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07-23-2009, 05:18 PM
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#41 |
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Haunting Spirit
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: The Halls of Mandos
Posts: 86
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I think the line about Eöl is the most devastating to the theory of Thingol being one of the firstborn. I can't reconcile them at all, and thus I must say that Thingol was of the later generations.
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06-10-2010, 04:34 AM
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#42 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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An ampliation with an Appendix and other things
Hello everybody, what about you fellows?
Since my mother dies on 30th January (i hope she are with Morwen, she was Eledhwen too), I did not wrote here, but in February I received the last Parma Eldalamberon, and with the firs part of the Tengwesta, The Descent of Tonges, i made an Appendix new combining this with the text of the Essecenta and other language texts like the ancient Lammas and Of Dwarves and Men. And one thing brouth me to other and I introduced a change (minor in the context, but important). For me now re-reading the comments of CT, Eöl is not of the kin of Thingol. I think (correct me please) the last annotation of the professor is that Eöl was of the Teleri of the Hithaeglir, and the alussion that the relationship to Thingol would have point, could be a mere good relashionship of live in Nan Elmoth (represented by the gift of Anglachel). of course is an interpretation but for me the internal history is more coherent. What do you think? Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 06-13-2010 at 07:58 AM. |
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06-13-2010, 04:59 AM
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#43 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello again, connecting with the post above, I want to show you the last structure of the texts, naturally is a traduction from my "original" in spanish.
Translations from the Elvish Vol.1 Silmarillion Prologue (by me) Note on pronunciation. Note on the origins of the texts. Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar . Of the Valar . Of the Maiar . Of the Enemies Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils . 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees -Of Aulë and the Dwarves -Of the Ents and Eagles . 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor -Of the awakening of the Elves -Of the Chaining of Melkor . 4 Of Thingol and Melian . 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie . 6 Of Finwë and Míriel . 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor . 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel -Of the Orkor . 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor -Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna -Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor . 13 Of Dwarves . 14 Of the Sindar -Of the building of Menegroth -Of the coming of Denethor -Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand . 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor . 16 Of Men . 17 Of the return of the Noldor -Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath -Of Fingon and Maedhros . 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin . 19 Of the Siege of Angband -Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb . 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms -Of the dwellings of the Eldar . 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin . 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin . 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand -Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar -Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain . 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin -Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach -Of the Death of Fingolfin -Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor -Of the Swarthy Men . 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel -Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien -Of the Quest of the Silmaril -Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth -Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos . 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad -Of the Union of Maedhros -Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad . 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless . 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen . 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath -Of the Second Kin-slaying . 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin . 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star -Of the Third Kin-slaying . 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath -Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons -Of the Passing of the Elves -The Second Prophecy of Mandos Appendix A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR -Of naming -Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa -Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos -The Converse of Manwë and Eru -Of the severance of marriage -This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel" C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues -Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues -The division of Tongues -Of the speech of Dwarves -Of the Atani and their tongues -Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts) -Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves. -The Clan-names -The names of the descendants of Finwë -Elvish names for Men -Elvish names for the Dwarves -Elvish names for the Orcs -Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language" -Note on the "Language of the Valar" -Dangweth pengolodh -Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion) D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -The Tale of Adanel E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years. Genealogies Maps Translations from the Elvish Vol.2 Atanatarion ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian 1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian 2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy 3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape 4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien 5 Of Beren before Thingol 6 Of Beren in Nargothrond 7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron 8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath 9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond 10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron 11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin 12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband 13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth 14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril 15 Of the Escape from Angband 16 Of the Wolf-hunt 17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos -The choices of Lúthien Narn e·mbar Hador -Prologue . Narn e·’Rach Morgoth Narn i Chîn Húrin 1 The Childhood of Túrin 2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth 4 The Departure of Túrin 5 Túrin in Doriath 6 Túrin among the Outlaws 7 Of Mîm the Dwarf 8 The Land of Bow and Helm 9 The Death of Beleg 10 Faelivrin 11 Túrin in Nargothrond 12 The Fall of Nargothrond 13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin 14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil 15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond 16 Niënor in Brethil 17 The Coming of Glaurung 18 The Death of Glaurung 19 The Death of Túrin The Wanderings of Húrin -The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin -The Shadow falls on Brethil -Húrin in Nargothrond -Húrin in Doriath Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl 1 The birth and fostering of Tuor 2 The call of Ulmo 3 The arriving at Vinyamar 4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo 5 Voronwë 6 The quest of Gondolin 7 The hidden pass 8 The arriving at Gondolin 9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star 10 The Treason of Maeglin 11 The Fall of Gondolin 12 The Flight of the exiles 13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen 14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil 15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying 16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star Genealogies Map Translations from the Elvish Vol.3 The Second and Third Ages First Part The Second Age I Númenor Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor Epilogue Appendix 1 A description of the Island of Númenor 2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife 3 The line of Elros II Middle Earth Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans Of the return of Sauron Of Galadriel and Celeborn Of the Rings of Power Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor Of the last alliance of Elves and Men Appendix The Tale of Years of the Second Age Second Part The Third Age Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age -Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain -Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain -Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion -Of the Stewards -The Oath of Cirion and Eorl Of the Folk of Durin Of the Eldar in the Third Age Of the Istari Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel Appendix 1 The Heirs of Elendil 2 The Kings of the March 3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age 4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age. Third Part General Notes I Of Aman -Aman and Mortal men II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien V Of Amroth and Nimrodel VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain IX Of the origins of the Istari X Of the Elessar XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath -The faithful stone -Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath XII Of the Palantiri XIII Of the Quest of Erebor XIV Of the Hunt for the Ring -Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo -Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire XV Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen Fourth Part General guide of names Maps Greetings. Last edited by gondowe; 12-07-2011 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Revision |
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08-30-2010, 09:37 AM
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#44 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Nice to hear you are still active, Gondowe.
Sorry that we can not say the same about our own project. Concerning the contents of your projected books: What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included. Anyway, what I observed also is that you would try to bring both versions of the big tales: a short one in the body of the 'Quenta Silmarillion' and an extanded one in the collection of the 'Atanatarion'. Do you not fear that tahs might lead to a big deal of repeatition of one and the same text in all the places were the full versions of th ebig tales break off? Respectfuly Findegil |
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08-30-2010, 03:16 PM
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#45 |
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Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Good to see both of you around! I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, Gondowe, and I wish you the best.
I'm hoping to have some time to devote to getting our project moving again in the near future (within the next month or so). If October rolls around and you haven't heard more from me, please pester me about it! |
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08-31-2010, 06:57 AM
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#46 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
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09-02-2010, 01:09 PM
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#47 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello Findegil and Aiwendil
Nice to read you again, we are there till the end.
Thank you for about my mother, the battle against the cancer (send by Morgoth) was very hard. Findegil wrote. What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included. Its included as the last Appendix of Volume one. E Yenonotie. The Tale of Years. About the other matter, really its a case of repeatition, but I shortened anyway lots of it, (its a real pity that you cannot read it for being in spanish, to compare). Anyway I feel fine with it, because its the most approached to the knowed final structure projects of the professor, if Tolkien wanted to repeat the story, amen ( evidently with other words). But we only have what we have. What do you think about the matter of Eol in the post above. Greetings |
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09-26-2010, 11:46 AM
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#48 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Execuse me for answering so late, Gondowe!
I had to re-read a bit to make up my mind about Eöl an your question. For me the note: 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point' is a kind of call back for the first sentence of the earlier note ('Eöl should not be ...'). It is hard to bring all different story into order in ones mind. For me stil the best solution Tolkien came up with the story of a Tatyarin Avari. Since there was intermarraging between the clans he still could be a kin fo Thingol (who by the way seems to be akin to nearly everyone). Eöl being of Tatyarin blood would also explain why the marriage between his son Maeglin and Idril was out of question, when in other places a relatiuonship between first-cousins is allowed if the unrelated parents are not akin at all. I am sure that, if ever we came to the story of Maeglin, Eöl will give us a hard nut to crack. That Eöl had a relation to Thingol simply by living in Nan Elmoth is a given, so that does not explain (for me at least) what Tolkien meant with 'but the relationship to Thingol would have a point'. That Thingol is of a born genaration and not one of the awoken 144 is asured by him having a 2 brethern. Therefore we would not need Eöl to make that clear. In the end it all will come down to close examination of the time when all these notes were written. I had no time to do that right now. So it has to wait for some other kind soul. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-27-2010, 02:53 AM
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#49 | ||
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello, Findegil
This discussion can serve you for preparation when you arrive at the Tale of Aredhel and Eöl and Maeglin. Quote:
Quote:
Greetings. |
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09-27-2010, 03:09 AM
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#50 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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By the way, I have revised another point of divergence between yours and my text, mentioned in another post and want to share with you. That of the mention of a Third elder son of Orodreth. I stiil think he can be suitable for the story (better with other name suggested by Tolkien), but I had named him Haldir as the later form Tolkien adopted, and I had not repared (inexplicably) in the elf of Lorien in TLotR, so I changed it by Halmir, the earlier name.
So the only repeated elven name would be the "imposible to change" Rumil. Greetings |
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09-29-2010, 11:09 AM
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#51 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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What about Galdor and Legolas? Or are they out of your version of the Fall of Gondolin? Or are you onmy side, when I argue that both of them could be the same person in Gondolin and Imladris?
What bothers me about Halmir/Haldir son of Orodreth is that in part at least the leader of Brethil with a very similar name took ofer the part in the story that this son of Orodreth has. => Slain by Orks when barring the way to Nargothrond at a similar time. Okay the death of a Man would not embitter Orodreth that much even so he might have been a close ally, which is unlikley considering the policy of secrecy. But still it seems to be to much repetition. And it is again a repetition when Finduilas the daughter is slain a similar cruel way by the orks later on in the story. About Eöl: Yes the discussion will be helpful for sure. I agree that it is dificult to stick to idea of Eöl being of Tatyarin origin. But as said already he proberbly has a mixed origin with a strong Tatyarin-Avari strain. But here again it is the information combiner that speaks. And that side of myself the one that must restriced by others in our project to secure some succes at all. Respectfuly Findegil |
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09-30-2010, 07:21 AM
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#52 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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In the case of Legolas/Galdor, at the beggining of this thread I said that had been replaced Legolas by Galdor in the Fall of Gondolin, because I think Legonas must not be the same as in TLotR but Galdor can be the same, as Glorfindel.
In the matter of the repetition, I agree with you that a man and an elf with the same name in the same period is a bit shocking, but we have not other name from Tolkien himself. In other way it could be rare that an elf take a name of a man (like Haldir of Lothlorien), I think in every case is inversely. A similar dead of Finduilas and Halmir as brothers, I think can even reinforce the narrative. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 09-30-2010 at 03:19 PM. |
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03-07-2011, 03:38 AM
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#53 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello again fellows, a days ago I have updated in the post above the structure of chapters in the Vols 1 and 2 of my version. Apart of other minor changes, the major was the inclusion of the story of Eärendil in the last tale of the Atanatarion.
I decided to do it because follow your version I did take the decision of include verse material, that makes an elongation of the text. To the fragment of the lay of Eärendel (that I located at Nan-tathren ) and the Horns of Ylmir, after; and at the mention of the Sleeper of the Tower of Pearl, I added The happy mariners. And in the end when Eärendil is raised, I finished the Atanatarion with first The bidding of the minstrel, then Eala Eärendel engla beorthast, and last with The shores of Fäery. In my concept of a book for the QS, (a resume of the tales), and another for the Atanatarion, the story must end with the Raising of the Star, and the Great end of the First age, must belong only to the QS. If you think seeing my concept, what do you think? Greetings |
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03-08-2011, 10:28 AM
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#54 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Nice to read from you again Gondowe!
'The happy Mariners' did not make it into our version, because we thought that the tale told in it must come from a later age. Look at this thread for the discussion we had about that poem. Especially my post 91, were I confinced myself that the happy mariniers are Teleri-Elves sailing from Eldamar to the east to fill their ship with 'oriental sparks' and encounter the lonely singer in the tower of pearl when they are on their way back to Eldamar. Gondowe wrote: Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil |
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03-12-2011, 05:14 AM
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#55 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello Findegil, ok, first of all, in my opinion, its only a song , not necessarily "canonically real or perfect".
But apart for the "inexplicably" mention of Gondobar, I don't see anything that gives me the impression that they go to the east. They go to the land of the Two Trees, and the orient fire is of the sun from the east in the rear of the ship. (Of course is an oppinion, a mode of see, of understand the song). Of course we can omit the verse of Gondobar, but for example, a very nice option for me, is that we can change Gondobar for Eressëa, that is the place in what I always think when read the allusion of Gondobar. But these changes are easier for me that the texts in Spanish have not rhyme. Could you combine the older and the last versions of the poem? ....Thus they escaped their enchantment. I know a window in a Western tower ...... beyond the country of the shining Trees. For at last Eärendil and his companions came into the Shadowy Seas and passed their shadows..... Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 03-13-2011 at 07:45 AM. |
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05-10-2011, 01:56 AM
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#56 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Again, with the addition of a Prologue written by me (in what I cited and gave thanks to this forum), I have updated the chapter structure of the whole work. Previously I had included in a part of general notes, every text I had edited apart, like the texts of the Unfinished Tales, and things like those. Now I have to said that with this three volumes and The Hobbit and TLOTR, the very whole, whole "historical" material written by Tolkien, is included in a continuum of five books. Now it only rests future modifications derived from discussions of this forum, and future publications of new material.
Greetings |
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01-26-2012, 02:17 PM
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#57 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello fellows again, I have been father for second time on October 27th, and I have been very busy. With two childes at home, we have no time to be bored. And it will be for time, but I´ll try to collaborate in the measure I could.
For the moment in the few times I had and could, I finished (naturally for the moment) the whole project of the Red Book, adapting the texts of the Hobbit and TLOTR, in one volume (changing the three first chapters of the first one for those written in the 60s and rejected (published in The History of the Hobbit)), and elaborate a "fifth volume with the hobbit material from the Appendix of TLOTR, with the poems in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. With that I have a sort of "Compilation from the copy of Findegil of Gondor of the Thain´s Book". Greetings |
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09-10-2015, 09:42 AM
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#58 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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This is a fixed (from December 2011 and actually) structure of my “Copy from Findegil of Gondor of the Thain’s Book” in order of serving of future guide or reference.
First of all there is a small volume containing Prologues, Prefaces and Notes from Tolkien extracted from TLOTR as well as my own notes and prologues. So: Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names) Note preliminary to this edition (from me) Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE Note of the author on pronunciation Note of the author on Writing and spelling Note of the author on the Shire Records Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE Note of the author on translation to modern language Nomenclature of TLotR General Guide of Names Volume 1 The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King (the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue) Volume 2 Translations from the Elvish Silmarillion Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar . Of the Valar . Of the Maiar . Of the Enemies Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion or History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils . 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees -Of Aulë and the Dwarves -Of the Ents and Eagles . 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor -Of the awakening of the Elves -Of the Chaining of Melkor . 4 Of Thingol and Melian . 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie . 6 Of Finwë and Míriel . 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor . 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel -Of the Orkor . 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor -Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna -Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor . 13 Of Dwarves . 14 Of the Sindar -Of the building of Menegroth -Of the coming of Denethor -Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand . 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor . 16 Of Men . 17 Of the return of the Noldor -Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath -Of Fingon and Maedhros . 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin . 19 Of the Siege of Angband -Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb . 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms -Of the dwellings of the Eldar . 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin . 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin . 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand -Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar -Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain . 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin -Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach -Of the Death of Fingolfin -Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor -Of the Swarthy Men . 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel -Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien -Of the Quest of the Silmaril -Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth -Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos . 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad -Of the Union of Maedhros -Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad . 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless . 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen . 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath -Of the Second Kin-slaying . 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin . 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star -Of the Third Kin-slaying . 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath -Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons -Of the Passing of the Elves -The Second Prophecy of Mandos Appendix A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR -Of naming -Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa -Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos -The Converse of Manwë and Eru -Of the severance of marriage -This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel" C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues -Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues -The division of Tongues -Of the speech of Dwarves -Of the Atani and their tongues -Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts) -Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves. -The Clan-names -The names of the descendants of Finwë -Elvish names for Men -Elvish names for the Dwarves -Elvish names for the Orcs -Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language" -Note on the "Language of the Valar" -Dangweth pengolodh -Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion) D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -The Tale of Adanel E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years. F Ambarcanta The shaping of the World Genealogies Maps Volume 3 Translations from the Elvish Atanatarion ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian 1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian 2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy 3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape 4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien 5 Of Beren before Thingol 6 Of Beren in Nargothrond 7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron 8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath 9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond 10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron 11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin 12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband 13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth 14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril 15 Of the Escape from Angband 16 Of the Wolf-hunt 17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos -The choices of Lúthien Narn e·mbar Hador -Prologue . Narn e·’Rach Morgoth Narn i Chîn Húrin 1 The Childhood of Túrin 2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth 4 The Departure of Túrin 5 Túrin in Doriath 6 Túrin among the Outlaws 7 Of Mîm the Dwarf 8 The Land of Bow and Helm 9 The Death of Beleg 10 Faelivrin 11 Túrin in Nargothrond 12 The Fall of Nargothrond 13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin 14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil 15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond 16 Niënor in Brethil 17 The Coming of Glaurung 18 The Death of Glaurung 19 The Death of Túrin The Wanderings of Húrin -The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin -The Shadow falls on Brethil -Húrin in Nargothrond -Húrin in Doriath Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl 1 The birth and fostering of Tuor 2 The call of Ulmo 3 The arriving at Vinyamar 4 The speech of Tuor and Ulmo 5 Voronwë 6 The quest of Gondolin 7 The hidden pass 8 The arriving at Gondolin 9 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star 10 The Treason of Maeglin 11 The Fall of Gondolin 12 The Flight of the exiles 13 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen 14 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil 15 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying 16 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star Genealogies Map Volume 4 Translations from the Elvish The Second and Third Ages First Part The Second Age I Númenor Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor Epilogue Appendix 1 A description of the Island of Númenor 2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife 3 The line of Elros II Middle Earth Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age Of the Men of Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans Of the return of Sauron Of Galadriel and Celeborn Of the Rings of Power Of the attack of Sauron against Eregion Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor Of the last alliance of Elves and Men Appendix The Tale of Years of the Second Age Second Part The Third Age Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age -Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain -Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain -Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion -Of the Stewards -The Oath of Cirion and Eorl Of the Folk of Durin Of the Eldar in the Third Age Of the Istari Of the last end of Sauron and the beginning of the dominion of Men Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel Appendix 1 The Heirs of Elendil 2 The Kings of the March 3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age 4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age. Third Part General Notes I Of Aman -Aman and Mortal men II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien V Of Amroth and Nimrodel VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain IX Of the origins of the Istari X Of the Elessar XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath -The faithful stone -Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath XII Of the Palantiri XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen Maps Volume 5 On Hobbits Of the Quest of Erebor Of the Hunt for the Ring -Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo -Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire Shire Calendar The Tale of Years (on hobbits) -The Great Years -The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age -Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring Family Trees Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem) Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 12-11-2017 at 05:22 AM. |
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09-10-2015, 02:04 PM
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#59 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Hey, why don't you post this in the **unofficial Silmarillion outline** - I think it would be very helpful for the project - and it needs discussion. Greetings, Arvegil145 (though I want to change my name
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09-10-2015, 02:20 PM
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#60 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Because is written in this thread and here can be watched and it was posted years ago. This is my project and my chapter structure, not of this forum, in this forum, from many more years ago, had another chapter structure, but at last the composing of the texts is what matters and have the same "historical" information. That is what we have to discuss first.
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09-10-2015, 02:29 PM
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#61 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Well, I say that because I think your outline is excellent, and I'm saying that it should be included in the thread about the outline because, with some polishing it could be the DEFINITIVE outline! 
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09-10-2015, 03:08 PM
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#62 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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09-10-2015, 03:16 PM
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#63 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Where did you find those chapters? Or did you make it up? I have also found a need to insert sub-chapters into "Tuor" - after all the story is 35,000 words long, and it looks ridiculous to have such a substantial chapter with no headings at all.
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09-10-2015, 06:43 PM
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#64 | |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Ah, gondowe, nice to read from you again!
Of course your chapter structure generates some questions: What is the Content of '-Of the Orkor in your Silmarillion? How did avoid simple repeation of text passages when you include both, the short chapters in the Silamrillion and the end of the Atanatarion which foresure is constructed from the same material? Should not 'Of the Dwarves and their relations with Men' come earlier? I think that what is in there is from Of Dwraves and Men. If so it refers to the time before the Fall of Eregion. But then it tells so at the end, so yes, probably structur works best in that way. Posted by Arvegil145: Quote:
Respectfuly Findegil P.S.: Arvegil145 please restirct your quoting to what is necessary as a reference to what you to comment on. Nobody will read through gondowe's structure a second time only because you reposted it. |
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09-11-2015, 08:24 AM
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#65 | ||||
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Here I am again. Fastly, with little time.
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"Findegil wrote. What I miss is a tale of the years of the first age. I know that we have that only for the last couple of years but I still think in your kind of project it should be included. Its included as the last Appendix of Volume one. E Yenonotie. The Tale of Years. About the other matter, really its a case of repeatition, but I shortened anyway lots of it, (its a real pity that you cannot read it for being in spanish, to compare). Anyway I feel fine with it, because its the most approached to the knowed final structure projects of the professor, if Tolkien wanted to repeat the story, amen ( evidently with other words). But we only have what we have." Quote:
 .Arvegil145 I named Prologue to the text from the beginning of TCoH till is said Turin had 5 years. I though it was a "common history" to both "House of Hador Texts" As for the chapter structure of Tuor, yes, they were more or less invented, but was discussed in this thread near the beginning. Quotation from Post 8 Quote:
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09-12-2015, 05:34 PM
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#66 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Thanks for the info, gondowe, and for the reminder.
Respectfuly Findegil |
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12-11-2017, 05:31 AM
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#67 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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First of all sorry for bring this thread again to the first place. I only want to explain some of my thoughts about the project in my version.
That’s derived from the recent commentaries about the inclusion of philological texts into the narrative. In my opinion there is enough philological material to make one great volume or several. And I don’t think this must be the proposal of this project, for me is clear what I want, and this will not be my work. It is necessary to include all material explaining the origin of the languages and its relations, historical texts; and insert into the narrative those paragraphs and sentences that provides historical, descriptive, etc information if is inserted much material including philological roots, stems, etc in my opinion don’t work, and it would have to be added such works like: Rivers and beacon hills, notes on Óre, Eldarin fingers, hands and numerals, the whole etimologies with its addendas, the whole text of WPaP, The lexicons, Ros, whole Shibboleth, whole Q&E, whole Descending of tongues, qenya and noldorin verb and noun structures, alphabets, etc, etc, etc all published in PE and VT. Well, I resolve some things by adding some information in the guide of names that I constructed and finally inserted in my volume 0, but this guide is out of the narrative, and if I think in my own preferences I only want to read a story, and the linguistic part left to the professionals that is what was the professor. If I want to see linguistic information I go to the sources. I have a pity that from the beginning, much time before I discovered this page, even much time before this page was created, I started my project in spanish and without the source notes marks (I was much less professional than you), and it's too late for me to retranslate and give the source marks that in many places I don't remember from where were. I work now only by memory because I have my books printed many years ago, and only from time to time I reprint them with accumulated minor changes in many cases better retranslations. And that’s what I want, reprint again and hope for the last time, and enjoy with the work, because I’m growing old and have a severe eye illness. This project is endless, because there are for sure much more material unpublished, and of course the work in this page will make me do minor changes. Lastly I want to include in this post the structure updated with the addition of my edited Ambarcanta that in its time didn’t want to include mostly because of lacking of original and useful professor maps (unless it be used maps from other sources like, say, Mrs. Fonstad). But now I changed my mind and decided include it. Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names) Note preliminary to this edition (from me) Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE Note of the author on pronunciation Note of the author on Writing and spelling Note of the author on the Shire Records Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE Note of the author on translation to modern language Nomenclature of TLotR General Guide of Names Volume 1 The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King (the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue) Volume 2 Translations from the Elvish Silmarillion Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar . Of the Valar . Of the Maiar . Of the Enemies Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils . 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees -Of Aulë and the Dwarves -Of the Ents and Eagles . 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor -Of the awakening of the Elves -Of the Chaining of Melkor . 4 Of Thingol and Melian . 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie . 6 Of Finwë and Míriel . 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor . 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel -Of the Orkor . 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor -Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna -Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor . 13 Of Dwarves . 14 Of the Sindar -Of the building of Menegroth -Of the coming of Denethor -Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand . 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor . 16 Of Men . 17 Of the return of the Noldor -Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath -Of Fingon and Maedhros . 18 Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin . 19 Of the Siege of Angband -Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb . 20 Of Beleriand and its Realms -Of the dwellings of the Eldar . 21 Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin . 22 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin . 23 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand -Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar -Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain . 24 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin -Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach -Of the Death of Fingolfin -Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor -Of the Swarthy Men . 25 Of Beren and Tinúviel -Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien -Of the Quest of the Silmaril -Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth -Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos . 26 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad -Of the Union of Maedhros -Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad . 27 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless . 28 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen . 29 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath -Of the Second Kin-slaying . 30 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin . 31 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star -Of the Third Kin-slaying . 32 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath -Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons -Of the Passing of the Elves -The Second Prophecy of Mandos Appendix A Cuivienyarna The legend of the awakening of the Quendi B LAWS AND CUSTOMS AMONG THE ELDAR -Of naming -Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa -Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos -The Converse of Manwë and Eru -Of the severance of marriage -This judgement is known as the "Stature of Finwë and Míriel" C Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues -Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues -The division of Tongues -Of the speech of Dwarves -Of the Atani and their tongues -Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts) -Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves. -The Clan-names -The names of the descendants of Finwë -Elvish names for Men -Elvish names for the Dwarves -Elvish names for the Orcs -Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language" -Note on the "Language of the Valar" -Dangweth pengolodh -Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion) D Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -The Tale of Adanel E Yénonótie. The Tale of Years. F Ambarcanta The shaping of the World Genealogies Maps Volume 3 Translations from the Elvish Atanatarion ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian 1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian 2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy 3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape 4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien 5 Of Beren before Thingol 6 Of Beren in Nargothrond 7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron 8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath 9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond 10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron 11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin 12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband 13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth 14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril 15 Of the Escape from Angband 16 Of the Wolf-hunt 17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos -The choices of Lúthien Narn e·mbar Hador -Prologue . Narn e·’Rach Morgoth Narn i Chîn Húrin 1 The Childhood of Túrin 2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth 4 The Departure of Túrin 5 Túrin in Doriath 6 Túrin among the Outlaws 7 Of Mîm the Dwarf 8 The Land of Bow and Helm 9 The Death of Beleg 10 Faelivrin 11 Túrin in Nargothrond 12 The Fall of Nargothrond 13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin 14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil 15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond 16 Niënor in Brethil 17 The Coming of Glaurung 18 The Death of Glaurung 19 The Death of Túrin The Wanderings of Húrin -The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin -The Shadow falls on Brethil -Húrin in Nargothrond -Húrin in Doriath Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl 1 The birth and fostering of Tuor 2 The call of Ulmo 3 Tuor in Vinyamar 4 Voronwë 5 The quest of Gondolin 6 The hidden pass 7 The arriving at Gondolin 8 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star 9 The Treason of Maeglin 10 The Fall of Gondolin 11 The Flight of the exiles 12 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen 13 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil 14 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying 15 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star Genealogies Map Volume 4 Translations from the Elvish The Second and Third Ages First Part The Second Age I Númenor Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor Epilogue Appendix 1 A description of the Island of Númenor 2 Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife 3 The line of Elros II Middle Earth Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age Of the Return of the Shadow Of Galadriel and Celeborn Of the Rings of Power Of Men in Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans Of Dwarves and their relations with Men Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor Of the last alliance of Elves and Men Appendix The Tale of Years of the Second Age Second Part The Third Age Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age -Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain -Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain -Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion -Of the Stewards -The Oath of Cirion and Eorl Of Durin's Folk Of Eldar in the Third Age Of the Istari Of the Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel Appendix 1 The Heirs of Elendil 2 The Kings of the March 3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age 4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age. Third Part General Notes I Of Aman -Aman and Mortal men II Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death III Of the Númenórean Linear Measures IV Of the boundaries of Lothlórien V Of Amroth and Nimrodel VI Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló VII Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur VIII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain IX Of the origins of the Istari X Of the Elessar XI Of the Drúedain and the Periannath -The faithful stone -Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath XII Of the Palantiri XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen Maps Volume 5 On Hobbits Of the Quest of Erebor Of the Hunt for the Ring -Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo -Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire Shire Calendar The Tale of Years (on hobbits) -The Great Years -The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age -Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring Family Trees Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem) Sorry for the extended thoughts, this is only my opinion and I wanted to share it with all of you. And for sure I have more things to say but now I don’t have in mind. Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 11-04-2018 at 01:07 PM. |
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12-11-2017, 10:51 AM
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#68 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Gondowe this project is immense and inedible and a real inspiration! This outline is incredible, and is actually closer to what I had in mind in my younger years. I may very well attempt a similar thing at some later date. This is also an excellent outline, and you should be immensely proud of what you've accomplished!!
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12-12-2017, 04:51 AM
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#69 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Thank you Arcuscalion. In my humble opinion this is the most closer concept the professor would think in a later time, at least according to the structure showed in the beggining of TLotR of the Thains book.
As I said before in other place, I like very much the Aelfwine trassmision but unfortunately, the hobbits are the official published way, and so, this structure of texts. We have the material we have (till now) and we must work with it. But at the end, the "historical" subcreational information is the same in whatever structure. Greetings |
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11-04-2018, 01:25 PM
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#70 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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After reading The Fall of Gondolin (new publication), I decided to retitle one of my invented subchapters and grouping the subchapters 3 and 4 into only one entitled "Tour in Vinyamar" (as CT call in this new book)
Not important for you, I know, but I wanted to share the update in my text. Greetings |
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09-05-2021, 01:59 AM
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#71 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hello. Hello. How's it going everyone. I am sorry that I have not been able to participate in anything these years. Although I see that there was not much activity anyway.
I am writing this to say that I am already in the process of reading the new TNoME book. And that I am willing to discuss the implications it may have on the TftE. I guess you guys are reading it too. At the moment the first impression about the Time and Aging part is that it is very difficult to implement it in the chronology except for parts of the beginning. Of course I have to mature it more but I see it very difficult. Yes, there are phrases and paragraphs that can be inserted into the text. Last edited by gondowe; 09-11-2021 at 03:38 PM. |
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09-14-2021, 11:14 AM
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#72 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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Hello gondowe,
I am 1/3 through the book. Besteht read since a long long time. And yes, it will have some impact in the project for sure. Respectfully Findegil |
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09-14-2021, 12:35 PM
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#73 |
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Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have begun the final third of the book, and already I think we can resolve the questions around dating and the length of the Valian Year, as well as new material to discuss about the awakening of Men and its place on the timeline. We also have some substantial new works, most of which will tie into Volume 3 of our project, especially in my (not yet posted) draft for The Laws and Customs of the Eldar. We can also discuss implications once more of the round world/flat world change, and the age of the Sun and Moon, although I suspect that we will stick with the original flat world/mythical sun and moon version. It's an exciting time for Tolkien fans, and this project in particular!
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09-17-2021, 11:45 PM
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#74 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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Hi there. I already finished reading it days ago and it is clear that from parts II and III there is a lot of material that can be inserted in addition to what is already known.
But my main problem is how to handle the new chronology and make it consistent with the text. To begin with, it is clear that Tolkien always thought and wanted the three ambassadors to be First Born. But in the new concept he realized that it did not work and that is why he created the Cuivienyarna. So in principle I am tempted to incorporate the alternative version that the ambassadors were I, T and E with I, F and E. That way one could keep the descriptions of the Awakening that Manwë is told in the LT (something desirable). And then this is if it is better to set the awakening at VY850 or 1000 or 1050. Then in my opinion I believe that the Flat World should be maintained and the Awakening of Men with the first sunrise. Other things to consider modifying would be the date of birth of Galadriel, Maeglin, ... Finduilas and Gilgalad (but Orodreth !!!!). Greetings |
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09-06-2023, 10:17 AM
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#75 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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I want only to update the estructure of my proposed Thain's Book. That was enlarged considerably after the NoME and CtH and The Cronology of TLotR. I know is not according with this project but for f is of some interest. I don't want to extend my comment on the narrative because is so difficult but the "new" Appendices contains all the (in my oppinion) worthy text useful.
Volume 0 Introduction to the Texts of the Histories of Arda (Prologues, notes and guides of names) Note preliminary to this edition (from me) Preface of the author to his First Edition of TFotLotR Preface of the author (Tolkien) to his Second Edition of The Fall of the Lord of the Rings Prologue of the Editor (me) to the Three volumes of TFtE Note of the author on pronunciation Note of the author on Writing and spelling Note of the author on the Shire Records Note of the editor (me) based on texts of the translator (Tolkien) on the origin and source of the texts of the TftE Note of the author on translation to modern language Nomenclature of TLotR General Guide of Names Volume 1 The Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King (the text of There and Back Again updated with the three rewritten chapters in the 60’s, together with the text of TLotR, the pure story including the Epilogue and some few material lost in the preliminary revision published by Hammond & Scull) Volume 2 Translations from the Elvish Silmarillion Ainulindale. The Music of the Ainur Valaquenta. Account of the Valar and Maiar according to the lore of the Eldar . Of the Valar . Of the Maiar . Of the Enemies Eldanyare ecar Quenta Silmarillion History of the Eldar or History of the Silmarils . 1 Of the Beginning of Time . 2 Of Valinor and the Two Trees -Of Aulë and the Dwarves -Of the Onodrim and Eagles . 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the captivity of Melkor -Of the awakening of the Elves (Cuiviényarna) -Of the Chaining of Melkor . 4 Of Thingol and Melian . 5 Of Eldamar and the Princes of the Eldalie . 6 Of Finwë and Míriel . 7 Of Fëanor and the Unchaining of Melkor . 8 Of the Silmarilli and the Unrest of the Noldor . 9 Of the Darkening of Valinor . 10 Of the Rape of the Silmarils . 11 Of the Thieves’ Quarrel -Of the Orkor . 12 Of the Flight of the Noldor -Of the speech of Fëanor upon Tuna -Of the First Kin-slaying and the Doom of the Noldor . 13 Of Dwarves . 14 Of the Sindar -Of the building of Menegroth -Of the coming of Denethor -Of the First battle of the Wars of Beleriand . 15 Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor -Of the Moon and the Sun -Of the Lighting of Endor -Of the Hiding of Valinor . 16 Of Men . 17 Of the return of the Noldor -Of the Second battle: Dagor-nuin-Gilliath . 18 Of the Siege of Angband -Of Fingon and Maedhros -Of the Founding of Nargothrond and Gondolin -Of the Third battle: Dagor Aglareb -Of Turgon and the Building of Gondolin . 19 Of Beleriand and its Realms -Of the dwellings and the economy of the Eldar . 20 Of Maeglin. Sister-son of Turgon, King of Gondolin . 21 Of the Coming of the Edain & their Hauses and Lordships in Beleriand -Of the Coming of Men into the West and the Metting of the Edain and the Eldar -Of the Kindreds and Houses of the Edain . 22 Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin -Of the Fourth battle: Dagor Bragollach -Of the Death of Fingolfin -Of the Sige of Eithel Sirion and the Fall of Galdor -Of the Swarthy Men . 23 Of Beren and Tinúviel -Of the meeting of Beren and Lúthien -Of the Quest of the Silmaril -Of the Wolf-hunt of Carcharoth -Of the song of Lúthien in Mandos . 24 Of the Fifth Battle: Nirnaeth Arnoediad -Of the Union of Maedhros -Of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad . 25 Of Túrin Turambar or Túrin the Hapleless . 26 Of the Fate of Húrin and Morwen . 27 Of the Sigil Elu-naeth and the Ruin of Doriath -Of the Second Kin-slaying . 28 Of Tuor and the Fall of Gondolin . 29 Of the Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star -Of the Third Kin-slaying . 30 Of the Great Battle and the War of Wrath -Of the Last End of the Oath of Fëanor and his Sons -Of the Passing of the Elves -The Second Prophecy of Mandos Appendix A I Of the Powers of the Valar II Of the Knowledge of the Valar B I Of Laws and Customs among the Eldar and other matters related -Of Youth and Growth of the Elves -Of the Elvish Life-cycles -Of naming -Of death and the severance of fëa and hröa -Of Reincarnation and other dooms of those that go to Mandos -Of the severance of marriage II The Converse of Manwë and Eru C I -Of Death of Animals and Plants -Of Death of Incarnate Bodies II Of Aman -Aman and Mortal Men III Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth -Of Death and the Children of Eru, and the Marring of Men. D Of Tongues. Herein are several extracts and comments mostly from The Lammas or Account of Tongues -Lambion Ontale. The Descent of Tongues -The division of Tongues -Of the speech of Dwarves -Of the Atani and their tongues -Essecenta Eldarinwa. Enquiry into the origins of Elvish names. (extracts) -Meanings and use of the various terms applied to the Elves. -The Clan-names -The names of the descendants of Finwë -Elvish names for Men -Elvish names for the Dwarves -Elvish names for the Orcs -Kwen, Quenya and the Elvish(specially Noldorin) words for "Language" -Note on Gender in Elvish Languages -Note on Eldarin, Words, Fingers and Numerals -Note on the "Language of the Valar" -Dangweth pengolodh -Ósanwe-centa. Enquiry into the Communication of Thought. (résumé of Pengolodh's discussion) -Note on Mind-Pictures E Ambarcanta The shaping of the World F Yénonótie. The Tale of Years. Genealogies Maps Volume 3 Translations from the Elvish Atanatarion ATANATARION egor NERN IN EDENEDAIR Tales of the Fathers of Men Narn Beren ion Barahir egor Narn e·Dinúviel or The lay of Leithian 1 Of Thingol in Doriath, Of Lúthien the Beloved, Of Daeron Minstrel of Thingol, of the meeting of Thingol and Melian 2 Of Morgoth, Of the Saving of King Finrod Felagund by the XII Beorings, Of Tarn Aeluin the Blesses, Of Gorlim Unhappy 3 Of the revenge of Beren & his Escape 4 Of the Coming of Beren to Doriath and his meeting with Lúthien 5 Of Beren before Thingol 6 Of Beren in Nargothrond 7 Of Beren and Finrod before Sauron 8 Of Luthien's captivity in Doriath 9 Of Huan y Lúthien in Nargothrond 10 Of the death of Finrod and the defeat of Sauron 11 Of the attack by Celegorm and Curufin 12 Of the disguising of Beren and Lúthien and the journey to Angband 13 Of the meeting with Carcharoth 14 Of Beren and Luthien in Angband and the rape of the Silmaril 15 Of the Escape from Angband 16 Of the Wolf-hunt 17 Of the Song of Lúthien in Mandos -The choices of Lúthien Narn e·mbar Hador -Prologue . Narn e·’Rach Morgoth Narn i Chîn Húrin 1 The Childhood of Túrin 2 The Battle of Unnumbered Tears 3 The Words of Húrin and Morgoth 4 The Departure of Túrin 5 Túrin in Doriath 6 Túrin among the Outlaws 7 Of Mîm the Dwarf 8 The Land of Bow and Helm 9 The Death of Beleg 10 Faelivrin 11 Túrin in Nargothrond 12 The Fall of Nargothrond 13 The Return of Túrin to Dor-Lómin 14 The coming of Túrin into Brethil 15 The Journey of Morwen and Nienor to Nargothrond 16 Niënor in Brethil 17 The Coming of Glaurung 18 The Death of Glaurung 19 The Death of Túrin The Wanderings of Húrin -The release of Húrin, Húrin in Dor-lómin -The Shadow falls on Brethil -Húrin in Nargothrond -Húrin in Doriath Narn en-Êl egor Narn e·Dant Gondolin ar orthad en-Êl 1 The birth and fostering of Tuor 2 The call of Ulmo 3 Tuor in Vinyamar 4 Voronwë 5 The quest of Gondolin 6 The hidden pass 7 The arriving at Gondolin 8 Tuor in Gondolin and the birth of the New Star 9 The Treason of Maeglin 10 The Fall of Gondolin 11 The Flight of the exiles 12 The song of Tuor in Nan-tathen 13 The Departure of Tuor and Idril and the voyages of Eärendil 14 The attack of the sons of Fëanor and the Third Kin-slaying 15 The Great Voyage of Eärendil and the raising of the Star Genealogies Map Volume 4 Translations from the Elvish The Second and Third Ages First Part The Second Age I Númenor Atalante or Akallabeth. The Fall of Númenor Epilogue Appendix I Of Lifes of the Númenóreans II Of Land ans Beasts of Númenor III Indis i-Kiryamo: The Mariner´s Wife IV The line of Elros II Middle Earth Of the Realms of the Elves in the Second Age Of the Return of the Shadow Of Galadriel and Celeborn Of the Rings of Power Of Men in Middle Earth and their first meeting with the Númenóreans -Tal-elmar Of Dwarves and their relations with Men Of the Realms of the Exiles of Númenor Of the last alliance of Elves and Men Appendix The Tale of Years of the Second Age Second Part The Third Age Of the disaster of the Gladden Fields Of the Kingdoms of the Exiles in the Third Age -Of the North Kingdom and the Dúnedain -Of the Chieftains of the Dúnedain -Of the Kingdom of Gondor and the Heirs of Anarion -Of the Stewards -The Oath of Cirion and Eorl Of Durin's Folk Of Eldar in the Third Age Of the Istari Of the Fall of the Lord of the Rings and the Return of the King Of Aragorn and Arwen Undomiel Appendix 1 The Heirs of Elendil 2 The Kings of the March 3 The Tale of Years of the Third Age 4 Of languages and peoples in the Third Age. Third Part General Notes I Of the Sources of the legend of Isildur's Death II Of the Númenórean Linear Measures III Of the boundaries of Lothlórien IV Of Amroth and Nimrodel V Of the Historical origins of the names of the rivers Glanduin and Gwathló VI Of the Halifirien and the Tradition of Isildur VII Of the classification of Men by the Dúnedain VIII Of the origins of the Istari IX Of the Elessar X Of the Drúedain and the Periannath -The faithful stone -Of the differences between the Drúedain and the Periannath XI Of the Palantiri XII Of the Battles of the Fords of Isen Epilogue The New Shadow Maps Volume 5 On Hobbits Of the Quest of Erebor Of the Hunt for the Ring -Of the Journey of the Black Riders according to the account that Gandalf gave to Frodo -Concerning Gandalf, Saruman and the Shire -Of Customs of the Hobbits (from Letter 214) Shire Calendar The Tale of Years (on hobbits) -The Great Years -The chief days from the Fall of Bard-dûr to the end of the Third Age -Later Events concerning the members of the Fellowship of the Ring Family Trees Other verses and poems from the original Red Book (TAoTB and Bilbo's last poem) Greetings |
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09-06-2023, 12:08 PM
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#76 | ||
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Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 358
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Quote:
Otherwise, your outline is pretty good.
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09-06-2023, 03:01 PM
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#77 |
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Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 246
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A description of the Edoras exterior, in the Lord of the Rings A REaders Companion p.400. " ... C. Tolkien felt thatit was only his guess that the passage was lost rather than deliberately omitted, and although a good guess it is a guess nonetheless"
Greetings Last edited by gondowe; 09-06-2023 at 03:05 PM. |
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09-07-2023, 05:20 AM
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#78 |
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King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,720
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That a good find! I think we have take that up into our text as well.
Respectfully Findegil |
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Linear Mode
