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#1 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is the first draft of the chapter The End of the Third Age.
This chapter is a thoroughly mixed bag of sources, and so there is no base text. Because of this, I have marked every instance of any text used, so as to be easy to follow. The markings are: FY-HL-xx for all the headlines for the Fading Years. ETA-SL-xx for all expansions and changes to the narrative. Some conventions of my writing: Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks {example} = text that should be deleted [example] = normalized text, normally only used for general changes, as well as changes which are a part of replacement that is not grammatical. Underlined Text = text changed for grammatical reasons in the process of combining and inserting and removing. <source example> = additions with source information ...... = This section of the paragraph is unchanged from the source. Quote:
ETA-SL-01: Here we finally give the story of Gandalf's arrival at the Havens as told in retrospect, which I think we should keep in this location, since this is when Tolkien intended to give it. I have taken it from Of the Rings of Power. ETA-SL-02: This sentence from the version of the event given in Appendix B is not found in the ORP version, so I brought it in. ETA-SL-03: This sentence from the version of the event given in The Istari from UT is not found in the ORP version, so I brought it in. ETA-SL-04: We turn to the Waldman Letter in order to close out the story of Frodo and Bilbo. I did not include the last scene of Sam returning home since I thought it was too personal for the overarching narrative, but I suppose it could be included if that is deemed better. ETA-SL-05: I removed the comments of Tolkien. ETA-SL-06: This detail is worth bringing in, so that we keep the symmetry with the ORP version. ETA-SL-07: Here we give the last portion of Of the Rings of Power, and conclude the narrative of the Eldar in Middle-earth: a bittersweet moment to be sure! ETA-SL-08: Here we return to the story of Men, with the addition from the Kings of Rohan about Theoden, which was removed from the chapter which was then called The Stewards but is now called The Quest for Erebor. I think it works well here. ETA-SL-09: Here I switch to the text in the Tale of Years draft from HoME 12. This is a shorter account than that of Appendix A, but it contains some relevant details. ETA-SL-19: Here we insert the bit from Eomer's entry in the Kings of Rohan dealing with ascendance to Kingship and Eowyn's prowess. ETA-SL-11: This was the date in the earlier draft, but in the final version it was changed slightly, so I updated it. This detail is not given explicitly in the text of Appendix A, so I thought it was worth including. ETA-SL-12: Here we switch back to Appendix A. It describes the reign of Eomer in Rohan, and then transitions back to the Tale of Years text briefly as a segue into the Aragorn and Arwen narrative. ETA-SL-13: This detail needs to be given before the end of the next few, since it references Aragorn making 'The Mayor, the Thain, and the Master' into counsellors of the North Kingdom. By that point we are supposed to know that The Mayor is Sam, so we need to give it before that point. Here seems as good a place as any. ETA-SL-14: This detail is also needed before the next additon, which references this decree. ETA-SL-15: Here we give the last bit from the North Kingdom narrative in Appendix A, which deals with Aragorn's reign. I changed the tense to past tense, since right after this we recount the death of Aragorn, so he cannot be referenced in the present tense. ETA-SL-16: This detail from Appendix B is worth giving. ETA-SL-17: This piece of info from Appendix B is also worth giving for its own sake. ETA-SL-18: Here we relate the passing of Sam over the sea, as well as the transmission of the Red Book, taken from Appendix B and edited for proper tenses. ETA-SL-19: Here we relate the deaths of Merry and Pippin and Eomer, and set the stage for Aragorn's death. ETA-SL-20: Here we give the last portion of The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen. (Sidenote: this scene is one of my favorite moments in the legendarium; it's so sad!) ETA-SL-21: I thought this detail worth giving, but I did not want to give it before Aragorn's death was related. This placing feels somewhat awkward, but I could find no better spot. ETA-SL-22: This portion of the Tale of Years draft contains info not given elsewhere, briefly mentioning the reign of Eldarion, and setting the stage for The New Shadow (which will follow this chapter). ETA-SL-23: Here we return to the text of Appendix A briefly as the best means of transitioning from the Aragorn info to this new info about Legolas and Gimli. ETA-SL-24: The account in Appendix B is much fuller and more detailed, so I used that one. ETA-SL-25: This note from Durin's Folk belongs here, as the last chronological event, as well as 'one of the last notes in the Red Book.' With that, we come to an end of our single, unified tale of the History of Middle Earth, except for the fragment of The New Shadow which follows this. |
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#2 | |||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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FY-HL-22: I am not happy with this title as the text contains much that actually happen in the Fourth Age.
ETA-SL-08 & ETA-SL-10: These addition do not realy fit here. I would integrat them in the chatper The War of the Ring. See the appropriate thread for information of where and how I would place them. And I would add a part about the extantion of Rohan. The text here would than read: Quote:
ETA-SL-14.1 to ETA-SL-14.9: I think we should add version 2 of the Epilogue to the LotR. Tolkien was talked out of using it, but he never rejected its content. Therefore I think it fits very well the goal of the project to include it here. I will give my take at it here and than add comments on my editing. Quote:
ETA-SL-14.1: I do not think we need a title for this, and I can’t think of any fitting. ETA-SL-14.2: The Footnote i in origin from Appendix B, but it fit here well. ETA-SL-14.3: I restored the original reading as Christopher Tolkien suggest that the change was unintentional. ETA-SL-14.4, ETA-SL-14.5, ETA-SL-14.6 & ETA-SL-14.9: Editorial notes removed. ETA-SL-14.7: The Facsimile at least we must add, otherwise all the talk is without reference. ETA-SL-14.8: I think should as well add the transcripts as they make the letter readable for all. I reconstructed the reading of the third version from the text of the first and teh notes given for the third. ETA-SL-16.2: As we have given all this events from the Shire so much room we should not miss the Westmarch. ETA-SL-23 to ETA-SL-25: I would rather weave thes a bit more together to avoid redundance: Quote:
Findegil |
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#3 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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FY-HL-22: I had a similar thought, but I can see no other title which would work. Any other suggestions are welcome. I think it will be ok tho, since the end of the Third Age (the passing of Elrond) is included in this chapter.
I agree to all the rest, a very well-organized and cogent post. As always, you have caught much that I missed! Why did you remove the bit at the end of the English text of Aragorn's letter, where he says the date in the Rivendell months? Last edited by ArcusCalion; 07-24-2018 at 12:22 AM. |
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#4 | ||
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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After reading through the draft including the Epilogue, I think we may now include the portion of the Waldman Letter that talks about Sam after Frodo departs, since we are going to spend so much time with him later on in the chapter. Therefore, I added this addition after ETA-SL-07:
Quote:
In addition, now that the Epilogue breaks up the paragraph, ETA-SL-15's reference to 'Our King' has no antecedent. Therefore I would change it like so: Quote:
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#5 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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I agree to both.
About the end of the transcription: That’s how I understood what was written in the note concerning the differences between the transcript of version I and III of the letter. I did not cross check with the elvish signs. But doing so, I found in Vinyar Tengwar #29 that I missed a number so the end must read: 'February, 6341 [=1436]' Respectfully Findegil |
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#6 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Noted! Thank you
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#7 | |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Okay here is the next passage from the Istari essay worth considering:
Quote:
Findegil |
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#8 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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These are great additions. I have only two comments.
In ETA-SL-03.4 The sentence starting 'Thus he got his name' needs to be removed, since in the late note concerning the Blue Wizards it is said that his name is 'not now clearly interpretable.' I called this change ETA-SL-03.5. I think we should change the start of ETA-SL-03.8 to 'It has been told' since we've told that whole story right here in this text, so it cant be said to be 'elsewhere told.' Or we could say 'Elsewhere is it told in full' to distinguish it. Last edited by ArcusCalion; 12-14-2018 at 11:01 PM. |
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#9 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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ETA-SL-03.5: Agreed.
ETA-SL-03.8: What about ‘Elsewhere is told ETA-SL-03.9 <editorial addition at length> how it was ...’ Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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This is fine
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#11 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have another inclusion from The Sources of the Legend of Isildur's Death:
Quote:
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#12 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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ETA-SL-03.9: Agreed.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#13 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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One more addition for the very end of this chapter after the current last sentence:
Quote:
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#14 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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ETA-SL-26: I am not happy with this addition. Even so it is ‘many years later’ The New Shadow is still in ‘the day of old’, at least from our and our potential readers perspective. And as we have old Borlas in that tale (at least at the beginning, that we have) the recorded event in the The New Shadow are not far in the future at the time when Legolas and Gimli left and Arwen died.
Anyhow the sentence is more true as it stands, since the death of Arwen is probably later then the journey of Legolas and Gimli, even so we record it in a changed sequence. Respectfully Findegil |
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#15 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Would you recommend that it be put (in some modified form) at the end of The New Shadow? Or simply removed entirely?
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#16 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Modifying it in a way that it would be useable at the end of 'The New Shadow' is using JRR Tolkiens words forming a fan-fictional sentence. I think we have to leave it out.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#17 | |||||||
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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Another good chapter! Looking through this thread, I can see the chapter went through lots of changes for the better. I only have a few minor comments:
1) Regarding the Blue Wizards, this chapter states: Quote:
Quote:
2) ETA-SL-03.9 feels out of place: Quote:
3) Quote:
4) Typos: Quote:
Quote:
5) I haven't read "The New Shadow" chapter yet, but I think Arcus' suggestion for the ending makes sense. Something like: Quote:
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#18 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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1) Fin pointed out that the statements are not a contradiction. Saruman was also good for a time, and no doubt did much to prevent Sauron from gaining more power. However, he fell after some time. The same is equally possible of the Blue Wizards. This coupled with the vague language combines to make the two differing statements not contradictory.
2) Put your suggestion in that thread. I'm open to moving it. 3) This is the only other place where this occurs. We changed the similar statements in earlier chapters, so we should no doubt do so here. 4) Good catches! 5) I didn't think it was out of place in this chapter to be honest. I consider The Black Years and The Fading Years to be the last two parts continuing the narrative of the Quenta Silmarillion and the Atanatarion. Having this at the end of the work lends the whole thing a sense of finality and conclusion that I think is nice to have. The New Shadow is by its very incomplete nature a clearly unusual text, and must be dated later than the compilation of the previous texts. But it is definitely a debatable issue. As for the argument that it is 'fanfiction-y,' then I must agree with gandalf here. By this definition, the whole project is fanfiction-y. But as it is a small thing, there is no reason to debate too long on it. |
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#19 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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1) For me there is no contradiction here. We have 2 other examples of failed Istari: Saruman and Radagast. Both had helped the ‘West’ in the beginning of their labour: Radagast by providing things like help of Eagels and other beast and birds as scouts (that these were misused in the end by Saruman can not be blaim on him), and Saruman by leading the White Council, providing knowledge about the Rings, and last but least as military ‘commander’ (e.g. Isengard as important point in the defence of the ‘West’ and the plans for the attack on Dol Guldur). And jet both did fall short of the aim they had taken on themself as Istari: Radagast by more or less neglegting the mission, Saruman at first by his own abbitions to become supreme leader and then by complete turn over to the enemy side.
For the Blue Wizards the reported positive effects are stiring rebellion against Sauron, weakening and disarraying the forces of the East. Like Saruman in the case of the Dol Guldur attack, these effects could have been archived even without staying true to the original mission. But any how they were rather archieved in times (long) before the War of the Ring, so that they could as well have been archieved with the best intention and jet in the crucial moment the Blue Wizards could have fallen from the high task, and thus failed in the overall picture given in this passage. 2) What is out of place is only the first paragraph. The passage from ‘But King Elessar, when he was crowned in Gondor, began the re-ordering of his realm ...’ fits here very well. I agree to remove this fist paragraph here, go ahead and post the place in ‘The treason of Isnegard’. 3) I agree that we have to chang the sentence. So what about this: Quote:
5) Let us discuss that in the appropriate place. Letter 244: I think we should consider placing the entire letter in this chapter and remove the snippet just put in The War of the Ring. What do you think of this placement and editing: Quote:
And one other small point: ETA-SL-16.2 and ETA-SL-18: I think we must keep a bit more of these. As it stands we mention that the Fairbrains lived for generation in Undertowers, but we did not mention who they are. And in the end we leave Rose out of the picture, which could mean to our reader that Sam left his wife behind, which was not the case, and which would be fully out of charachter. Quote:
Findegil |
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#20 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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3) Agreed.
Letter: well done Fin! This fits well here. Agreed. Other point: Agreed as well. |
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#21 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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1) OK, that makes sense, and I think it's a valid interpretation of how the Blue Wizards succeed but ultimately fail.
2) Yes, just the first paragraph -- I will post where I think it should be moved after finishing this post. 3) Agreed. Letter 244: I think this is great! I agree to removing the snippet I added to "War of the Ring". ETA-SL-16.2 and ETA-SL-18: Agreed. |
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#22 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Quote:
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#23 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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FY-HL-22: Is Of the Dominion of Men I title used by Tolkien? I don't think so. But anyhow it seems to me to be to broad. It is true that the Dominion of Men started with Elessar, but it did not end yet. So this title would cover all the History of Middel-earth from the crowning of Elessar to the prophecy of teh Last Battle (and as we talk about an fiegned history all our now real world history in between). That is a deal more than what we have put together in this chapter.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#24 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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Quote:
And as to your second objection - I agree, it's too broad: maybe something like The Beginning of the Dominion of Men?
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#25 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Used as a title, yes. Used to cover the same over all time frame, neare enough. Used to title the same text, of course not.
Thus I at least see still a difference from creating a title out of something mentioned some where in a text. Respectfully Findegil |
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