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#41 | |
Alive without breath
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I agree with a lot of that, Aiwendil, and have often considered it.
it always seems that east is where darkness lies in Tolkien. Save that in the earlier days Melkor dwelt in the north in Angband, so that may be an exception. We see that the Old forest was on the Eastern side of the shire, the Barrow downs (not entirely evil ![]() Quote:
I always found it interesting how there are two ends of this spectrum... in the North West of middle Earth is the Shire, here there is a pace loving folk with goodness spewing out of their ears. Moreover almost diagonally opposite in the South east there is Mordor with black malice and nastiness. Any thoughts?
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#42 | ||
Princess of Skwerlz
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Interesting thoughts, Aiwendil and Hookbill! Another example occurs to me - at the beginning of TTT, when the three remaining members of the Fellowship sing their song after Boromir's death, there is no stanza for the East Wind. Gimli says:
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#43 |
A Mere Boggart
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Why does Tom advise the hobbits to pass the Barrows on the western side?
Well, in addition to the other good answers on here, I'm not sure if it says, but perhaps the barrows open to the east, hence the hobbits would not have to pass the threshold of the barrows. It may also be that the shadows do not lie as long on that side. It could also tie in with the whole 'ancient' feel of these three chapters, in that the hobbits would be passing the barrows 'sunwise', following the path of the sun, rather than pasing them 'widdershins' (i.e. in an anti-clockwise direction) which is most unlucky. |
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#44 | ||
Alive without breath
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Estelyn said,
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Now, I think we've stayed away from the chapter too much... Near the beginning of the chapter, Gold Berry makes a statement; Quote:
She says this as if she has seen it happen. Perhaps there was some master of the lands who came to some unfortunate fate. Or it may be that she is thinking of her mother, the river woman, perhaps she 'owns' the land, and so she knows how burdensome the power is. However, by the same token, this could just be something Tolkien put in to add more of a mystery to the characters of Tom and Goldberry. Any thought?
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#45 |
Relic of Wandering Days
Join Date: Dec 2002
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Ack, judging the last few posts I am entirely out of left field, or should I say East field here, ( I still have not caught up in reading this thread, but am somewhere in the midst of Friday’s posts.)
Just wanted to propose something before we move on to the next chapter… Tom is referred to the master, but master of what? I personally feel that he is the master simply of his own fear and therein lays his power. Perhaps he is to be viewed as an archetype of what created beings were meant to be and that is why he seems not to fit any race fully, rather than being seen as a nature spirit or some thing in the ‘other’ category. At first I was remembering the mention in the letter at the beginning of the Silmarilian that men had fallen once before, and we aren’t told how that exactly came about. Was Tom a man from that time who somehow remained untouched? Probably not if he was alive when Middle Earth was still starlit. But Tom, not contending with nature, exists in a somewhat peaceful balance with it, despite its (and his) eccentricities. Goldberry is a nature spirit who has a powerfully good/beneficial/life supporting aspect, as does water, but I do not think that she is tame. The union of Tom and Goldberry could be representative of the relationship created beings were supposed to have with nature. But thinking back to the first time I ever read this chapter, I remember feeling a bit uneasy, wondering why exactly Tom and Goldberry weren’t present at breakfast and so on. Were the hobbits going to be lulled into another precarious situation by this rather seemingly mismatched couple that worked so well together? Were they off stoking the fire under a large kettle out back? Last edited by Hilde Bracegirdle; 08-10-2004 at 03:02 PM. |
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#46 |
Banshee of Camelot
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Interesting thoughts, Hilde!
I'm trying to catch up after being away on holidays... I must confess, I have rather mixed feelings about Tom Bombadil...I know that many find him ridiculous but just as many are fond of him. (In any case I'm glad they left him out of the movies!) Nobody minds if hobbits sing funny verses and dance on tables, but Tom's "merry dol ! ring a dong dillo!" and his capering around do irritate me a bit. I find his behaviour hard to reconcile with the fact that he is so age-old and wise and detached and powerful in his own way. But I guess that these two sides are somehow a part of Tolkien himself : the "high and noble " as well as the enjoyment of nonsense and fun. Come to think of it, it's a bit similar with the Elves : in "The Hobbit" the Rivendell -Elves are poking fun at the dwarves and sing a lot of nonsensical verses and don't behave dignified at all! In the LotR itself the Elves are mostly serious, although Gildor and his companions approach with "mingled song and laughter" and Sam remarks that they are "so old and young, so gay and sad" . As for Goldberry: I find Frodo's reaction to her interesting , he stands enchanted, recites poetry and stammers...almost if he was a bit falling in love with her... ![]() About "the ring in his voice" : I was puzzled that Fordim picked this out and saw it as "the Ring" . I thought this rather far-fetched and I agree with Helen, that it only meant a ringing voice (when he recited the poetry, i guess). (Especially since Goldberry said that it tells that Frodo is an Elf-friend.)
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#47 | |
Doubting Dwimmerlaik
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Excellent discussion, especially regarding Goldberry. I see her now in a completely new light.
That said, I've been thinking about the lack of symmetry in the hobbits's dreams. In the encounter with Old Man Willow, Merry and Pippin are trapped inside the tree, and Frodo is almost drowned. Sam is not attacked. I assume that Tolkien wanted to have Frodo almost drowned so that he would be available later to help the others (along with Sam). If he were one of the twain trapped within Old Man Willow, this may have been more difficult. During the first night at Tom's and Goldberry's house, three of the four hobbits have nightmare-like dreams. Frodo dreams of the Black Riders, as that's what's on his mind. Sam does not dream. The other two: Quote:
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#48 |
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I think that Tom and Goldberry are the perfect couple, just as Tolkien wished lifewould be. They work together and understand each other. I think that Tom is meant to be the the perfect man and Goldberry the perfect woman. Tom has power, but he does not use it unless he needs to. He does not abuse it. He canget anywhere and help anyone, if they just ask. He is perfect. Goldberry is Tolkien's perfect woman. She is kind, and loving, and beautiful, but powerful, not a helpless person like so many women in the past.
I think that they are meant to be perfect, how nature made us, comparable to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden. Free of care, happy, together. I think that Tom is not a nature spirit, rather, he is nature. He is part of the Music of the Ainur, which created the world. I think that is why he sings. Because he is part of the music, he can tap into it, reach into th music beyond the normal amount and use its power. He is very powerful. He is like the trunk of a tree from which power spreads out. He knows that the barrow wights are evil (maybe he made his land there to protect people, but then, why not just make his home in Mordor), so he Uses the Music. I don't think he is more or less powerful than Sauron or Morgoth, I think he is on a different level. He can go onto Sauron's plane but he can just go to any dimension in his realm. Tom Bombadil is a guardian of his realm, just as Melian was, but in a different way. Tom did not need to use enchantments, he just was. He did everything himself, and didn't just leave it to enchantments like the Maiar and Valar. That is why Tom and Goldberry are Nature. If you look at the description of Goldberry (mentioned above numerous times so I will not repeat it here), you find out she is not like an elf. She is not like one of the Valar, or Maiar, or even Eldar. She is not a celestial being of other worlds. She is more mortal, yet immortal in a natural everlasting way, the way the cycles of he world happen: Spring, summer, autumn, winter, spring , summer, autumn, winter and so on, however she is not immortal in the way of a Valar, of a something unmovable and untouching, or immortal like, Eru, floating, creating, unmoving yet all- powerful. i think this is what Tolkien is trying to get across. Tm Bombadil is the spirit of Arda and actually of Tolkien himself. Some interesing (unanswered questions) about this chapter: 1. Is Tom the Guardian of the flame imperishable 2. Why are the vegetarian? (only eating cream and honey and such things (maybe they asked the animals to make these for them?) 3. Is Sam special? (Why doesn't he get a dream?)
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#49 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Eönwë, the vegetarian meal was something I also noticed at this reading - it reminds me of the meal Bilbo, Gandalf, and the Dwarves had at Beorn's home in The Hobbit. I wonder if it has something to do with Tom and Goldberry's attitude toward nature - they do not *own* any of it. Perhaps that precludes making a meal of living creatures. Tolkien must have had a reason for putting that in there, as it certainly did not reflect his own life style - he enjoyed his meat.
Admittedly I am not a big Tom Bombadil fan, but when reading the chapter this time, I found myself thinking how fascinating it would have been to be there with the Hobbits! Wouldn't you have loved to hear the stories of the early ages of Arda? He seems to go backwards in time with his tales. I noticed a difference between Tom's poems - more nonsensical, light-hearted and folksy - and Frodo's lines in praise of Goldberry. To me, these are slightly reminiscent of the Elves' songs to Elbereth, a bit higher and nobler than Tom's sings, as befits an Elf-friend, perhaps. Interesting that Frodo's question about Old Man Willow was answered in the morning rather than in the dark - much like Gandalf telling about the Ring, Wraiths, etc. in Bag End. "Such matters were best left until daylight," was what the Wizard said there. Tom says, "Some things are ill to hear when the world's in shadow." What would you imagine to be the reason for that? Tolkien uses Tom's tales to build more suspense concerning the Barrow-downs. After all those warnings and precautions, it is narratively inevitable that something should happen there, don't you think?! For those who thought Gildor should have helped the Hobbits more actively, here is mention of something he did - alerting Tom. Did you notice that Goldberry withdraws early in the evenings, and the males carry on talking until late? I wonder why - does she need more sleep, or is there another reason? One line impressed me this time, sticking with me for no apparent reason: "Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless?" (...so much so that I have taken it for my signature.)
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#50 |
Princess of Skwerlz
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Addendum:
One word stood out for me this re-reading - penthouse! It sounds like a part of the house that is built on to it - does anyone know what the word means precisely in this context?
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#51 | |
Alive without breath
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A thought struck me.
While writing an essay on the Bombadil poem for university, I had to try and make some sort of interpretation of the character based on his actions. I was quite worried about this, seeing as any interpretation of Bombadil is bound to come up against opposition from a hundred other Tolkien fans. ![]() But this thing struck me as a useful way of looking at him. Here is what I said... Quote:
![]() Any thoughts?
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#52 | ||||
Cryptic Aura
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It's your bit about not being "owned" by terrors and trouble and tribulations that got me thinking about this concept of manhood. It's quite a feature in the literature just before Tolkien's time and there are two examples of it that are well known indeed. (As an aside, they garner just about as much ridicule and parody as Tolkien's Tom does.) Quote:
And just as yet another aside (of which this post seems to have many) here is a photograph of the author of Invictus, William Ernest Henley. Even granted that many late Victorian gentlemen were rather bushy-faced, his resemblance to many painters' depictions of Bombadil could well be one of those happy happenstances of cultural serendipity. ![]() It must have been rather difficult to see the stiff upper lip under all that beard, but we must remember that not all expositors on this ideal of manhood wore full beards. I believe that Kipling, for one, sported only a remarkable mustache. And speaking of Kipling of course there is his remarkable expression of he who is not owned by anything. Note how the reward which Kipling suggests is the very power which Bombadil holds. Quote:
Yes, I think you've hit upon something here, Hookbill, and I don't think it's rock you've stubbed your toe on.
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I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away. Last edited by Bêthberry; 03-27-2008 at 09:21 AM. |
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#53 |
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He is probably the only person who has power in lotr who is not affected by it.
Or rather, maybe he is affected by it, but just uses it in normal daily life. But probably he always had it, and just decided to live as a normal person, except that the normal problems and troubles just don't happen. He just sort of averts the bad away so that he can do whatever he wants and lead a fun life.
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#54 |
Sage & Onions
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At the house of Tom Bombadil,
well probably about time I added my ha'penny worth of speculation to the (surely ultimately unknowable) in-story origins of Tom and Goldberry. Of Tom, I must say I've had him down as a junior Maiar, or similar spirit of lesser degree. He seems to have been in Middle Earth for a very long time. I wonder if he was one of the 'staff' of the Valar (perhaps an understudy of Yavanna) who worked on forming Arda, but never left? By the third age he has become so attached to his patch that he now fulfils a role similar to the 'Genius loci' of classical mythology, the anthropomorphisation of a particular place. Though JRRT seems to have little truck with classical mythology I think such an idea was popular with many ancient peoples, especially the Celts. The Forest appears to be Nature presented as 'red in tooth and claw' to a certain degree, the hobbits are not in a tamed landscape but in an ancient, wild survivor of ancient times, with danger as well as beauty. Is Old Man Willow any more to be blamed for seeking some extra nourishment than a Venus flytrap swallowing unwary insects? Now Goldberry seems again to have a classical aspect, namely the naiads, water spirits of streams and rivers. Their counterparts, the tree-spirit dryads have been changed way out of recognition in LoTR into the ents. Again the naiads became genii loci and many Roman shines were built at springs. This survives in some little way today, for who has never thrown a penny into a wishing-well? Therefore Goldberry again could be a Maiar-esque spirit much like Tom. Well, so much for my wittering. Down to the more concrete! Further to the farming aspect of T&G we have candles, probably beeswax, blankets, likely wool (and mention of flocks of sheep on the Downs in times gone by) and the stone construction of Tom's house itself. So they had access to wool (could have kept sheep or maybe collected wool from the hedgerows etc where sheep tend to luxuriate in a good scratch in the spring). Also Tom must either have had a quarry or recycled building stone from the ruined settlements of the Dunedain. Mention is made both of a vegetable garden (beans on poles) and a flower garden. Meanwhile, on Barrow-bypassing, here's the link that Esty mentioned above - http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=1852 Now a thought which has never struck me before, (doh!). Tom fails to become invisible when he puts on the ring. Sauron, as far as I can make out, was not invisible during his epic battle with Elendil, Isildur and Gil-Galad on Mount Doom, though he was wearing the ring. This seems to argue that Tom and Sauron are at least similar types of beings, be that Maiar or related spirits. Perhaps invsibility was one of the things implied by Gandalf when he said that the ring would give power according to the stature of the wearer, ie to elect whether to be invisible or not when wearing the ring?
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#55 | ||||
Stormdancer of Doom
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#56 | |||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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#57 | |
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Maybe Tolkien is looking at it from a mainland European way, and C.S. Lewis is looking at it from an English (Wales doesn't even have an East coast, and Lewis was not Scottish or Irish). Anyway... I seem to feel that for some reason, Tom is on a different level to the ring, he is more eathy, more base material (I don't really know how to put it). Tom is unaffected by mortal troubles, and even Maiaric(?) troubles, I think (except for the whole "Last as he was first" thing). But he is still alive, which I think makes him even more interesting, not like the Ainu who are not really alive (I supose you could argue agaisnt that...) But now I've been reminded of a completely different idea which I mentioned above: Is the fact that Sam doesn't doesn't dream here important? Does it show that he is not affected by things? ... Or am I just overthinking an unimportant idea?
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#58 |
Newly Deceased
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I've thought about Bombadil a bit. I've also posted this in a different thread, because I figured more people would read it that way.
I have a little theory about Bombadil, and it goes like this. e may be an anomaly, but in my view he is quintessential to the books, because he shows Tolkiens world is essentially one of powers. This is evident when Gandalf tells Frodo about his imprisonment in Orthanc. ('Yes, I, Gandalf the Grey,' said the wizard solemnly. 'There are many powers in the world, for good or for evil. Some are greater than I am. Against some I have not yet been measured. But my time is coming) This is defined in a spheric, or topical world way. Each 'power' (this is of course the Valar and Maiar, but also the Istari and the ringwielders) has its field of influence, or care/stewardship. This is evident in Rivendell and Lorien being places where the decay of the world is halted for some time, and the memory of the ancient days of Middle-Earth can still be felt. Elrond and Galadriel both have, through their rings, a stewardship of sorts, but of a physical place. Gandalf is also a steward, but in a more general sense: he is a carer for the children of Iluvatar. He says exactly this to Theoden on his suicide rampage ('I too, am a steward') From the Silmarillion: Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience (...) though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness. (Silmarillion) He is after all, ‘a servant of the secret fire’ and ‘wielder of the flame of Anor’ (which is the ring Narya, the ring of fire): It is described as having the power to inspire others to resist tyranny, domination, and despair (in other words, evoking hope from others around the wielder), as well as giving resistance to the weariness of time: "Take now this Ring," he said; "for thy labours and thy cares will be heavy, but in all it will support thee and defend thee from weariness. For this is the Ring of Fire, and herewith, maybe, thou shalt rekindle hearts to the valour of old in a world that grows chill" (Círdan the Shipwright to Gandalf).. Being a power (a good power at least) essentially involves being a steward. Look also at Melian and her girdle. Aragorn who spends many years protecting the Shire and other parts of the world. Saruman who becomes steward (and eventually a locked-in gatekeeper) of his own fortress. This is true for Sauron as well, who wields his power in the form of influence (eg. pulling snow from Caradhras). His servants perform the physical acts. All the more due to his no longer having a physical body. And take Denethor, he is no more than a steward. As opposed to Theoden who is a steward to his people ('what will you say of the children of Rohan, who lay dead at helm's deep' as he says to Saruman.. imagine Denethor saying that). To me, Bombadil is so important because he symbolizes exactly that. By showing us the gentle but all-encompassing power Bombadil wields when he is within his own domain (evident because he is unaffected by the rings power, and has power to hold Old man willow and the Barrow Wights), Tolkien in a way shows us how and why these powers exist in the world. As has been remarked here, Bombadils interest and influence go no further than the borders of his land, the boundaries of his sphere. Therein he is all-knowing and omnipotent (again, in a gentle way). As such he is to me Tolkiens way of illustrating the way powers manifest themselves and interact in his world. Bombadil also makes us see the difference in the way the good and evil powers manifest themselves. Was not the fall of Melkor a result of the fact he was not satisfied with where the limits of his influence or care lay, though they were the broadest of all the ainur. His very aim was to reshape the world as he saw fit (changing the songs of the other ainur , destroying the lamps ). But when the Valar retire to valinor after the destruction of the lamps, he literally dilutes his essence, his power all over Arda, marring everything. Hence, he is not strong enough to withstand the Valar at the time of his first imprisonment (in the Halls of Mandos). "The Morgoth" was a term given to the person of Melkor/Morgoth in his complete power over the matter of Arda: therefore Dragons, Trolls, Orcs, and even Angband were in a way part of "The Morgoth", but not part of Melkor/Morgoth. While Melkor/Morgoth was eventually executed by the Valar, the only way to destroy "The Morgoth" would be to completely destroy all of Arda and render it anew: a task the Valar could not do without also destroying the Children of Ilúvatar and therefore unthinkable. source: http://www.indopedia.org/Morgoth.html#Names_and_Titles That's why the valar can only banish his fëa and cast it into the void, instead of destroying him. (see also: http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/F%C3%ABa). So in this way Melkor as a power has gone the furthest, dispersing himself so his influence is felt everywhere, but at a high price. But I digress. I think the notion of stewardship is essential here. Being a steward not for one's own good or to counter one's own fears (Saruman, Denethor), but for the good of the world. This is of course a very Christian thing and biblical (man is a steward to world) which is not surprising given Tolkiens background. To me Bombadil illustrates this so well because of the small sphere of his stewardship. And his comical reaction to the ring. He is the only incorruptible power (remember, Gandalf wouldn't touch the ring), save Illuvatar perhaps. Of course this supports the theory he is (in the logic of the tale) the embodiment of Illuvatar. But.. I think it's better to interpret him as an enigma illustrating some essential points of Tolkiens world and philosophy, then to try and force him into the laws of logic inherent to this world. Tolkien said something similar in one of his letters (can't be bothered to look it up, sorry ![]() Too bad every adaptation of Tolkiens work (all movies, radio plays etc.) I know of has failed to see Bombadils significance. |
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#59 |
Flame Imperishable
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Lately I have had a new thought about Tom Bombadil.
Instead of the carefree man who cares nothing about the world around him, I now see him as an example of near perfect self-discipline (at least, but the time of LOTR. He seems a little more "uncouth", shall we say, in AoTB). First of all, look at his surroundings. He lives in a quiet place in the edge of the world, where no-one passes. Out of the way, you might say. There, he lives a quiet existence, within his own land, not impinging upon anybody else's land. His land is a land where nobody likes to go. For instance, it has the Old Forest, which has become dark and evil because of Old Man Willow's influence, and hates people, especially hobbits, particularly after they burnt some of the forest. More importantly, his land includes the Barrow Downs. This dark, damp, misty place is a traveller's nightmare, and people try to avoid it as much as they can. There is a dread about the place, and people for miles around had probably heard rumours about the Barrow Wights and their foul deeds. Most people would be intimidated to have such a place near their home, or even within many miles of their home. But Tom Bombadil doesn't mind. He walks in the forest, with wicked trees, and in the Barrow Downs, among the wights, yet no harm comes to him. The usage of his power is also interesting. We hear that "Tom is master", yet we don't see him bending others' wills to his own. Unlike Sauron, we don't see him trying to control anyone or take over any more land. He has an immense power, yet we see that unlike most others, he is not corrupted by it. He doesn't try to dominate. He is the master, and only intervenes when he has to (for example, saving the hobbits). But generally, he lets everything get on with its own existence. Bombadil also wanders around his land, never getting tired of it,, never seeking any more. Instead of trying to have more, like everyone else in Middle-Earth, he is content with what he has. More than that, he is happy with what he has. The fact is, within his lands, he can do whatever he wants, but he never goes out of the borders he sets himself. Next, look at Tom himself. He is in the shape of a man, yet he is far more powerful. He is grounded to the earth, to Arda, completely, even more so than elves. You can see this by the way that he can talk to trees, and banish wights. The fact is, Arda itself is has both sides, and Tom is master of both. One is the side of the living, the normal side, and the other is the darker side, the side of spirits and Ainu and dead elves, the side that Frodo sees when he puts on the ring. The wight, for instance, is present on both sides. he is made of bones in the physical world, but his main power lies on the other side, where he is a powerful spirit capable of evil spells. Tom Bombadil gets rid of both. He sends away the wight ("banishes the spirit/demon") and as this is what is holding the physical side together, the Barrow Wight's physical manifestation is also destroyed. His power on the earth side is shown in his ability to talk to trees, and cover great distance at speed. Just as powerful as he is on the spirit side, the world of darkness, he is connected to the Earth and nature. I think that this is where his real power lies, rather than in the shadow world, and that he is so firmly grounded in the natural physical world that maybe some of this power passes onto the shadow world, and I think that that is what gives him power there. He is a figment of nature, singing, and walking among the trees who interact with him. He acts with the flow of the world, rather than trying to change it like Men, or keep it the same like elves. This is an important aspect because he goes along with the world like water in a river. He doesn't try to do anything to hinder anything or start something new, and just accepts the way things go. The reason that I think that the ring has no power over him is that he is so manifested in the world of light that he cannot be dragged into the world of shadow, even by the power of the ring. The ring's main power is in the shadow world, the realm of Ainu and of elves, whereas Tom Bombadil's main power lies in the land of light, with living, breathing creatures and growing trees. That is why the ring has no power over him and he has no power over the ring. They are on different planes, which don't cross over. This is probably also why he can see Frodo. The border between both worlds doesn't exist for him, and because he is so manifested in the normal world his influence spreads far into the other. He sees Frodo as though he hasn't put the ring on because for Tom, Frodo hasn't left the normal world, whereas for others, Frodo has crossed the border. But I digress. The point is, Tom has incredible powers, and complete control over his realm, but he doesn't seek to dominate others. I'm sure that Tom, if he wanted to could set his sights on all of Middle-Earth, and try to make that his land. He would probably be able to do this, and have all of Middle Earth at his beck and call. But this would go against the nature of tom himself, so this could never happen with him being the same Tom Bombadil. Failing that Tom could (with his immense power) make his land the greatest fortress in the world, and from there launch an attack on the rest of Middle-Earth, but again, that is not his character. He prefers to sit, and watch, as the rest of the world go by, and let it go forwards on his own, without his intervention.0 His singing is another vital aspect of him which seems to annoy many Tolkien fans. But this is a way of showing the way Tom's power works. It is a gentle power, not a harsh spell (contrast this to Gandalf speaking the words on the ring in the Black Speech at the Council of Elrond). It is song, and in this case it stands for happiness, peace and contentment. There is so much going in the world, but he doesn't help, because he probably knows he would just complicate matters further, and it would just be another case of external intervention. There is probably much more going on in that head of his than anyone knows, or can even guess. He is in this mindset (whether naturally or by his choice) and doesn't leave it. Also, there is a very primitive about him singing to the sentient trees (In many old myths they are spirits, but they can't be here because that would conflict with the legendarium). The singing also ties him to the music of the Ainur, and maybe shows him as a personification of that. Tom Bombadil is generous and doesn't even show any signs of temptation. He is in a state where his mind is free from doing such things, and he probably doesn't even think about trying to take over the world. Whether he was like that from the beginning, or whether he trained himself to be like that is anyone's guess, but he definitely had many ages to perfect his outlook on the world if the truth is the latter. He allows things to pass him by, and doesn't reminisce on the past in a nostalgic way, except very rarely, and only when he has a reason to remember (for example when he finds the jewellery in the mound of the wight). The ring, a powerful object that tempted even a Maia like Gandalf, has no effect on him. He doesn't even make the hobbits obey the rules of his land, but allows them to things how they want, and only intervenes when things get dangerous. And not only does he not impose his will on them, but he invites them as guests to his house. All in all, I think that Tom Bombadil represents an image of self discipline. He actually seems to me like a bit like an ideal Buddhist as well: Not attached to anything, allowing things to come and go, yet showing compassion to everyone (Except maybe the Barrow-Wights). In fact, he may even count as enlightened. He does exactly what is right. He prepares the hobbits for their adventure, without putting them through too much danger, and without meddling n the affairs outside his lands. Let's say he did think it through. If he had stepped in and helped, Middle Earth wouldn't be the same place it was in the Fourth Age, Just as the hobbits needed the Scouring of the Shire, the whole of Middle Earth needed the War of the Ring for the whole "coming of age" thing. And think about what would have happened if he had stepped in. What a mess it would be! The Haradrim, Easterlings and Southrons would still be at large, and still enemies with Gondor. They might not have attacked, but there would always be a small chance of that- what else could be done with a huge army now made redundant. Now that they would have had many men to spare, they might have gone on the offensive. And would Minas Tirith survive an onslaught. No-one would be ready, and Rohan would be dying. Théoden would still be slipping into Saruman's evil plots, and Rohan would probably not have come to Gondor's aid. And Saruman himself would have still be trying to place himself as master of middle-earth, and there would be no-one to stop him. And without the thought of joining Sauron stopping him, Saruman might have persuaded Gandalf to join him. And what of th hobbits? They would have just gone back to the Shire, and everything would return to normal. In my opinion Tom Bombadil purposely took the unconcerned approach. The fact is, Tom Bombadil doesn't try to meddle with the world. He takes a small corner that no-one wants, or rather people hate, for himself. He doesn't tame it, for that would be imposing too much control on the area, but he makes i t harmless for himself and for anyone passing through. Unlike Men, he doesn't try to change things to the way he wants, and unlike Elves, he doesn't try to keep things the same. His land, even though it is a sortr of cocoon (or bubble) for him, still flows in time with the rest of the world, and is just as earthly and natural, unlike the ethereal Lórien. The world goes by, but he just has a piece of it in which he allows himself to do things his way. PS. Writing this has given me many more new thoughts on the subject of TB, and I went much deeper than I thought I would in some parts.
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#60 | |
Wight of the Old Forest
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Unattended on the railway station, in the litter at the dancehall
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Wow! That's two fascinating essays, Eonwe and Curunir!
However: Quote:
![]() Let's not forget, however, the other crucial aspect of his Mastership: not only were his songs stronger songs, but his boots also were faster! ![]()
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Und aus dem Erebos kamen viele seelen herauf der abgeschiedenen toten.- Homer, Odyssey, Canto XI |
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#61 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Now we've reached my least favorite chapter. I'm intrigued by Old Man Willow and the Barrow-wight, because of the depth it provides to placing this long tale into a much longer and deeper history. But Tom annoys me.
It's not the poetry, singing, and random oddball-ness of his character. I just try not to read too much into Tom's character and nature, but the fact that much about Tom is an enigma means he attracts a lot of curiosity and questions. I read this chapter and just push Tom aside as an enigma, and leave it at that. I find no interest in trying to uncover anything else about his character, because someone who is 'outside the Lord of the Rings story,' I don't like spending so much time on trying to figure Tom out. And his appearance in the story seems like a deus ex machina to me. But this has intrigued me recently, I remember I think Inzil bringing it up in a different thread: Quote:
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Fenris Penguin
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#62 | |
Wisest of the Noldor
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Quote:
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"Even Nerwen wasn't evil in the beginning." –Elmo. |
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#63 | |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Otherwise: I actually like this chapter quite a bit. More so than the previous one (which I do not particularly dislike, but neither do I particularly like it). It is this beautiful, restful place, Tom is actually not present that much in the form of singing nonsense - he is actually supplying food and shelter and information and ancient lore (which I like really, really a lot). The whole, ahem, incident with the Ring is of course puzzling in terms of "rules" of Middle-Earth/Arda, but that aside it is nice because it offers a bit of a different perspective on the problem. And I like it. Anyway, the "passing of time" as Tom tells his story and then the Hobbits not being sure how much time has passed, isn't that a beautiful description? Doesn't it remind you of when you "submerge" yourselves into some good story you are reading or listening to, and when it for example tells about something that happens at night-time, and then you suddenly look up from the book and realise that it is daylight (or vice versa), and it feels surprising? I also very much like the description of the rainy day. Also Frodo being happy that he doesn't have to leave yet because of it - it also resonates very much, haven't you ever experienced the situation when you would have had to do something (or should have), but external circumstances prevented you from it, and it was actually quite pleasant? And I must be somewhat stupid, but I only now realised that Tom's statement that "this is Goldberry's washing day" (and autumn cleaning) isn't referring to the fact that she is somewhere in some back room doing laundry, but probably (either also, or only) to the fact that the rain is somehow her doing, that the water flowing down from the river also "cleanses" the forest? I was also wondering: are we encountering here some kind of metaphore for natural forces at this particular time of the year? (It should be right after, or around, autumn equinox, for instance. Sort of "washing after the summer's end, up for the new season?" And maybe of course more...) Last of all: Frodo dreams. Again. I very often forget this, because the previous chapter sort of disrupts the counting of the days, but Frodo has been having consequently three of his unusual dreams in a row here. Three days in a row. The future events in the Barrow and the further events will somehow disrupt this, but it is an interesting start of the journey, to say the least.
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"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
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#64 |
Curmudgeonly Wordwraith
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Ensconced in curmudgeonly pursuits
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Everybody knows it was the fox from the "Three's Company" chapter that let Bombadil in on the "Strange doings in this land". Foxes are quite chatty and prone to gossip.
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And your little sister's immaculate virginity wings away on the bony shoulders of a young horse named George who stole surreptitiously into her geography revision. |
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#65 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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I usually blitz read through this chapter, because I want to "get back" to Middle-earth. Tom's house always felt like a detour, but on this reading I'm noticing so much more.
1. The imagery of Tom holding the Ring up to his eye and the hobbits: Quote:
When the Ringwraiths are near, Frodo gets a feeling he is being watched and wants to put on the Ring, but there's been no mention of Sauron's "Eye" yet. 2. All the hobbits dream in Tom's house except for Sam: Quote:
This got me thinking about what does this reveal about Sam's character? He doesn't get pulled into Old Man Willow's dreams and he's the only hobbit in Tom's house who "sleeps like a log." Sam sees things for what they are, he sees through magic. If he was a character in the Wizard of Oz he would see the "man behind the curtain" and he pulls off masks. He has some rather perceptive thoughts on his first encounter with Elves: Quote:
Quote:
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#66 |
Shady She-Penguin
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a far land beyond the Sea
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So, Legate and I wanted to do a reread and cbc commentary... back in 2016. I managed to do six chapters. Today, almost six years later, I decided to resume the project.
![]() So, In the House of Tom Bombadil. Never a favourite of mine, but a harmless, short chapter that has a couple of intriguing elements. I always loved the Narrator's description of Tom's stories about the lost kingdoms of Arnor and how time passed them by. I also think this chapter perfectly conveys a peaceful rainy day mood when you don't have to do anything - or perhaps at most some household chores you've been putting off, such as cleaning or laundry. Everyone's dreams and Tom and Goldberry's warding wishes for the night are very atmospheric too. I also read the thread and noticed people paying attention to the same things as I did this time - the vegetarian menu, Goldberry and Tom's control of the rain etc - but I was also delighted to find very interesting discussion in the beginning of this thread on Goldberry and her relationship with Tom. What stood out to me this time was how the description of Tom first seeing Goldberry sounded very familiar. Tolkien was certainly fond of romantic first meetings in the forest - Thingol and Melian, Beren and Lúthien, Aragorn and Arwen... and Tom and Goldberry.
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Like the stars chase the sun, over the glowing hill I will conquer Blood is running deep, some things never sleep Double Fenris
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#67 | |
Loremaster of Annúminas
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,313
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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