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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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Of Men
This is the first draft of the chapter Of Men
Our basis text is that of Later Quenta Silamrillion given in HoME 11; page 173-175, based on the complete text given in HoME 5; pages 245-248. I have not tracked the changes from QS to LQ, but have taken them up silently into the text. Wherever the text is different from that this is marked by an editing mark. The markings are: OM-xx for any and all changes. There were not too many, so to give multiple kinds of markers seemed redundant. Some conventions of my writing: Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned) Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes <source example> = additions with source information Quote:
OM-02: as in other chapters, I change magic to enchantments, because the word magic has evil connotations for Tolkien. OM-03: the LT word fairies almost always refers to the Elves. OM-04: I removed the reference about the Haven of the Sun, as its validity in later myth is questionable. OM-05: I included this as a footnote, since I could not figure out how to work it into the text, but I think it is necessary to include the information, as Tu needs to exit the story somehow. OM-06: simply harmonizing the transition from LT to QS OM-07: Because of the Lost Tales story, the Avari cannot say to have not known Hildorien. However, CT notes the impossibility of this assertion based on the geographic placing of Hildorien in the earlier part of the passage, so I figured it was not a contradiction or too risky of me to drop it. OM-08: This insert from the Grey Annals describes the exodus of Melkor to the East to corrupt men as proof, and was not contradicted later on, so this seems the best place to include it. OM-09: I changed "but" to "and" because with the intrusion of the Melkor story into the narrative, the relation between the former end of the last paragraph (when every leaf is green) to the beginning of this one (But the day oft..) is lost. The And is a smoother transition. OM-10: Simply reconciling with the later version of elvish rebirth myth. OM-11: adding in Elros. The Lost Tales stuff is the most questionable part of the chapter, but I figured I'd throw it in, and let everyone decide what to do with it. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 09-03-2017 at 02:26 AM. |
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#2 |
King's Writer
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Here also just a few general remarks:
Again Of Men and Dwarves should not be considered as unuseable, because part of it is considered for the Second Age. The overall idea behind the arangement is more or less chronological. Therefore what belongs here of that Essay should be included here. The LT chapter about Murmenalda is beautyfull, but if it can be used? I am very much in doubt about that. Tû has for me a very dark implication. His fading before the sun, seems to imply some strong connection to Melkor and his dominion in Utumno, where we are told that the creatures that were brought into being could later on not stand the light of the sun (e.g. Orcs and Trolls). For me Tû is therefore one of Melkors agents that gave him an early warning of the awakening of Men, and allowed the story of Adanel to happen. Anyhow we have to be extremly caerful about the Tale of Adanel. Beacuse that is a much later source and even the slightes contradiction must be avoided. Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
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The Dwarves and Men essay would not add anything to this essay, only to the Coming of Men into the West. So in this thread I suppose that argument need not affect it.
In regards to the Mermenalda and Tu etc. I think that even with this story, the Tale of Adanel is not contradicted. Perhaps we may remove the part about the first Men being unabble to speak, since they may have heard the voice of Eru in their hearts. |
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#4 | ||||
King's Writer
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Beside some details that I will list later, I see three mayor elements in the additions from LT that we have to discuss:
1. Tû: What kind of being is he? LT says he is a ‘fay’, but that does not fit in the later work. LT names him ‘Tû the wizard’. That might be useable. When he hear about Nuin finding Murmenalda, he is reported to in ‘fear of Manwë, nay even of Ilúvatar the Lord of All’. Such knowledge in my opinion make him one of the Ainur. But being ‘more skilled in magic than any that have dwelt ever yet beyond the land of Valinor’? This must have included even in its old circumference in LT Melko and all his servants (the Balrogs ...). Sounds very strange to me. But Tolkien is especially in LT very free with his use of such superlatives. So we might change that one as well as the use of ‘fay’ earlier. So in the end if we include him we have to unspecific about what he is. As said, before Tû’s connotation is for me that of a bad boy. Tolkien might not have been planed him as a servant of Melko, but to ‘draw the Elves to him’ to ‘become a mighty king among them’ and ‘send them ... on his business’ does not sound good for me. Teaching the Elves ‘many deep things’ could be seen neutral, but that the doors of Tû’s abode ‘have long been sealed and none know now the entry’ makes a farther sinister impression. Also the fact that ‘Tû faded before the sun and hid in his bottomless caverns’ doesn’t make for a more comfortable feeling about that character. Overall I don’t see any forcing reason not to include Tû, but he is a difficult character, so I think we would need some good reason to include him. 2. Murmenalda: As we read in the The legend of the Awaking of the Quendi about the unbegotten elves that: ‘While their first bodies were being made from the 'flesh of Arda' the Quendi slept 'in the womb of the Earth', beneath the green sward, and awoke when they were full-grown.’ That sounds very much like to Murmenalda and the sleepers in that valley. So I would say yes Murmenalda and it description could be taken. 3. Nuin as an {Ilkorin}[Avari] to find the sleepers in Murmenalda: That one of the Elves coming upon these unbegotten Men while they sleep seems possible, but that Elves were companions of Men from the first awakening (or even woke a pair before their time)? How could that fit to the things that Andreth told Finrod [Athrabeth: Quote:
So what is left of the story in LT? Nuin coming to the Mumenalda and telling Tû about the sleepers. But Tû did know already about them, as he shied back from sending his people to these parts of Endor. Is this worth lifting into this chapter? I am in doubt. A bit more details: OM-01: I think the first sentence is not useable. Can we say that the Quendi ‘had the gift of speech direct from Ilúvatar’? When we read in the Story of their awakening that:[quote]Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to 'think of words' to speak and sing in. ... Now after a time, when they had dwelt together a little, and had devised many words, ...[/b]For me that is a clear contradiction. The same here: ‘... yet is none so little changed as the tongue of the Dark Elves of {Palisor}[Endor].’ If we compare to Shiboleth: Quote:
Stature of sleepers: Quote:
Not important but as an aside note: ‘..., and he said to Nuin’ is the end of the addition nominated as from LT. You have missed a ‘>’ sign at this point. And the nomination could be more specific, so I did find the source easy, that might not be true for everybody. I think LT, Gilfano’s Tale is appropriate and the Outlines should also get an LT before, because there are other outlines all over HoME ‘At last, overcome by curiosity, he awakened two … Ermon and Elmir alone of’: As explained above at least this must go, since it is contradicted by the Athrabeth. That Men saw the first sun rise in the West might be used, but it is told only in slightly different words in the basic text §82. OM-05: This is not a footnote in Outline D, so it should not be so in our editing. Maybe it must be put in a bit later, if it is to be text and not footnote. But what so ever ‘Men grew in stature’ should not be used. See above. OM-06: I don’t think this change is not needed if Nuin waking Ermon and Elmir is gone. OM-07: I am not happy with this change. What about: Quote:
OM-09: Agreed. OM-10: Agreed. Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
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To your three points:
1. I see the difficulty, and support the removal of the "most skilled in magic" portion, but I do not see the sinister connotation. Melian and Thingol drew elves to them and became mighty king and queen among them, even though she is a Maia, but it is not sinister remotely. To me, the fading before the sun bit simply suggests he is a Maia of Lorien who likes mists and twilight, not that he is evil. I feel that it would be good to include them, if only for the sake of fleshing out this part of the legendarium, since it is only very broadly sketched out. The Murmenalda description and the Cuivienen and Avari are all great images, and I think it would be a shame to lose them. 2. I am glad. 3. I had not noticed this, but you are of course right. I have edited the LT insertion accordingly. OM-01: I see you are right. I will remove it. I will include an edited form of the whole insertion below. OM-02: The word fairies is used to describe the elves as well, cf. Elwing the fairy. The sense that I got was that the Hisildi were the Avari of his realm. The stature of the sleepers must be changed, agreed. I have fixed this. I have removed this section. OM-05: I have inserted it at the end of the following paragraph. See below. OM-06: agreed. OM-07: Agreed OM-08: I have fixed these, thanks for catching them. Here is the edited version of the LT insert and the following paragraph. Quote:
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#6 |
King's Writer
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Sorry but reading your new editing, I found what kicks out Nuin for good: 'in regions which neither the Eldar nor the Avari have known'. Since this from the later source it dinies that any Avari had found Murmenalda. So if we want to keep the description, we must make Nuin some thing else. I would simply make him one of Tû's people.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#7 |
Quentingolmo
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agreed
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#8 | |
King's Writer
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After thinking for a long time about the addition from LT I made up me mind that we might even take more from that same source. The Outlines A to D of the LT give after the awaking of Men a description of the Battle of Palisor between Dark-elves and Fankil an agent of Melkor who is leading a host of Goblins and Dwarves. Men in this Battle fought on both sides. Of course we must ask if that is a valid information in the later story frame. And I think it is. My reason for this is the following: That there was fighting of Men against Men is stated in The Tale of Adanel. That the Renegades (the Men that relapsed from the worship of Melkor) had conflicts with some Dwarves that were in some kind of alliance with Melkor is stated in Of Dwarves and Men. That the Renegades had dealings with Dark-elves is in all versions of the Silmarillion reported as a fact known through the influence that the Dark-elvish speech had have on that of the Folk of Beor. That means all three ingredients of the Battle of Palisor are attested in later (even very late) sources. Even so they are attested independently and not all together, this makes it highly probable for me at least, that the conflict described in the Battle of Palisor never changed in Tolkiens vision of Middle-earth.
So this is my proposal for the text: Quote:
OM-01.5 & OM-02: the superlative ‘more … then’ I removed. Very similar things were said about Melian therefore it might be saver to remove this. OM-03.2: This was already discussed. Nuin can not be a Dark-elf if the Elves never had known about the area where Men awoke. OM-03.3: Again Nuin is no Elf therefore what is said here must be reduced to his abilities, not that of all Avari. OM-03.4: This was as well already discussed: Men and Elves were of the same height. OM-03.5: I introduce this marker to indicate were we change from full narrative to outline. OM-03.6: This change was discussed above: The Tale of Adanel denies the possibility of Men being instructed in the very first beginning by anybody. OM-06.1: The last bit of the Murmealda story. OM-06.2: Ermon and Elmir together with Nuin as teachers of the Elves are to be removed. OM-06.3: A very great Age does not fit any later chronology. OM-06.4: Even so Andreth does say that she does not know if Men meet Elves before they had their affair with Morgoth, from the Tale of Adanel that is my clear impression. Therefore I shifted this passage to a later place in the chapter (see OM-07.1). OM-06.5: The intro of Fankil and the Úmaiar from Outline D which seems needed and for which I couldn’t find a better place. OM-07: We already discussed this lighter editing. OM-07.1: Here I placed the meeting with the Dark-elves. It is now after Melkor dealings with Men. OM-07.2: This is now the Battle of Palisor. My Reason to introduce it I already explained above. The intro of ‘but’ makes him acting in a kind of counter action to the friendship of Men and Elves, which form was anyway implicit hinted at. OM-07.3: If we use Ermon than I see no good reason not to use Elmir as well. OM-07.4: In the later time line Dagor-nuin-Giliath is already over. So the Battle of Palisor can not be the first war of Orcs and Elves. OM-07.5: Only Outline A does provide the detail that the Men of East and South worshipped Fankil and Melkor, and that Fankil possessed Palisor after the Battle. It might be argued that this last detail was skipped deliberately, but that the host of Tareg left Palisor with many of the lost kindreds is said in D, so it seems quiet natural that Fankil and his Dwarves in the end ruled in Palisor. OM-08: With all these text introduced the ‘But’ is no longer okay. Respectfully Findegil |
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#9 |
Quentingolmo
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OM-06.3: This whole sentence should be deleted, because the whole people of Men were in one place when Melkor appears to them in the Tale of Adanel, so they cannot spread across the earth.
OM-07.2: I would add an "evil" before the "Dwarves" at the first occurrence. Dwarves are not inherently evil in later versions, so that these dwarves are evil is a departure from the norm, and should be noted. As a general note I noticed that the base text of the chapter uses "Morgoth" whereas the Grey Annals and Lost Tales insertions use "Melkor." We should standardize as "Morgoth" throughout. |
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#10 | |
King's Writer
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OM-06.3: Okay, but then I think we have to skip the next as well. And probably it makes sense to put them in later:
Quote:
Melkor/Morgoth: In the insert of OM-06.5 I used Melkor deliberately since we are here recording past events from the time of Utumno. And also in the passage inserted under OM-07.5. Nobaody would worship ‘the Black Foe’ therefore Melkor is the batter name in this specific case. But for the inserts from GA I agree to change it to Morogth. Respectfully Findegil |
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#11 | ||||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Isn't the Tale of Adanel just that - a tale, vaguely remembered among the descendants of the original Men?
So why put so much weight to it? I'm saying this because I don't think we should delete the references to Nuin awakening Ermon and Elmir, nor them teaching the other Men language. Also, a fun fact - if Tu (being a fay in the BoLT) is a Maia, that would fit nicely with this statement in the NoME: Quote:
Of course, in this text Tolkien had a completely different conception of the timeline of Arda, as well as the duration of the Valian years - but that is in and of itself irrelevant to the point I'm trying to make: which is that Eru sent actual messengers to the OG Men from the very beginning! *There is also an interesting note to the text by Carl Hostetter which deals with the location of Men's original homeland far south of Utumno, which goes: Quote:
Quote:
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-06-2023 at 03:35 PM. |
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#12 |
King's Writer
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Most of the texts we work with are just tales! For me The Tale of Adanel and the philosophy of Athrabeth would no longer work at all, if Men would have some dealings with other Ainur or incarnates. The Voice is asking them to learn from expirence not from others. And the interpretation of the gift as presented in the Athrabeth seems to me only possible when you can't compare it to the longvety of the Elves or imortility of the Ainur.
Therefore I think Nuin can't wacke Ermon and Elmir and has to leave the newly awoken Men to sameself for a time. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-11-2023 at 03:36 AM. |
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#13 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
Also, Men have notoriously unreliable memories - especially across multiple generations!
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#14 |
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Sorry, Arvegil145, I lost your line of thought. What is you intention in this case? Or more concrete, what is your proposed change to our text?
Respectfully Findegil |
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#15 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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Quote:
And since the ancient history of Men is murky at best (obviously), I don't see any problems with us keeping multiple different accounts of their ancestral past (ala the Tale of Adanel). Moreover, I don't even see too much contradiction between these accounts, as per my previous reply - but that doesn't actually matter IMO. Tl;dr - when it comes to origins of Men, I have zero problems with including multiple contradictory accounts (even though I believe they're not as contradictory as they appear to be).
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#16 | |
King's Writer
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Here is the passage from the Athrabeth does for me denie an early contact of ELves or Aniur with Men:
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Anyhow, to take Nuin as one of the messangers sent by Eru himself from the NoME text would in itself deny that he would wake Ermon and Elmir before the appointed time. To take anything from Gilfanos Tale is a stretch in itself. I think we have gone that way as far as we can. Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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And as to the passage about Eru's 'messengers to Men' in the NoME, I suppose Tu serves that function better than Nuin. But as to your reference to the Athrabeth: one thing I always took from the discussion between Finrod and Andreth, and Andreth's recital of the Tale of Adanel, is that Men seem to be profoundly clueless as to their original nature (for one), and even the Edain still hold beliefs marred by Melkor's influence. Which is why I'm so liberal about the inclusions from the Gilfanon's Tale: all of the myths/legends/rumors about Men's early days are (and should be!) a giant mess of garbled, corrupted, and contradictory accounts.
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#18 |
King's Writer
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I don't see that we will find common ground here, between the two of us. I would like to hear some other voices.
respectfully Findegil |
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#19 | ||
Late Istar
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Quote:
However, I will jump in to say that I am against taking up this material from "Gilfanon's Tale". Not only because of the "Tale of Adanel", but because Tolkien very clearly seems to have decided, post-LT, that the earliest history of Men should not be directly depicted, and should be left ambiguous. Gilfanon's Tale is the tale of the Fall, which Tolkien later explicitly said (in Letter 131) does not appear in his Legendarium: Quote:
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#20 |
King's Writer
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This come not unexpected. And I agree, that might make more sense concentrat on one chapter at a time, if time is sparce as it seems to be in your case.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#21 |
Wight
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Well. I'm sorry I can't now put my text in english. I have no the sources here. But with a heading as that of the Second Prophecy of Mandos such as: A story among the men told... that, in my opinion, is valid because of the Mannish tradition stated by Tolkien we all know, it could be inserted an edited (reduced) extract of the Gilfanon text mentioned the discovering of the sleeping bodies by Nuin but not mention of the awakening nor mention of names.
This is my text translated by google, sorry sorry if it is of some help: A story among men told that there was an Avari Elf named Nuin, who was very wise and liked to travel long spaces. And once he went far to the east of Endor, and few of his people accompanied him, and strange tales were told about them; but advancing very far, he arrived at a strange and wonderful place; he had never seen anything like it. A wall like a mountain rose before him, and for a long time he looked for a way to overcome it, until he came across a passage, and it was very dark and narrow; It entered the great cliff and snaked its way down through it. He then gained courage and followed this narrow path until suddenly the walls lowered on one side and the other, and he saw that he had found the entrance to a great space enclosed in a ring of uninterrupted mountains whose extent he could not determine in the gloom. . Suddenly the sweet smells of the Earth rushed around him; There were no more adorable fragrances, and he stayed drinking the perfumes with deep delight, and among the fragrance of the nocturnal flowers came the deep odors that the pine forests release into the midnight air, and Nuin almost fainted before the charm of that dream place. He then descended deeper into the valley, treading lightly, overcome by an amazement he had not known before, and behold, under the trees he saw the warm twilight populated with sleeping forms, some linked in pairs, and others sweetly asleep alone, and Nuin stopped and marveled, barely breathing. Then he turned and stole out of that hallowed place, and returning again through the passage through the mountain, he hurried to his land, and told what he had seen. "And it seemed to me," he said, "that all those who slept were like little children." Then they were afraid of Ilúvatar the Lord of All; but nevertheless Nuin went there often, and he watched them sitting on a rock. On one occasion he tripped over one of the sleepers, who stirred but did not wake up. And then came the First Dawn. Greetings |
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#22 |
King's Writer
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So you skipt the references to Tû the wizard, and to the Battle of Palisor. That is an option.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#23 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I take back my previous comments about the inclusion of Nuin, etc. due to these two pieces from NoME:
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plus this: Quote:
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