometimes names don't really mean anything" - which hasn't prevented language nerds digging through obsure scribbles and linguistic journals trying to find some clue. In fact, in a recent Discord discussion at the Vinye Lambengolmor server I proposed that the name might be of Khuzdul origin (one of my more out-there ideas, to be honest). But my post is already way too long as it is.
__________________
Quote:
Last edited by Arvegil145; 11-22-2023 at 05:38 PM. |
|||||||
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
|
|
![]() |