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#81 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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I have a comment about the change Kalakiryan -> Calacirya
In "the Road Goes Ever On" Tolkien glosses "Calaciryan, Calaciryandë as "the region of Eldamar (Elvenhome) in and near the entrance to the ravine, where the Light was brighter and the land more beautiful" It is theorized that -yandë is a Quenya suffix meaning "place of" or "land" which is rarely used, as it appears only in words like Valariandë and Ossiriandë. In the Sindarin, however, it is more common as -ian or -ien, and appears in many place names. Thus, the term: Calaciryan would appear to be a valid term in the final understanding, in reference to the land around the Calacirya. Should this be changed in our texts to reflect this? |
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#82 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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I would say yes if the reference is to the land around and not to the ravine.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#83 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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Ah, so Calaciryan (or the long form Calaciryande) is the surrounding land, while the Calacirya is the pass itself. That seems to make sense.
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#84 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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A minor change, but the Quenya version of Thingol given in LQ (Singollo) was replaced in Q&E with Sindicollo. We should make a general change throughout. It is only used three times I believe, so it is not a major change.
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#85 | |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Another minor question, but in the Notes from the Shibboleth (by far the latest notes on the subject as far as I can tell) Orodreth (given as an altered form of Rodreth) was replaced. This is how we have edited it in the current draft:
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#86 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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I have taken up {Singollo}[Sindicollo]. But for Orordreth we used the argument that the names must be valid sitll since we have ruler of Gondor called by the same name.
Respectfully Findegil |
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#87 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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While I see the logic that the fact of the name existing for a lord of Gondor proves it's a valid name, I do not see how it makes it any more applicable to Arothir as a name.
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#88 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Well, many (if not all) Truchsess of Gondor were named after 'heros' of the First Age. I would not assume that there was a second charachter call Orodreth after whom Orodreth of Gondor was named. We rather thought that Tolkien if faced by the fact that Orordreth of Gondor existed would have thought that Arothír got the old epithet for the same reasons. (With the Change of the name the charachter does not change, so the feature that warranted the name remains.)
Respectfully Findegil |
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#89 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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We have to add one change at least:
{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant. Respectfully Findegil |
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#90 |
Quentingolmo
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 525
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Should we then change the other kindreds of the Dwarves to match this? The Fire-beards, Black-locks etc. as opposed to Firebeards and Blacklocks?
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#91 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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That is a difficult question. But we have used a similar argument of consistency for the ‘Eredlindon’ and ‘Ered-Lindon’ versus ‘Ered Lindon’ case. So I think we should include these changes:
{Blacklocks}[Black-locks] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. {Broadbeams}[Broad-beams] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. {Firebeards}[Fire-beards] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. {Ironfists}[Iron-fists] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. {Stiffbeards}[Stiff-beards] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. {Stonefoots}[Stone-foots] per the use of ‘Long-beards’ in LotR in contrast to ‘Longbeards’. Respectfully Findegil |
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#92 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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A general change found in Tal-Elmar:
{Tal-elmar}[Tal-Elmar] due to the continuation of Tal-Elmar. Respectfully Findegil |
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#93 |
Wight
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 121
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After reviewing "Of the Laws and Customs Among the Eldar," we decided on the change:
{re-birth}[re-housing] {re-born}[re-housed] |
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#94 | |||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Tolkien later used always ‘c’ instead of ‘k’ in elvish names. Probabaly we will find a lot more, but here are the first such changes:
{Valakirka}[Valacirca] per later use of c instead of k. {Koivie-neni} and {Kuivienen}[Cuiviénen] per Sil77. {Helkar}[Helcar] per later change of k to c. {Helkarakse}, {Helkaraxe} and {Helkaraxë}[Helcaraxë] {Kalaquendi}[Calaquendi] per later use of c for k. {Orokarni}[Orocarni] per later use of c for k. {Ork}[Orc] and {Orkor} and {Orks}[Orcs] per later use of c for k. But keep ‘Orkish’ since the pronaunciation of ‘Orcish’ would be completely of. While adding these general changes to our list I found this one: {Palisor}[Endor] per QS77 In QS77 we find: Quote:
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- We have to find a better replacement for Palisor. I do not know how we came to Endor anyway since it fitted in neither definition. Palisor is introduced thus in the BoLT: Quote:
{Palisor}[Mid-Land] due to Ambrakanta Map IV - And we have to find a replacement for Endor as the name of the midmost point of Middle-Earth, since Endor is used for Middle-earth it self. And Endon/Endor does not only appears on the Ambrakanta Maps but as well in our text. With no better idea at the moment I would suggest to geo back to Endon. Thus: {Endor}[Endon] if the midmost point of Middle-Earth is meant. Respectfully Findegil |
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#95 | |||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Because in my 50th Anniversary copy of the LOTR, it says: Quote:
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#96 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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#97 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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{Longbeards}[Long-beards] per LotR if the Dwarves of Moria a meant. I am not sure about this, but I think it is longstanding general change, that I took up without lookking up the source. I will compare some editions of LotR later and come up with a proposal. Mostlikley the 50th-Aniversary edition will rule.
'c' for 'k' in evish names: It is clear that we are systematic with this change than Tolkien ever has been (or could be, due to his way to write and work with manuscripts). If any name strics you as 'resisting' change, meaning that there is never found an example of it writen with 'c' or some good argument why it would not be changed to 'c' like in 'orkish' we could take that name out. Respectfully Findegil |
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#98 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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Tolkien in his published works alway changed k for c. The texts we manage are not text revised for publishing.
Greetings |
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#99 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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Fair enough - it's only a cosmetic change anyway. However, what about cases such as 'Melkor'?
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#100 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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Also, since I don't really know where else to ask this:
What is the consensus here on using material from The History of The Lord of the Rings?
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#101 |
Wight
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 245
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There is examples of using Melcor and Tulcas by Tolkien himself in the texts edited by CT. Melkor and Tulkas is rooted by the tradition of CT, also Kementari. The rest as Orcs, Orkor, Elenmacil, Osanwe centa, Essecenta Eldarinwa, etc up to you.
He used the k to know the real fonema he wanted to use. But in publishing he wanted to use the c as is spoken in latin, celtic or OE for example. Greetings |
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#102 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Still feels weird though, given how used to the name I am. Anyway, I agree.
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#103 |
Late Istar
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,224
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"Melcor" and "Tulcas" do occur, but even in very late texts we also have "Melkor" (e.g. in the Shibboleth inf 1968 and in several of the 1972-73 texts given in "Last Writings"). Valarin-derived names, it seems, did not fall under the general late policy of preferring "c" to "k" in translating Quenya, even if he did toy with applying the policy to Valarin as well.
So I really think we must keep the "k" in names like Melkor, Tulkas, and Kementari, even though we replace it with "c" in Quenya names like Valacirca and Elemmacil. |
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#104 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
Posts: 335
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Again, I'm pretty zen on all of this. Whatever the consensus is, I'll go with it.
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#105 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Tol Morwen
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What is the basis of the 'Eledhwen' > 'Edhelwen' change? Because the Kinship of the Half-elven (c. 1964) has 'Eledwen' instead (I think?).
https://tolkiengateway.net/w/images/...Half-elven.jpg
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#106 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,714
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Well, we followed the HoMe XI, Index that stated it was the later form. The references given in the Index are to The Grey Annals.
Respectfully Findegil |
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