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01-17-2019, 04:29 AM
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#1 |
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,896
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Narmer the Numenorean
Fact: J.R.R. Tolkien stated that the Fourth Age began approximately 6000 years ago, ca. 4000 BC.
Fact: Archaeological evidence shows that Eurasia was in the Late Neolithic/Early Bronze Age at this point. There is no direct evidence of a pseudo-medieval, metal-using, horse-riding culture like Gondor. However: Fact: There is some evidence of horse domestication from 4000-3500 BC in Ukraine, which most maps would place in Mordor. This lines up with the beginning of trade with Gondor and Rohan. Fact: Around 3250 BC (4th Age 750), an 'abrupt cold and wet snap' called the Piora Oscillation took place in Europe and Asia. The causes are debated, but there is suggestion that a volcanic eruption or a meteor strike could have triggered it. Repeated fact: There is now no evidence that Gondor and Rohan ever existed. Fact: The first Pharoah of Egypt, Narmer, took power ca. 3100 BC. His titles included 'Lord of the Two Lands' and 'Uniter of Two Lands'. His ornate crown includes a flourish which could be seen as a highly stylised wing. Fact: 'Narmer' is a valid Quenya name containing the element 'fire' (nar). The second half could be the verb 'to desire', or a truncated form of merca, 'wild'. His alternate name, 'Menes', is a valid Quenya name meaning 'youth who departs' (men-nese). Speculation: I mean, is it even speculation now? Narmer Menes is the last young prince of Aragorn's line, who fled the cataclysm that erased Gondor and plunged the world into disarray. He founded a new (re)United Kingdom in northern Harad, recreating the lost Crown of Gondor as best he could. His names refer to his age when he fled, and to the wild fire (volcanic or meteoric) that took his homeland. Supporting evidence: The second pharoah of the First Dynasty was Hor-Aha, 'impulsive rage' in Quenya. The city of Memphis, founded as his capital by Narmer, was known in Ancient Egyptian as 'the city of the White Walls' - an echo of Minas Tirith. The Egyptians famously adopted the Numenorean custom of preserving the dead. And the use of metal in Egypt 'immediately follows the unification of Lower and Upper Egypt' - Narmer brought it with him. Conclusion: If the Legendarium were true (yes, yes, it's all fiction books, I know), there would be more than enough evidence to establish the First Dynasty of Egypt as direct successors to the Telcontar Dynasty of Gondor. hS |
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01-19-2019, 10:17 PM
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#2 |
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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What about the theories that King Scorpion II and Narmer were one and the same person?
I think that would tend to undermine your theory a bit.
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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01-20-2019, 11:10 AM
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Dead Serious
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Perched on Thangorodrim's towers.
Posts: 3,326
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Quote:
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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01-20-2019, 11:16 PM
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#4 | |
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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Quote:
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...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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01-21-2019, 03:31 AM
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#5 |
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,896
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... or a title?
How's this for an idea: much in the same way as the children of the British crown receive titles to various places (from the Prince of Wales on down to the - what's Harry? - Duke of Sussex), King Elessar could have adopted the same approach for his children. The firstborn would probably be Prince of Arnor, but after that you get into smaller regions. One of the least important is a distant region of Harad, down on the southern reaches of a tributary of the Harnen. The youngest son - Narmer, in this case - was prince and sub-ruler of this land, which we now know as Upper Egypt. So why 'Scorpion'? One option is that it's an insult from the moderately oppressed locals - he's 'the scorpion-prince from the north'. Once the Numenoreans took over fully, it changed in mythological form into a positive name. The other option, and one that gels better with history, is that the Reunited Kingdom engaged in the age-old practice of marriage alliances. The young prince was given two names: one in Quenya (now forgotten), but also one in the Haradrin tongue of his mother. Or even his father! I'm treating him as a son of the king, but given how far away Upper Egypt would be, he'd be more likely to be a nephew or more distant cousin. We have the Duke & Duchess of Kent, who are the Queen's cousins, and their eldest child is in line for the title. I think I actually like this version more. Scorpion was born and raised in Upper Egypt, but still spent a lot of time in Minas Tirith. When the Cataclysm came, he inherited his father's title, and became Prince Scorpion. In what could be either a humanitarian effort or a war of conquest, he occupied and claimed the land to the north, which was hit by the Cataclysm (forming the Delta); there, hailed as heir to the now-lost Reunited Kingdom, he gained his new name of Narmer Menes, the Prince from Out of the Fire. hS |
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01-25-2019, 09:43 PM
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#6 |
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Blossom of Dwimordene
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: The realm of forgotten words
Posts: 10,380
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If I had to pick a Numenorian dynasty in Harad it would be the Ptolemaics, but that implies a RL parallel to Gondor as opposed to the assumption that Gondor really existed as Gondor.
Wikipedia claims Narmer's name likely means "stinging/raging catfish". The first part can sort of fit with his Elvish name and Scorpion title. What does "catfish" mean? A variation of Scorpion? Egyptians would be able to tell the difference, that can't be it. Unless it's Gondorians who never saw Scorpions before and somehow decided the closest animal is catfish? If I accept this idea I also have to maintain that Gondor must have had very poor observational skills. So pray tell, what happened there? Linguistic corruption over the years? Misreading of the hieroglyphs by modern people? What were they supposed to mean initially?
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You passed from under darkened dome, you enter now the secret land. - Take me to Finrod's fabled home!... ~ Finrod: The Rock Opera |
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01-27-2019, 01:51 PM
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#7 | ||
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Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: The north-west of the Old World, east of the Sea
Posts: 3,896
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Quote:
(It would also get rid of the annoying 'Egypt must have been founded by Europeans' theme this thread suffers from; to be clear, I definitely don't believe that, but in the Legendarium, civilisation descends from Numenor, so.) Quote:
If we want an actual explanation... well, Europeans are kind of famous for our terrible habit of saying 'eh, close enough' about species names. Possums, blackbirds, corn... not to mention the ones with weird modifiers. Is 'land catfish' any weirder than 'sea horse'? Alternately, the original meaning was 'scorpion from the sea' - Scorpion for the name, and the sea part because that's what Gondor is now - just sea, out of which came Narmer. Then later, when they mythologised and separated Scorpion and Narmer, they looked at that name and said 'what's a sea scorpion? Must mean catfish!' hS |
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01-27-2022, 03:19 PM
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#8 |
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Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 19
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“Of Eldarion son of Elessar it was foretold that he should rule a great realm, and that it should endure for a hundred generations of Men after him, that is until a new age brought in again new things”
(HoME XII: Part 1, Chapter VIII) Here is a list of Aragorn's heirs with guesses as to when they began their reign. The names of the kings after Eldarion are unknown. The first 50 probably lived before historical times. We may or may not know who the next 50 were. 4380 BC Eldarion 4280 BC I 4200 BC II 4140 BC III 4100 BC IV 4080 BC V 4060 BC VI 4040 BC VII 4020 BC VIII 4000 BC IX 3980 BC X 3960 BC XI 3940 BC XII 3920 BC XIII 3900 BC XIV 3880 BC XV 3860 BC XVI 3840 BC XVII 3820 BC XVIII 3800 BC XIX 3780 BC XX 3760 BC XXI 3740 BC XXII 3720 BC XXIII 3700 BC XXIV 3680 BC XXV 3660 BC XXVI 3640 BC XXVII 3620 BC XXVIII 3600 BC XXIX 3580 BC XXX 3560 BC XXXI 3540 BC XXXII 3520 BC XXXIII 3500 BC XXXIV 3480 BC XXXV 3460 BC XXXVI 3440 BC XXXVII 3420 BC XXXVIII 3400 BC XXXIX 3380 BC XL 3360 BC XLI 3340 BC XLII 3320 BC XLIII 3300 BC XLIV 3280 BC XLV 3260 BC XLVI 3240 BC XLVII 3220 BC XLVIII 3200 BC XLIX 3180 BC L and 3160 BC LI 3140 BC LII 3120 BC LIII 3100 BC LIV 3080 BC LV 3060 BC LVI 3040 BC LVII 3020 BC LVIII 3000 BC LIX 2980 BC LX 2960 BC LXI 2940 BC LXII 2920 BC LXIII 2900 BC LXIV 2880 BC LXV 2860 BC LXVI 2840 BC LXVII 2820 BC LXVIII 2800 BC LXIX 2780 BC LXX 2760 BC LXXI 2740 BC LXXII 2720 BC LXXIII 2700 BC LXXIV 2680 BC LXXV 2660 BC LXXVI 2640 BC LXXVII 2620 BC LXXVIII 2600 BC LXXIX 2580 BC LXXX 2560 BC LXXXI 2540 BC LXXXII 2520 BC LXXXIII 2500 BC LXXXIV 2480 BC LXXXV 2460 BC LXXXVI 2440 BC LXXXVII 2420 BC LXXXVIII 2400 BC LXXXIX 2380 BC XC 2360 BC XCI 2340 BC XCII 2320 BC XCIII 2300 BC XCIV 2280 BC XCV 2260 BC XCVI 2240 BC XCVII 2220 BC XCVIII 2200 BC XCIX 2180 BC C or 3100 BC Early Dynastic Period 3100 BC First Dynasty 3150 BC Narmer / Menes 3125 BC Hor-Aha (Athotís) 54 years Djer (Kénkenes) 10 years Djet (Ouenephes) 42 years Den (Ousaphaidos) 10 years Anedjib (Miebidós) 8+1⁄2 years Semerkhet (Semempsés) 34 years Qa'a (Bienékhes) 2900 BC Sneferka 2900 BC [Horus Bird] 2890 BC Second Dynasty 15 years Hotepsekhemwy (Boëthos) 14 years Nebra (Kaíechós) 43–45 years Nynetjer (Binóthris) 2740 BC Weneg-Nebty (Ougotlas / Tlás) 47 years Senedj (Sethenes) Unknown Seth-Peribsen 2720 BC Sekhemib-Perenmaat 25 years Neferkara I (Néphercherés) 8 years Neferkasokar (Sesóchris) 11 years Hudjefa I 18 years Khasekhemwy (Chenerés) 2686 BC Old Kingdom 2686 BC Third Dynasty 2650 BC Djoser (Sesorthos / Tosórthros) 2649 BC Sekhemkhet (Tyréis) 2650 BC Sanakht (Necherôchis / Necherôphes) 2643 BC Khaba 2637 BC Huni (Áches) 2613 BC Fourth Dynasty 2613 BC Sneferu (Sóris) 2589 BC Khufu (Cheops / Suphis I) 2566 BC Djedefre (Rátoises) 2558 BC Khafre (Chéphren / Suphis II) 2570 BC Baka / Bauefrê (Bikheris) 2532 BC Menkaure (Menchéres) 2503 BC Shepseskaf (Seberchéres) 2500 BC (Thamphthis) 2496 BC Fifth Dynasty 2496 BC Userkaf 2490 BC Sahure 2477 BC Neferirkare Kakai 2460 BC Neferefre Izi 2458 BC Shepseskare Netjeruser 2445 BC Nyuserre Ini 2422 BC Menkauhor Kaiu 2414 BC Djedkare Isesi 2375 BC Unas 2345 BC Sixth Dynasty 2345 BC Teti 2333 BC Userkare 2332 BC Meryre Pepi I 2283 BC Merenre Nemtyemsaf I 2278 BC Neferkare Pepi II 2200 BC Neferka 2183 BC Merenre Nemtyemsaf II 2182 BC Neitiqerty (Nitocris) Siptah I |
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02-03-2022, 11:50 PM
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#9 |
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Regal Dwarven Shade
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: A Remote Dwarven Hold
Posts: 3,589
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This is quite interesting because it does leap out at me that the final end of Aragorn's line, by this extrapolation, approximately coincides with the end of the Old Kingdom of Egypt.
The start of the Fifth Age, perhaps?
__________________
...finding a path that cannot be found, walking a road that cannot be seen, climbing a ladder that was never placed, or reading a paragraph that has no... |
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02-07-2022, 02:59 PM
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#10 |
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Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 19
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It very well could be, thanks to Huinesoron's insight.
http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthread.php?t=19474 |
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