Ambarkanta - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

ArcusCalion · 10-05-2017, 12:16 PM

While we wait for Findegil to finish his draft for the Of the Flight of the Noldor chapter, I decided to post some drafts for Volume III, since Fidegil has as better idea of the draft structure of Volume II.

This is the first draft of the work Ambarkanta.

Our basis text is that of "The Ambarkanta" given in HoME V. Wherever the text is different from HoME V, this is marked by an editing mark.

The markings are:
Amb-xx for tracking any and all changes.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{example} = text that should be deleted
[example] = normalised text, normally only used for general changes
<source example> = additions with source information
...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source.

Quote:

Amb-01 {Ambarcanta}[Ambarcanta?]

Of the Fashion of the World

Rúmil

Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.
Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial addition and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya ......flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air ...... , but Ilmen is breathed by the {Gods}[Valar], and purified by the passage of the luminaries; for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial addition newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.
From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save' for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya ..... and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo ..... Mountains of Valinor it is evening.
But days are otherwise in Valinor ...... mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.
The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].
The Middle-earth lies ..... and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of the World.
Now it is said that the Valar coming .... hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, ..... As is told they desired to make lamps, Amb-07 {and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}[they] set up these great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while.
Amb-08 But the pillars were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the melting of the ice made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. ....... but these straits are filled with ice.
For their further protection the Valar ..... from the shores of Midd1e-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land ..... But {Melko}[Melkor] fortified the North and built there the Northern Towers, which are also called the Iron Mountains, and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle ...... beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].
But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar], when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko’s}[Melkor’s] stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of Ringil (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.
And the Earth was again ...... lands and waters of old has perished.

Amb-01: This is a debatable change, but I changed k > c per Tolkien's 3rd Age Quenya rules, as this is Bilbo's translations.
Amb-02: This passage was written when the concept of "Ea" did not exist. Arda was simply globed amid the Void, and thus the Door of Night and the Walls of the World were visible from Valinor. Tolkien never successfully and completely revised his works to fit with the "Ea" conception, and so Nienna's house "looks outward from the walls of the world" and the stars follow the moon into the chasm of Ilmen, etc. However, since we are using the Flat Earth version, the Ambarkanta is an important document, much like the Valaquenta, and useful to explain the layout of the complex cosmology. We could simply update the Ilurambar >Earambar and leave it, bc as I seeit, the only lore difficulty here with the wording is the Door of Night. Where is this located? does it open onto Ea? or Kuma?
Amb-03: I know this is a risky addition, but my reasoning is that Ekkaia is only used to denote the sea, whereas Vaiya is used to denote the atmospheric sphere of air. THis can be debated, however.
Amb-04: This is an addition because in the old conception, there was no Ea, and the two starmakings of Varda were less distinct in concept.
Amb-05: In the later conception, the Valar and Maiar were bound within Ea, not Arda, and so Manwe's ability to go so high up was unique, but this is no longer the case.
Amb-06: This entire paragraph is based on the old conception of the Door of Night and the Walls of the World: what does the door open onto? In MT, Tolkien notes that Melkor was put out into the space of Ea, which the Numenoreans and even the Elves often confused with the Void about Ea. Do we accept this as an internal universe error? or update it somehow to fit the later idea?
Amb-07: This concept was a brief idea that Melkor made the lamps out of ice, but this was rejected, and we must update this.
Amb-08: The formation of the inland seas makes sense when the laps were ice, but now it seems odd. I am unsure how to change this to fit the later idea.
Amb-09: This may not be required, but since it is talking about the formation of the major mountain ranges of the world, the Hithaeglir were not in the old conception, but had they been , they would certainly have been mentioned. I therefore added the LQ description of their making.
Amb-10: This is per the change of the names of the lamps, but not the seas.
Amb-11: same as 10.

gondowe · 11-19-2017, 09:00 AM

When I saw that your draft included the Ambarkanta as a single chapter, I thought for a time if it was possible. I decided not to include in spite of its importance because it was very problematic to make coherent with the rest. I had included some parts within the whole text.
Now rethinking, I offer an edited version. If we want include as a text per se, this is my proposal.
Sorry for the style of work. Of course, the editorial additions can be improved. I used the text of your draft.

Ambacanta

Composed byRúmil of Tirion in the Elder Days. Written here after the Tale Pengolodh the Wise told to the Wise of Númenor
Of the Fashion of the World
Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.1now, save by the Door of Night.
Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. Above the Earth lies the Air, which is called Vista, and sustains birds and clouds. Therefore, it is called above Fanyamar, or Cloudhome; and below Aiwenórë or Bird-land. But this air lies only upon Middle-earth and the Inner Seas, and its proper bounds are the Mountains of Valinor in the West and the Walls of the Sun in the East. Therefore, clouds come seldom in Valinor, and the mortal birds pass not beyond the peaks of its mountains. But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of the World, Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. Ilmen lies above Vista, and is not great in depth, but is deepest in the West and East, and least in the North and South. In Valinor the air is Ilmen, but Vista flows in at times especially in Elvenhome, part of which is at the eastern feet of the Mountains; and if Valinor m darkened and this air is not cleansed by the light of the Blessed Realm, it takes the form of shadows and grey mists. But Ilmen and Vista will mingle being of like nature, but Ilmen is breathed by the {Gods}[Valar], and purified by the passage of the luminaries; for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.

From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save' for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. From Vista one may descend upon the Earth. From Ilmen one may descend into Valinor. Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South. The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of the World. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, and by this way one may come from Ilmen above the earth to the lower regions, and to the Earthroots, and the caves and grottoes that are at the foundations of the lands and seas. There is Ulmo’s abiding-place. Thence are derived the waters of Middle-earth. For these waters are compounded of Ilmen and Vaiya and Ambar (which is Earth), since Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth. And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo, and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, and there the Moon often wanders and is not seen from Middle-earth. But the Sun does not tarry there. She passes under the earth in haste, lest night be prolonged and evil strengthened; and she is drawn through the nether Vaiya by the servants of Ulmo, and it is warmed and filled with life. Thus days are measured by the courses of the Sun, which sails from East to West through the lower Ilmen, blotting out the stars; and she passes over the midst of Middle-earth and halts not, and she bends her course northward or southward, not waywardly but in due procession and season. And when she rises above the Walls of the Sun it is Dawn, and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening.

But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. For there the time of greatest light is Evening. Then the Sun comes down and rests for a while in the Blessed Land, lying upon the bosom of Vaiya. And when she sinks into Vaiya it is made hot and glows with rose-colored fire, and this for a long while illumines that land. But as she passes toward the East the glow fades, and Valinor is robbed of light, and is lit only with stars; and the {Gods}[Valar] mourn then most for the death of Laurelin. At dawn the dark is deep in Valinor, and the shadows of their mountains lie heavy on the mansions of the Gods. But the Moon does not tarry in Valinor, and passeth swiftly o’er it to plunge in the chasm of Ilmen, [Footnote to the text: Ilmen-assa] for he pursues ever after the Sun, and overtakes her seldom, and then is consumed and darkened in her flame. But it happens at times that he comes above Valinor ere the Sun has left it, and then he descends and meets his beloved, and Valinor is filled with mingled light as of silver and gold; and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä{without form or time}. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world from the confines of the upper Vaiya to the confines of the nether. Of old its fashion was thus. It was highest in the middle, and fell away on either side into vast valleys, but rose again in the East and West and again fell away to the chasm at its edges. And the two valleys were filled with the primeval water, and the shores of these ancient seas were in the West the western highlands and the edge of the great land, and in the East the eastern highlands and the edge of the great land upon the other side. But at the North and South it did not fall away, and one could go by land from the uttermost South and the chasm of Ilmen to the uttermost North and the chasm of Ilmen. The ancient seas lay therefore, in troughs, and their waters spilled not to the East or to the West; but they had no shores either at the North or at the South, and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of the World.

Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07 {But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}[they] set up {these} great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1 (Moved from above) But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World.

Amb-08 But the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the melting of the ice} were Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. Then the Valar removed into the West and forsook the island; and upon the highland at the western side of the West Sea they piled great mountains, and behind them made the land of Valinor. But the mountains of Valinor curve backward, and Valinor is broadest in the middle of Earth, where the mountains march beside the sea; and at the north and south the mountains come even to the chasm. There are those two regions of the Western Land which are not of Middle-earth and are yet outside the mountains: they are dark and empty. That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.

For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, so that it was bended, and the great sea of the West is very wide in the middle, the widest of all waters of the Earth. The shape of the Earth in the East was much like that in the West, save for the narrowing of the Eastern Sea, and the thrusting of the land thither. And beyond the Eastern Sea lies the Eastern Land, of which we know little, and call it the Land of the Sun; and it has mountains, less great than those of Valinor, yet very great, which are the Walls of the Sun. By reason of the falling of the land these mountains Amb-08.2{cannot} could not be descried, save by highflying birds, across the seas which divide them from the shores of Midd1e-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, two in the Northland, and two in the Southland; and those in the North were the Blue Mountains in the West side, and the Red Mountains in the East side; and in the South were the Grey Mountains and the Yellow. But {Melko}[Melkor] fortified the North and built there the Northern Towers, which are also called the Iron Mountains, and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, for a wind blew strongly there coming from the East before the Sun; and Hildórien the land where Men first awoke lay between these mountains and the Eastern Sea. But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].

But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas. And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages.'
But the greatest. change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished.

Amb-02.1now. There are many problems in the cosmogony left by the professor. This is a humble way of fix them. Why Melkor could pass above the Walls is they are impenetrable? In my opinion we can add “now” because In the beginning of time could be passed, and after could not (except by the Door of Night)
Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä {without form or time}. As in the beginning of OVatTT. The Void is another matter unexplained. I consider two types of Void that must be explained (in my case in the list of names) The Void out of Eä, and the Void of Eä as the Outer Space out of Arda. But is a matter very difficult even for C. Tolkien. The same explanation would be for the name Eärambar.
Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] Because is told Vingilot was set there before the War of wrath.
Amb-07 and 7.1 per order of history.
Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult per update history.
Amb-08.2{cannot} could not Because is told is akallabeth that the Númenóreans saw the Gates of Morning from their ships. The Gates of Morning is supposed that were abandoned but was included in the last version of Akallabeth. They must be explained perhaps as an abstraction of the rising Sun? this is how I explained in my list of names.
Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} it was not the first battle.
Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal this is very daring but is the only way I think can we maintain the south inland sea. The Inland Seas could be formed by the tumult and not only with the ice of the ancient pillars (in my opinion).
Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, I think is better.
Greetings

ArcusCalion · 02-11-2019, 09:10 PM

Giving this thread a bump so it's easier to find.

Findegil · 02-14-2019, 04:15 PM

I am not so sure that this chapter is really easy. We have to solve the cosmological riddles that Tolkien left us, to get it done. So let us see what we can do.

For me gondowe’s addition of “now” does not help. In all version of the Legendarium the Ainur after they entered into Eä were bound to stay within until the end. Thus Eärambar must be unpassable (probably until the Valar build the Door of Night). Which means that the flight of Melkor after Tulkas came to the help of the Valar can only be out of Arda not out of Eä. Since we are dealing with a flat earth version, we have to carefull with what we use from MT, But the following sentences makes much sens:

Quote:

But as is elsewhere written Melkor was at that time defeated with the aid of Tulkas (who was not among those who began the building of Eä) and driven out again into the Void that lay about Arda.

But if we follow the diagrams to the stroke, where is than the space for Melkors abiding after his flight?

Quote:

The Stars, therefore, in general will be other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene for the main drama of the conflict of Melkor with Ilúvatar, and the Children of Eru. Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil.
Varda, therefore, as one of the great Valar of Arda, cannot be said to have 'kindled' the stars, as an original subcreative act – not at least the stars in general. … It was after the First Battle[ in which Tulkas drove Melkor out of Arda] that Varda set certain stars as ominous signs for the dwellers in Arda to see.

Even Tolkien wrote this when he was re-creating his legendarium as round earth version, we might take this by necessity. How would we imaginge the catalysem at the Fall of Númenor, that clearly should lead to the real well know cosmos, if before that Eä would be exactly as drawn in diagram I and II?
So what? Either:
A) What ‘Ambarcanta’ and the diagrams describe is only Arda, or
B) Ilmen and Vaiya must be much greater then described, or
C) both.
Any how some points must be changed:
- The Ice north and south can for sure not reach out to the Wall of night.
- Vista cannot be a barrier for the Ainur. Since other wise how could Melkor leave the area described?
- The chasm of Ilmen is difficult any how, as we have the later Quenta telling us on the one hand that at the west side of Valinor is a silent shore and that the chasm is beyond Ekkaia. On the other hand we have in the Ambrakanta:

Quote:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas.

I have for the moment no conclusion for this issue.
- I agree with gondowe that the lakes can be brought into being by the fall of the pillars of the Lamps even so they were in our version most probably not made of ice.

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 02-14-2019, 09:22 PM

One general question before getting into specifics. Have we considered including some of Tolkien's maps into the text? This chapter in particular is very hard to follow without the maps published in HoME IV.

This chapter is indeed rather tricky. It seems there are two extreme approaches: try to make everything completely consistent or allow contradictions (which would mostly be due to the limited knowledge of the original authors -- as Arcus mentioned, Tolkien himself expressed this idea in Myths Transformed). I think we should try to take a middle approach: make the text consistent when it is clear what Tolkien's later conception is and the change to the text is minor. We should avoiding doing major violence to the text.

I agree that Gondowe's "now" does not help. If anything, it just adds more questions: what exactly changed? Melkor escaping out of Arda and not out of Ea makes the most sense. But it raises the question of what the Walls of the World/Walls of Night enclose: Arda or all of Ea? I have not gotten to reviewing the main text of the Silmarillion yet: in our text does Melkor return "over the Walls of the Night" in our text as it is in the published Silmarillion? According to the encyclopedia of Arda, Christopher offers the suggestion of there being two walls in HoME 10 (I cannot find the passage it is referring to, I will continue looking): http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/w/wallsoftheworld.html. If we keep the fact that Melkor returned to Arda "over the Walls of the Night," the idea of two walls is the only thing that makes sense. When the Door of Night is created and Melkor is expelled, he is sent outside of the outer walls which enclose Ea. I don't think it's a good idea to try to change the text to reflect the idea of two sets of walls; instead, we should leave the text as is and chalk it up to the in-universe author having imperfect knowledge.

Other specific points:

I agree with Gondowe and Fin that the fall of the lamps is what causes the creation of the lakes.

Gondowe brought up the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth. The idea of these gates seem like they would cause problems with the idea that the only way out of the Walls of the World is through the Door of Night. I don't know whether we should simply keep the "Gates of Morning" in the Akallabeth or remove it.

There is another question of how the Valar entered into Ea in the first place if the Walls are impenetrable. I think they received the assistance of Eru in this, but upon entering Ea they were bound to it. I do not have any evidence in the text itself, but it's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Fin's concerns about whether the Ambarkanta describes Arda or all of Ea and how this conception could possibly turn into our modern cosmos are legitimate concerns. I think Tolkien's idea of the in-universe author of the Ambarkanta having imperfect knowledge is the best path forward.

One last thing, it looks like Arcus made one change but forgot to post it on the forum. It is similar to what Gondowe proposed about the fall of the lamps creating the seas:

Quote:

Amb-08 But [Melkor assailed] the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5 {melting of the ice}[ruin of the lamps] made two small inland seas

I like this change.

ArcusCalion · 02-15-2019, 11:22 AM

Let me respond to each of you separately

Fin

I agree that gondowe's "now" does not help, and I agree with the summary of the issue you've laid out. To me it seems that A) is our best option, since to make the interior spaces larger would be immensely difficult from a logical standpoint and from a narrative one. I think our best bet is to assume that the entire work treats mostly with Arda, since that, to me, is the only way that the cosmology makes sense.

About ur points:
- If we go with A) then the ice can be said to reach out to the walls of the world, which is supposed to be an example of the Helcaraxe.
- Did you mean Vilya? In this case I agree, since Melkor passes through it without the aid of Manwe.
- The chasm of Ilmen is also said to be between the shores of Valinor and the sea of Ekkaia in the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor when it describes the Moon sailing over Valinor and plunging into the chasm of Ilmen and chasing the stars beneath the world. But I agree it is an odd concept and a difficult one to understand.
- I agree now about the lakes, and as gandalf said I added in that change in keeping with this idea.

gandalf

Our text does indeed say this, and it is part and parcel with these comments we need to address. It is indeed possible that the Walls of Night are different from the Walls of the World, but I do not think so. In any case this does not solve the issue. Melkor must be able to pass through the Walls of Night at will, but when he is thrust out of the Doors of Night (supposedly in the Walls of the World) he cannot return. This would lend one to think thus: 1) the walls of the world and the walls of night are different. 2) the walls of night enclose Arda while the walls of the world enclose Ea. 3) Melkor was thus thrust out of Ea which is why he cannot return. However, Tolkien explicitly says this is impossible, since no being can leave Ea until the End, as it is part and parcel with their nature that they are bound to Creation, except Men, who are strange. Therefore our neat vision is wrecked. We must seek other solutions:

1) This was a special case of Eru allowing it for the good of Arda
- This would allow the neatest answer, since we would need to make no changes to the text, and would simply (as gandalf suggests) allow the reader to interpret the existence of two walls and chalk any confusion up to in-universe author imperfection. However, this is against the goals of the project. The whole project was designed to answer the question "What is canon?" therefore, leaving things that are wrong and chalking it up to in-universe error goes against the project's goals. That being said, the idea that Eru gave some special dispensation is possible, and we cannot outright discount it.
2) The two walls are different, and the building of the Door of Night is significant because it prevents reentry through the Wall of Night (around Arda), not because it opens through an impassable wall.
- This one would solve the issue of the Valar passing over/through the Walls of Night to enter Arda. If we make them just enclose Arda, then the Valar can pass through them no problem, with the Walls of the World around Ea being the impassable ones. We can thus change every reference to the Walls of the World relating to Valinor or the distance from the land of Arda to the Walls of Night. The Door of Night could be significant because it prevents Melkor's reentry, not because it opens on the Void outside of Ea. The issue with this approach is that it is invented, but to be honest, the idea of there being two walls is in itself invented, and Tolkien must forgive us some clever invention to make this cosmology work.

As for the other points:
- Agreed with Fin about gondowe's change
- I think we must leave them in because the Akallabeth is a very late source compared to this, so to remove it from there is something serious. I think we must try to include them if possible.
- I think you are right in that Eru allowed them to enter Ea for the first time. We do not need to specify this.
- If we take the Ambarcanta to only describe Arda, then it does not make the transition to our cosmology impossible. Once Valinor is removed 'into the realm of hidden things,' we can assume that Vaiya went with it. Then Ilmen becomes open to the spaces of Ea, enclosed within the Walls of Night (preventing Melkor from returning to Arda). But this allows the Sun and Moon to expand into Ea as well as other heavenly bodies which might have been in Ilmen previously. Ilmen then simly becomes our upper atmosphere. It makes enough sense that it shouldn't cause too much concern.
- Thank you for posting this change, it slipped my mind!

Findegil · 02-15-2019, 06:25 PM

I think we should update completely how we want to update this chapter.

Quote:

Amb-01{Ambrakanta}[Ambracanta]
Of the Fashion of the World
Rúmil
Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed, save by the Door of Night.
Amb-02.2<MT, Text II The Stars{, therefore,} in general {will be}are other and remoter parts of the Great Tale of Eä, which do not concern the Valar of Arda. Though{, even if not explicitly, it will be an underlying assumption that} the Kingdom of Arda is of central importance, selected amid all the immeasurable vast of Eä as the scene for the main drama of the conflict of Melkor with Ilúvatar, and the Children of Eru. Melkor is the supreme spirit of Pride and Revolt, not just the chief Vala of the Earth, who has turned to evil.>
Amb-02.3<Ainulindalë{§23 So began their great labours in}In these wastes unmeasured and unexplored{, and in ages uncounted and forgotten, until in the Deeps of Time} and in the midst of the vast halls of {the }Eä there {came to be that hour and }lay that place where was {made }the habitation of the Children of Ilúvatar. >Amb-02.4 Within {these}the walls[ of Night] the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. … But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of Amb-03.5{the World}[Night], Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded.
Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. … for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun.
From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. … The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of Amb-05.5{the World}[Night]. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, … and of the light of the luminaries of heaven.
In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, … and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening.
But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. … and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago.

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, … and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of Amb-06.5{the World}[Night].

Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07{But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the Western Sea and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}they set up {these }great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1b <Moved from above But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World.>

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5b{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars of the Lamps] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. … That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice.
For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, … across the seas which divide them from the shores of Middle-earth.
And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, … and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, … But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar].
But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken in the Amb-09.1b{first Battle of the Gods,}[War of the Powers] when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of Ringil (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas.
And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle}[the War of Wrath], when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages. But the greatest change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished.

Amb-01: I agree to these up date.

Amb-02: When we change {Ilurambar}[Eärambar] (as we should) then we talk here about the outer fence of Eä. And that we should make clear.

Amb-02.1: This was the addition of ‘now’ that gondowe suggested, but we all found not adequate.

Amb-02.2 to Amb-02.4: I adde here a parts from MT, Text II and Ainulindalë and edited them to fit the circumference. Then I change the reference from the Walls of the World to the Walls of Night. I think that we should follow here Christopher Tolkien’s suggestion of two walls which is found in his discussion The Annals of Aman.

Amb-03: I agree to this addition.

Amb-03.5, Amb-05.5 & Amb-06.5: Again this must be the Wall of Night.

Amb-04: This is a good idea, how to deal with the different stars.

Amb-05: I again agree to this change.

Amb-06: Mybe we should think about the Door of Night a little bit less in physical sense. Anyhow if it opens to the Void outside Eä then it must be a transcending thing rather then a physical door. But such an opening into another ‘dimension of being’ might be anywhere (since the Void has anyhow nothing corresponding to the dimensions of our space). So the door might have a kind of double function: opened in the one ‘way’ it led out of Arda, but open in another ‘way’ know only to the great Valar that made the Door it will led out of time and space into the Void out side Eä. At least in that way we could argue. On the other hand we have this passage from MT: “We read that he[Morgoth] was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately[footnote to the text Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Ëa, with the conception of vast spaces within Ëa, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).] to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.“ Thus the Door might simply lead out of Arda and as Morgoth left by his own choice a special protection against he return might simply not be necessary for a very long time (until Dagor Dagorath).

Amb-06.2: I agree to this change suggested by gondowe.

Amb-07 & Amb-07.1b: As the sequence change in the history, we should chang it here as well, as gondowe suggested. In addition I think we should change {the Western Sea}[a Great Lake] (using the unspecific articel).

Amb-08b & Amb-08.5b: ArcusCalion edition looks simpler to me, but I think we should be more specific what caused the building or sees.

Amb-09: I think we all agree to the addition of the Hithaeglir.

Amb-09.1b & Amb-11.1b: As these Battles are named in the later stages of the legendarium we should us these names here.

Amb-10 & Amb-11: I would very much like to have a smother editings for these changes, but I couldn’t find them for the time being.

Diagrams and Maps: Yes, if we can manage we will include them.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 02-15-2019, 08:49 PM

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing:

Quote:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Amb-06bWalls of {the World}Night; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon Amb-06.1the Voids of Eä. {For the World}But Eä is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door when {Melko}[Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

gandalf85 · 02-16-2019, 02:58 PM

Amb-02.2 and Amb-02.3 are great additions which definitely clear things up! Well done Fin!

To markings I do not comment on, I agree to Fin's construction.

Amb-02 and Amb-06 I am OK with this, but we need to be careful. Are we using "The World" as a synonym for Ea? After all, we translate Eärambar (literally "walls of Ea") as Walls of the World. Later we say things like "Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South." and "...Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth." To me it seems clear in these sentences that "the World" is referring to Arda and not Ea. Later we say "The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world..." Are we making a distinction between capitalized "World" and lower-case "world"? I also think we have a problem with Melkor returning "over the Walls of Night" in the main narrative if here we state the Door of Night was created to thrust Melkor out into Ea. If Earendil is guarding the Door of Night, why doesn't Melkor simply return "over the Walls of Night" like he did before? Also, are we going to keep the reference to the Gates of Morning in the Akallabeth and not refer to them here? If so, are we supposing these Gates are in the Wall of Night?

Amb-06.2 I do not understand the reason for this change either.

Amb-08.5b For some reason "the fall of the pillars of the lamps" does not sound Tolkienian to me. I think "run of the lamps" is fine.

Diagrams and maps I agree that editing them is outside the scope of the project, although that would be an interesting project to undertake. Most maps/diagrams I've seen are clearly not aiming for accuracy (except for the most part Karen Wynn Fonstad's maps) and do not show the entirety of Ea.

Amb-09 Yes, we should definitely include the Hithaeglir. It looks like Arcus made a small change and forgot to post it here, I have renamed it Amb-09b:

Quote:

Amb-09b <LQ 1 {But the}[And yet other] mountains were the Hithaeglir...

I think the addition of "yet" helps it flow a bit better.

Also, Fin, the title should be "Ambarcanta," not "Ambracanta".

ArcusCalion · 02-17-2019, 12:50 PM

Amb-02/06: This is indeed a dilemma. Perhaps we could change Walls of the World to Walls of Creation. Because, as you say, 'the world' seems to refer to Arda, not Ea as a whole. Tolkien himself proposed the {Ilurambar}[Earambar] change, so I think a translation of this as Walls of Creation is certainly possible. Or we could simply say 'Walls of Ea'. As for Door of Night, as Fin says we must think of this more as a metaphysical barrier, having perhaps an anchor at a physical point, but its use is to keep Melkor out, as exemplified by the line about Earendil watching over it. We cannot further clarify this without essentially introducing fanfiction, and I think there is enough information at the moment for the reader to infer an explanation. As for the Gates of Morning, I have recently added them to my private draft of the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, and I can discuss them in that place when it comes time to review that chapter once more with Aiwendil.

Findegil · 02-17-2019, 01:57 PM

Amb-02; about all the World => about all Eä: I thought about that change as well, but found it awakward to have “About all Eä are the Eärambar, or Walls of the World.” But in the end it does not really matter if we double Eä or World in this sentence.

World = Eä; world = Arda: I am nit sure if this can be our solution. JRR Tolkien was very unspecific in his usage of the word ‘World’ (equily if big or small case). We either can live with his unspecific usage or we must go through all case where he uses the word and decised what to do – a huge work but not impossible. But it would be changes for clearness only and the unclearness was not created by our editing. So fare the project avoided such bettering of JRR Tolkien’s works.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I think we must not be more correct here then JRR Tolkien was. For the Ainur the Walls of Night are not really a barrier. The Walls are concifed as such a barrier for anythink else within Arda. From what we hear about them one could assume that they are a kind over dimensional soup bowl, filled with Ekkaia. But the rim is a good deal above the water surface plane (as it should always be in a good kitchen). Thus Melkor could easily go over the top and came down into Arda.
I said before that probably Morogth after his defeat at the end of the First Age has no mind to return to Arda as long as he does not see a new chance for himself to win the fight against Manwë and his allies. In MT we hear that Melkor dissipated himself into all the matter of Middle-Earth. Thus part of his being could not be removed and would work farther for his case, what so ever the Valar did. And we hear in MT that Morgoth incontrast to Sauron could grow again. So we might expect him to come back in Dagor Dagorath but not earlier.

Gates of Morning: Akalabêth does not specifiy what it was that the Númenoreans saw. It could be a pass in the Walls of the Sun. Anyhow that mountain range would prevent the sailors to see Gate of Morning if it was a in Walls of Night.

Amb-06: I think if we take AcrusCalions point of view, which is a decent decision, we have to remove some of the attributes of Ando Lómen:

Quote:

The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of Amb-06c{the World}[Night]; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Amb-06.05{Timeless }Night that pierceth the Walls and opens upon the Amb-06.1b{Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time}<MT vast <editorial addition empty >spaces within Ëa>. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2{when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil].

Amb-06.1b: I think we should remove the reference to Kuma, the Void, here, because with that we would only farther the confusion. I think we should move it and as we use the Doors of Night here we have to remove them earlier:

Quote:

Amb-02b<moved from bellow{For the}The World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.05{, save by the Door of Night}.

Amb-06.2: What gondowe refers to is that Earendil is already sailing in Ilmen before Morgothe was thrust through the Door of Night, so that it might be that the Valar had made the Door ready before Eonwë marched against Morgoth.

Amb-08.5b: But the ruin of the Lamps did creat great burnings. What about removing the Lamps:

Quote:

Amb-08b But <editorial addition Melkor assailed> the pillars{ were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted}, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the Amb-08.5c{melting of the ice}[fall of the pillars] made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land.

Diagrams and Maps: I think we have to edit them and that is why I said if we can manage it. Of course we are not going to make an elaborated Altas like Karen Wynn Fonstad, but must clear them from issues we have identified here, and we probably have to include some missing features like the Hithaeglir (which is of course the most problematic part).

Amb-09b: Agreed.

{Ambrakanta}[Ambarcanta]: Thanks for pointing this out.

Respcetfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 02-17-2019, 04:10 PM

World: I think to impose the World = Ea; world = Arda distinction is artificial and too needlessly editorial. How is this:

Quote:

Amb-02 <moved from below {For the World}The Creation, Eä, is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Night without form or time.> About all {the World}Eä are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of {the World}Creation.

I agree to the rest of them Fin, they look wonderful.

gandalf85 · 02-17-2019, 07:59 PM

The usage of World: OK, I agree with you guys, we should just leave "World" and "world" as unspecific. It would indeed be needlessly editorial.

Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I like the "soup bowl" metaphor, but it seems strange that the Valar would set Earendil to watch the Door of Night if Melkor can simply return at any point over the "rim" whenever he wants. I missed your comment about it being something not physical, Fin. I think that's the best explanation. Melkor biding his time would also make sense.

Gates of Morning: You're right, this is ambiguous enough so it should be fine to leave it as is in the Akallabeth.

Amb-06 and Amb-06.1 I agree to these changes, I think this makes it clearer.

Amb-06.2: Oh, I get it now. Yes, I agree to Gondowe's proposed change. "In the time" is nice and vague.

Amb-08.5b: I see why you made your original change now. This is indeed more clear.

Diagrams and Maps: I agree we would have to edit them slightly if we decide to include them. I mentioned Fonstad's maps mostly as a compliment to her and using her as a contrast to the "lungs map" (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-conten...nds_color.jpeg) which boggles my mind every time I see it. Numenor isn't even a star!

Amb-02: Upon reflection, since we are going to use "World" in an unspecific way, I think it's better the way Fin has it. Adding in "Creation" like that feels like too much of an editorial intrusion on our part.

ArcusCalion · 02-17-2019, 11:10 PM

Amb-02: very well, leaving it as is works fine.

Maps: Gods the lung map... it gives me extreme stress whenever I see it because I think of all the people who have been led astray by it.

Findegil · 02-18-2019, 11:45 PM

I can only emphasis the compliment to Fonstad, The Historical Atlas is one of my favourite pieces of secondary literature on Tolkien’s World.
And yes, the contrast to the “lungs map” could not be greater. I first set my eyes on that ridiculous thing in black and white print in David Day’s “Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia” (in the German translation, loan from a public libary, later unhappily I got the book as a gift). Even back then when I had not read more of Tolkien then The Hobbit, LotR and Sil77 I observed how obviously wrong this map was. In some aspects (like the Star shape of Numenor) the Author is not to be blaimed, because the work was really drawn quiet early, when Sil77 was the only source for the First and Second Age. But other aspects like the relative placing of Beleriand and Eriador or the freely placed features in ‘Undaying Lands’ he should have known better. In its over all composition this map skips one very important dimension: time. It draws together every thing that is every mention in all the ages of Arda. This concept could only lead to a worng picture. None the less the map had a lasting influence: Until The Shaping of Middle-Earth was published I think the shape of the western continent was in may maps based more or less on the shape it has in this map.

Eärendil and the Door of Night: It is not like Eärendil standing guard at the portal. He is sailing in Vingilot upon Ilmen, I suppose. And that means he is more or less patrolling all the wide area (nearly a half-globe) of Vaiya where there is no Wall of Night.

Respectfully
Findegil

ArcusCalion · 02-19-2019, 11:05 AM

With that, I think this chapter is done! Fin, can you update it on the outline?

Findegil · 02-28-2019, 06:00 PM

I have started to work on the Diagrams and Maps. I got relatively good scans of the them. First a view general points:

1. I am not willing to redraw all the Maps and Diagrams. Therefore I think we should use the original reproductions as given in HoME IV.

2. Readability of Tolkien’s hand writing on the reproductions is pure. I think we should remove all this and replace it by some printed font. ‘Rockwell’ is nearest to the font used on the map in the LotR that I had on my computer. Or do we give a list of all things written as Christopher Tolkien did in e.g. HoME IV; Map V and make or ubdates by copying letters?

3. As a matter of fact we have to change some things. But the question is how far do we go with this. I give her under a list of things I have changed already and would wish to hear your comments on these and any additional feature you think should be amended.

I have started on Map V, which seems must difficult, since it is very rough and missing many essesnsital features, which we must added. In addition the covering of the lables is most difficult since the backround is flecked and smired grey.
This Map must represent the state between the War of the Powers (Melkor captured in Utumno) and the War of Wrath (Angband destroyed). It is clearly only a rough sketch. Nonetheless we must work on it and with it:
- I added Anduin and the Hithaeglir. For that I reconstructed first Tolkiens Map for the LotR that is given in HoME VII. Then I stitched it together with the map from Sil77 by bringing the Ered Luin of the First Age into agreement to that of the Third and fitting as good as possible Tol Fuin and Himling to Dorthonion and Himring. This combined Map I overlaid to Map V by fitting it to Hithlum, Dorthonion and the upper part of Ered Luin. (I wondered how nicely they fitted all together. The only feature that did not match nicely was the course of Duin Daer (Gelion), which is in the larger scale map from Sil77 much farther from the mountains. The coast line south of the Bay of Balar for example looked like a natural prolongation of the Sil77 map. One strange observation by the way: The coast line on the northern extent ion of the Map from HoME VII (Tolkien’s LotR map) is about the distance of the length of the Hithaeglir farther North than the northern most point on Map V!) Anduin does naturally flow into the Inland Sea and maybe we have to generalise the course of the river a bit more. Please let me know your opinion about that.
- Tol Eressëa is missing completely on this map. I added it beside the magic Isle and the shadowy Isle, by combining Map IV to Map V by fitting the cost lines of Aman.
- I would not add any farther details: In the original there are no woods so Mirkwood would be unwanted. Since we have no representation of the Third Age Iron Hills and The Sea of Rhun lay a bit north of the Inland Sea on Map V I would not add either of these. For Luhn, Baranduin or Mitheithel/Gwathló we have no idea if they cut through the Southern Ered Luin or if they rounded the Hithaeglir in the South and flowed into the Inland Sea. I find the later more probable. But since we don’t know we should not add them.
- The false start of drawing the last part of the course of Duin Daer (Gelion, the southern crossed out branch) should go.
I don’t see any other feature that was clearly ‘marked for deletion’ by Tolkien, but their might be some superficial lines:
- In Beleriand we have what looks like a false start at the coast line from the mouth of Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out ‘branch’ of Duin Daer (Gelion), I think we should remove that.
- There is a line running straight north-south crossing Hithlum and going into the bay of Balar just at the mouth of Sirion. In Hithlum it might be Rivers running into Lake Mithrim and in its southern part this might be a bad representation of Narog. We might let it stand. Please give me your opinion about it.
- One question is if we should add the ‘Yellow Mountains’. It could of course be that they were destroyed / removed during the War of Powers. But I find it equally possible that they were just forgotten on Map V. If you think we should add them please give as well some indication of how you would find the right place.
The script on this Map is in part really hard to read. Therefore I decided to remove them completely and give the following label in a font near to that used on the maps from LotR. On the original map we have some labels written in a bow (AMAN; HITHER LANDS and Walls of the Sun). I have tried to catch the bows more or less.
What follows is how I worked with the labels:
- Angband
- Daidelos => Dor Daedeloth
- Thangorodrim
- Hithlum
- Beleriand
- We have the 3 acronyms ‘S’ for South in the middle of the continent ‘Africa’ and again as ‘S.’ in the South of the continent, ‘N’ for North in what would become Eriador and ‘NW’ for North-West in southern East-Beleriand. At least the northern ‘S’ must go. But I would remove them all.
- Inland Sea
- H I T H E R L A N D S
- Straits of the World
- Helcaraxe => Helcaraxë
- Beleglorn Great Gulf => Belfalas Great Gulf
- Great Seas
- Alflon => Aqualondë
- (Belegaer)
- The 2 old English names Utgarsecg and Ingarsecg should be removed.
- Bay of Fary => Bay of Eldamar
- I would add ‘Tol Eressëa’
- Eruman => Araman
- Outer Lands (Valinor)
- Two Trees
- Tún => Túna
- Valimar
- Taniqetil => Taniquetil
- Arvalin => Avathar
- The stroked out name Eruman south of the Bay of Fary should also be removed.
- A M A N
- Outer Seas
- East Sea
- Dark Land (South Land)
- Walls of the Sun (I moved this nearer to the mountains to generate some space for the next entry.)
- Burnt Land of the Sun (This label I turned and moved and bowed to fit it inside the continent it belongs to.)
- Outer Seas
- The text in the upper right corner reads: ‘After the War of the Gods (Arvalin was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mts.’ I think we change this to: ‘After the War of the Powers Araman was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mountains.’

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 03-04-2019, 08:56 PM

Wow, that sounds like a lot of work! That's really cool, Fin! Responding to your points.

1. That seems reasonable to start. We can try to finalize what we wish to change/include, and if we wanted, somebody could re-create the maps for a final version.

2. I'd have to see how it looked to decide if a printed font works. I think changing it on the map directly is the best idea. They cost money, but the fonts from https://www.mytolkienbooks.com/tolkien-fonts/ would probably work best.

3. Map V is indeed pretty rough.

- Not sure I entirely understand your question about the Anduin, I may need to look at the map itself to understand it.

- Adding in Tol Eressëa and the shadowy Isle by combining Maps IV and V makes sense.

- I agree that adding things (like forests or other rivers) by guessing isn't in the spirit of the project, I would simply clean up what Tolkien himself drew.

- I agree with removing the attempt at the coast line from the mouth of the Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out branch of the Gelion.

- I agree with you assessment that this line appears to be the Narog, along with tributaries to Lake Mithrim. I say we let it stand.

- I think attempting to add the Yellow Mountains would involve too much guess work. It is reasonable to assume they were destroyed during the War of Powers.

- I agree with all of your textual/legend changes. I'm OK with simply removing the labels showing the cardinal directions (north, north-west and the two souths), they do not add much to the map and are situated in confusing locations.

Findegil · 03-05-2019, 02:19 PM

Posted by gandalf85:

Quote:

Wow, that sounds like a lot of work!

It is, but it makes for some fun as well. And the result is worth the effort, in my opinion.
2. Thanks for guiding to the fonts, but as I need Word-Art for the inclusion of some white ‘shadow’ behind the letters to make them more readable and I never found out how to add fonts to Word-Art, I don’t think I can work with them.
3.:
- About Anduin: As I scaled the Map up as much as possible to add the Hithaeglir and Anduin, I was abe to follow the course of Anduin on the LotR map closely. But this means it course represented now probably in much greater detail than any other river on the map.
- Adding other things: Have you seen this thread in The Books forum? There it is revealed that on Tolkien’s original working map for the LotR are some features east of the Sea of Rhûn. Most clear of this is a Mountain range. As we have no idea when that was raised (if it is not indeed a representation of the Orocarni) we can of course not add it.

Working on Map IV, I have some farther remarks for Map V:
- If we do add the Enchanted Isles we specify the map to be after the Hidding of Valinor. Which is okay for me.
- I think we should remove the Enchanted Isle from Map IV. An since that we should add their name here.
- I would as well add the name of the Shadowy Isles here.
- The Burnt Lands of the Sun seem to be a late addition to the map by Tolkien. It looks like he had already marked the area as sea by hachuring. Should we remove that and ‘clean’ the eastern continent? I think we should.

Of course it will all be easier to discuss once you have seen the maps. Please have some patients with me while working on it.

Respectfully
Findegil
P.S.: gandalf85, maybe you should edit your post, and remove my ‘standard geeting’ from the end. Otherwise it looks a bit like I would discuss all this only with myself.

Findegil · 03-06-2019, 01:51 PM

I have finished the work on Map IV. Therefore here my changes:
- This Map must represent the state after the Fall of the Lamps and the first fortification of Valinor but before the War of the Powers. Therefore the way of the Elves from Cuiviénen to Beleriand is anachronistic. I think we must remove it.
- Tún: We should remove this as well, since at the time of this map Túna was not jet there.
- Eldaros (Elvenhome): Same here, no Elves in Valinor so no name ‘Elvenhome’.
- Bay of Elfland: And again, no Elves means no name ‘Bay of Elfland’.
- The Enchnated or Magic Isles: In our text we tell that these Isle were put into the sea at the Hidding of Valinor. Therefore we must remove the Isles and the name.
- The Shadowy Isles are a different case. In our text they are only once mentioned and that is in the vision of Tuor at the end of his talk with Ulmo. As we know nothing more the Isle could already be there at the time Map IV represents, so I would simply let them stand.
- The Straits of Ice: Only the Helcaraxë is drawn. The other three are only written in. In addition we have an issue with the comparision between Map IV and Diagram II. The Straits of Ice are seen in the North-South-Cut of Diagram II, which means that they covered the full breadth of ‘Pelmar’. If that is so, do we show that in Map IV? If we do, it would be a lot of work and probably look a bit monoton, since we have not much to work with. At first I added drawings of the Straits of Ice only like that of the Helcaraxë and evnen that looked ‘forced’. (Luckily the Straits of Ice are neither named nor drawn in Map V.)
- I would shy back from adding the Hithaeglir on this map, but I think we can assume that Angband was older and that the map represents the time between the building of Angband and the rearing up of the Hithaeglir.
Labels to be used, from above left to below right:
- ‘V’ written head down in the upper right corner is to be removed
- North Formen
- ‘The World about V.Y. 500 after the fall of the Lamps Helkar and Ringil and the first fortification of the North by Melko’ => ‘The World after the fall of the pillars of the Lamps Helcar and Ringil and the first fortification of the North by Melkor’
- Utumna => Where Utumna is marked on the Map in the later concept Angband was. Wherefore we should lable that dot ‘Angband’
- We should add ‘Utumno’ makred as similar dot about the center of the land behind the Iron Mountains.
- Vaiya => Ekkaia
- Helkarakse => Helcaraxë
- Beleriand
- Iron Mountains
- Straits of Ice
- Falasse => Falas
- Northland
- Eruman => Araman
- ‘Westerness’: I think we must remove this since that word was later only used for Númenor. In its place I would here repeat ‘Westland’
- Blue Mountains
- Red Mountains
- Eastland
- Shadowy Isles
- Chasm of Ilma => Chasm of Ilmen
- ‘Belegar or Great or West Sea’ => ‘Belegaer or Great or West Sea’
- ‘Sea of Helkar’ => ‘Sea of Helcar’
- Kuiviénen => Cuiviénen
- West Númen
- Valinor
- Valmar
- Mountains of Valinor
- Taniqetil => Taniquetil
- Tol Eressea => Tol Eressëa
- Pelmar or Middle-Earth
- Endon Earth-middle => Endor Earth-middle
- Mid-land
- Mts. of the Wind
- Hildórien
- East Sea
- Lands of the Sun
- Mts. or Walls of the Sun
- East Rómen
- Chasm of Ilmen
- Arvalin => Avathar
- ‘Westland or’ => Westland
- Sea of Ringil
- Chasm of Ilma => Chasm of Ilmen
- Straits of Ice
- Grey Mountains
- Southland
- Yellow Mountains
- Straits of Ice
- Vaiya => Ekkaia
- ‘The Magic Isles & Tol-eressea are shown as they were placed much later.’: I think we should remove the Magic Isles and this note.
- South Hyarmen

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 03-07-2019, 07:16 PM

Wow, I think the maps turned out great! Excellent work!

The removals from Map IV: I agree with what you removed. I would keep the Shadowy Isles as it stands.

The Straits of Ice: I think what you added to show the extent of the griding ice is great. It looks like mountains, but that is how Tolkien depicted the Helcaraxë.

Hithaeglir: In chapter 3 of the Silmarillion it says the Hithaeglir were raised by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome. I think it's safe to assume he settled in Angband before this.

Westernesse: "Westland" makes sense to me.

The Magic Isles and Tol Eressea: In the image you sent, it looks like you removed the Magic Isles but not Tol Eressea? I am hesitant about removing both the Magic Isles and Tol Eressea. I agree that it's weird to have a kind of superposition of maps from different eras in time, but that is personal preference and this is explicitly how Tolkien constructed the map. I would keep The Magic Isles and Tol Eressea, along with the note.

Other notes: In Map IV, "Valinor" is misspelled as "Valionr". Also in Map IV, there looks to be some small text added in before "Easterness" which wasn't in the original map, and I can't read what it says.

Findegil · 03-08-2019, 05:34 AM

The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: Yes I removed the magic Isles because the Maps showes a time when these Isles were definitley not there. I think that Tolkien draw Map IV while he worked on the Ambarkanta but found then, that he had mixed up different times. In consequence he put in the note and made the shetchy Map V. Since I added some features to Map V, I think it is okay if we as well remove the anachronistic features in Map IV. I left Tol Eressëa because this was an existing Island when it was used to ferry the Elves. But of course the placemant is unsure and I am willing to remove it as well if that is preferd by the groupe.

Hithaeglir: Melkor did not settle in Angband himself at this time but that he builded Angband first and then later raised the Hithaegilr was also my impression.

Other Notes:
- Valinor: Thanks for catching this misspelling.
- The small word before Easterness is 'or'. In full the lable reads 'Eastland of Easterness' as in the original. I agree that the readability is pure. May be we should set the lables in that are printed in Sea, Ice or Mountains in a white frame, like it is in the original.

What about the course of Anduin in Map V? Is that okay?

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 03-09-2019, 10:40 AM

The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa : OK, after thinking about it, I agree to removing both of these so that our maps show one particular time period.

Eastland of Easterness: You're right, it does say "Eastland of Easterness". In Tolkien's original "of" is just a scribble on top of lines depicting the water. In your edited version I would just increase the font of the entire phrase "Eastland of Easterness". Hopefully that makes the "of" more clear.

The Anduin: Karen Wynn Fonstad has the path of the Anduiin slightly different (http://www.theonering.com/galleries/...n-wynn-fonstad). I'm not saying she's definitely right, just using it as comparison. How do we know the Anduin flows into the Inland Sea?

Findegil · 03-10-2019, 05:23 PM

The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: But Tol Eressëa was in existance. Therefore I did not remove it.

Eastland or Easterness it is an 'or' not an 'of' we are speaking about. Similar an the shore of Aman was written in the original 'Westland or Westerness'. We can of course take a bigger skript.

Anduin: Yes, Karen Wynn Fonstad came to an other result. I think she changed rather Map V and kept as much of the LotR map as she could, while I rather kept Map V and only added features from the LotR map. In that way she as well opened a pass in the southern Eastward bend of Ered Luin to let out the Baranduin and created a gap between these Eastward bended Ered Luin and the Ered Nimrais that she took from the LotR map. If we look at Map V, all this is one single mountain rnage going from the Iron Mountians in the north-west to the Straits of the World south-east. Fonstad also created an out flow of the Inland Sea. On can argue that such is outflow is necessary, but I am not so sure about that. We have some real world examples that don't have outflows.

Anyhow between the time of Map V and the LotR map we have at least three Ages of the Trees plus about 600 years of the Sun and with the War of Wrath one mayor demiurgic conflict. Therefore I think, Map V is rather to be kept, because the differences to the LotR map are rather explained by the changes that occured in the time inbetween.

In the combined map I made the course of Anduin naturly flowed into the Inland Sea. But maybe I must re-read how Fonstad combined the LotR map and Silmarillion map. Slight differences in scaling might lead to some of the differences and we have two scaling in between. Also it might be worth taking not the map from Sil77 but the one given in HoME.

So I have to start again more or less from scrap. But since I this time I will take along the eastern extrension of the LotR map at least I will see if the the eastern Mountain Range on the LotR map is identical with the Orocarni or not. And once the features from the LotR map are added, the rest of the work (covering all the labels and unwanted features and addinbg the new labels) is not lost.

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 03-14-2019, 05:17 PM

The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: Yes, keep Tol Eressëa, I was sloppy in my response.

Eastland or Easterness: You're right, it says "or".

Findegil · 03-14-2019, 11:56 PM

The right scale makes a lot of difference! I used now the 2nd Silmarillion Map from HoME 5. As there is a scaled grid on this and on the LotR-Map from HoME 7 that combination is no big deal. The grids have neither the same edge length (2nd Silmarillion Map 3.2cm = 50 miles, LotR-Map 2centimeters = 100 miles) nor a common reference point. But once the scale is equalized the fitting of the Ered Luin from one Map to the other is easy. I will call the result the “Combined Map”
To scale the Combined Map so that Beleriand matches Map V is not easy. Here are some experimental options and there results:

A) My first atemp was to match Ered Luin and the course of Duin Daer (Gelion) and the coast line about the Bay of Balar:
The higher part of Dorthonion and the hills about Himring are well matching their counter part on Map V, but Hithlum and Nevrast are half it size farther south on Map V, so that Taras would on Map V lie were Eglarest is on the Combined Map. On the other hand the westward bend in the river Duin Daer (Gelion) is on Map V 50 miles farther north. So it is clear that Beleriand is somewhat ‘deformed’ on Map V. Now the really strange positions come farther east but they are similar enough to be discussed together with B).

B) As a compromise I tried to match Ered Luin and only the source of Duin Daer, the high part of Dorthonion and the main course of the River Sirion:
In the result Hithlum fits a bit better but Nevrast reaches still much to fare to the south. Taras being on Map V where Felagund’s Tower of Nimrais is on the Combined Map. The western Ered Wethrin runs north-east to south-west on Map V while on the Combined Map it runs east-west. Since the westward bend in the course of Sirion on Map V is not seen in the Combined Map, the mouth of Sirion on Map V is at Cap Balar on the Combined Map.
But even with that compromise the eastern fetures of the Combined Map are in stange positions: The Sea of Rhûn gets in touch with the eastern ocean and the eastern extention of the Combined Map reaches nearly to the norther tip of the Burnt Land of the Sun. The Inland Sea of Map V would reach from the mouth of the Isen to Barad-Dûr and from Osgiliath to Dol-Guldur, covering the complete Ered Nimrais and the southern third of the Hithaeglir with Lorien. Umbar would be in the middle of the African like continent about the “R” of HITHER LANDS. The Iron Mountians of the Third Age would be at the norther end of the Red Mountains from Map V.
As the text always rules and we have effidence that the Ered Nimrais where in existence during the captivity of Melkor and the wandering of the Nandor this is a no go! That means it is clear that in Map V Beleriand is not only ‘deformed’ but as well drawn much greater then the rest.
Beside the question if we are going to correct that, we have to decised how to scale the Combined Map to the same scale as Map V, since we have proven that Beleriand can’t be used.

C) Take the mountain range on the eastern extention of the LotR-Map (for easier reference I will call this the “Eastern Range”) to be the Orocarni and scale the Maps by the distance between these and the Ered Luin:
The bend in the Eastern Range fits more or less to that of the northern Red Mountains on Map V, but the Red Mountains reach much farther to the south and north. The tip of the Fjord of Dengrist of the combined Map is then about the palce of Eithil Sirion on Map V. The Helcaraxë becomes twice as broad as on the original Map V. The coastline at the southern boundary of the combined Map (south-west of Umbar) matches nearly the tip of the Great Gulf on Map V. The Inland Sea covers nearly all the Bay of Belfalas and Mordor, While the Sea of Rhûn is still unconnected and north of it (the Inland Sea ends exactly where Erd Lithui is on the Combined Map). The southern part of Ered Luin that bends eastward is completly in the western sea of the Combined Map.
From the look of it in this atemp the Combined Map seems too small compared to Map V.

D) Take the Map of Fonstad as a guid: match that Map to Map V and macth the combined Map to that of Fonstad.
D1) I scaled and fitted the Fonstad Map by Ekkaia and all the Sothern continants. Judge by that Fonstand does stretch the north a bit or moves Beleriand South and West. Here Bay of Balar is at the Mouth Duin Daer (Gelion) on Map V, while the Highlands of Dorthonion on Map V sit on her Ered Engrin behind Thangorodrim. What does match is the position of Taras and the coast line from about Eglarest to the north. The Ered Luin on Fonstad’s map are moved westward to the position of the Duin Daer (Gelion) on Map V. And she shortens the Ered Luin in the south east by one third. Out side Beleriand the northern coastline of the Great Gulf does nearly match. Actually Fonstad does pronuce the Great Gulf, by adding the coast line of Belfalas and Harondor. Thus the Gulf does reach farther east and is broader then on Map V. Fonstad does as well move the Inland Sea and bend the Orcocrani much to the east, even so the point where on her map the Orocarni connect to the Iron Mountians matches nearly with the north end of the Red Mountains on Map V.
We are of course not as free with our Map as is Fonstad. Either we take Map V with only small modifications or we leave it out. Adding the Hithaeglir and Anduin in their proper place was the aim of all this. Not to explain how the world changed from the geography of Map V to that of the Third Age. (Even so that is an very interesting discussion in its own right.) There are for sure possible explainations for that question without so many changes on Map V. That means we will for sure not move the Inland Sea or the Orocarni. In the way Fonstad has done in her map.
D2) Therefore our result will be different: Since Fonstad’s map is based on the 2nd Silmarillion Map I could scale and fit the Combined Map easily to that part. That meas of course that all features in Beleriand fit or don’t fit as described above. But farther east and south Fonstad modified both Map V taking it only as a rough sketch and the LotR-Map because it depicts the Thrid Age and Fonstad postulated some geographical changes (as she had to do). In the end as a matter of fact we also have to postulate some geographical changes from the time of Map V to that of the LotR-Map. But to do so we should first look on the direct comparision of the Combined Map with Map V. The southern part of the Ered Luin would then be nearly at the later coastline of Eriador. A nice feature of that scaling and placement is that the norther promontory forming the Ice bay of Forochel does here match with the Iron Mountains of Map V. But these Iron Moutians must in a way be modified because they must as well reach Thangorodrim on the Combined Map. The Inland Sea of Map V would in the west cover two third of the eastern Ered Nimrais with Anorien and all of Rohan. In the north it would reach to the Naith of Lorien, Dol-Guldur and the east bay in Mirkwood and cover the Sea of Rhûn, in the south it would just not cover the Nurnen Sea in Mordor. The Eastern Range would only at its south end match with the Red Mountains of Map V. The direction of the Eastern Range is in that part north-east to south-west while the Red Mountains ran north-west to south-east. The Bend in the Orocarni of Map V that would lead to the right direction is about 200 miles to far north. Umbar would be just behind the northern end of the Grey Mountains of Map V. The Tip of the Great Gulf of Map V would be in the middle of the Bay of Belfalas about 50 miles west of Tolfalas on the Combined Map.
As everything is moved south, we have again nothing south of Ered Nimrais where we hear that some of the Nandor settled before Denethor led some to Eriador and later to Ossiriand.

E1) As we have a scale on the Combined Map and a feature that looks very much like real world Afica try to make the southern part of the Hither Lands as big as Africa on the scale of the Combined Map. Africa is north to south about 7600 km or 4700 miles and east to west about 7400 km or 4600 miles: By chance the LotR-Map covers north to south 23 squares of its grid of 100 miles. That is half of the broadness of the Southern Hitherlands if they are taken to be like Africa. I fited the Combined Map of that scale to the source of Duin Daer:
Now the norther promontory forming the Ice bay of Forochel does here again match with the Iron Mountains of Map V. But all the rest of features on the LotR-Map do in the south not even reach the Inland Sea. Umbar is at that Map about the hight of Tolkien’s fals atemp of the mouth of the river Duin Daer (Gelion). The Helcaraxë would be 3,5 times as broad as on the orginal Map V.
Here I think we are dealing with a well know issue that always comes up when discussing sketches of a global map: In Tolkien’s times large wall paper Maps were most often Mercator projections. This leads to a depiction of more northern areas like Europe as much larger in proportion to central regions like Africa. Also big central regions like Africa are ‘stretched’: north-south distances are depicted grater then east-west distances (mark that the southern Hither Lands are much ‘thiner’ than real World Africa).
E2) So may be we should rather take the north-south as reference. I fited the Combined Map of that scale to the source of Duin Daer:
Now the Inland Sea reachs in the north just so the south-eastern Ephel Duath and the Helcaraxë is still 3 times as broad as on the orginal Map V.
Even so Tolkien’s world was considered by him as flat when he wrote the Ambrakanta and made the Maps, his imagination of the world was for sure influenced by the Mercator projections he did know. It might be worth to consider the ‘deformation’ of Arda when it was made round to be some what similar to a ‘revers Mercator-projection’. But that is, as already said above, another discussion. Anyhow it is clear that this options E1) and E2) are not usefull for our momentary propose.

Before doing the next trial let’s recapitulate what we have learnd so far:
The depiction of Beleriand on Map V has some deficits. You just ahve to look on it see that, but more specific points will follow:
- The wesetern part of Ered Wethrin runs too much to the south.
- The westward bend in the lower course of Sirion is wrong.
- All Beleriand seams to be ‘squezed’ in the north-south direction or rather stretched in east-west direction.
- From my atemps A and B and from Fonstad’s atemp we as well get the impression that Beleriand is over all depicted too big on Map V.
Critisem on the Fonstad map:
- The stretching of Beleriand on Map V Fonstad corrected by moving the Ered Luin westward and keeping the western coast line specially in the north where it is on Map V. This is a good idea since we have to ‘creat’ some space for Eriador, the Hithaeglir and Rohvanion. And with this movement Fonstad reduced probably the need she saw for the eastward movement of the Inland Sea and the Orocarni.
- Fonstad breaks the southern part of Ered Luin for the Baranduin and the combined Gwathlo/Isen. I am not sure if that is necessary. There is no suggesteion of this in Map V. Therefore I would rather think that the rivers of Eriador created the later Gap of Rohan or simply flowed around the Hithaeglir in the south.
- To include the Withe Mountains is correct, since they are mentioned in text of the Silmarillion as existing already when the Nandor wandered along Anduin. But due to Fonstad’s supposition of the maps she had to cut of the souther third of the Blue Moutians. I am not so sure that this is correct. I see two possiblilties: either the Withe Mountaisn are a separate Range meaning that the supposition of the maps must allow for some space in between the Blue and the Withe Mountains or the Withe Mountains are the southern part of the Blue Mountians. In that case the supposition of the maps must either support that or the range was shifted in the War of Wrath at end of the First Age. Possibly Fonstad had the later idea in mind, but thought that the shift happend already in the War of Powers. But I do not see any good reason why that earlier movement should be true against the evidence of Map V.
- The same arguement is true for the shape of the Great Gulf. As a matter of fact, the Great Gulf became later the Bay of Belfalas. But Fonstad does on her map already change the shape of that Gulf to match the Bay of Belfalas more closely. Why introduce these changes to the geography of Map V, since there is plenty of evidence that all western the coast line was changed in the War of Wrath?
- The position of Umbar behind the norther end of the Grey Mountians is smart. It seems that Fonstad postulates that the promontory forming the Bay of Umbar was that northen most part of the Grey Mountains. She does even “prepare” her readers for that by breaking the Grey Mountains in this region by a river that on Map V flows rather to the East Sea. (But the drastical change to the souther Hither Lands Fonstad introduced in maps showing the World after the War of Wrath is fully unsupported by any evidence of Tolkien as fare as I know.)
- Her shifted Inland Sea still covers both later inland seas: The Sea of Rhûn and the Sea of Nurnen. She reaches that be not only shifting the Sea to the east but as well slightly turning it probably similar to the bending in the Orocarni. The idea behind that is of course that these later inland seas might have been the remains of the big Inland Sea of Helcar, which I find a very sound and fitting concept.
- Every thing in Beleriand is shifted south from its position on Map V, why?
- The Iron Mountains are shifted south on Fonstad’s map compared to Map V. In that way they are still where their Thrid Age remains left and right of Mount Gundabad are. But I wonder why that should be so. Utomno was destroyed in the War of Powers. We hear that the Iron Mountains were in the West pushed back greatly at that occausion leaving behind the Ered Wethrin, the Echoriath, the Higlands of Dorthonion and Himring. When the obviously easy stroming of Angband that left it intact enough to be later resued let to such a drastic change, how could then the destruction of Utumno leave the Iron Mountians so intact in their eastern parts? If we compare the position of the Iron Moutians on Map IV and Map V (for reference I will call that F) we find exactly what the text described in the west: The highlands of Dorthonion on Map IV match the Iron Mountains of Map V. And the complete Range of the Iron Mountains is farther North with a special dent to the north somewhere in the middle. Even so it was not meant so when drawn (since at that time Angand was build on the remains of Utumno), I would suggest that this is, were Utumno should have been. On the Fonstad map the Iron Mountains are around Mount Gundabad even farther south then on Map IV.
- Seeing the last two points it seems to me that Fonstad shifted nearly everything on the Combined Map to the south, so I can not gues a good reason for that.

G) So with the north shift of the Iron Mountains from Map IV to Map V we have a new reference line: Gundabad on the Combined Map should be where the Iron Mountians have been on Map IV. The scale is defined by alining Dorthonion from the Combined Map and Map V then Gundabad must just touches the Iron Mountains from Map IV. But how to do the fit in the east-west direction?
G1) If we would aline with the Ered Luin, the Red Mountains of Map V would be directly east of the Sea of Rhûn and Helcaraxë would be twice as broad as on Map V. That does not seem right.
G2) If I take the north-western coast of Beleriand as reference things look better:
The Mountians of Mithrim and the Ered Lomin north of Dengrist does in this combi fit to the Iron Mountains on Map IV. The mouth of Sirion is now farther north on the Combined Map but at the same east-west position. If we prolongate the course of the River Duin Daer (Gelion) from the edge of the 2nd Silmarillion Map by about 200 miles we reach exactly the mouth of that River on Map V which fits very well with over all the length of given in the text. Also the end of the coast line of Beleriand from the 2nd Silmarillion Map fits exactly the mouth of Sirion on Map V. Thus the coast line of Map V would be a perfect prolongation of that on the 2nd Silmarillion Map. Thangorodrim on the Combined Map is 200 miles west of the end of the Iron Mountains on Map V. The northern third of Ered Luin on Map V is of course about 200 miles farther east then on the Compined Map, but the middle and south third of Ered Luin on Map V nonetheless look like a natural prolongation of that range on the Combined Map. The middle part is again on the coast line of Eriador. The south part is nearly fully in the later Bay of Belfalas, so in the south it nearly touches the coast a bit south of the mouth of the River Harnen. The tip of the Great Gulf is now exactly where on the Combined Map is the haven of Umbar. The Inland Sea covers now part of the Bay of Belfalas with Tolfalas Lebenin and the eastern quarter of the Ered Nimrais. Its norther coast runs through the Nindalf and over Dargorlad and covers fully the Ered Lithui. So it has 100 miles distance to the southern coast of the Sea of Rhûn. In the south the Inland Sea covers Mordor and the Ephel Duath fully and reachs in the east to a point less than 200 miles from the edge of eastern extension of the LotR-Map. And as a surprise the Eastern Range again fits the Red Mountains on Map V.
This looks more right to me than anything else so far. So let’s try that by a discussion of the changes coming along with the War of Wrath:
- Beleriand are the norther part of Ered Luin are clear and needs not be discussed.
- The Iron Mountains are completly removed. The part is in the Sea and in the Ice Bay of Forochel. But nearl its full length is covered by the Combined Map which shows no sign of it. The Ice Bay of Forochel extands a good deal north of that Mountain range. Its eastern shore being only 150 miles from the northward bent in that Range, so there might have been some connection to the old ruins of Utumno. It would probably make seens to flod the ruins.
- That the coast line south of bay of Balar was as well greatly changed in that war, is clear from a look on the Combined Map. And comparing it with Map V it is as well clear that the Great Gulf became much broader. And to reach that part of the Blue Mountains must go.
- The southern two thirds of the Blue Mountains must as well have been destroyed. It seems that they were some how the borderline of the destruction, at least in the middle part, since where they had been after the battle was the coast of Eriador.
- Fonstad does mention in her text that during the War of Wrath a connection was made between the Inland Sea and Belegear. I don’t think this a information based on a Tolkien source. But it makes much sense since clearly the Inland Sea is in some way drained. Where or how that connection appear is not to be seen in her map, but in ours: If the Great Bay of Map V developed to the Bay of Belfalas it would make that connection and naturaly drain the Inland Sea through the lower dale of Anduin.
- As already mentioned the Ered Nimrais must have been pre-existing. But the eastern part must have been raised probably by the same process that formed the Bay of Belfalas.
- Umbar being at the tip of the Great Gulf is a bit unfortunate, but the process of creating the Bay of Belfalas could easily build the big promontory north of the Bay of Umbar.
- I don’t think that the change of the western coast of souther Hitherland was as drastic as Fonstad does make it. She does draw the coast along the Range of the Grey Mountains, and yes, such a change would be possible on our map as well. But the coast line could south of Umbar as well change to a more east to west course and even bent some what back north once the 200 miles west of Umbar that are covered by part III of the LotR-Map are reached. To join a bit farther west the old coast line of Map V. (In the result that part of the coast would look a bit like the Bay of Tunis in real world and make the Bay of Belfalas look even more like the Mediterainien Sea.
- All the Mountains of Mordor where volcanic, so they must not have been raised imidiatly, but could have been build in the first centaury of the Second Age, but probably the process started at once with all that pushing around and sinking of lands.
- That the Sea of Rhûn has no connection to the Inland Sea is unfortunate, but the Inland Sea draining more and more the sea ground might have lifted (see the lifting of Scandinavia by the lose of its permanent ice shield). With the addition of Ered Lithui forming the ups and downs of the land might have changed enough to move some of the watter 250 miles to the north.
- In the east part of the Red Mountains of Map V must as well have been destroyed, since we only see some faint remains of them in the Eastern Range on the Combined Map.
I don’t see any ‘no go’ in this. So I think we will take this combination as a working basis.
By the way: If we look back to all the atemps, in none of them would Adnuin have a chance to hit the western Sea! What so ever the relative scale or placement. Anduin does either hit the Inland Sea already in the superposition or is so much behind the souther Ered Luin that it surely would have found rather a farther course to the Inland Sea then to the Western Sea. Fonstad does reach that feature only by shifting the Inland Sea a big deal to the east. But even on her map I find the course of Anduin a bit forced since I see no good reason why the river should cut through the Mountains separating Emyn Arnen from Mindoloin when only a short distance to the East, where it would by guide to by these mountains, it would find the Inland Sea?

So now to a question raised earlier: Are we going to correct the depiction of Beleriand on Map V? I think yes. As in the text we do make korrektions according to changes later introduced. I as it is mentioned in the text I would as well ad the Ered Nimrais.

Respectfully
Findegil

gandalf85 · 03-17-2019, 05:08 PM

Wow, sounds like an exhaustive amount of work! Great job! Adding the White Mountains, the Hithaeglir and the Anduin River all sound reasonable. You're right, fixing Beleriand probably makes the most sense; it is similar to making corrections to the text. The course of the Anduin River seems like the feature causing the most trouble. I think having it flow into the Inland Sea makes the most sense, instead of "forcing" it like Fonstand appears to have done. The course must've somehow been diverted during the later changes in the World to make it flow into the Belegaer.

Findegil · 03-22-2019, 01:13 PM

Coming now to the Diagrams, we have the following labels and my conclusion what to do with them:
Diagram I:
- 2 . (upper right corner) => To be removed!
- AVA-KÚMA (twice) => KÚMA I think we should avoid Ava-Kúma = ‘Outer-Void’ and use only Kúma = Void. In that way we could argue with the same mistake of taking the empty space between the stars as the same as the Void beyond Eä.
- Earambar & Ilurambar => To be removed! As we have taken the Wall of Night to be more like a city wall we can not use it in the places of Ilurambar. For me removal is the safest way.
- VAIYA (above AMBAR) => VAIYA
- KÚMA (four times) => To be kept.
- Elenarda or Tinwe-malle => To be kept.
- Fanyamar => To be kept.
- Ilmen (twice) => To be kept.
- VISTA => To be kept.
- Aiwenóre => To be kept.
- A = This is probably a reference mark to Diagram III, but I think due to ist unclear use, we should remove it.
- Endor => Endon Endor was later used for all of Middle-earth, but here the midmost point is meant.
- PEL- MAR => To be kept? As this is in Map IV set with the addition “or Middel-earth” we could change it to “Endor”. We clearly will do the same in all 3 Diagram I, Diagram II and Map IV. But do we change it?
- Númen => To be kept.
- EAR (twice) => To be kept.
- Ambarendya => To be kept.
- Rómen => To be kept.
- Ando Lómin => To be kept.
- AMBAR => To be kept.
- MARTALMAR => To be kept.
- Hidden Half => To be kept. Even if this corosponces with the Note in left bottom I think we may still leave this in, since even for the inhabitants of Valinor, who could breathe Ilmen, these part of Ambar’s surface was hidden.
- VAIYA (below AMBAR) => EKKAIA
- Make world alway a globe but larger than now. Mountains of East and West prevent anyone from going to Hidden Half (Note at the bottom left) => To be removed! This is a projected change. But we are not able to do it, so we should leave it out.
- Arda The World: From Númen (West) to Rómen (East) => To be kept.
- Alter story of Sun ... (Note at bottom right) => To be removed! It would be interesting to know what the note said, but is clearly connected to the Round Earth Version that we rejected.

Diagram II:
- 2 . (upper right corner) => To be removed!
- ILMEN (twice) => To be kept.
- Earambar & Ilurambar => To be removed! As we have taken the Wall of Night to be more like a city wall we can not use it in the places of Ilurambar. For me removal is the safest way.
- KÚMA (twice) => To be kept.
- VAIYA (above AMBAR) => VAIYA
- Vista => VISTA I think we should regulary use capitals in all three Diagrams
- Endor => Endon
- PEL- MAR => To be kept? As this is in Map IV set with the addition “or Middel-earth” we could change it to “Endor”. Oppinions?
- Formen => To be kept.
- Harmen => [u]Hyarmen[/b]
- AMBAR => To be kept.
- VAIYA (below AMBAR) => EKKAIA
- MARTALMAR => To be kept.
- ILU => ARDA
- The World: From Formen (North) to Harmen (South) => The World: From Formen (North) to Hyarmen (South)

Diagram III:
- The Straight Path (twice) => To be kept.
- VAIYA => To be kept.
- ILMEN => To be kept.
- Valinor => To be kept.
- Eressëa => To be kept.
- WILWA (crossed out) => To be removed.
- A = This is probably a reference mark to Diagram I, but I think due to ist unclear use, we should remove it.
- Old Lands => To be kept.
- AMBAR => To be kept.
- New Lands => To be kept.
- Vista => VISTA
- The World after the Cataclysm and the ruin of the Númenoreans => To be kept.

There one farther point about the Maps:
- In Map V we have “Enchnated or Magic Isles”. We decisede not to us “Magic” for the work of the Valar. Therefore we must change it here to “Enchanted Isles”

In addition to the text and the diagrams and maps we have the list of cosmological words. What are we going to do with that?

Respectfully
Findegil

gondowe · 06-08-2019, 11:36 AM

Hello guys. Sorry for not been active. But my health is not as good as I would want, apart for my vision problems. I have re entered the forum for a while to see your work, and I would like to ask you a favour, if some one could send me to my email the Ambarkanta maps updated you have made. To add to my work. And left it more completed.
Thank you and greetings.

Arvegil145 · 09-06-2023, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

Fin, I think this solves nearly all of our problems! Marvelously done!

Amb-02: Agreed as well to the update, but perhaps we should change "About all the World" to "About all Eä" See below.

Amb-02.2-2.4: Agreed. Really good additions and editing.

Amb-3.5/5.5/6.5: Agreed.

Amb-06: I think since the Professor explicitly said he was most likely not thrust out of the universe entirely, we must accept his footnote that this was an inaccurate conflation of the Voids in Ea with the Void outside Ea. Therefore, I propose this editing: This way we make it that the door was in the Walls of Night, and opens onto Ea, per Tolkien's own note. We do not need to specify that he cannot return, because Earendil's guarding of the door already implies that. I think this solves our issue well.

Amb-06.2: I am unsure why this change is necessary to be honest. I don't see the difference in what is said.

Amb-07/07.1b: Agreed

Amb-09.1/11.1: Agreed

Diagrams and Maps: We can include them, although in an ideal world we would edit them, but that lies outside the scope of the project.

As per the Myths Transformed, Morgoth's spirit (after his body was executed by Mandos himself) was 100% thrown out of Ea - outside of Time and Space even:

Quote:

Morgoth was thus actually 'made captive in physical form' and in that form taken as a mere criminal to Aman and delivered to Námo Mandos as judge - and executioner. He was judged, and eventually taken out of the Blessed Realm and 'executed': that is 'killed' like one of the Incarnates.

But the most pertinent part of this discussion comes from just a few lines below the above quote:

Quote:

We read that he was then thrust out into the Void. That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.

Quote:

*[footnote to the text]: Since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

All of these quotes come from Morgoth's Ring, 'Myths Transformed', Text VII, p. 403

While I'm well aware that the cosmology in the MT is profoundly different than that in the Ambarkanta, I still think we should keep some of these passages - especially Morgoth's banishment outside of Time and Space (i.e. the metaphysical Void, and not just the outer space), even though I'm in favor of having a faaaar larger Ea (that is, space outside of Arda).

Of course, we should delete the references to the Solar System and such.

ArcusCalion · 09-07-2023, 06:22 AM

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

Arvegil145 · 09-07-2023, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcusCalion

It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately* to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda. both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.

Quote:

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru.

What makes you think that Eru DIDN'T intervene here? Eru is all-powerful, and an event such as Morgoth's execution and the defeat/decline of his spirit to the point of his core fea becoming a minute shell of his former greatness, would surely be enough to warrant Eru's involvement - to one degree or another.

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.

ArcusCalion · 09-07-2023, 09:28 AM

Tolkien explicitly says an intervention of Eru would be necessary for that reading, and then declines to ever give that reading credence. It seems untenable to assume it when he did not take the explicit chance to confirm it, rather treating it as unlikely. Basically he's saying 'that scenario would take a miracle.' Which is to say - it is unlikely to be the case.

As to the reading of the footnote I am genuinely unsure how your interpretation can be taken from his words. Taken as a continuous text, with the footnote absorbed into the main flow, it reads:

Quote:

That should mean that he was put outside Time and Space, outside Eä altogether; but if that were so this would imply a direct intervention of Eru (with or without supplication of the Valar). It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda, since the minds of Men (and even of the Elves) were inclined to confuse the 'Void', as a conception of the state of Not-being, outside Creation or Eä, with the conception of vast spaces within Eä, especially those conceived to lie all about the enisled 'Kingdom of Arda' (which we should probably call the Solar System).

he says the direct words SHOULD mean that he was thrust from Ea entirely, BUT that this would require a miracle (for which he implies there is no evidence) and thus it MAY refer INACCURATELY to his thrusting from Arda into the wider spaces of Ea SINCE Men were inclined to conflate the two in casual speech and concept.

I see no way in which this can mean he is implying that Men are claiming he is sent to space. His whole contention is that the 'texts' of the lore itself was a Mannish tradition, thus he uses the Mannish misconceptions to solve apparent contradictions in cosmology and science, such as this one.

Findegil · 09-11-2023, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Also, that footnote implies the exact opposite of what you said - it was the Men who thought that Morgoth was yeeted into space, while most of the Elves knew better.

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

Arvegil145 · 09-12-2023, 04:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Findegil

the question seem sto be what better knowldge the Elves had? And one probabilty is that the Elve believed neither in Melkors fëa been pushed out of the Kingdom of Arda (into Space out side the solar system, that would mean) nor that he was removed from Eä by an direct intervention of Eru, but rather thought that both these things were wrong manish assumptions.

But I tend to agree with ArcusCalion here, becuase a bit later only we read of healing and increasing of the fëa of Melkor after long ages out of the impotent stage it had been in. And that as long as it could not effect its revenge it would be 'as it were, a dark shadow, brooding on the confines of Arda, and yearning towards it.' Since the windows of Niëna's Halls looked out of Ea to the outer Voide could as well mean both, but How could we explain a sopposed return of Melkor, if Eru had removed him from Eä?

Anyhow we should be more explicit than the text is. It is for our readers to decised what they belive to be the true tale out of these equivalent oppions, not for us to deprive them of the choice!

Respectfully
Findegil

I think the passage in question should just stand as it is - and the reader can decide for themself.

03-04-2019, 08:56 PM	#18
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	Wow, that sounds like a lot of work! That's really cool, Fin! Responding to your points. 1. That seems reasonable to start. We can try to finalize what we wish to change/include, and if we wanted, somebody could re-create the maps for a final version. 2. I'd have to see how it looked to decide if a printed font works. I think changing it on the map directly is the best idea. They cost money, but the fonts from https://www.mytolkienbooks.com/tolkien-fonts/ would probably work best. 3. Map V is indeed pretty rough. - Not sure I entirely understand your question about the Anduin, I may need to look at the map itself to understand it. - Adding in Tol Eressëa and the shadowy Isle by combining Maps IV and V makes sense. - I agree that adding things (like forests or other rivers) by guessing isn't in the spirit of the project, I would simply clean up what Tolkien himself drew. - I agree with removing the attempt at the coast line from the mouth of the Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out branch of the Gelion. - I agree with you assessment that this line appears to be the Narog, along with tributaries to Lake Mithrim. I say we let it stand. - I think attempting to add the Yellow Mountains would involve too much guess work. It is reasonable to assume they were destroyed during the War of Powers. - I agree with all of your textual/legend changes. I'm OK with simply removing the labels showing the cardinal directions (north, north-west and the two souths), they do not add much to the map and are situated in confusing locations. Last edited by gandalf85; 03-05-2019 at 05:32 PM.

11-19-2017, 09:00 AM	#2
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 246	When I saw that your draft included the Ambarkanta as a single chapter, I thought for a time if it was possible. I decided not to include in spite of its importance because it was very problematic to make coherent with the rest. I had included some parts within the whole text. Now rethinking, I offer an edited version. If we want include as a text per se, this is my proposal. Sorry for the style of work. Of course, the editorial additions can be improved. I used the text of your draft. Ambacanta Composed byRúmil of Tirion in the Elder Days. Written here after the Tale Pengolodh the Wise told to the Wise of Númenor Of the Fashion of the World Amb-02 About all the World are the {Ilurambar}[Eärambar], or Walls of the World. They are as ice and glass and steel, being above all imagination of the Children of Earth cold, transparent, and hard. They cannot be seen, nor can they be passed Amb-02.1now, save by the Door of Night. Within these walls the Earth is globed: above, below, and upon all sides is Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean. But this is more like to sea below the Earth Amb-03 <editorial additon and is called Ekkaia,> and more like to air above the Earth. In Vaiya below the Earth dwells Ulmo. Above the Earth lies the Air, which is called Vista, and sustains birds and clouds. Therefore, it is called above Fanyamar, or Cloudhome; and below Aiwenórë or Bird-land. But this air lies only upon Middle-earth and the Inner Seas, and its proper bounds are the Mountains of Valinor in the West and the Walls of the Sun in the East. Therefore, clouds come seldom in Valinor, and the mortal birds pass not beyond the peaks of its mountains. But in the North and South, where there is most cold and darkness and Middle-earth extends nigh to the Walls of the World, Vaiya and Vista and Ilmen flow together and are confounded. Ilmen is that air that is clear and pure being pervaded by light though it gives no light. Ilmen lies above Vista, and is not great in depth, but is deepest in the West and East, and least in the North and South. In Valinor the air is Ilmen, but Vista flows in at times especially in Elvenhome, part of which is at the eastern feet of the Mountains; and if Valinor m darkened and this air is not cleansed by the light of the Blessed Realm, it takes the form of shadows and grey mists. But Ilmen and Vista will mingle being of like nature, but Ilmen is breathed by the {Gods}[Valar], and purified by the passage of the luminaries; for in Ilmen Varda Amb-04 ordained the courses of the <editorial additon newer> stars, and later of the Moon and Sun. From Vista there is no outlet nor escape save' for the Amb-05 {servants of Manwë}[Ainur], or for such as {he gives}[is given] powers like to {those of his people}[those of the Ainur], that can sustain themselves in Ilmen or even in the upper Vaiya, which is very thin and cold. From Vista one may descend upon the Earth. From Ilmen one may descend into Valinor. Now the land of Valinor extends almost to Vaiya, which is most narrow in the West and East of the World, but deepest in the North and South. The Western shores of Valinor are therefore not far from the Walls of the World. Yet there is a chasm which sunders Valinor from Vaiya, and it is filled with Ilmen, and by this way one may come from Ilmen above the earth to the lower regions, and to the Earthroots, and the caves and grottoes that are at the foundations of the lands and seas. There is Ulmo’s abiding-place. Thence are derived the waters of Middle-earth. For these waters are compounded of Ilmen and Vaiya and Ambar (which is Earth), since Ulmo blends Ilmen and Vaiya and sends them up through the veins of the World to cleanse and refresh the seas and rivers, the lakes and the fountains of Earth. And running water thus possesses the memory of the deeps and the heights, and holds somewhat of the wisdom and music of Ulmo, and of the light of the luminaries of heaven. In the regions of Ulmo the stars are sometimes hidden, and there the Moon often wanders and is not seen from Middle-earth. But the Sun does not tarry there. She passes under the earth in haste, lest night be prolonged and evil strengthened; and she is drawn through the nether Vaiya by the servants of Ulmo, and it is warmed and filled with life. Thus days are measured by the courses of the Sun, which sails from East to West through the lower Ilmen, blotting out the stars; and she passes over the midst of Middle-earth and halts not, and she bends her course northward or southward, not waywardly but in due procession and season. And when she rises above the Walls of the Sun it is Dawn, and when she sinks behind the Mountains of Valinor it is evening. But days are otherwise in Valinor than in Middle-earth. For there the time of greatest light is Evening. Then the Sun comes down and rests for a while in the Blessed Land, lying upon the bosom of Vaiya. And when she sinks into Vaiya it is made hot and glows with rose-colored fire, and this for a long while illumines that land. But as she passes toward the East the glow fades, and Valinor is robbed of light, and is lit only with stars; and the {Gods}[Valar] mourn then most for the death of Laurelin. At dawn the dark is deep in Valinor, and the shadows of their mountains lie heavy on the mansions of the Gods. But the Moon does not tarry in Valinor, and passeth swiftly o’er it to plunge in the chasm of Ilmen, [Footnote to the text: Ilmen-assa] for he pursues ever after the Sun, and overtakes her seldom, and then is consumed and darkened in her flame. But it happens at times that he comes above Valinor ere the Sun has left it, and then he descends and meets his beloved, and Valinor is filled with mingled light as of silver and gold; and the {Gods}[Valar] smile remembering the mingling of Laurelin and {Silpion}[Telperion] long ago. The Land of Valinor slopes downward from the feet of the Mountains, and its western shore is at the level of the bottoms of the inner seas. And not far thence, as has been said, are the Walls of the World; and over against the westernmost shore in the midst of Valinor is Ando Lómen the Door of Timeless Night that pierceth the Walls and Amb-06 opens upon the Void. For the World is set amid Kúma, the Void, the Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä{without form or time}. But none can pass the chasm and the belt of Vaiya and come to that Door, save the great Valar only. And they made that Door Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] was overcome and put forth into the Outer Dark; and it is guarded by {Earendel}[Eärendil]. The Middle-earth lies amidst the World, and is made of land and water; and its surface is the center of the world from the confines of the upper Vaiya to the confines of the nether. Of old its fashion was thus. It was highest in the middle, and fell away on either side into vast valleys, but rose again in the East and West and again fell away to the chasm at its edges. And the two valleys were filled with the primeval water, and the shores of these ancient seas were in the West the western highlands and the edge of the great land, and in the East the eastern highlands and the edge of the great land upon the other side. But at the North and South it did not fall away, and one could go by land from the uttermost South and the chasm of Ilmen to the uttermost North and the chasm of Ilmen. The ancient seas lay therefore, in troughs, and their waters spilled not to the East or to the West; but they had no shores either at the North or at the South, and they spilled into the chasm, and them waterfalls became ice and bridges of ice because of the cold; so that the chasm of Ilmen was here closed and bridged, and the ice reached out into {Vaiya}[Ekkaia], and even unto the Walls of the World. Now it is said that the Valar coming into the World descended first upon Middle-earth at its center, save {Melko}[Melkor] who descended in the furthest North. Amb-07 {But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. As is told they desired to make lamps, and Melko offered to devise a new substance of great strength and beauty to be their pillars.} And {he}[they] set up {these} great pillars north and south of the Earth's middle yet nearer to it than the chasm; and the {Gods}[Valar] placed lamps upon them and the Earth had light for a while. Amb-07.1 (Moved from above) But the Valar took a portion of land and made an island and hallowed it, and set it in the {Western Sea}[Great Lake] and abode upon it, while they were busied in the exploration and first ordering of the World. Amb-08 But the pillars {were made with deceit, being wrought of ice; and they melted, and the lamps fell in ruin, and their light was spilled. But the melting of the ice} were Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult made two small inland seas, north and south of the middle of the Earth, and there was a northern land and a middle land and a southern land. Then the Valar removed into the West and forsook the island; and upon the highland at the western side of the West Sea they piled great mountains, and behind them made the land of Valinor. But the mountains of Valinor curve backward, and Valinor is broadest in the middle of Earth, where the mountains march beside the sea; and at the north and south the mountains come even to the chasm. There are those two regions of the Western Land which are not of Middle-earth and are yet outside the mountains: they are dark and empty. That to the North is {Eruman}[Araman], and that to the South is {Arvalin}[Avathar]; and there is only a narrow strait between them and the corners of the Middle-earth, but these straits are filled with ice. For their further protection the Valar thrust away Middle-earth at the center and crowded it eastward, so that it was bended, and the great sea of the West is very wide in the middle, the widest of all waters of the Earth. The shape of the Earth in the East was much like that in the West, save for the narrowing of the Eastern Sea, and the thrusting of the land thither. And beyond the Eastern Sea lies the Eastern Land, of which we know little, and call it the Land of the Sun; and it has mountains, less great than those of Valinor, yet very great, which are the Walls of the Sun. By reason of the falling of the land these mountains Amb-08.2{cannot} could not be descried, save by highflying birds, across the seas which divide them from the shores of Midd1e-earth. And the thrusting aside of the land caused also mountains to appear in four ranges, two in the Northland, and two in the Southland; and those in the North were the Blue Mountains in the West side, and the Red Mountains in the East side; and in the South were the Grey Mountains and the Yellow. But {Melko}[Melkor] fortified the North and built there the Northern Towers, which are also called the Iron Mountains, and they look southward. Amb-09 <LQ 1 {But the}[And other] mountains were the Hithaeglir, the Towers of Mist upon the borders of Eriador; yet they were {taller}[tall] and {more} terrible in those days, and they were reared by Melkor to hinder the riding of Oromë.> And in the middle land there were the Mountains of the Wind, for a wind blew strongly there coming from the East before the Sun; and Hildórien the land where Men first awoke lay between these mountains and the Eastern Sea. But {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] where Oromë found the Elves is to the North beside the waters of {Helkar}[Helcar]. But the symmetry of the ancient Earth was changed and broken Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} when Valinor went out against Utumno, which was {Melko}[Melkor]’s stronghold, and {Melko}[Melkor] was {chained}[captured]. Then the sea of {Helkar}[Helcar] (which was the Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal (which was the Amb-11 <editorial addition ancient place of the> southern lamp) became a great sea flowing north-eastward and joining by straits both the Western and Eastern Seas. And the Earth was again broken in Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, when {Melko}[Melkor] was again overthrown, and it has changed ever in the wearing and passing of many ages.' But the greatest. change took place, when the First Design was destroyed, and the Earth was rounded, and severed from Valinor. This befell in the days of the assault of the Númenóreans upon the land of the {Gods}[Valar], as is told in the Histories. And since that time the world has forgotten the things that were before, and the names and the memory of the lands and waters of old has perished. Amb-02.1now. There are many problems in the cosmogony left by the professor. This is a humble way of fix them. Why Melkor could pass above the Walls is they are impenetrable? In my opinion we can add “now” because In the beginning of time could be passed, and after could not (except by the Door of Night) Amb-06.1 Eldest Darkness of Eä {without form or time}. As in the beginning of OVatTT. The Void is another matter unexplained. I consider two types of Void that must be explained (in my case in the list of names) The Void out of Eä, and the Void of Eä as the Outer Space out of Arda. But is a matter very difficult even for C. Tolkien. The same explanation would be for the name Eärambar. Amb-06.2 {when Melko}[in the time Melkor] Because is told Vingilot was set there before the War of wrath. Amb-07 and 7.1 per order of history. Amb-08.1 casted down by Melkor and the tumult per update history. Amb-08.2{cannot} could not Because is told is akallabeth that the Númenóreans saw the Gates of Morning from their ships. The Gates of Morning is supposed that were abandoned but was included in the last version of Akallabeth. They must be explained perhaps as an abstraction of the rising Sun? this is how I explained in my list of names. Amb-09.1 {in the first Battle of the {Gods}[Valar],} it was not the first battle. Amb-10 <editorial addition ancient place of the> northern lamp) became an inland sea or great lake, but the sea of {Ringil} Ormal this is very daring but is the only way I think can we maintain the south inland sea. The Inland Seas could be formed by the tumult and not only with the ice of the ancient pillars (in my opinion). Amb-11.1{the second battle} the War of Wrath, I think is better. Greetings

02-11-2019, 09:10 PM	#3
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Giving this thread a bump so it's easier to find.

02-15-2019, 11:22 AM	#6
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Let me respond to each of you separately Fin I agree that gondowe's "now" does not help, and I agree with the summary of the issue you've laid out. To me it seems that A) is our best option, since to make the interior spaces larger would be immensely difficult from a logical standpoint and from a narrative one. I think our best bet is to assume that the entire work treats mostly with Arda, since that, to me, is the only way that the cosmology makes sense. About ur points: - If we go with A) then the ice can be said to reach out to the walls of the world, which is supposed to be an example of the Helcaraxe. - Did you mean Vilya? In this case I agree, since Melkor passes through it without the aid of Manwe. - The chasm of Ilmen is also said to be between the shores of Valinor and the sea of Ekkaia in the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor when it describes the Moon sailing over Valinor and plunging into the chasm of Ilmen and chasing the stars beneath the world. But I agree it is an odd concept and a difficult one to understand. - I agree now about the lakes, and as gandalf said I added in that change in keeping with this idea. gandalf Our text does indeed say this, and it is part and parcel with these comments we need to address. It is indeed possible that the Walls of Night are different from the Walls of the World, but I do not think so. In any case this does not solve the issue. Melkor must be able to pass through the Walls of Night at will, but when he is thrust out of the Doors of Night (supposedly in the Walls of the World) he cannot return. This would lend one to think thus: 1) the walls of the world and the walls of night are different. 2) the walls of night enclose Arda while the walls of the world enclose Ea. 3) Melkor was thus thrust out of Ea which is why he cannot return. However, Tolkien explicitly says this is impossible, since no being can leave Ea until the End, as it is part and parcel with their nature that they are bound to Creation, except Men, who are strange. Therefore our neat vision is wrecked. We must seek other solutions: 1) This was a special case of Eru allowing it for the good of Arda - This would allow the neatest answer, since we would need to make no changes to the text, and would simply (as gandalf suggests) allow the reader to interpret the existence of two walls and chalk any confusion up to in-universe author imperfection. However, this is against the goals of the project. The whole project was designed to answer the question "What is canon?" therefore, leaving things that are wrong and chalking it up to in-universe error goes against the project's goals. That being said, the idea that Eru gave some special dispensation is possible, and we cannot outright discount it. 2) The two walls are different, and the building of the Door of Night is significant because it prevents reentry through the Wall of Night (around Arda), not because it opens through an impassable wall. - This one would solve the issue of the Valar passing over/through the Walls of Night to enter Arda. If we make them just enclose Arda, then the Valar can pass through them no problem, with the Walls of the World around Ea being the impassable ones. We can thus change every reference to the Walls of the World relating to Valinor or the distance from the land of Arda to the Walls of Night. The Door of Night could be significant because it prevents Melkor's reentry, not because it opens on the Void outside of Ea. The issue with this approach is that it is invented, but to be honest, the idea of there being two walls is in itself invented, and Tolkien must forgive us some clever invention to make this cosmology work. As for the other points: - Agreed with Fin about gondowe's change - I think we must leave them in because the Akallabeth is a very late source compared to this, so to remove it from there is something serious. I think we must try to include them if possible. - I think you are right in that Eru allowed them to enter Ea for the first time. We do not need to specify this. - If we take the Ambarcanta to only describe Arda, then it does not make the transition to our cosmology impossible. Once Valinor is removed 'into the realm of hidden things,' we can assume that Vaiya went with it. Then Ilmen becomes open to the spaces of Ea, enclosed within the Walls of Night (preventing Melkor from returning to Arda). But this allows the Sun and Moon to expand into Ea as well as other heavenly bodies which might have been in Ilmen previously. Ilmen then simly becomes our upper atmosphere. It makes enough sense that it shouldn't cause too much concern. - Thank you for posting this change, it slipped my mind!

02-17-2019, 12:50 PM	#10
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Amb-02/06: This is indeed a dilemma. Perhaps we could change Walls of the World to Walls of Creation. Because, as you say, 'the world' seems to refer to Arda, not Ea as a whole. Tolkien himself proposed the {Ilurambar}[Earambar] change, so I think a translation of this as Walls of Creation is certainly possible. Or we could simply say 'Walls of Ea'. As for Door of Night, as Fin says we must think of this more as a metaphysical barrier, having perhaps an anchor at a physical point, but its use is to keep Melkor out, as exemplified by the line about Earendil watching over it. We cannot further clarify this without essentially introducing fanfiction, and I think there is enough information at the moment for the reader to infer an explanation. As for the Gates of Morning, I have recently added them to my private draft of the chapter Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, and I can discuss them in that place when it comes time to review that chapter once more with Aiwendil.

02-17-2019, 07:59 PM	#13
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	The usage of World: OK, I agree with you guys, we should just leave "World" and "world" as unspecific. It would indeed be needlessly editorial. Melkor returning over the Walls of Night: I like the "soup bowl" metaphor, but it seems strange that the Valar would set Earendil to watch the Door of Night if Melkor can simply return at any point over the "rim" whenever he wants. I missed your comment about it being something not physical, Fin. I think that's the best explanation. Melkor biding his time would also make sense. Gates of Morning: You're right, this is ambiguous enough so it should be fine to leave it as is in the Akallabeth. Amb-06 and Amb-06.1 I agree to these changes, I think this makes it clearer. Amb-06.2: Oh, I get it now. Yes, I agree to Gondowe's proposed change. "In the time" is nice and vague. Amb-08.5b: I see why you made your original change now. This is indeed more clear. Diagrams and Maps: I agree we would have to edit them slightly if we decide to include them. I mentioned Fonstad's maps mostly as a compliment to her and using her as a contrast to the "lungs map" (http://aidanmoher.com/blog/wp-conten...nds_color.jpeg) which boggles my mind every time I see it. Numenor isn't even a star! Amb-02: Upon reflection, since we are going to use "World" in an unspecific way, I think it's better the way Fin has it. Adding in "Creation" like that feels like too much of an editorial intrusion on our part.

02-17-2019, 11:10 PM	#14
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	Amb-02: very well, leaving it as is works fine. Maps: Gods the lung map... it gives me extreme stress whenever I see it because I think of all the people who have been led astray by it.

02-18-2019, 11:45 PM	#15
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	I can only emphasis the compliment to Fonstad, The Historical Atlas is one of my favourite pieces of secondary literature on Tolkien’s World. And yes, the contrast to the “lungs map” could not be greater. I first set my eyes on that ridiculous thing in black and white print in David Day’s “Tolkien: The Illustrated Encyclopedia” (in the German translation, loan from a public libary, later unhappily I got the book as a gift). Even back then when I had not read more of Tolkien then The Hobbit, LotR and Sil77 I observed how obviously wrong this map was. In some aspects (like the Star shape of Numenor) the Author is not to be blaimed, because the work was really drawn quiet early, when Sil77 was the only source for the First and Second Age. But other aspects like the relative placing of Beleriand and Eriador or the freely placed features in ‘Undaying Lands’ he should have known better. In its over all composition this map skips one very important dimension: time. It draws together every thing that is every mention in all the ages of Arda. This concept could only lead to a worng picture. None the less the map had a lasting influence: Until The Shaping of Middle-Earth was published I think the shape of the western continent was in may maps based more or less on the shape it has in this map. Eärendil and the Door of Night: It is not like Eärendil standing guard at the portal. He is sailing in Vingilot upon Ilmen, I suppose. And that means he is more or less patrolling all the wide area (nearly a half-globe) of Vaiya where there is no Wall of Night. Respectfully Findegil

02-19-2019, 11:05 AM	#16
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	With that, I think this chapter is done! Fin, can you update it on the outline?

02-28-2019, 06:00 PM	#17
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	I have started to work on the Diagrams and Maps. I got relatively good scans of the them. First a view general points: 1. I am not willing to redraw all the Maps and Diagrams. Therefore I think we should use the original reproductions as given in HoME IV. 2. Readability of Tolkien’s hand writing on the reproductions is pure. I think we should remove all this and replace it by some printed font. ‘Rockwell’ is nearest to the font used on the map in the LotR that I had on my computer. Or do we give a list of all things written as Christopher Tolkien did in e.g. HoME IV; Map V and make or ubdates by copying letters? 3. As a matter of fact we have to change some things. But the question is how far do we go with this. I give her under a list of things I have changed already and would wish to hear your comments on these and any additional feature you think should be amended. I have started on Map V, which seems must difficult, since it is very rough and missing many essesnsital features, which we must added. In addition the covering of the lables is most difficult since the backround is flecked and smired grey. This Map must represent the state between the War of the Powers (Melkor captured in Utumno) and the War of Wrath (Angband destroyed). It is clearly only a rough sketch. Nonetheless we must work on it and with it: - I added Anduin and the Hithaeglir. For that I reconstructed first Tolkiens Map for the LotR that is given in HoME VII. Then I stitched it together with the map from Sil77 by bringing the Ered Luin of the First Age into agreement to that of the Third and fitting as good as possible Tol Fuin and Himling to Dorthonion and Himring. This combined Map I overlaid to Map V by fitting it to Hithlum, Dorthonion and the upper part of Ered Luin. (I wondered how nicely they fitted all together. The only feature that did not match nicely was the course of Duin Daer (Gelion), which is in the larger scale map from Sil77 much farther from the mountains. The coast line south of the Bay of Balar for example looked like a natural prolongation of the Sil77 map. One strange observation by the way: The coast line on the northern extent ion of the Map from HoME VII (Tolkien’s LotR map) is about the distance of the length of the Hithaeglir farther North than the northern most point on Map V!) Anduin does naturally flow into the Inland Sea and maybe we have to generalise the course of the river a bit more. Please let me know your opinion about that. - Tol Eressëa is missing completely on this map. I added it beside the magic Isle and the shadowy Isle, by combining Map IV to Map V by fitting the cost lines of Aman. - I would not add any farther details: In the original there are no woods so Mirkwood would be unwanted. Since we have no representation of the Third Age Iron Hills and The Sea of Rhun lay a bit north of the Inland Sea on Map V I would not add either of these. For Luhn, Baranduin or Mitheithel/Gwathló we have no idea if they cut through the Southern Ered Luin or if they rounded the Hithaeglir in the South and flowed into the Inland Sea. I find the later more probable. But since we don’t know we should not add them. - The false start of drawing the last part of the course of Duin Daer (Gelion, the southern crossed out branch) should go. I don’t see any other feature that was clearly ‘marked for deletion’ by Tolkien, but their might be some superficial lines: - In Beleriand we have what looks like a false start at the coast line from the mouth of Sirion to the mouth of the crossed out ‘branch’ of Duin Daer (Gelion), I think we should remove that. - There is a line running straight north-south crossing Hithlum and going into the bay of Balar just at the mouth of Sirion. In Hithlum it might be Rivers running into Lake Mithrim and in its southern part this might be a bad representation of Narog. We might let it stand. Please give me your opinion about it. - One question is if we should add the ‘Yellow Mountains’. It could of course be that they were destroyed / removed during the War of Powers. But I find it equally possible that they were just forgotten on Map V. If you think we should add them please give as well some indication of how you would find the right place. The script on this Map is in part really hard to read. Therefore I decided to remove them completely and give the following label in a font near to that used on the maps from LotR. On the original map we have some labels written in a bow (AMAN; HITHER LANDS and Walls of the Sun). I have tried to catch the bows more or less. What follows is how I worked with the labels: - Angband - Daidelos => Dor Daedeloth - Thangorodrim - Hithlum - Beleriand - We have the 3 acronyms ‘S’ for South in the middle of the continent ‘Africa’ and again as ‘S.’ in the South of the continent, ‘N’ for North in what would become Eriador and ‘NW’ for North-West in southern East-Beleriand. At least the northern ‘S’ must go. But I would remove them all. - Inland Sea - H I T H E R L A N D S - Straits of the World - Helcaraxe => Helcaraxë - Beleglorn Great Gulf => Belfalas Great Gulf - Great Seas - Alflon => Aqualondë - (Belegaer) - The 2 old English names Utgarsecg and Ingarsecg should be removed. - Bay of Fary => Bay of Eldamar - I would add ‘Tol Eressëa’ - Eruman => Araman - Outer Lands (Valinor) - Two Trees - Tún => Túna - Valimar - Taniqetil => Taniquetil - Arvalin => Avathar - The stroked out name Eruman south of the Bay of Fary should also be removed. - A M A N - Outer Seas - East Sea - Dark Land (South Land) - Walls of the Sun (I moved this nearer to the mountains to generate some space for the next entry.) - Burnt Land of the Sun (This label I turned and moved and bowed to fit it inside the continent it belongs to.) - Outer Seas - The text in the upper right corner reads: ‘After the War of the Gods (Arvalin was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mts.’ I think we change this to: ‘After the War of the Powers Araman was cast up by the Great Sea at the foot of the Mountains.’ Respectfully Findegil

03-06-2019, 01:51 PM	#20
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	I have finished the work on Map IV. Therefore here my changes: - This Map must represent the state after the Fall of the Lamps and the first fortification of Valinor but before the War of the Powers. Therefore the way of the Elves from Cuiviénen to Beleriand is anachronistic. I think we must remove it. - Tún: We should remove this as well, since at the time of this map Túna was not jet there. - Eldaros (Elvenhome): Same here, no Elves in Valinor so no name ‘Elvenhome’. - Bay of Elfland: And again, no Elves means no name ‘Bay of Elfland’. - The Enchnated or Magic Isles: In our text we tell that these Isle were put into the sea at the Hidding of Valinor. Therefore we must remove the Isles and the name. - The Shadowy Isles are a different case. In our text they are only once mentioned and that is in the vision of Tuor at the end of his talk with Ulmo. As we know nothing more the Isle could already be there at the time Map IV represents, so I would simply let them stand. - The Straits of Ice: Only the Helcaraxë is drawn. The other three are only written in. In addition we have an issue with the comparision between Map IV and Diagram II. The Straits of Ice are seen in the North-South-Cut of Diagram II, which means that they covered the full breadth of ‘Pelmar’. If that is so, do we show that in Map IV? If we do, it would be a lot of work and probably look a bit monoton, since we have not much to work with. At first I added drawings of the Straits of Ice only like that of the Helcaraxë and evnen that looked ‘forced’. (Luckily the Straits of Ice are neither named nor drawn in Map V.) - I would shy back from adding the Hithaeglir on this map, but I think we can assume that Angband was older and that the map represents the time between the building of Angband and the rearing up of the Hithaeglir. Labels to be used, from above left to below right: - ‘V’ written head down in the upper right corner is to be removed - North Formen - ‘The World about V.Y. 500 after the fall of the Lamps Helkar and Ringil and the first fortification of the North by Melko’ => ‘The World after the fall of the pillars of the Lamps Helcar and Ringil and the first fortification of the North by Melkor’ - Utumna => Where Utumna is marked on the Map in the later concept Angband was. Wherefore we should lable that dot ‘Angband’ - We should add ‘Utumno’ makred as similar dot about the center of the land behind the Iron Mountains. - Vaiya => Ekkaia - Helkarakse => Helcaraxë - Beleriand - Iron Mountains - Straits of Ice - Falasse => Falas - Northland - Eruman => Araman - ‘Westerness’: I think we must remove this since that word was later only used for Númenor. In its place I would here repeat ‘Westland’ - Blue Mountains - Red Mountains - Eastland - Shadowy Isles - Chasm of Ilma => Chasm of Ilmen - ‘Belegar or Great or West Sea’ => ‘Belegaer or Great or West Sea’ - ‘Sea of Helkar’ => ‘Sea of Helcar’ - Kuiviénen => Cuiviénen - West Númen - Valinor - Valmar - Mountains of Valinor - Taniqetil => Taniquetil - Tol Eressea => Tol Eressëa - Pelmar or Middle-Earth - Endon Earth-middle => Endor Earth-middle - Mid-land - Mts. of the Wind - Hildórien - East Sea - Lands of the Sun - Mts. or Walls of the Sun - East Rómen - Chasm of Ilmen - Arvalin => Avathar - ‘Westland or’ => Westland - Sea of Ringil - Chasm of Ilma => Chasm of Ilmen - Straits of Ice - Grey Mountains - Southland - Yellow Mountains - Straits of Ice - Vaiya => Ekkaia - ‘The Magic Isles & Tol-eressea are shown as they were placed much later.’: I think we should remove the Magic Isles and this note. - South Hyarmen Respectfully Findegil

03-07-2019, 07:16 PM	#21
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	Wow, I think the maps turned out great! Excellent work! The removals from Map IV: I agree with what you removed. I would keep the Shadowy Isles as it stands. The Straits of Ice: I think what you added to show the extent of the griding ice is great. It looks like mountains, but that is how Tolkien depicted the Helcaraxë. Hithaeglir: In chapter 3 of the Silmarillion it says the Hithaeglir were raised by Melkor to hinder the riding of Orome. I think it's safe to assume he settled in Angband before this. Westernesse: "Westland" makes sense to me. The Magic Isles and Tol Eressea: In the image you sent, it looks like you removed the Magic Isles but not Tol Eressea? I am hesitant about removing both the Magic Isles and Tol Eressea. I agree that it's weird to have a kind of superposition of maps from different eras in time, but that is personal preference and this is explicitly how Tolkien constructed the map. I would keep The Magic Isles and Tol Eressea, along with the note. Other notes: In Map IV, "Valinor" is misspelled as "Valionr". Also in Map IV, there looks to be some small text added in before "Easterness" which wasn't in the original map, and I can't read what it says.

03-08-2019, 05:34 AM	#22
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: Yes I removed the magic Isles because the Maps showes a time when these Isles were definitley not there. I think that Tolkien draw Map IV while he worked on the Ambarkanta but found then, that he had mixed up different times. In consequence he put in the note and made the shetchy Map V. Since I added some features to Map V, I think it is okay if we as well remove the anachronistic features in Map IV. I left Tol Eressëa because this was an existing Island when it was used to ferry the Elves. But of course the placemant is unsure and I am willing to remove it as well if that is preferd by the groupe. Hithaeglir: Melkor did not settle in Angband himself at this time but that he builded Angband first and then later raised the Hithaegilr was also my impression. Other Notes: - Valinor: Thanks for catching this misspelling. - The small word before Easterness is 'or'. In full the lable reads 'Eastland of Easterness' as in the original. I agree that the readability is pure. May be we should set the lables in that are printed in Sea, Ice or Mountains in a white frame, like it is in the original. What about the course of Anduin in Map V? Is that okay? Respectfully Findegil

03-09-2019, 10:40 AM	#23
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa : OK, after thinking about it, I agree to removing both of these so that our maps show one particular time period. Eastland of Easterness: You're right, it does say "Eastland of Easterness". In Tolkien's original "of" is just a scribble on top of lines depicting the water. In your edited version I would just increase the font of the entire phrase "Eastland of Easterness". Hopefully that makes the "of" more clear. The Anduin: Karen Wynn Fonstad has the path of the Anduiin slightly different (http://www.theonering.com/galleries/...n-wynn-fonstad). I'm not saying she's definitely right, just using it as comparison. How do we know the Anduin flows into the Inland Sea?

03-10-2019, 05:23 PM	#24
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: But Tol Eressëa was in existance. Therefore I did not remove it. Eastland or Easterness it is an 'or' not an 'of' we are speaking about. Similar an the shore of Aman was written in the original 'Westland or Westerness'. We can of course take a bigger skript. Anduin: Yes, Karen Wynn Fonstad came to an other result. I think she changed rather Map V and kept as much of the LotR map as she could, while I rather kept Map V and only added features from the LotR map. In that way she as well opened a pass in the southern Eastward bend of Ered Luin to let out the Baranduin and created a gap between these Eastward bended Ered Luin and the Ered Nimrais that she took from the LotR map. If we look at Map V, all this is one single mountain rnage going from the Iron Mountians in the north-west to the Straits of the World south-east. Fonstad also created an out flow of the Inland Sea. On can argue that such is outflow is necessary, but I am not so sure about that. We have some real world examples that don't have outflows. Anyhow between the time of Map V and the LotR map we have at least three Ages of the Trees plus about 600 years of the Sun and with the War of Wrath one mayor demiurgic conflict. Therefore I think, Map V is rather to be kept, because the differences to the LotR map are rather explained by the changes that occured in the time inbetween. In the combined map I made the course of Anduin naturly flowed into the Inland Sea. But maybe I must re-read how Fonstad combined the LotR map and Silmarillion map. Slight differences in scaling might lead to some of the differences and we have two scaling in between. Also it might be worth taking not the map from Sil77 but the one given in HoME. So I have to start again more or less from scrap. But since I this time I will take along the eastern extrension of the LotR map at least I will see if the the eastern Mountain Range on the LotR map is identical with the Orocarni or not. And once the features from the LotR map are added, the rest of the work (covering all the labels and unwanted features and addinbg the new labels) is not lost. Respectfully Findegil

03-14-2019, 05:17 PM	#25
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	The Magic Isle & Tol Eressëa: Yes, keep Tol Eressëa, I was sloppy in my response. Eastland or Easterness: You're right, it says "or".

03-17-2019, 05:08 PM	#27
gandalf85 Wight Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 121	Wow, sounds like an exhaustive amount of work! Great job! Adding the White Mountains, the Hithaeglir and the Anduin River all sound reasonable. You're right, fixing Beleriand probably makes the most sense; it is similar to making corrections to the text. The course of the Anduin River seems like the feature causing the most trouble. I think having it flow into the Inland Sea makes the most sense, instead of "forcing" it like Fonstand appears to have done. The course must've somehow been diverted during the later changes in the World to make it flow into the Belegaer.

03-22-2019, 01:13 PM	#28
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,720	Coming now to the Diagrams, we have the following labels and my conclusion what to do with them: Diagram I: - 2 . (upper right corner) => To be removed! - AVA-KÚMA (twice) => KÚMA I think we should avoid Ava-Kúma = ‘Outer-Void’ and use only Kúma = Void. In that way we could argue with the same mistake of taking the empty space between the stars as the same as the Void beyond Eä. - Earambar & Ilurambar => To be removed! As we have taken the Wall of Night to be more like a city wall we can not use it in the places of Ilurambar. For me removal is the safest way. - VAIYA (above AMBAR) => VAIYA - KÚMA (four times) => To be kept. - Elenarda or Tinwe-malle => To be kept. - Fanyamar => To be kept. - Ilmen (twice) => To be kept. - VISTA => To be kept. - Aiwenóre => To be kept. - A = This is probably a reference mark to Diagram III, but I think due to ist unclear use, we should remove it. - Endor => Endon Endor was later used for all of Middle-earth, but here the midmost point is meant. - PEL- MAR => To be kept? As this is in Map IV set with the addition “or Middel-earth” we could change it to “Endor”. We clearly will do the same in all 3 Diagram I, Diagram II and Map IV. But do we change it? - Númen => To be kept. - EAR (twice) => To be kept. - Ambarendya => To be kept. - Rómen => To be kept. - Ando Lómin => To be kept. - AMBAR => To be kept. - MARTALMAR => To be kept. - Hidden Half => To be kept. Even if this corosponces with the Note in left bottom I think we may still leave this in, since even for the inhabitants of Valinor, who could breathe Ilmen, these part of Ambar’s surface was hidden. - VAIYA (below AMBAR) => EKKAIA - Make world alway a globe but larger than now. Mountains of East and West prevent anyone from going to Hidden Half (Note at the bottom left) => To be removed! This is a projected change. But we are not able to do it, so we should leave it out. - Arda The World: From Númen (West) to Rómen (East) => To be kept. - Alter story of Sun ... (Note at bottom right) => To be removed! It would be interesting to know what the note said, but is clearly connected to the Round Earth Version that we rejected. Diagram II: - 2 . (upper right corner) => To be removed! - ILMEN (twice) => To be kept. - Earambar & Ilurambar => To be removed! As we have taken the Wall of Night to be more like a city wall we can not use it in the places of Ilurambar. For me removal is the safest way. - KÚMA (twice) => To be kept. - VAIYA (above AMBAR) => VAIYA - Vista => VISTA I think we should regulary use capitals in all three Diagrams - Endor => Endon - PEL- MAR => To be kept? As this is in Map IV set with the addition “or Middel-earth” we could change it to “Endor”. Oppinions? - Formen => To be kept. - Harmen => [u]Hyarmen[/b] - AMBAR => To be kept. - VAIYA (below AMBAR) => EKKAIA - MARTALMAR => To be kept. - ILU => ARDA - The World: From Formen (North) to Harmen (South) => The World: From Formen (North) to Hyarmen (South) Diagram III: - The Straight Path (twice) => To be kept. - VAIYA => To be kept. - ILMEN => To be kept. - Valinor => To be kept. - Eressëa => To be kept. - WILWA (crossed out) => To be removed. - A = This is probably a reference mark to Diagram I, but I think due to ist unclear use, we should remove it. - Old Lands => To be kept. - AMBAR => To be kept. - New Lands => To be kept. - Vista => VISTA - The World after the Cataclysm and the ruin of the Númenoreans => To be kept. There one farther point about the Maps: - In Map V we have “Enchnated or Magic Isles”. We decisede not to us “Magic” for the work of the Valar. Therefore we must change it here to “Enchanted Isles” In addition to the text and the diagrams and maps we have the list of cosmological words. What are we going to do with that? Respectfully Findegil

06-08-2019, 11:36 AM	#29
gondowe Wight Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 246	Hello guys. Sorry for not been active. But my health is not as good as I would want, apart for my vision problems. I have re entered the forum for a while to see your work, and I would like to ask you a favour, if some one could send me to my email the Ambarkanta maps updated you have made. To add to my work. And left it more completed. Thank you and greetings.

09-07-2023, 06:22 AM	#31
ArcusCalion Quentingolmo Join Date: Aug 2017 Posts: 525	It is precisely those passages that led to the reading we went with. The footnote you quoted, plus the statement It may however refer inaccurately to the extrusion or flight of his spirit from Arda.* both indicate that Tolkien's method of reconciling the narrative (Morgoth being thrust from the world into the Void) with his cosmological conception was to place any seeming contradiction onto Mannish misinterpretations of Elvish history: i.e. that Morgoth was thrust into the vast spaces of Ea around Arda, but due to Mannish confusion, they equated these spaces with the true Void of Uncreation that exists outside of Ea. If we were to say that Morgoth was TRULY thrust into the real Void, then we would need an indication of a direct act of Eru, per Tolkien's own note you quoted, and we have no such thing.