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#1 |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Mîms Klage / The Complaint of Mim the Dwarf
I seem to be making a digital hoard of hard-to-find Tolkien texts. I have Songs for the Philologist, Concerning... 'The Hoard', and even The Boorman Script. I'm still hoping for a copy of the Zimmerman script treatment, but until that surfaces I have something, well, actually Tolkien...ish.
"The Complaint of Mîm the Dwarf" is a blended poem and prose piece by Tolkien which has never been published. The Estate has made it clear (post by Urulókë) that they will not publish it at all. But what has been published, way back in 1987, is a translation into German by Hans J. Schütz: Mîms Klage A scan from the 1987 book. 26 lines of poetry, and three pages of prose. Even my limited German tells me that it's very much a stream-of-consciousness - look at that section after the first paragraph break, where Mim speaks: Tink-tink-tink, tink-tonk, tonk-tonk, tink! No time to eat, no time to drink, tonk-tink! Tink-tonk, no time, tonk-tink, no time [to waste]! No time to sleep! No night and no day, just [haste]! Only silver and gold, hammered and [formed and shaped] and small, hard stones, [glittering] and cold Tink-tink, green and gold, tink-tink, blue and white Under my hands [quietly sprout and grow] long [leaves] and flowers, and red eyes [glowing] of [beasts] and birds between [branches and blossoms]. (Translation mine; [square brackets] are words I had to look up. I've not bothered to try and keep the rhyme or rhythm at this time.) Without translating the full piece it's hard to know when it takes place: Mim is described in the poem as 200 years old, but we don't have any other ages for him. Dwarves were typically born 100 years after their fathers, so even if this poem is set right before Mim's death he could still have the two adult or near-adult sons we see in the books. It takes place "Under a mountain, in an [impassable] land", which sounds like Amon Rudh, but poetically could be the ruins of Nargothrond. There's a rhyming translation of the poem in video here, along with some snippets of the prose. I will probably keep poking at the whole thing in my rough way, unless someone happens to come along who actually speaks German. ![]() (It's very tempting to imagine this as Mim working his curse into the hoard of Nargothrond, and thus link it directly to Concerning... 'The Hoard', but without translation I don't know how viable that is.) EDIT: My full, low-quality back-translation into English (as created in this thread) is here. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 07-13-2023 at 01:38 AM. |
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#2 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Taking a break from work-translating to do some fun-translating instead, I took a stab at the rest of the poem:
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Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered Bar-en-Danwedh, which they defiled and ravaged. They did not find Mim, lurking in his caves, and when they had departed from Amon Rudh Mim appeared on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpened a knife. The fiends/monsters who stole Mim's stuff are the Orcs; the pit of sand is the caves he hid in; and we even have a mention of the knife. Or perhaps the scene is a little later, after Androg drives him off "shrieking in fear... to the brink of the cliff and... down a steep and difficult goat's path that was known to him". That would certainly offer more opportunity for smithying than while he was waiting to go and stab Beleg, and the vague summaries I've seen of the prose section say that Mim thinks about his inability to forgive, which would link to having just gone after Beleg. I'm sure the answers, at least by implication, lie in the prose, but I'm not getting into that right now. ![]() hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 02-27-2023 at 10:57 AM. Reason: Reuniting poem. |
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#3 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I wonder why the Estate is so opposed to its publication? It's a rather odd position to take on an original JRRT poem.
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#4 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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I've taken a stab at the first prose paragraph, and hoooo boy, Mim is crazy: Quote:
hS
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#5 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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But is that what he's doing now, after his flight? Or is he muttering to himself about what he did before, and what has been taken from him? hS
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#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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One line has me so baffled that I've bracketed it: the German reads "Ringe für gierige Finger und Monde und Sterne und kunstlosen Schmuch fur die Buste hochmutiger Weiber." I'm comfortable with the translation, and without "und Monde und Sterne" it makes perfect sense (gems for swords, rings for fingers and brooches for women). But what does "and moons and stars" mean here? Are they more jewels for the women? Is this a German idiom? In any case, there's one (long) paragraph to go, in which we not only have the phrase "kleine Zwerg" - "petty-dwarf" - but the only conclusive link to the Legendarium: "eine Blute mit Tau darauf, so wie er einst glanzte am Tarn Aeluin". A flower with dew on it, as once shone beside Tarn Aeluin. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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German-American bilingual here, reading this with interest, though alas, with little time for thought and contemplation right now. Thanks, Huinesoron, for sharing this with us! I will try to answer as much as possible as soon as possible...
edit: I would say the line you bracketed is simply a list - "rings (for greedy fingers) and moons and stars and artless ornaments (for the breasts of proud ladies)". Moons and stars are popular designs for jewelry even nowadays, and Elves, should they have been the recipients, would have appreciated them even more than other races.
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' Last edited by Estelyn Telcontar; 03-03-2023 at 02:57 AM. Reason: adding content |
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#8 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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![]() So what can we say about Mim? He first began to craft in Dorthonion, by Tarn Aeluin; for a long period he devoted himself to making naturalistic crafts out of his memories; he secured them in a great chest decorated with dragons. Someone (monsters or people) came and stole everything, leaving him with only a few tools and his poisoned dagger, and burning him out; he retreated to a deep hole and stewed. He then tried to remake his treasures, but found his memories faded, and his craft weakened by his inability to forgive. Interestingly, Mim's own view of himself is wildly at odds with everyone else's, and with his behaviour in this very poem. He wants to believe that he was a pure artist until right before the events of the poem - but he carries a poisoned dagger, and fills his treasures with magic that drives men mad. He was never as nice as he likes to think he was. (I should note that NoME 3.VII - The Founding of Nargothrond (1969) gives a different account of Mim's early years - it has him as the chieftain of the Petty Dwarves of Narog, helping Finrod build Nargothrond and then attempting to murder him. It's not clear how this fits in with his youth by Tarn Aeluin in the poem, or with his known death 400 years after Nargothrond was finished - that would make him very old indeed for a dwarf! Perhaps the chieftain was his grandfather?) hS
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#9 | ||
King's Writer
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I have ordered the Book and read that text myself. Easy for a native German. Having some experience with the Schütz translations, I have many doubts if by retranslating we would find anything even near to the original. Schütz was not very good at rhyme. It is clear, that in the 26 lines of poetry he took many liberties and nonetheless would not even try to take up rhythm, flow or even kind of rhymes used in the original. As an example, the word 'sand' in the second line cries out 'none Tolkien!' to me. I wouldn't be surprised if reading the original we would not find the information that the cave did have a sand flour. But as that is only my personal impression, please take it only as warning.
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About Mîm's life as given in NoME: Taking aside the 400 years for a moment, I would rather say the story lines work very well together: Young Mîm wanders around in the peaceful Beleriand before Finrod founded Nargothrond. As he visits Dorthonion where Finrod's brothers ruled at this time, the two might have meet there. Finrod planning to build Nargothrond would than naturally ask a Dwarf he did know before hand for help. For how that relationship was than poisoned there are a lot of candidates: - Finrod, seeing how big a task it was, asking the Dwarves from the Ered Luin as well for help and since these dismissed the Petty-Dwarves that might be enough. - Maybe Mîm was only early involved in the planning and when it became clear that Finrods plans were made for the enlargement of the halls of Nulukkhizdīn, driving the Petty-Dwarves out of their old home the relation shifted. - Or he came late and assumed that they had found the halls of Nulukkhizdīn deserted, and only when he found out that they had driven out the Petty-Dwarves by force he tried to take revenge upon Finrod. The 400+ years are an issue, but not a big one: - On the one hand we know that at least on first generation Dwarf was very long lasting: Durin I., the Deathless. He died 'before the end of the Elder-days', which means from the context during the First Age of the sun, having outlifed all the long years of the Stars since the awakening of the Dwarves. So it might be that Tolkien saw a decline in longevity for the Dwarves and planed much longer time for the earlier generations to which Mîm might have belonged. - If we assume that Mîm was of the line of the 7 chieftains, than we are told that in these lines from time to time Dwarves were born that were so similar to the chieftains of old that they got the same name. So for example Mîm II. could have been the helper of Finrod and Mîm III. would then be the host of Tuirn later to be killed in Nargothrond. At this point we might consider anew when Mîm does utter this ‘Klage’: I find it rather forced to connect the plundering of Bar-en-Danwedh by the Orcs to the story as told in Mîm's Klage. In CoH Mîm is not sleeping on his chest of treasures and the attack of the Orcs is not a surprise for him. Thus if the Mîm of Mîm's Klage and Mîm from CoH are one and the same person, I would assume that the Mîm from CoH is a somewhat recovered version from the earlier Mîm of Mîm's Klage: In CoH he is described as poor, old, isolated and bitter against the world outside that has wronged him and his folk in many ways. When caught by Androg Mîm did even bit him, like Mîm reports of himself in his 'Klage'. As well CoH reports that the Men shot arrows at Mîm and his sons. And we learn in CoH that Mîm from time to time works in his smithy, all by himself, as we would expect from a person haunted by a back story like told in the 'Klage'. So my best guess is, that what we have in ‘Mîm’s Klage’ is a report of one of Túrin’s men of what he heard when at one day Mîm came out of his smithy (for a time, because the ‘Tink-tonk, tonk-tink! No time to think!’ suggest that he is going back to work) during a fruitless try in his craft. And the friendship that Mîm develops to Túrin might be the response to his ‘It was not always so, and it is not good that it is so now.’ from the ‘Klage’. One last point: 'Complaint' does not sound fully right as translation of german 'Klage' in this context. I would rather take 'Lament'. ('Dirge' would fit from the sense as well, but does not sound a bit like Tolkien for me.) Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2022
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Mim's Story
I recently wrote an article in Italian on Mim's Klage.
My goal was to (try to) build both an internal and external chronlogy for this text, based on the clues given in the text. Here's the english version of it: https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?c...lmu8eeT5VJGiUX Of course there's a lot of speculation and I know several other possibilities are plausible but...Let me know what you think about it. |
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#11 |
Wight
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I would like to give my opinion regarding Mîn in relation to all the information we have about him.
Regarding whether they are all the same Mîm, from the point of view of the information we have and making the verosimility relevant, I do not think that Tolkien would have thought of a different Mîm on each case. And in the case of a Petty Dwarf, a Dwarf of more than 500 years It would not seem plausible to me. A possible historical line that I propose would be (please correct me if I forget something): -An indefinite time after Nargothrond is complete in FA102, Mîm becomes the young leader of the Petty Dwarves and later attempts to assassinate Finrod (say in FA250). -He is expelled and goes to Dorthonion. -When the Beörians are given Ladros in FA410 he has to leave and goes to Amon Rûdh (who he already knew). So, when Mîm die in 502 (been very old and possibly near to his natural end) would be more or less 300-350 years old. Of course this line would be a mythical adaptation to be able to make a plausible composition of his story. In relation to the moment of the Klage, I agree with Findegil that a possible one would be after stablised the friendship between Túrin and him. Greetings |
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#12 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
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#13 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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There's two tentative bits of evidence to support it. First, Azaghâl of Belegost rules for over 200 years - the Dragon-Helm was forged for him as Lord of Belegost after Glaurung's first appearance, and he dies in the Nirnaeth, still fighting fit. Allowing for a childhood (in which he was not king) and old age (in which he couldn't have led them to battle), that gives him a minimum natural lifespan of 350 years, possibly much longer. That would support long-lived Beleriandic dwarves. Secondly, and even more tentative... the poem "The Hoard" is said to be inspired by the tales of Mim and company. The dwarf in it is described like this: But his eyes grew dim and his ears dull and the skin yellow on his old skull; through his bony claw with a pale sheen the stony jewels slipped unseen. That sounds properly ancient, not just "normal lifespan of a dwarf" ancient. If it can be applied to Mim (a big 'if'!), then he seems to have lived past his natural end. Actually, he also calls himself "old" in Mim's Klage. We still don't know when that is: Findegil makes a good point that it doesn't fit with the attack on Amon Rudh, Val Balmer suggests the expulsion from Nargothrond, and I'm now thinking it could be the Beorians arriving in Dorthonion, driving him out to the south. In any case, it seems to be quite some time before his death, so he would be very old by the time Hurin encountered him in Nargothrond. hS PS: re the English title - this thread says it's probably Tolkien's own title. EDIT: this thread discusses the source of the (German) title, in "Mimes Klage(ge)sang", from Wagner's Ring cycle. It appears (untitled) in the early part of the Siegfried libretto, in which Mime complains a lot. The way he speaks resonates strongly with Tolkien's Complaint: Zwangvolle Plage! Müh’ ohne Zweck! Heart-breaking bondage! Toil without end! hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 08-29-2023 at 04:59 AM. Reason: Wagner |
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#14 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Not necessarily; Dain II was over 250 when he died axe in hand at the siege of Erebor.
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#15 | ||
King's Writer
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Coming back to the text and it interpretation: I am not sure that the scene in the begining with:
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- If we see Mîm at the bining coming out of his hole after he was robbed of his chest, where is then the 'run over burning thorns and heather'? - in the first secne the enemies are "Unholde"/'fiends' while in the later scene they are "Menschen"/'Men'. - If it would be the same plundering, that would make 2 additional shifts in perspective necessary in the text (one is of course given, when after describing his coming forth Mîm starts to speak): One from Mîm recounting his live back to life action of him trying and failing to re-create part of his work, and the men shunning and hunting him. And another one when he recounts that it had not been so in the past and so on. Thinks become much easier when we assume that we have 2 diffrent robberies: One done in the past by Men that stole his chest. This is recounted only by Mîm in his speech. And a second that just has happend done by 'fiends' out of which he comes right at the biginning of the text. In that way we would only have in intorduction of the scene and Mîm by a narator voice and than for all the rest Mîm recapitulating his life and actual situation. Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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So yes, we have two robberies: one by Men in his youth, up by Tarn Aeluin; one by fiends (Orcs?) in his old age. Mim's journey is that at first he was hopeful and enjoyed beauty; then he became bitter and dangerous; and now, after that path has ended the same way as the first, he has chosen to try and reclaim some of his original hope and memory. It is so, so tempting to make the second robbery the fall of the House of Random. But then where is Mim's refuge, where he starts his great re-forging? It can't be Nargothrond, that's still intact! So we have to imagine yet another hidden cave, in which Mim holes up only to randomly leave it and go haunt Narog instead. hS
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#17 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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We can't say other than it was deep in a nameless forest, where Mim fostered the infant son of a dying woman, and raised him to use his father's reforged sword to kill Glaurung.... oh, wait.
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#18 | |
Pile O'Bones
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Also by re-reading both, the prose passage seems to expand on the poem main passages. Poem: - Mim is in cavern - he has already 200 years - The "brutes" live him with his life and his poisoned knife - They smoke him out his caverns - Mim tries to rebuilt the treasure he lost Prose: - Mim checks his hoard and he is clearly already old - Mim builds a check (new element) to keep things safe - Mim is smoked out of his cavern with fire (again??) - The passage of men and petty kingdoms is for sure difficult (if we imagine this tale to be set up in Middle-earth). - Mim starts to rebuild his treasure, but he lacks the creative energy (new) - He mention his poisoned knife |
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#19 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
King's Writer
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WARNING: This has become a very long post! Sorry, for that. But maybe I was during working on it somewhat in the same possessed mode as Mîm during his work.
Let's go through the text and see what we learn: Quote:
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A farther point of importance here is that what follows is in direct speech (layed by the author into the mouth of Mîm). That must not apply to all the text that follows, but for much of it, since Mîm is often addressed by ‘I’ in the rest of the text, and the style of the text in many passages, with the repeating onomatopoeic ‘tink-tonk’ or ‘tom-tom-tap’ marks it as very homogeneous and a bit in contrast to what had been written so fare. It is sad that no speech marks were used in the translation (maybe following the original text). But in the German use that is more understandable, since they would normally not been repeated at the beginning of each paragraph. Thus if all that follows is in direct speech, in the translation would have been only before the first ‘Tink-tink-tink, …’ that follows immediately and at the final End behind ‘… Keine Zeit zum Denken!’ The English use with a repeated speech mark at the beginning of each paragraph would have been very helpful, but I would here argue that H. J. Schütz, the translator would have marked the difference and incorporated a clear indication if in the original any part of what followed would have been clearly not in direct speech. Therefore, for me the reminder of the text is in Mîm’s words. Quote:
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Some remarks on the back translation: ‘kralligen Klauen’ => ‘grasping claws’: I don’t know if or how to transport back the German repetition of ‘kralligen Klauen’. ‘Kralle’ is used in German for a single talon while ‘Klaue’ means the ‘claw’ as a limb or appendage with more than on talon. Thus ‘talon embattled claws’ would possibly work, but I don’t think that was the original reading. That some repetition was in the original can be seen in the phrases just before this with the ‘verschlungen und sich hochwindend’, which both would translate to ‘twisting’. ‘Wohlan!’ => ‘Well done!’ Someone any better idea here? ‘Wohlan’ is not much used nowadays in German. The first reference that comes to mind is Schiller’s Glocke where it is used as kind of encouragement for the companions in the work to be started. But that use does not fit here entirely and even if, I have no clou how I would translate in that case. Maybe the original had a simple ‘Lo!’, but than I would have rather expected ‘Siehe!’ which would fit not badly in the German translation. Quote:
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At the end of this passage, we get a deep inside view to Mîm’s mind: ‘It was not always so,’ to which time can that refer? Mîm’s time of homeless wandering - Rather not since what we know is that he is often sharpening his knife. Mîm’s time of rest – most unlikely as he is unconscious. Mîm’s time of work – maybe, but he seems to be very obsessed with his work. So most probably his time of inspiration or before in his early youth. ‘it is not good that it is so now.’ So at least he is regretting the change. Quote:
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So what can we make out of it? At least a kind of sequence of events or periods of Mîm’s life: - Mîm’s time of inspiration in his youth: He spent some time in Dorthonion around Tarn Aeluin, was inspired by the beauty of nature and had good relationships to other beings around him. - Mîms time of work: probably it in the beginning overlapped with the time of inspiration and it lasted very long. He had at least at the end of this time a ‘deep home’. The contact to his surrounding must have died down at the end at least, due to his obsession with his work. The result were many beautiful artefacts. - Mîm’s time of possessiveness and his time of rest: He makes his treasure chest and sleeps on it. - The robbery: ‘Men/fiends’ come and smoke him out of his deep home. They robe his ore and gems and carry away his chest. They chase him away from his home. - Mîm’s time of homeless wandering: we do not know how long this lasted, but it is not just a short episode since we hear of long paths wandered and often sharping his knife. - Mîm’s time in his ‘shelter’: He must be long enough in this place to have some encounter with his neighbours and develop the toxic relationship. He tries and fails in re-creating artefacts like of old. - He is smoked out of his shelter, but we do not know, if he is driven forth from it. We only know that he utters his lament. So someone is around to hear it. But it’s not clear, who that is. Probably not the ‘they’ that smoked him out and as well not his neighbours that shot at him with arrows from afar, when he came out to see the sun. But I could well imagine that these neighbours could have smoke him out. How that combines with all the other stuff we learn in the legendarium about Mîm, is quiet another cane of worms. Respectfully Findegil |
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#20 | |
Pile O'Bones
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Thanks for the long and detailed analysis!
I agree with most points, but I still don't get this and expecially the part in bold: Quote:
To me all your points seems to indicate that the two pieces desribe the same event, but maybe I am missing something... Val |
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#21 |
King's Writer
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I would not split between prose and poem. Part of the poem and the prose are Mîm speaking to us "Mîm's speech", while the first paragraph of the poem (16 lines) is a kind of "introduction". That would be my split. And as a matter of fact everything the introduction is telling us must have happened before Mîm utters his speech.
But how long before we do not know. E.g. 'Long paths he had wandered, homeless and cold' had happened most likely a longer time before Mîm stood before his den. Nonetheless some of what the introduction is telling us must have happened very recently. Or at least the German text does strongly suggest that. Line 12 'His clouded Eyes blinked, still reddened from the smoke;' is without any question describing Mîm when he steps out of his den just in the moment before he uttered his speech. Why would you tell us of a blinking eye in an event long past? If we would not have lines 13 to 15 in between I would think that the smoke that reddened his eyes would have been from his forge-fire. But the lines 13 to 15 make clear that we see Mîm coming out because 'they had,/ at last, his passages cruelly on fire set'. Now the 'they' from line 13 finds most naturally its reference in 'the fiends' of line 9. If that is the reference, then the events described in lines 7 to 11 had as well most naturally happened recently. Taken by itself, nothing speaks against that. But then we read Mîm recount what sounds like the same event as in line 7 to 11. This offers two issues: - Mîm tells us: ‘They smoke me out like a rat, and in mocking mercy they made me run like a wild beast, through burning thorns and heather around my deep home. They laughed as I kicked the hot ash, and the wind snatched away my curses.’ This does not fit the introduction where just before he begins to utter his speech Mîm ‘came … out, sickened and choked.’ - What follows in Mîm’s speech after he is smoked out, is still a long story: he has dealings with his neighbours, he tries and fails to re-create some artefacts. That does as well not fit the introduction where Mîm comes out, with reddened eyes from the smoke and still sickened and choking and immediately speaks to us. I see 3 possible ways out of this dilemma: 1) The introduction line 7 to 15 and Mîm’s speech do not refer to the same events. This would for the introduction work very well. Since it then tells us things in the right sequence: Mîm’s time of homeless wandering – the ‘fiends’ robbing him and setting his passages on fire – he comes out and speaks. But this seems unlikely since the description especially of the robbery is very similar. 2) Introduction line 7 to 11 refer to the same event as Mîm in his speech, but introduction line 12 to 15 refer to some other independent event that happened recently. In that case we still have some similarities in the two smoking outs but as well enough differences. Issues with this solution are the reference for the ‘they’ in line 13 becomes unclear and the introduction becomes unusual in the order of telling things. First the homeless wandering, then the earlier robbery of his artefacts and then the most recent burning of the passages of Mîm’s den. 3) H. J. Schütz did use a bit too much poetical liberty in the lines 12 to 16 of the introduction. That Schütz was not the most skilled translator when it comes to rhymes is attested in his translation of the two volumes of the Lost Tales: he made line by line translations of the poems in these bocks but didn’t use a single rhyme. That he struggled as well with Mîms Klage seems clear from some unusual rhyming couples and sentences ordered strangely. Some such cases concern us here: In line 10 and 11 the ordering of the sentence is very unusual. The line break between ‘und eine lange Klinge’ and ‘in einer Scheide unterm zerfetzen Mantel’ is acceptable but not very good. He needs it for the end rhyme ‘Dinge’ - ‘Klinge’. But then the ‘, vergiftet auch.’ Is a very unusual addon to the sentence. I would even call it strange. Together with the line break before, it disturbs the reading flow badly and leads to a kind of staccato with in this sentence. Schütz does use it for the rhyming couple ‘auch’ – ‘Rauch’ in lines 11 and 12. The next couple ‘zuletzt’ – ‘gesetzt’ is as well a bit suspicious. ‘zuletzt’, ‘at last’, is superfluous. It looks like Schütz introduced it to get a rhyme with ‘in Brand gesetzt’. And the last couple ‘Erbrechen’ – ‘sprechen’ is forced. ‘fast am Erbrechen.’ in line 15 is really bad German. Especially taking the time into account, when Schütz made this translation. Today such a construction with a substantive and the use of ‘am’ to describe what someone does (or nearly does in this case) is common in some German slangs. But I would still call it a sign of a degenerative speech, much more so 1986-7. So what do I make out of this? Well, maybe Schütz changed the order of the lines here to get any rhyme going at all in his translation, we don’t know. But I could at least imaging that the clear impression from the German text that lines 12 and 15 must refer to recent events was not in the original English text. That would explain as well why we have in line 4 ‘One evening Mîm stood before his den’, while later in line 15 we have ‘and thus came he out’: If lines 5 to 15 all tell us some back ground about Mîm’s past, then he does in line 15 come out of his burning ‘deep home’ after the robbery of his artefacts and not out of his ‘den’ right before he uttered his speech. As nice as solution 3) is, we do not have much evidence for it. And if it is true, it would make the back translation extremely difficult. Respectfully Findegil |
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#22 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,311
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Oh, just noticed this
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 09-14-2023 at 04:22 PM. |
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#23 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 16
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I think I start to understand what you mean, but for me the most "simple" reading is as follows:
- Poem lines 1-6: Mim is 200 years old, he leaves is cave and starts to think about the past. - Poem lines 7-15: Past event are described vividly: Mim is driven out by fire from his tunnel (a former den) - Poem lines 16-26: Back in the present (the sand connects the lines): he starts his complaint... he is in a haste to rebuild his treasure. - Prose §1 [Alle Dinge, die meine....viel ubrig von ihm.]: Mim speaks about the past and the treasures he produced. - Prose §2 [So sann ich...verwehter Jahre.]: Still in the past, Mim builds a chest for his treasures - Prose §3 [Schlief ich...an öden Orten.]: Same event as in the poem 7-15; Mim is smoked out of his cave and left with a few tools and a poisoned blade - Prose §4&&5 [So nahmen sie...Tranen zerspellt + Was früher ich...Zeit zum Denken!]: A link between past and present. Mim was left bitter from the robbery and he has lost the inspiration to create. So in the poem we have [Present] + [Past] + [Present] and in the prose fragment [Past] + [Present] In my interpretation sentences like "His clouded Eyes blinked, still reddened from the smoke" are there to trasmit the urgency of the action and not the fact poem lines 7-15 are immediately after 16-26. On the other hand the whole discussion leads me to re-evaluate the chronology I have proposed in the pdf I shared some time ago: he was not 200 years old when driven out of his caves (Nulukkizdîn?) --> he was 200 years when he rethinks about the past in his new den (Sharbund?). Last edited by Val Balmer; 09-14-2023 at 03:07 PM. |
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#24 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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You might have expected it: I disagree (in parts) with your “simple” reading.
- Poem lines 1 – 6: Agreed. It might not be very important, but the text does not state that he leaves the cave. He stands before it, so he could have arrived there coming from some other place just in that moment. - Poem lines 7 – 15: Possible, but line 12 reads really much like referring to the present in German. The construction with the German ‘noch’ means a temporary state soon to be changed. The correct construction for past time reference would be ‘waren noch’, so some liberty must be granted here. But together with blinking eyes, that are of no significance in a broad recapturing of the past as we have it in the lines before, these cries ‘present!’ to me. And there is a strong connection between line 15 ‘erstickt und fast am Erbrechen’ und line 16 ‘Mîm spie in den Sand’. As said in my last post, Schütz might have changed some line to get the rhyme going, and here he needed maybe ‘erbrechen’ – ‘sprechen’, but we don’t know and as it stands, there is a strong suggestion that Mîm spit into the sand, because he nearly vomited from the chocking smoke recently experienced. (I suspect that line 15 might have been internally turned for the ‘erbrechen’ – ‘sprechen’ rhyme, and that what Schütz translated ‘und so kam er heraus’ was in the original English text some thing like *thus he escaped*. Which would exchange the strong connection we have to a much weaker. A farther possibility would be, that the blinking eyes belong rather here and are a sign for the jump back into present. But then the reddened eyes from the smoke are a bit lost, and I don’t think they are an addition of Schütz – why should he add ‘Rauch’ when he did not find any better rhyme than ‘auch’ in that rather strange construction of a sentence?) - Poem lines 16 – 26: I strongly disagree! Even so it is a correct reading that Mîm is obsessed with the work, in the description of the artefacts even in the German translation the beauty shines through that does fit to Mîm’s earlier work, not the ‘Spuk’ of his later tries. And that he was obsessed even in his earlier work is confirmed in Prose §1. - Prose §1: Agreed. - Prose §2: Agreed. (I will not change your numbering, but there is a paragraph break between ‘… das die Winde verwüstet hatten.’ and ‘Klapp-klipp-ratsch! …’) - Prose §3: I agree that we have a very strong similarity between the Event described here and Poem lines 7 – 11, so that these are most likely the same event. But I still have some doubts about Poem lines 12 – 15 as discussed above, even so I see the similarities in these parts as well. - Prose §4&§5: I agree, more or less. But the paragraph break is not between ‘… Tränen zerspellt.’ and ‘Was früher ich …’. It is between ‘… selbst wenn sie davon nichts ahnen.’ and ‘Nun aber bin ich alt und verbittert …’. This makes a lot of sense since that is were we change from the past (recounting the effect of the treasure on the robbers) to the present (Mîm in his old age). By the way: I (now) have read your article and find it alighting. Specially the outer chronology is use full. But I hesitate about your calculation of Mîm’s age. The reference to him being 200 years old in line 6 comes after the time of Mîm’s homeless wandering is mentioned. And from the inner logic of what else is told in Mîms Klage that time should come after he was robbed of his treasure and smoked out of his ‘deep home’. Your combining of Mîm being robbed and smoked out of his deep home with the building of Nargothrond by Finrod is tempting, but how could he cooperate at first if his ‘deep home’ from Mîms Klage was one of the caves of Narog? Was he willing to share it with the Elves? In addition I think Prose §5 ‘… so wie er einst glänzte am Tarn Aeluin, als ich jung war und zum ersten Mal spürte, wie geschickt meine Finger waren.’ could mean that Mîm’s ‘deep home’ in which he created his treasure was near Tarn Aeluin. If you like, here is my very much fan-fictional take on Mîm’s life: - As a young Petty-Dwarf he lived in a ‘deep home’ near Tarn Aeluin. I suppose with some companions, since as obsessed as he is with his work, he would need them for survival. Anyhow it would be unusual for the leader of the Petty-Dwarves (what Mîm is according to The Founding of Nargothrond from NoME) to live alone. So I assume all Petty-Dwarves lived with him at that time. - As that area was or came under the control of Finrod, Mîm build a good relationship with him. - In Beren and Lúthien Christopher Tolkien refers to a note of his father stating that the Nauglamír was original made by the Dwarves for Finrod. So we let Mîm be the artist to fashion it and give it him during their time of good relationship, maybe in exchange for the protection that the siege of the Elves offered for the Petty-Dwarves of eastern Dorthonion. - Now Finrod plans to build Nargothrond. He approaches Mîm for help. Mîm agrees and helps in the planning, since he thinks the Petty-Dwarves have no longer a need for the Caves of Narog. - Now Tarn Aeluin is in the east of Dorthonion, which might have been a contested territory, since Celegrom and Curufin hold the neighbouring Aglon Pass. And we know that they had fortresses on both sides of the Pass. We also know they despised the aboriginal inhabitants, even if they were of the same race (e.g. Eöl). So Curufin and Celegrom are the attackers that rob Mîm’s treasure and smoke him out of his ‘deep home’ near Tarn Aeluin, killing many of his companions, thus eliminating the Petty-Dwarf colony of Dorthonion and taking Mîm’s treasure as their own. - What follows is Mîm’s homeless wandering. Now he has a grudge against Elves in general and Finrod in special: Mîm had paid Finrod for protecting him and his people, but Finrod had failed to do so. He send his people back to the Caves of Narog and goes on his failed mission to kill Finrod either somewhere in Dorthonion or in Minas Tirth. Mîm’s flight from the place of that failed assassination is still part of his homeless wandering of long paths. - After the failed assassination of Mîm, Finrod employs the Dwarves of Ered Luin and the begins the actual building of Nargothrond. The Petty-Dwarves that they encounter in the Caves of Narog, show their hostility and are driven out by the Ered Luin Dwarves. - Now Mîm and the Petty-Dwarves driven out of the Caves of Narog meet at Amon Rudh, which seems to be a kind of first settlement of the Petty-Dwarves in Beleriand (therefore named rather a shelter and a den, than a home). But as the population is sharply diminished by the raid on the ‘deep home’ in Dorthonion and the driving out from Nargothrond it farther dwindles (probably by dying of old age, hunger, …) until only Mîm and his two sons are left. - After Dagor Bargolach Curufin and Celegorm join Finrod in Nargothrond. For their actions in Nargothrond against Finrod’s leadership they employ the artefacts of Mîm. Thus ‘they battered them for petty kingdoms and false friendships’. Cumulating in their betrayal of Finrod when they learn of his captivity, thus they ‘darkened the gold with blood of their kin.’ - When Celegorm and Curufin are driven forth from Nargothrond most of the treasure is left behind. - Mîm is captured by Túrins Band and Khîm is slain by the arrow of Androg. Grudgingly Mîm allows them to live on Amon Rudh, when Túrin promises: ‘if ever I come to any wealth, I will pay you a ransom of heavy gold for your son’. - If line 7-15 of Mîms Klage refer all to the past, then Mîm doth utter his lament sometimes early during Túrin’s stay in Amon Rudh. The friendship he builds to Túrin is most likely the result of his uttering of ‘it is not good that it is so now’. - Beleg comes to Amon Rudh and Mîm’s hope for a friendship with Túrin is stalled. - Mîm betrays Túrin and his band. - Mîm tries to kill Beleg, but flies from Androg. - Túrin comes to Nargothrond and raises to a kind of leader there. From Mîm’s perspective one could say that he had come to some wealth and he (naturally) fails to give Mîm the ransom he promised for the death of Khîm. - Glaurung now occupies Nargothrond and the hoard in which beside the Nauglamîr are many other artefacts of Mîm battered out or left behind by Celegrom and Curufin. - After Glaurungs departure and death by the hand of Túrin, Mîm comes to Nargothrond. He takes possession of the halls that where of Petty-Dwarf origin any how and he claims the treasure on several grounds: the Nauglamîr he claims back as Finrod failed in protecting him and his people, the other Artefacts of his treasure as stolen from him, part of the gold as ransom for Khîm having become available by the dead of Túrin how promised it, part as ransom for his peopled killed by the Ered Luin Dwarves on behalf of Finrod. Thus he can say to Húrin: ‘by many a dark spell have I bound it to myself’. - When Húrin comes to Nargothrond Mîm is killed, but curses the hoard (farther) with his dying breath. - Húrin’s band brings the hoard to Menegroth. When after Húrins departure they try to claim the hoard for themselves, they are killed by the Elves. - Thingol employs the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost to fashion the unwrought gold and silver and to join the Nauglamír with the Silmaril. - When the dwarves are done with that work Thingol shortens his promised payment to have enough silver for a double throne he fancied. The Dwarves leave Menegroth unpaid an embittered. - Ibun, the second son of Mîm, brings the news of Mîm’s death to Belegost. He joins the invasion force of the Dwarves and takes over the role of Ufedhin in the conversation with Melian and in the failed double assassination of Naugladur. And then he ‘fled gasping from that place, for the long fingers of the Indrafang had well-nigh choked him … and little but a tortured heart got he from the Gold of’ his father. Well, wouldn’t that be a tale worth the telling? Respectfully Findegil |
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#25 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,862
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But Findegil, above, has suggested that they could be Celegorm and Curufin. I think this might fit really well, if we allow Mim a little metaphor, and if we suppose that the takeover of Nargothrond was obtained in part by paying off the Nargothrondrim with Mim's gold. Cel'n'Cur traded the gold for Nargothrond (built by Mim's people, so literally a petty kingdom ![]() hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#26 | |||
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Aug 2022
Posts: 16
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It is also possible that this part is still in the past, but we loose the connection with the "Sand" of the first line (an important word as linked with rime). On the other hand, in my interpretation at least, the piece would become: Poem: [Present] + [Past] | Prose: [Past] + [Present]...kind of simmetrical... Quote:
One possibility I discarded when I checked that was that the people of Beor had chased the petty dwarves from Tarn Aeluin. I need to check again the chronology to see if, with the new hypotheses, that could be a fit... I like this story! I am sure a great fan fiction might come of it... |
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