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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the work The New Shadow.
This work uses the text of The New Shadow given in HoME 12 as its base text. Because it is so short, and the final text was given in full, there is very little editing to do to update it for reading. The markings are: NS-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
NS-SL-02: This version was much longer and more detailed, so I thought we should give it instead. NS-SL-03: This was a simple grammatical change needed to keep the flow. This is the last draft for the entirety of Volume II, as well as for the continuous narrative history of Arda. It was very very straightforward to make a draft of it, and my gut tells me it was too easy, so I am sure Fin will have more comments about the story than I did. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-24-2018 at 05:28 PM. |
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#2 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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NS-SL-02: I agree to this edit, but I would keep one bit form the original text:
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Findegil |
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#3 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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NS-SL-02.5: Agreed.
As for the final paragraph, I agree that we should include it, but I would edit it differently: Quote:
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#4 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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NS-SL-07: Okay ‘Satanistic’ might not be good, but I would rather look for Letter 338 for a replacement. Anyhow we should give as well the information that this story would mark the end of Eldarions regin:
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Original draft: ‘less than one hundered and twenty years since the fall of the Dark Tower’ => FA 108 => 8 years after Elessars Death Mansuscript A and B: ‘’Nearly one hundered and ten years had passed since the fall of the Dark Tower’ => FA 118 => 18 years after Elessars Death Letter 256 from 1964: ‘about 100 years after the Downfall‘ => FA 98 => 2 years before Elessars death Typoasscipt C1 is the same as A & B. => FA 118 => 2 years before Elessars Death Typosscript C2: ‘One hundred and five years had passed since the fall of the Dark Tower’ => FA 103 => 17 years before Elessars Death Letter 338 from 1972: ‘about 100 years after the death of Aragorn’ => FA 220 Up to the second edition of the LotR published in 1966 Aragorns death was in FA 100, then it was changed FA 120, That means we have to discard FA 98 and FA 103 as being to early since in both circumstances Elessar would still be alive. If we calculate rather with the death of Aragorn, then the Fall of Barad-dûr I would go with the 18 years and would place the conversation between Borlas and Saelon in FA 138. Borlas would then be about 148 years old. Which I find a good age for a retired Númenorean. And when we take Letter 338 serious that Eldarion regin up to FA 220, we would have a story line covering about 82 years. Long, but not impossible I think. But I think all that is too much specific and to introduce it would take to much liberty with the text. So I suppose we take an unspecific ‘Many years’ instead of any number. Respectfully Findegil |
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#5 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Agreed to both, and nice layout of all the textual difficulties.
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#6 | |||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I agree with the ambiguous "Many years" instead of specifically dating the text, since Tolkien never seemed to come to a satisfactory date which makes sense. I only have a few comments:
1) I am currently taking "Intro to Anglo Saxon" from Signum University, so grammar has been on the brain lately. NS-SL-02.5 and NS-SL-03 do not form a complete sentence with subject and predicate; instead, it has a subject and then several dependent clauses. Quote:
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#7 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) I agree to remove the but, but I removed that later sentence because the same info is repeated in the return to the original text later on:
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2) I agree this works nicely here. |
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#8 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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1) Ahh, got it, I missed the fact that it was repeated.
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#9 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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1) I don’t think that the info is quiet the same, so I would let that last sentence stand as gandalf85 edited it.
2) Agreed. But I would like to a bit more, found in a quiet different place: Quote:
Findegil |
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#10 | |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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I like the addition of the bit about Gandalf. If my username doesn't give it away, he's my favorite character from any work of fiction, so I'm absolutely on board with ending the entire mythology with a discussion of Gandalf. But I think Fin's placement of it breaks the flow of the discussion about the ending of the New Shadow. I would place it after the discussion, like so:
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#11 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I agree with gandalf's placement much more. it flows better.
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#12 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay, I agree to the placement. My placement was based only on the one important statement that I wanted to include, that there was again a fraction of the people calle “Faithful”. And that would have fit probabaly better before the end of Eldarions regin is mentioned. But it is okay at the end as well, since I agree that the part about Gandalf feels out of sequence at the earlier placement.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#13 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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I have severe reservations about the 200+ year old Borlas, and I think this thread is giving way too much weight to the statement of Borlas' presence at the time of the fall of Barad-dur.
Not only is there no indication that Borlas or Beregond were of "pure" Numenorean ancestry, but even if they were, it would still make Borlas older than Aragorn! And Aragorn's longevity was in itself an exception to the rule (as Findegil has already mentioned), given that in Aragorn a bit of old Dunadan majesty was restored. So why would some (frankly) random Gondorian have a lifespan longer than Aragorn (or even Eldarion)? Nothing about this makes a lick of sense - not to mention that in the 1972 letter in which the c. FO 220 date appears, nothing whatsoever is said about Borlas or any character in the story for that matter. Which makes me think that we should remove the statement about Borlas being Beregond's son, as well as the mention of Borlas being alive during the fall of Barad-dur. Perhaps we could say that he was a descendant of Beregond? He could (and should) still be very old - old enough to at least be a child during the final years of Aragorn's reign.
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Last edited by Arvegil145; 09-04-2023 at 04:21 AM. |
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#14 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Also, what do you think about the possible inclusion of a c. 2,700 year Fourth Age?
I posted this in another forum, but here it is again: Quote:
So, if we take a normal human 'generation' to mean something like, say, 25 years - that would equate to c. 2,500 years. And if we take Eldarion's death to be c. FO 200, that means that the Fourth Age lasted for about 2,700 years - which checks out with Tolkien's hastening Ages.
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#15 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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See my posting from 07-25-2018: Our working assuomptiun was that Borlas is 148 years old when he speaks to Saelon in FA 138. Thus our interpretation of the text was an intro that links it back to LotR many years before the 'real action' would start. Some what like The Long expected Party in LotR, but with a much longer time gap to come.
About the 2,700 year Fourth Age: we actually used the qoute you provided from TY 4 in the chapter The End of the Third Age. But clearly the project will not give the assumption that these means the Fourth Age was 2,700 years long. At least not here. And I think even in the proposed 'Tale of the Years'-like part, one of the biggest issues will be such caclulations based un assumptions. In this special case you assume a generation would in average last 25 years. But we know that Tolkien was more familiar with the tarditional 30 years per generation, and that at least the first view generations would be longlasting Númenoreans. With such uncertainties fixing any date would mean to create a fact in Middle-earth. And that is exactly the one thing this project tries to avoid. Respectfully Findegil |
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#16 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Not only that, but do we actually have any strong evidence that your idea of a 'prologue Borlas' was ever Tolkien's intention? IMO, the most probable interpretation of the 1972 letter was Tolkien misremembering what he wrote more than 15 years prior to his writing the letter, and conflated 'c. 100 years after the fall of Barad-dur' with 'c. 100 years after Aragorn's death'. However, IF we're going to keep the far later date of FoA 220 (as per the above letter), the most logical and painless choice would be to simply change 'Borlas, son of Beregond' to 'Borlas, a descendant of Beregond' - and remove any reference to Borlas being alive during the end of the Third Age, as stated in my previous reply. 2) As to the 'c. 2,700 long Fourth Age': I agree - it's too speculative, especially since we already have the 'hundred generations of Men after Eldarion' included in the 'End of the Third Age' text. No need to make explicit what can (and should) be up to the reader's interpretation. I would like to point out one thing, though - the '30 years per generation' doesn't work, since that would make the Fourth Age last c. 3,200 years (i.e. it would be longer than the Third Age); and since Tolkien decided that each successive Age should be shorter (as was already evident before: First Age lasted c. 4,900 years, the Second lasted 3,441 years, and the Third lasted 3,021 years), I still think the c. 2,700 years is the most likely duration. But that's neither here nor there, and should belong to some other forum discussions.
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#17 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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1) Borlas: I don't think it is that simple, as mentioned before. Borlas memory of the old Evil is a part of the story that can't be taken away. Without it the story line as far as it goes at all falls apart, for me at least.
Anyhow, who is to say that it is a greater change to interprete the Borlas-Saelon-discussion as kind of prelude than to change Borals from a son of Beregond, who has memories of the end of the Third Age and War of the Ring, to a descendant of Beregond that aquiered that knowledge of the old Evil by what ever other means? I would even be willing to put the story to an even earlier time by changing the allusion to the death of Aragorn in the begining just to keep Beregond able to 'remember the Evil of old'. In addition I would like to add that this thought of Borals - 'Perhaps I have been preserved so long for this purpose: that one should still live, hale in mind, who remembers what went before the Great Peace. Scent has a long memory. I think I could still smell the old Evil, and know it for what it is.' - confirms that he is old even for an Gondorian of Numenorian blood of his time. Respevtfully Findegil |
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