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#1 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Of the Rings of Power
This is the first draft of the chapter Of the Rings of Power in the part The Black Years.
There is no Basic Text in this chapter and I will give source information for each part that is used. They are mostly from The History of Galadriel and Celeborn in UT and Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age from Sil77. The markings are: BY-HL-zz for Black Years, Head-Lines, marking all headlines for the chapters in this part. RP-SL-zz for Of the Rings of Power, Story-Line, to document all changes that construct the main text. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the text that is mentioned in the source information of each insert. Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information example = text inserted for grammatical or metrical reason /example/ = outline expansion Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. Quote:
BY-HL-12: The title is taken of course from the part of Sil77. It is used here only in part to dedicate the chapter that tells about the making of these Rings and the War about the possession of these Rings that followed immediately. RP-SL-01 & RP-SL-02: I start with the statement when Sauron left Eregion. As in the next paragraph Sauron is reported to smith the One Ring, this seems the logical arrangement. RP-SL-03: I skiped the open war, since the speed of the narrative as I constructed it is much slower than that of Sil77, so that this seemed not to fit. RP-SL-04, RP-SL-05 & RP-SL-08: This construction of text should transport the counsel of Galadriel and Celbrimbor and the difference in power of the Elven-Rings. RP-SL-07: As it is clear from all we know about the Rings, that Galadriel could not at that time (and for a long time in future) us the Ring she received, I added the later here to avoid a false impression that she used it immediately. RP-SL-08, RP-SL-24, RP-SL-31: A Footonte with comments of Christopher removed. RP-SL-09, RP-SL-17, RP-SL-26, RP-SL-27, RP-SL-30, RP-SL-38, RP-SL-45: Comment of Chirstopher Tolkien about the construction of the text removed. RP-SL-10: Here I worked into the narrative the story of Durin reviving the first of the Seven directly by the Elves and not via Sauron. RP-SL-11, RP-SL-12 & RP-SL-13: I did not use over much of this passage, but wanted to document what I left out or better replaced by the more full telling from UT. RP-SL-14: This is the first step in the war: Sauron is causing disarrangement about the friends of his foes. RP-SL-15: The reference had become unclear by my arrangement of the text. RP-SL-16: UT has the fullest account of the War in Eriador. RP-SL-18: I am not sure, if we should include this date, so I am open for a different editing. RP-SL-20: I added this to show some of the results of that war. RP-SL-21: Now the War was not restricted to Eriador and here we report what we know about the other battle-places. RP-SL-22: Here we change back to Eriador and report in special the history of Galadriel and Celeborn. RP-SL-23: The reference to this council as the first has to carry a long with reader if he should make the connection, therefore I added the ‘White’ to help that process. RP-SL-25: I think we should report the giving of Narya to Círdan when it realy happens. RP-SL-28: As we know that Amroth came to rule in Lórinand onlky after the death of his father in the Battle on Dagorlad, we have to change this. We also may discuss here if the name is Amdír or Malgalad. RP-SL-29: Maybe this is a bit redundant, but I felt that some ‘intro’ was usefull for what follows. RP-SL-32: I think we have to simply this. RP-SL-33 & RP-SL-34: Here we come to the difficult part of the movement of the pair. As I see it Galadriel left Lórinand in the care of Amdír in search for Celeborn and a home nearer to the Sea. She found Celebron in Imladris but after the council she moved with him back to Lórinand to farther prepare it for the defence. But in the end her longing for the West made her after ‘many years’ go to Lindonm where later Celeborn rejoined her. RP-SL-35: I think the note referred to is published in the meant time. I will look for it, but if anybody has an idea I would be thankful for a hint. RP-SL-36 & RP-SL-37: As this is the only fiting place I see, I added here the full story of the movement of the pair. RP-SL-39: Amroth is now the son of Amdír not of Galadriel, but still since she had been in Lórinand more than once and also for some considerable time, it is quite likely that young Amroth die visit Galadriel at Edhellond. We might remember here that there was a custom among the Edain leaders of Beleriand to send their sons to other relams for education. It could well be that they did so following a custom among the Eldar (e.g. beside Amroth here Gil-galad in the First Age). RP-SL-40, RP-SL-41, RP-SL-42, RP-SL-43 & RP-SL-44: I took up both stories about the first founding of the heaven as alternatives. This can be discussed of course. RP-SL-46: Here at the end of the chapter we come back to Sauron and the Rings of Power. Respectfully Findegil |
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#2 | ||||||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Excellent chapter Fin, and I think we will have far less discussion on it than the past few. I still have a few points to make, which I will put below. Anything I do not mention is something I agree to.
RP-SL-12: I see why you deleted the last part of the sentence: Quote:
RP-SL-18: This is an editorial addition by CT, and we do not need it. I say we remove it. RP-SL-21: This is all fine, but you added an 'also' which does not need to be added. RP-SL-28: I think we should go with Amdir. Malgalad and Amdir are said by CT to be of the same time period and one cannot supersede the other based on seniority. However, Amdir is the name tied to Amroth, and I think keeping this association is reason enough to use this name instead of Malgalad. We could consider giving him the name of Malgalad as an epithet, but that I think if we have to pick one or the other, we should use Amdir. RP-SL-29: In this addition, the reference to the realm of Thranduil should be changed to the realm of Oropher for the same reason as RP-SL-28. Thranduil is said to lead back his people from the Last Alliance, where Oropher perished, so at this time, Oropher is still ruling over the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood. Call this change RP-SL-29.5. RP-SL-35: To answer your question about where this comes from, it is from one of the footnotes to Dwarves and Men, so it is a late source. In my draft for The Sindarin Princes of the Silvan Elves I used it in place of your addition from Appendix B of LotR. I would argue that it makes more sense there, but there is no real harm in including it here instead, as we know he dwelt there longer at this time. RP-SL-38: This is not related to this deletion (which I agree with) but to the editing you did afterwards which is not marked. We can call this RP-SL-38.5 for convenience. You changed it because they are setting out from Lindon, not Imladris, but your editing is awkward. I think it is smoother to simply remove "from Imladris." This is smoother and accomplishes the same goal. RP-SL-40 to 45: This is the part with the most difficulty in the chapter, as I'm sure you could predict. There are several points which I must raise: 1) No matter what we do with these additions, we should probably use the actual source material CT is referring to instead of his summary 2) Should we give both alternate versions or only give one? For the first point: the first story given (about the Sindar from the havens) is given in Dwarves and Men during the discussion of the Middle Men. You already took a large piece of this discussion for the Aldarion and Erendis chapter (which was best), and I think this is also the better place for this info, and so we should include it here instead of in the Middle Men discussion. But we should use the actual story instead of CT's summary. However, half of the actual story is in a footnote, and it may be desirable to raise it up into the main text. Here is the text as it stands in Dwarves and Men: Quote:
Moving on to the second version, this is based on the Rivers and Beacon Hills of Gondor given in Vinyar Tengwar 42. As this is a rare text, I will give it in full here (I apologize for the length): Quote:
Quote:
Having now given both texts as they stand in their origins, I will discuss which one is more fitting, or if both should be given. Both texts are dated c. 1969, so one cannot be shown to be later than the other. However, the second story was rejected by Tolkien, and contains as an essential element a great contradiction to a much later story (Cirdan is one of the latest of his writings.) Therefore, I would posit that the second story is ruled out by nature of its being rejected by Tolkien, and indeed abandoned mid-sentence and replaced. However, as Fin has said, I think we should combine when possible. Thus, I would recommend combining where possible. However, the entirety of the beginning is either not fitting to use here, or a summary of things already said in other chapters, and the main story of the second version is unusable. Therefore, the only detail we can take is this: Quote:
Quote:
RP-SL-47: I do not see the reason for this change. If there is a good reason, then 'dedicated' is certainly the wrong word to use here, but as it is, I am unsure what your reasoning and intention behind this are. I apologize for the length of the post, but I think it was a good chapter and the discussion will, for the most part, be pretty painless. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-29-2018 at 11:20 PM. |
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#3 | ||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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RP-SL-12: Sorry maybe it is to hot today over here in Europe, but hwhat is your suggestion here to keep the complete sentence or to remove it completely?
RP-SL-18: Okay. RP-SL-21: If you think so we can go without, but I am not that sure. RP-SL-28: The association with Amroth was as well my reason to prefer Amdír. RP-SL-29: Agree and good catch, I missed that one. RP-SL-35: Thanks for the hint, I will then take the original note to creat our text: Quote:
Quote:
A secondary thought was that the Elves for sure never made the Rings for anyone else than themselves (why should they?) and that the dedication to the other free people was done by Sauron. But maybe I overdid it here, because you are right the dedication was done while Sauron made the One and created the Ring-poem that the Elves “heard” when he first set the One on his finger (it can as well be that the dedication was part of Saurons original plan that he concealed from the Elves). So I agree that we should simply let the text stand as it was. The Reader will remember that Celebrimbor had proberbly himself given the first of the Seven to Durin. Respectfully Findegil |
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#4 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RP-SL-12: I am suggesting keeping the rest of the sentence. So it would look like this:
Quote:
RP-SL-35: Perfect! RP-SL-40 to 45: This is perfect, but I would only say that to keep the phrase "The Silvan Elves were Middle Elves according to the Númenórean classification" we must have already discussed the Númenórean classifications of peoples. Therefore we must either insert this classification into an earlier chapter, or change this sentence. Personally, I think we should remove that bit, since on the Middle Men discussion, it is said that the terms arose at the time of Ar-Adûnakhôr, and relates to the nature of the divide of the Faithful and the King's Men, which we have not yet reached in the narrative. Therefore I would say we should slightly edit it thus: Quote:
Last edited by ArcusCalion; 05-30-2018 at 02:17 PM. |
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#5 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Rp-SL-12: On the one hand this is probabaly wrong, since the Dwarves beliefed that the Elves rescued 4 Rings. On the other it is redundant info since we tell the tale of the rescue later.
Rp-SL-21: Okay. Rp-SL-45.5: Agreed. But I think you took out not enough: Quote:
Findegil |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Agreed to all. Looks like another successful chapter!
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#7 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RP-SL-29.5: I just realized, we should change 'Mirkwood' here to 'the Greenwood' since when Oropher ruled there it was called by that name. We can discuss if the statement about the realm of Thranduil in the Third Age in Mirkwood at the end of the paragraph needs changing, but I think it is ok to leave it.
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#8 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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RP-SL-29.5: I don't agree to this. At least it is clear that we have a compilation of later days. So the naming made be out of time. Like the use of Dol Amroth long before the death of Amroth.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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The usage of Dol Amroth is always in the context of the future: 'In the lore of Dol Amroth.' This case of Mirkwood is used erroneously (before we even explain the name Mirkwood) as the current residence of the elvenking.
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#10 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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RP-SL-29.5: Okay. I see you are right. BUt I think the article should not be used. It is not 'the Mirkwood' so it should not be 'the Greenwood'. Kapitalisation is enough to show that it is a name. If we want t ob be even more clear about that we should use the full name 'Greenwood the Great', which I think is the best solution.
RP-SL-40b: Sorry for coming up with this again, but I found that I used the complete passage later at the end of 'Tal-Elmar', where I place the discussion about the Middle-men. Therefore I would eliminat it here: Quote:
Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 06-05-2018 at 06:15 AM. |
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#11 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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RP-SL-29.5: Agreed to Greenwood the Great.
RP-SL-40b: I see why you removed it, but I think that once this sentence is gone, the antecedent to the 'This' is gone as well. The way this new version flows is somewhat choppy. It sounds at first like Galadriel and Celeborn establish a settlement, and then it says it one was founded aftrwards. I think to remedy this all we need to do is add 'settlement' after the 'This' like so: Quote:
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#12 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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RP-SL-40b: Agreed.
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#13 | |||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I skimmed through the previous chapters before reading this one. The previous chapters all build up nicely to this one, as they're all related to building up defenses and preparing for the inevitable next move by Sauron. I have a comment about the placement of the Elessar stories but I will post them in that thread to avoid confusion.
Here are my comments: 1) RP-SL-26: I agree that the mention of the date and the "Tale of Years" should be removed from the main text, but maybe it could be placed in a footnote? Something like: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
3) I am confused about one section: Quote:
4) As it stands, the transition into "But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining rings..." is a bit awkward. The sentence which precedes it is "But they were never wholly free of an unquiet and a yearning for the Sea..." It also feels abrupt to transition back to Sauron after several paragraphs discussing Galadriel, Celeborn and different groups of Elves. I propose this order: Quote:
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#14 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) As Fin will tell you, the project is very much against putting things into a footnote where none exists in Tolkien's draft. We do not need this information; it is not crucial. Therefore the simplest solution is simply to remove it, since it is CT's comment anyway and not part of the actual narrative.
2) I did not notice this, but you are right in both pointing out the problem, and in suggesting a solution. I agree with removing the sentence as the marker RS-SL-32b. 3) You are right this is odd. Maybe we could combine them like so: Quote:
4) I like this better as well, but I would change the marker to RP-SL-46b. |
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#15 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I agree with all of your comments, and I like the way you combined things in point 3.
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#16 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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RP-SL-26: What is our source for creating a footnote here? For me that is a no go.
2) RP-SL-32: Agreed. But I would keep ‘At that time’. 3) Okay Gandalf85 had the text as we wanted it. And I don’t really see the problem. In the second sentence it says that ‘At that time’, which means both sentence speak about the same event. But if both of you think ArcusCalion edit is better, I am okay with it. But the editing is much easier, I think, in this way: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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3) For me Fin, your construction is still awkward in that it mentions Celeborn going to Lorien twice in a row for no particular reason. I think we should just keep "and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin" as part of RP-SL-32b.
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#18 | |||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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1) I didn't have a source for the footnote, I was proposing using some of the main text to create a footnote. But if the project is against creating footnotes, then just removing it as in your draft is fine.
3) I am still confused by the movements of Galadriel and Celeborn. We agree that these two sentences are occurring at the same time and referring to the same movement, right? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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#19 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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3) I have to apologies again. That was my bad editing. I didn’t want to change the clean text of ArcusCalions version, I wanted only to simplify the editing. I agree to join the sentences and only to keep ‘and fortified it against any further attempts of Sauron to cross the Anduin.’ But I think we should make clear that Celeborn was acting in that fortification and not Galadriel, otherwise we change a fact in the story.
Posted by gandalf85: Quote:
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Findegil |
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#20 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is fine for me, except you have a typo. You have 'here' instead of 'her.'
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#21 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Fin, I really like this version. I too was worried about "changing the facts" by implying both Galadriel and Celeborn fortified against Sauron since this is not explicitly stated (even though I think it's reasonable to assume Galadriel was involved, the text does not support this).
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#22 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Thanks for catching that typo. Yes, the flow and understandability good now. So fear that we might have again many discussion about this chapter if Aiwendil will come to read it. But that is as it is and we can only wait and see.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Welcome to the downs emmausa!
If you would like us to react on your post, (why would you post, if you don't want, anyway) you have to be a bit more specific. What do you mean by "unreasonable details"? The goal of the project is explicitly to add authoritative detailsl otherwise lost in the more general texts that do construct the legends of Middle-earth. So what do you call "unreasonable"? Maybe the easiest way to answer that question, is to give us the examples you found in this chapter and tell us what you think about them. Respectfully Findegil |
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#24 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,862
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Sadly, emmausa, adamusa, and karausa seem to be bots. I'm pretty sure they're powered by the current variety of chatbot / "AI", scraping the forum to give a response that looks superficially realistic. Another example on the fanfic forum last month embarassed itself by attempting to copy the style of the thread it was in... only to discover that there was only one post, so it just blatantly reworked that and called it good. It even snuck a link into its quote of Mithadan, which I'm sure it thought was very clever and sneaky!
hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#25 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Yes, that was my first impresion as well, but than I didn't cost me much to give it a chance.
Respectfully Findegil |
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