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#1 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Tol Eressea
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The Unions of Elves and Men
Tolkien's writings make clear why unions between Men and Elves are rare. Gilraen tells Aragorn simply that "it is not fit that mortal should wed with the Elf-kin." But this is not a matter only of Elves having a higher station than Men, though this is, no doubt, a component of the reasons that the two races rarely marry. More important is the fact that such a marriage could only last several decades and would inevitably end with the Elf not only enduring the aging of the Mannish spouse, but also the parting at death which leaves the Elf alone and bereaved for so long as Arda may last. Keep in mind that Elves marry only once (with the notable and ultimately tragic exception of Finwe and Miriel who receive a special exemption from the Valar). The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen reflects the great sadness of the separation of Elrond and Arwen even though the couple shares a common fate.
As a result, there are only three "documented" unions of Elves and Men and only one further "legendary" one. The unions of Beren and Luthien, Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen are integral parts of the mythology of Middle Earth. The union of Imrazor and Mithrellas, that gave renewed Elvish blood into the line of the princes of Dol Amroth is less clearly established as "fact." The first three are events of high fate and are exceptional, the last less so. Regardless, there is a common thread in these tales. In each case, the husband is the Man and the wife is Elvish. Elsewhere is the story of Aegnor and Andreth, who were apparently in love but never were wed, told in the Athrabeth with a discussion in some detail of why Elves and Men rarely should marry. There is nowhere told the tale of a male Elf marrying a female of the Mannish race. Is there any explanation regarding why this is the case?
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#2 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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I would add Dior and Nimloth to the list. NoME makes it clear (1.XVIII, "Elvish Ages & Numenorean", dated ca. 1965) that the Half-Elven were natively mortal, though living five times as long as regular mortals. Elros lived and died Half-Elven; Elrond was made Elven by the Valar; therefore Dior must have lived and died (untimely) Half-Elven and mortal too.
I think Turin and Finduilas are also worth considering, as a second 'failed relationship'. The Athrabeth makes it clear that Aegnor never married Andreth because he was afraid of her aging when he did not, but I don't remember that coming up in the Finduilas case. I vaguely recall one in-universe explanation holding that a mortal woman wouldn't be strong enough to bear a half-elven child (think the death of Miriel), but that might have been a fan-theory. Another possibility, which spans the border between internal and external, is that a woman can endure the loss of her husband because of her children, whereas fathers do not have the same attachment. (Not true, but Tolkien might have considered it to be.) I think the strongest explanation is purely external: most of these stories are of a mortal man wandering or being led into a realm of Faerie, where he wins great renown and the love of a fairy princess. It's basically the same tale as Smith of Wootton Major, though there's no relationship in that one. I think it's just a story Tolkien really liked writing! The Mithrellas story is then a deliberate inversion of this: an elvish maiden wandering into a Mannish realm. And... obviously not a marriage, but the strong friendship of Legolas and Gimli, which ultimately leads to them sailing West together, is founded when they pass into each other's worlds (Moria and then Lorien), and confirmed when they agree to deliberately return to the same (the Glittering Caves and Fangorn). The 'part of your world' theme shows up again and again when Tolkien is creating relationships - and, in Tolkien's writings, lone wanderers are almost exclusively male. hS
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#3 | |
Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
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But if Half-Elves are mortal by default, what does that make Arwen? Or does her lifespan fit into the 5-times-mortal-length range before she chooses to be mortal? It seems like before death they are immortal by default unless they choose to become mortal, but on death I still can't see Mandos taking away the Gift from them, he would err on the side of offering it unless chosen otherwise.
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#4 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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(I guess it's actually Earendil, Elwing, and their descendants in immortal lineages? Or something. I Don't Have My Books (TM).) hS
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#5 |
Spirit of Mist
Join Date: Jul 2000
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I agree with Galadriel55 regarding Dior, though this is only an opinion. I do not recall anything written specifically regarding whether Dior would be considered an Elf, a Man, or Half-Elven. In light of this, I might amend my view in my initial post regarding the number of unions between Men and Elves, since Dior wedded Nimloth, an Elf. However, given the uncertainty of the status of Dior specifically, and since the decision of the Valar regarding the Half-Elven did not occur until later, this is merely an inclination.
The "status" of Arwen and her brothers has previously been debated at length here. The Tale of Aragorn and Arwen has Elrond saying that so long as he remains in Middle Earth, Arwen may depart to the West "if she so chooses." This is referred to by Elrond as "the doom that is laid on us." This, while a bit ambiguous, implies that Arwen and her brothers had the choice of Elrond and Elros to choose their fate. Others believe that Elrond's choice was passed on to his children and that Arwen's decision was a form of special dispensation.
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#6 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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NoME comes to the rescue on Dior: 1.IV "Time Scales" says: "Twins were very rare, and [Amrod and Amras are] the only case recorded of the Eldar in the ancient histories, except for the twin sons, Eldún and Elrún, of Dior Eluchil, but he was half-elven. In later times (Third Age) Elrond had twin sons." That's a ca. 1959 text. He's also directly called "Dior Halfelven" at the beginning of HoME XI's "Wandering of Hurin" (entry for 497), though that doesn't necessarily mean anything for his lifespan. (Since I brought up the boys living longer: Home XII explicitly says they died, in "Problem of Ros".)
NoME is also explicit on Arwen, but throws in a brand new surprise! Quote:
It's worth noting that Elros had three other children, so the possibility of immortal half-elven from his side is there. Nothing is recorded of them or their descendents apart from the trio's names. Back in "Elvish Ages & Numenorean", we can read that "At marriage Arwen became 'mortal'", and about "had she remained Elvish". Elrond is described as having been "made Elven" after the fall of Thangorodrim, while Elros is said to have lived out his life half-elven, and to be the only one who did. So it seems like Elrond and Elros had a weird lifespan due to their parents both being half-elven, but were natively mortal; they were given the choice to change that. Their choice would pass to their children, but those children could choose to reverse it for themselves and their descendents. None of which has much bearing on the question of elf-mortal marriages, but I'm pleased that the answers actually exist. ![]() hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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#7 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Tolkien wrote (can't find the cite) that, since the Valar had no authority to take away the Gift of Men (death), that any person with any Mannish blood was a Man, regardless of parentage. Earendil and Elwing and and their children were an Exception granted under extraordinary circumstances, and the choice only applied to them and their children, and Elrond's children. (Note also that Mithrellas' descendants were Men).
Dior lived and died before that ruling, and in any event as observed above it wouldn't have applied, since Luthien was mortal by the time he was born. Now, what sort of lifespan he might have had since genetically he was half-Elven (or 1/4E 1/4M) and conceivably may have had a more durable hroa we don't know, but it would have been finite. The specific extended lifespans granted to the House of Elros were, again, part of the Numenorean gift package.
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#8 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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Hunting out more references... the Tale of Years in HoME XII tells of Elrond's children:
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The beginning of HoME XII's "The Making of Appendix A" holds that Elros' choice immediately bound his descendents, while to Elrond's children... Quote:
I vaguely recognise the reference William Cloud Hicklin mentions, but also can't find the cite. ![]() EDIT: Thought it might be in Letters, but no. Letters 153 & 154 both assert that "the half-elven" were given a choice, and name both Elrond and Arwen. If linked with WCH's cite, that would imply that all children of an elf and a half-elf would have the same choice, while all children of a mortal and a half-elf would be mortal. But it might also just be a summary for simplicity. hS
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Have you burned the ships that could bear you back again? ~Finrod: The Rock Opera Last edited by Huinesoron; 11-02-2022 at 11:11 AM. |
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#9 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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I don't think the two cites are really contradictory, given Tolkien's old-school views: marrying a Man necessarily meant remaining with him/her in Middle-earth, and therefore staying behind when Elrond departed. I don't think it's necessary to pinpoint a moment when a "mortality switch" was flipped; Arwen does not appear to have died of anything except grief, and that essentially voluntarily.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#10 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
Join Date: May 2007
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Hmm. I found components to WCH's statement above: for example (stated by Manwe) in the conclusion to Quenta Silmarillion [HME 5]: "Now all those who have the blood of Mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; . . ."
Then there's letter 131 [to Waldman]: "The doom or gift of God, of mortality, the gods of course cannot abrogate, but the Numenoreans have a great span of life." Although I too, at least feel like it was stated as William writes it above, even if I can't find it. Anyway . . . |
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#11 | |
Pilgrim Soul
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“But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.”
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#12 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2000
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"Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged." Chapter 17, Conclusion of the Quenta Silmarillion
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#13 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
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I'm not sure what it means for the twins, though. "with him, or... remained behind" certainly implies that they had to get on the White Ship with their dad, but it's possible to read it as "depart to be Overseas with Elrond, or elect to remain behind permanently" - ie, the departure doesn't have to be on the same boat as him. But the simplest reading is that Elladan and Elrohir both chose mortality. Oh! And one more legendary union for the list: the Took family spoke of having a "fairy bride" somewhere in their history. Her existence is even less certain than Mithrellas, but we can't in good faith ignore her. hS
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#14 | |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
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#15 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
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The Appendices actually use "doom" twice, back to back, to refer to the fates of Aragorn and Arwen: Quote:
(Presumably the Doom was originally spoken at the birth of the twins, and then Elrond said "she shall be under the same Doom as her brothers" at Arwen's birth.) hS
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#16 | |
Spirit of Mist
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Going back to the original question in this thread (and feel free to continue discussing Arwen, Elladan and Elrohir), Tolkien never writes about a male Elf marrying a female Man. Huinesoron mentions the following.
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#17 |
Blossom of Dwimordene
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True, but we have one such union almost happen - Aegnor and Andreth. My knowledge of the Athrabeth is pretty superficial, but of all the reasons that Finrod provides against such a union, never (to my memory) does he say that childbearing is the dealbreaker.
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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