LOTR Astrology Project (Introduction)

[THE Ka]

I've had this idea in mind for years and have never had a chance or place to express this project or ideal. What i've longed to write down and share to others is the more "detective" delving part of being a lotr fan. The combination of astrological knowledge and Tolkien's lotr timeline can provide amazing results as to understanding characters better. Most of all, understanding character's general personality make-up.

I wish to offer other members here to "sign up" on this project if you seem interested. The requirements are simple and easy. You must have some understanding of most of the characters (Well, of course! you've read some of the books right?) and some understanding of basic astrology (this last one is optional, you can just come by to learn ). Another is that you would feel obligated or responsible enough to meet simple deadlines. If you can write an classroom essay on time, you can pass this one.

If you feel that you are interested in astrology and the character's in lotr, and have read the requirements, you may send me a message via my account to request a spot on the project.

Any questions? You can leave them here. I will try to answer them all. If you see that your question is already posted, read the reply to save space.

Thank you! Hope you the reader feel intrigued.

~Ka~

[Encaitare]

So what exactly is the aim of this project? To analyze the characters' traits by the stars/planets under which they were born?

And what sort of responsibilities will this require? You say it would just be "simple deadlines," so hopefully I can get in some astrological fun between the various essays I'm supposed to be writing...

[THE Ka]

Well, for your first question. Yes and both no. One thing that Tolkien has a habit is that he does not provide us with full birthdate, time of birthdate, location of birthdate, ect. Which are very important in astrology. But, there are loopholes you might say. If you know about your twelve major signs, and what sets them apart from others (characteristics) then you will find this very fun. As for birthdates, the only one provided (Besides both Bilbo and Frodo) is that of Aragorn and he is born on March 1, which would make him a Pisces, the Compassionate. I promise not to become too complicated in my teachings so, this will be just the basics of astrology. When i do have a well educated team, then we will get a little more into the inner mechanisms.

For you second question, yes you will have to write about your findings and thoughts. Giving an explanation is also part of it. So, basically, support your facts or findings. As for fun, well, expecting this from me and how i only hang around in middle earth mirth, yes there's going to be many jokes about some of our findings.

If you are interested in learning before a team is essembled, check these resources out. They are a great help:

Website:
www.astrologycom.com i swear everytime that this site was written by a student of the great Isabel M. Hickey. Sometimes i find direct quotes. On a rating of one to ten on factual and strait-forward info. this site is a ten of great acheivement.

Books: Most factual astrology info. (that isn't a big waste of publication) are some of the older books. try to avoid books that specify only on one aspect (ex. " Ted's Guide to Sun signs in the north node"). This for you as a beginner will confuse you beyond belief. Below are some books that are tried and tested and get my seal of believeable:

What's Your Sign? A Cosmic Guide for Young Astrologers
by Madalyn Aslan, Jennifer Kalis
yes, yes, you may be thinking "i'm not a kid!" But, believe me, it will help you out alot. This is wonderful first steps for any beginner wether you're 7 or 67. It explains the who, what ,when, where and why. It also, unlike most astrology explains the greek orgins of the signs. very, very good resource.

Heaven Knows What: Do Your Own Horoscope in Just 30 Minutes! (Llewellyn's Popular Astrology Series)
by Grant Lewi
This book is the ULTIMATE resource for any beginner. i absolutely love this book. Clear to the point, down to earth, Lewi explains every thing to you with ease. Confidguring youre birth chart is as easy as matching shapes with this book. I suggest that you read this as your first book.(this book is a second addition but, still the same as the first. The only difference is that the older one says, "in just 15 minutes"

Intuitive Astrology : Follow Your Best Instincts to Become Who You Always Intended to Beby ELIZABETH ROSE CAMPBELL

most beginner's and even professionals think that your horoscope is set in stone, and that's how it will always be. Yeah, right! This book gives a unique look at some of the most forgotten basics of astrology. this book gives clear steps as to how to read signs, houses, ect. with ease, also how to understand yourself or other signs. A good book for the beginner with some experience with other authors or, just little experience.

[Encaitare]

Thanks for those answers, sounds pretty good to me.

I've got two books on astrology; one is a coffee-table book from the 60s or 70s that I found on the living room bookshelf, and it was what first got me interested in astrology. It's called "The Compleat Astrologer," and while it's a little dated it's still very informative. The newer one I have which I used to do my horoscope/birth chart belongs to the KISS ("Keep it Simple, Stupid") series, and it's full of nifty facts and tables and whatnot. Unfortunately they won't be of any help on this project, but it's still quite helpful.

I've bookmarked the site you provided; I'll be sure to check that out.

Hey, Downers, come join the fun!

[Elennar Starfire]

Bookmarked the site, now to find the time to look around... Anyway, it sounds like a load of fun. I've always wanted to learn more about astrology and such things, but always had other priorities or forgotten about it.

[THE Ka]

Yeah. Astrology has always been a 'read on the southsound buses while going to work' hobby. But, i have found that with the right resources it won't discourage you. I have soo much material prepared. one of the first will be the " The Water&fate trio" essay, focusing mostly on the characters that proably or most definately have water signs (Cancer, Scorpio, Pisces). Just to give you all an advanced view. Next i think i will explain or rather discuss the dilemma of which sign is which for frodo and bilbo (sept.22 falls on a switch over date in the astrological calendar! very confusing! but, fun to find out.) Just to give a heads up, there will be alot of Hypothesizing and hopeful guesses for us all to make. So, with that in mind, not all answers are "concrete". You will proably change them often upon recieveing new information.

hope this helps! And a big cosmic thank you to all who wish to join! You don't know how long i've wanted to start this!

~Ka~

[Elennar Starfire]

Ah, I feel so much more knowledgeable after reading the encyclopedia entry on astrology...now I've got to read about all the signs...I'm taking notes. (you should be impressed, I almost never take notes.) Once I've finished my reading and sorted out my notes, I'll post a bit of the basics for everyone, if ye like.

[THE Ka]

Thanks Leny! that would be great help. Maybe it might even attract other downers to join. Seeing their own sign and such. Once again thanks for you both for your interests. I just can't wait to post all of my findings and get this project started.

[The Barrow-Wight]

I'd like to see this topic as it applies to Middle-earth, so let's get it rolling as soon as possible, please.

Thanks.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by The Barrow-Wight

I'd like to see this topic as it applies to Middle-earth, so let's get it rolling as soon as possible, please.

Thanks.

It will, trust me. But, I must allow my students and piers sometime to gather about information. When the first reply from one of them appear, the project will unfurl. Thank you for your polite reply.

With Respect,

~Ka~

P.S. Thank you very much for your help with the Balrog thread. I hope now that this obloquy will show more respect to other members, and to not take their insecurity out on others. Once again thank you.

[The Barrow-Wight]

While we are waiting for the 'students', let's review Idea + Example = Better Topic (not Idea + Idea + Some More Ideas About The Idea). The thread creator should be the provider of examples that are the impetus for input from other members.

[THE Ka]

alright fast one. Here you go. happy?

[THE Ka]

Ok, since I appariently have to post material now, here's an EXAMPLE of what we WILL be DISCUSSING. i'll start off with the first character in this essay. Or the first water sign the Cancer born, or otherwise known as Boromir.

Part I : The Cancer and the Ring
Boromir undoubtly is a cancer, for many reasons mostly pretaining to his life goals, ideals and personality. It is mostly other characters inthe felllowship or his family who reveal these clues as to what boromir is. Gandalf for example, states to Denethor in the third book that boromir was a "masterful" man. If you break down this you find your basic words to compare. masterful otherwise means, domineering and self-centered where the profit is. Back to the cancer ideal, these two traits are well developed in the cancer native, though they are rather oblivious to admit it. "Cancer is protective, even possessive and can be a jealous, though more from insecurity than simple desire to dominate."(Astrologycom) Boromir could possibly near the end of his time with the fellowship have developed a sense of insecurity. Besides the mastery of the ring, boromir could have had another reason. Cancer's are very attached to their homes, families and tradition. For these reasons boromir might have felt a strong homesickness or a feeling of being out of place or lost. These are very apparent in the chapter "the council of elrond" and in the chapter following boromir's death. He makes his opinion quite clear that he is homesick, lost, and wishes his demands to be met at that exact moment.

Cancers as a vital sign are quite weak, mostly depending on good partnerships, family and friends to support them. This might be another reason for Boromir's sudden concern with his friendship with Frodo. Not only does he wish to return home as soon as possible, he wants a good reason to return and make his father pleased. "The emblem for Cancer is the Crab, a creature with a very hard shell which protects a soft interior. The crab walks sideways, which is how the Cancerian skirts around a problem until forced to take it on with gritty determination and a creative flair." (Astrologycom) As you can see, Boromir was doing what most cancers do best. Avoiding the problem head on, with the easiest way out. unfortunately, this proves a end to himself. But, like most cancers, he learns in the end that it is no use to abondon responsibility and not expect the punishment in return. Another example that boromir is a cancer is what his brother states to Frodo and Sam. "And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and of the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king." (Lord of the rings p.655)
Clearly, Boromir was well concerned about the welfare of his family and possibly the advancement of. Cancers are willing to go to the edge if need be to support their family, doing eveything possible to make sure that they are safe or happy. As of this Cancers are very motherly and supportive of their loved ones, their only goal being their families' love in return. With all of this in mind, it is easy to say that Boromir is a original Cancer. Devoted to family, country, tradition and the welfare of those who are dear to them.

This is the first part of the Water Trio essay. As it is analyzed, more adamptions will be made. This is were i let you the project members join in to discuss, analyze and add on whatever they deem appropriate. Later on we will re-write this as a whole with all additions or corections. Then we can discuss matters further and have a little fun as well.

~Ka~

P.S. This is only my opinion but, i believe this is just a really bad brainstorm. it needs other's input. Please come and help!

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by The Barrow-Wight

While we are waiting for the 'students', let's review Idea + Example = Better Topic (not Idea + Idea + Some More Ideas About The Idea). The thread creator should be the provider of examples that are the impetus for input from other members.

I read your post. Good job, but you and others surely mean Idea+Example+Confidence+Stamina+ a little bit of Intuition = Awsome Post?

okay. that was lame but, i always have to be prepared if someone doesn't like my dry humour or wit... Thanks for the post link anyway.

~Ka~

P.S. To answer your student inquirery, i gave them the option of doing homework. Thankful for me, this post will turn out great because of that. As for being in my teaching mode, i'm more easy than others. My teaching methods are easy for others. But, the results might vary. Who knows where this will lead to. Maybe we might have a novel or textbook.

[Encaitare]

Boromir undoubtly is a cancer

As a Cancer who has researched her sign quite thoroughly, I must beg to differ.

I know that the excellent example you gave was meant to be just that -- an example -- but it could definitely serve as a starting point.

When I first thought of what sign Boromir might have, the sign that immediately came into my head was Scorpio. This sign is ruled by Mars, the namesake of the god of war, and Pluto, which according to Astrologycom is "the planet of transformation." Astrologycom also says that as a fixed sign, it is "strong and solid." Boromir, a warrior, is indeed "strong and solid," and he does go through transformation-- albeit not until his death.

Boromir pre-Quest is a noble and highly respected man. "Scorpio governs will and authority." (Astrologycom). This would certainly be a necessary trait for someone who was more than likely to inherit the Stewardship of Gondor. Scorpios make good soldiers or sailors: they like discipline and respond to it, perhaps with a view to inflicting it themselves in due time. (The Compleat Astrologer). While I think that "inflicting" is too harsh a word, you can get the idea. Boromir is a leader; he's used to being in charge and having people listen to him.

When he arrives at the Council of Elrond and is "told off" a couple of times (about Aragorn's true identity, not being able to use the Ring), he's a bit put out because he doesn't have all the answers. He did, however, come to figure something out: the meaning behind the cryptic dream that he and Faramir had. "Keys to your success are a strong will and the ability to get to the bottom of things. You want answers and will doggedly persist until you get them." (Astrologycom). He did get his answers, even if he didn't like them all so much.

Scorpios are often jealous, and this jealousy combined with their determination is not a positive thing. This was seen when Boromir tried to seize the Ring from Frodo: he was convinced that he was right, and he thought that he could not be stopped. The Ring could only have served to amplify these traits.

The symbol for Scorpio is obviously the scorpion, a deadly creature not to be trifled with, hence Boromir's stamina and his ability to slay so many of the attacking Uruk-hai even as he was being shot. Yet the eagle is sometimes used for this sign as well, which would symbolize "the power also to rise above wordly diffculties, to soar away from any earthbound antagonism." (the Compleat Astrologer). Through giving up his life to defend Merry and Pippin, Boromir was able to "soar away" from the greed and negativity he had showed previously in trying to take the Ring, and redeem himself.

One reason I'm a bit skeptical about the idea of Boromir being a Cancer is that most Cancerians not only care about their families, but they want to start a family of their own. Boromir was always more interested in war and glory than settling down with a nice woman... perhaps Faramir would be the Cancer? I'd like to explore that idea a bit further, but alas, no time as of now.

[THE Ka]

hee hee . Sounds like your talking about me... (i'm a sun sign: scorpio, moon sign: pisces or in other words the biggest rebel around.)

Good point. But, i'm still curious about something. Yes, Cancers are willing to start their own family as well as helping their own, but with all water signs is their basic foundation. Emotion! All water signs are controled by their emotions. Interesting thing though, scorpios may not be into the whole "family" idea but, they do govern a partial aspect of love.

"Water signs are plastic, unstable, reflective, reponsive and fertile. The keyword for the water signs is "emotion" for water has to do with our emotional vehicles and the astral level of expression...
Scorpio, the Fixed water sign represents the control and mastery of the meotional nature throgh loving Will...
Scorpio is 'the stagnant waters of the marshes; unhealthy and hidden things which must be brought to light and transmuted.' " (Astrology a cosmic science, Isabel M. Hickey)

So, now we still can say Boromir does have feelings but, he's not the "emotional genorator" as Cancer is. Scorpio's are emotional sponges, soaking up every emotional response to a person, place or thing to better understand it. Also Scorpio is what is known as a "Mental" sign. They would rather use their minds then brute reasoning. I can see this when boromir tries to perswade Frodo (a Libra) to take up his advice and road home. Only problem is that Libra's take forever to make up their mind, (the whole scale ideal) weighing out everything to make the best choice. Frodo might have been thinking only on the present, but Boromir had been collecting emotional information on him for months. (Scorpios make excellent stalkers, spies, ect.) And i think that might had been why boromir was impatient to act. He saw in the situation that if he had the most information on this choice than fordo did, why shouldn't frodo take it up? Ending result: Undecision+Calculated Perswasion= CONFLICT.

Another aspect that would be good to know is what makes a fixed sign a fixed sign?
"the fixed signs are Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. the fixed signs manifest as "Will". They follow the Cardinal signs. They are the most consistent and persistent of the signs. They are reticent and non-committal on first approach. The force in fixed signs becomes a quiet, organizing force. Fixed signs indicate action motivated by principles. They are unswervingly stubborn and will never deviate form a set path unless they want to do so. They are the planners, theformula makers, and the construtors. The fixed signs are the most difficult to describe for their basic motivations are seldom obvious and they do not reveal them willingly. They are reservoirs of energy and power. They have a definite pattern and resist all outer interference that will alter it." (Isable M. Hickey)

From this wonderful description, I can see that this seems to describe the dwarves more than Boromir but, some aspects do mention some patterns of his. At first, Boromir never bothers with Frodo with questions. Later on though, it becomes very apparent what Boromir is after. Another influence is what the ring did to Boromir. Both the ring and Sauron are wonderful examples of the Darker side of scorpio, or the Pluto aspect of pluto, not the Minerva aspect (I will explain this in a later essay). One aspect of any scorpio weither positive or negative is control. What the difference is how they recieve that position. A more positive scorpio would build up allinences of loving will, or friendly persuasions through motivation. A darker scorpio aspect would be ruthless and destructive to make their point known and demands made. With this in mind, we can see that the ring didn't own Boromir, but gave him a more seemingly at that point in time better advantage. Scorpios' like to stay ahead of the game at all costs. This is one reason why they are known for stamina and deturnmination.

As I mentioned before, Boromir is not without emotions. Scorpio governs generation, degeneration, and regeneration. Scorpio individuals have strong passions that need regenerations. Or how Isabel M. Hickey explains:

"Scorpios are truly powerful when they do not seek power for self, but seek to be used by the power to heal and bless others. Their goals are reached by service, purity, compassion, and humility. When they serve others and forget themselves they are truly dynamic and majestic. Scorpios are not likely to have a happy marriage until they have redeemed and transformed their natures. Yet marriages and relationships are extremely important for them. Their regeneration lies in learning to be cooperative and outgoning towards others." (Isabel M. Hickey)

Scorpios (I should know this...) would love nothing more than to live out their lives alone on Private Islands away from the world and others. But, unfortunately, we can't. In other words, Scorpio the passionate, must become Pisces the Compassionate.

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As for Faramir, I am not really sure. But, i see more of a Sagittarius or Pisces than Cancer. Faramir is willing to change on dime you might say, something both these signs are able to do.

As for a keywords of the day, here they are:

Cardinal signs (Cancer, Libra, Aries and Capricorn): interested in crisis, in activity and what is going on.

Fixed Signs (Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius) : Interested in values and ideas.

Mutable Signs (Gemini, Virgo, Pisces and Sagittarius): Interested in people and relationships.

Hope you all enjoy.

~Ka~

[Elennar Starfire]

It seems the more I read the less I know...I've got a lot of catching up to do.

At least there seems to be agreement that Boromir is a Water sign, if not which one.

[THE Ka]

yes, i think we've got that covered. but, just wait until i bring up Gandalf! That's going to be a big mystery...

[THE Ka]

I was going to go on with the rest of the water sign essays but, i think i will hold off until we all can discuss them. I don't want to exclude anyone from this project, because i really don't like the idea of leaving anyone behind. So, just to prepare everyone, instead of reading about every other sign, read as much as you can about just Pisces. That is going to be the next sign in discussion. Also try to check out on astrologycom.com about relations... even if they are in the context of a "love" relationship, they still can show a lot of information that will be helpful. i would suggest just to stick with Pisces for now.

Hope this can help everyone.

~Ka~

[Elennar Starfire]

Here it is, all the info you can get from World Book Encylcopedia, condensed by 'Leny. (now you all don't have to go digging through all those encyclopedias for the seperate articles on each sign!)
--------------------------------------------------------------------
The Zodiac

Aries, The Ram: 22 March-19 April
Fire sign, ruled by Mars
Bold, courageous, determined, energetic, hot-tempered, impatient, strong, lose interest quickly in tasks that require much time, like excitement and variety.

Taurus, The Bull: 20 April-20 May
Earth sign, ruled by Venus
Affectionate, conservative, loyal, stubborn, patient, trustworthy, appreciate beauty, comfort, and nature, move slowly, may be lazy, finish what they begin, "down-to-earth", not talkative, hold grudges, even-tempered, but fierce when angered.

Gemini, The Twins: 21 May-20 June
Air sign, ruled by Mercury
Curious, lively, moody, restless, two-sided personality, sees both sides of an issue, change moods quickly, indecisive, talkative, witty, talents for communication and language.

Cancer, The Crab: 21 June-22 July
Water sign, ruled by the Moon
Artistic, emotional, home-loving, instinctive, patriotic, shy, intuitive, sensitive, put dreams over reality, can be hard to get along with, sometimes selfish, aware of public needs.

Leo, The Lion: 23 July-22 August
Fire sign, ruled by the Sun
Cheerful, colourful, generous, kind, proud, powerful, energetic, good leaders, enjoy being the center of attention.

Virgo, The Virgin: 23 August-22 September
Earth sign, ruled by Mercury
Careful, efficient, modest, practical, tidy, intelligent, often have an interest in health, find fault with things other people think unimportant, critical, rely on reason, work in the background, may seem unsympathetic.

Libra, The Scales: 23 September-22 October
Air sign, ruled by Venus
Companionable, diplomatic, friendly, intelligent, pleasant, thoughtful, like balance and harmony, dislike conflict and sudden changes, good at patching up quarrels, indecisive, compromise easily, have an eye for beauty.

Scorpio, The Scorpion: 23 October-21 November
Water sign, ruled by Mars and Pluto
Aggressive, intense, moody, passionate, secretive, quick-tempered, often get respect rather than affection.

Sagittarius, The Archer: 22 November-21 December
Fire sign, ruled by Jupiter
Cheerful, enthusiastic, generous, outgoing, relaxed, warm, like to be surrounded by friends, have trouble following direction, spend money impulsively, thoughtful, fond of exploring ideas, good at far-sighted desicions, like change and travel, independent.

Capricorn, The Goat: 22 December-19 January
Earth sign, ruled by Saturn
Ambitious, cautious, dignified, patient, persistent, practical, don't have much of a sense of humour, enjoy challenge of difficult problems, don't rush into friendships, loyal, stubborn.

Aquarius, The Water Bearer: 20 January-18 February
Air sign, ruled by Saturn and Uranus
Curious, independent, modern, serious, open-minded, outgoing, don't respect tradition, logical and scientific, have many friends but are hard to get to know well, avoid close relationships, support social/political causes with great enthusiasm, enjoy shocking people with their behavior.

Pisces, The Fishes: 19 February-20 March
Water sign, ruled by Jupiter and Neptune
Emotional, friendly, imaginative, intelligent, sensitive, vague, ruled by emotions, talented, have trouble with practical problems, retreat from reality, have a keen awareness of other people's moods, have trouble commiting to long-term action, drift from one thing to another.

The Planets

Mercury-talkative and witty
Venus-beauty and love
Saturn-disciplined
Uranus-change and disturbance
Mars-force and violence
Pluto-secrecy
Jupiter-wise and friendly

The Houses

1st-appearance and personality
2nd-possessions
3rd-family relations
4th-parents
5th-children
6th-health
7th-friends and marriage
8th-death
9th-travel
10th-career
11th-ideals
12th-illness and sorrow
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hope that's useful to someone. If Ka has any corrections, she's probably right. Oh, and the dates vary slightly depending on your source.

I would say Boromir is a Cancer, not a Scorpio. Cancers are "patriotic, aware of public needs, and sometimes selfish". Boromir rationalizes taking the ring as protecting the people of Gondor. He also wants the personal glory.

[THE Ka]

that's really good! The only thing you forgot was the planet neptune, which is okay, many sources sometimes do forget "the cosmic santa claus"...

i do kinda agree that Boromir is more of a Cancer, given that he's not very reserved like a Scorpio... which is one of the biggest points to reconize us. But, he does seem to later change into the beggings of one... but, could this be Sauron's or the Ring's effect on his mind/decisions? Sauron/Ring are some of the most obvious and clear seen Scorpio's who have chosen the easy road... in other words, dark scorpios. some words to describe dark scorpios are:

Ruthless

Destructive

Tribulation

Obsession

Disintegration

Submersion

Instinctive Force

these are all aspects or keywords to the negative expression of Pluto(dark side), the other side being Minerva (Light side)...
Sometimes these are not pointed out very clearly and confuse people, making them to believe that Pluto is just a planet of really bad things. This example is how Pluto works both negatively and positively.

"Coinciding with the discovery of Pluto was the famous kidnapping of the Lindberg baby. Pluto was given rulership over kidnapping. However, only those spiritually tuned in could see the Minerva aspect at work. Up until this time, there were no federal lawsthat were enforced against kidnapping. Throught that kidnapping, the legislature was able to get laws passed which henceforth would protect all children." (Astrology , a cosmic science. p.291)

As you can see, Pluto works by bringing issues up to the surface so they have to be confronted, not side-stepped like a crab. Another aspect we could say is that boromir is a Sun sign: Cancer, Moon sign: Scorpio. Both of which would explain him clearly. Your sun sign is your basic make-up. How you look, act, think, ect. You moon sign effects you also but, not as strongly. In other words, your moon sign is like spices on a ham. It's there but, not in the general view.
i hope i haven't confused every one now...

Once again good job by posting all the signs. Like i said before, maybe this will attract more BD's to come and join.

Good job to all. This is turning out very well.

[Encaitare]

Hmm... Scorpio as a moon sign? Perchance.

'How deep is your love?' With the Moon in Scorpio, depth, passion and intensity imbue your relationships. You are able to inspire others as you will not shirk in the face of unpleasant situations and can speak up for the underdog. You know no fear, and will not be put off by society's views when it comes to choosing who is in your life. But you keep many emotions under wraps, and others can be unaware of your true feelings until you let rip at the last straw. Time alone is important for you to process your feelings and come to terms with some of the injustices of the world. You are no lightweight ,superficial, social animal but you have a strong moral conscience. When tragedy hits, you are a survivor and will return scarred but ready to face life again. Your strong intuition and psychic abilities allow you to see below the surface. (Moon Signs in the Zodiac)

The last bit, "scarred but ready to face life again" certainly reminds me of Boromir's corruption and redemption. I feel that Boromir certainly must have some strong aspects of Scorpio at work within him; whether it's his sun sign or moon sign is open to interpretation.

Will be sure to research Pisces over the next couple of days.

[THE Ka]

Good source. I would also recommend Heaven Knows What also as a good sun/moon sign source (That's where i found out that sun sign: scorpio, moon sign: Pisces is suppositely the biggest rebel known to humankind... and some monkeys too )

Anyway, before i rant away this thread, i will give out homework (don't worry. i have to do it too! Plus, i don't expect a deadline just yet. When i have the essay done, then you can show what your made of, or the facinating-mind-blowing informatin that you've discovered). Homework is: Read and search for anything about Pisces. This next essay is going to be as two-sided and topsy turvy as Pisces themselves when it comes time for analysis. Remember, Pisces are mutuable signs. They change, and transform whenever they feel like it.

Also, we can still discuss Boromir's Sign Indecision Saga afterwards... i have no doubt that it going to haunt this thread. Also, whenever you feel like it (i'm not ordering you to, i don't feel like Sauron today ) invite some members who you think would be interested in this project. i don't feel i started this post very welcomely... So, you can blame me.

~Guru half-jack ka~

[THE Ka]

This one is liable to be interesting. Along with Bilbo and Frodo, Aragorn is the only person in LOTR who we are provided with a full birth date. Aragorn, by Tolkien's statement was born on March 1. So, this would make him a Pisces. There are many traits that Aragorn expresses well enough for us to clearly see that he is indeed, a Pisces without Tolkien's reference even though it will prove most helpful.

Part II

Aragorn was born under the sign of Pisces the compassionate, on March 1. The sun is in Pisces from February 21st to March 21st. One convincing keyfact, even though it is slight, is that Pisces rules the feet in the physical body. Aragorn, among his many aliases is called "Wingfoot" given to him by Eomer. Pisces is clearing up all the other odds and ends left over from the other signs. This is why sometimes Pisces is called "the dustpan of the zodiac". Also along with this is why Pisces seem so remote from the other signs. In Pisces, one fish swims downstream representing personality, while another swims upstream representing the soul. either the personalty captures the soul and is made servant, or likewise with the soul. This brings much suffering to Pisces in their life goals and choices. Questions like, "What is the meaning of life?" really do effect them on a daily basist. The spiritual motto for Pisces is "Serve or Suffer". Pisces are born with this choice, and in aragorn's case very important. Aragorn is faced much with the same choices of that of a Pisces individual. one of the most important choices for him to make is that of his inheritance. When Pisces first become aware of these choices, it is not un-common for them to become recluses. They see this as an tempary "escape" from life. The world is not their habitat, and the need to escape from it is very great. With this in mind, we can see why Aragorn was avoiding his inheritance, by becoming a ranger. Pisceans need to be alone and do need to retreat from contact with the world in order to retain an equalibrium. pisces are sometimes moody and introspective and hard to understand. They actually enjoy the idea of being "alien". Much to Frodo's annoyance this was true with Aragorn. Even though it may seem as if Aragorn was trying to avoid his destiny, he was eventually forced into it. Everything for renewal must go back to it's source. When Pisceans actually do step up to the plate (though through much perswasion and emotion), and connect with their inner source of their Being, they are capable of great achievements. When they do not though, the consiquences are greater than for any other sign. Luckly for Aragorn, this did not happen.

Pisceans suffer from an inferiority complex and a sense of unworthiness. They never feel that they do enough to meet their life goals or choices , so they often overwork. Eventually putting stress and strain on the physical body. After the death of Both Gandalf and Boromir, Aragorn seems to plunge into this "workalcholic escapism". Also, the fact that Gandalf left the leading role up to him, caused him to try his best over and over again. But, no one is perfect or closely perfect forever. This becomes apparent to Aragorn after Boromir and Frodo's conflict. Were aragorn tries his hardest to keep the company together, but fails.
"We shall all be scattered and lost, ' groaned aragorn. 'Boromir! i do not know what part you have played in this mischief, but help me now!"(lord of the Rings, p.395)
and yet again, poor Aragorn is lost in everyone's confusion...
"Wait a moment!' cried Aragorn. 'We must divide up into pairs, and arrange! -- here, hold on! Wait!' " (Lord of the Rings, p.395)

Now, to some, it would seem that Aragorn would feel like biting Boromir's head off at this moment but, under that anger is the divine rule of Pisces. Compassion. In the end, Aragorn know's of Boromir's struggles and how hard he tried to redeem himself. That is why at Boromir's end, we see Aragorn reach such a level of compassion, that it seems almost alien.

Another very interesting aspect of Pisces is that they have a deeply hidden inner pride. Assail it at your peril. Aragorn shows this on his own (at the council it is others who glorify him. much to his annoyance and shame.) when passing Argonath. Frodo notices the almost unexistant pride of aragorn come forth, and how even Boromir had shut up about this.

But, in the end, there is one rule that aragorn eventually came forth to. The only true freedom for Pisces comes through spiritual orientation. When they are true to their real nature, Pisceans have a high and holy destiny and are the true savoius and servants of mankind. They have a great sense of compassion and sacrifice themselves in utter devotion for the redemption of the world. Thus coins the quote, "There is no king who has not had a slave among his ancestors, and no slave who has not had a king among his." (Helen Keller, Story of My Life)

Another trend we see among Aragorn is a love of music and a luck of being a gifted healer. "Pisceans have a deep love of music and are fine musicians themselves when they pursue music as a life work. They make wonderful doctors and in any area of the medical fiels do excellent work." (Astrology, a Cosmic Science. Isabel M. Hikey. p.28) In the houses of healing, he brings Faramir back to a state of conciousness. "King! Did you hear that? What did I say? The hands of a healer, I said." (Lord of the Rings, p.848 that really talkative nurse, Ioreth.)

i hope this intigues you to explore or express your knowledge about this essay. I am hoping to see alot of editing, I feel that this essay is unfinished at the time being.

Go ahead! Feel free to express questions, points, and concern.

~Ka~

[The Barrow-Wight]

I don't know anything about astrology, but I know a bit about the calendars used by Hobbits and how they relate to our current calendar. When Tolkien said 1 March, he meant the first day of the third month of the Hobbit calendar (Rethe), which coincides with the 22nd of February on our modern Gregorian calendar. This still places him within the bounds of our current understanding of Pisces (19 Feb - 20 Mar), but only by a few days.

Likewise, Frodo and Bilbo shared the birthday of 22 Sep (22nd day of the 9th month), which corresponds to 14 Sep on our calendar. This would put the two hobbits firmly within the sign of Virgo (8/23 - 9/22) instead of right on the last day of being a Libra.

My question is, "Do birthdates that fall near the border of two signs share some characteristics of both signs (in Aragorn's case, mostly Pisces but a bit of Aquarius), or do the dates of a sign strictly confine a person to that sign?"

[Encaitare]

Originally Posted by BW

My question is, "Do birthdates that fall near the border of two signs share some characteristics of both signs (in Aragorn's case, mostly Pisces but a bit of Aquarius), or do the dates of a sign strictly confine a person to that sign?"

I did a little quick research on cusps (the "line" of sorts which "divides" the signs) and found this:

In or Out

The Sun can only be in one Sign or another, not in two at once. The center point is considered to be such a small point, that it would cross from one Sign to another in less than a minute; and thus will go from 29 degrees and 59 minutes of one Sign, to 0 degrees and 0 minutes of the next Sign, in a very short time (Signs have 30 degrees, and a minute is 1/60th of a degree). The position of the Sun or any planet is never described as being in two Signs at once - it is in one Sign or the other, even if it is barely into the next Sign, or almost leaving the previous Sign. The only time it would be "on the fence", so to speak, is if its center point were exactly at the Cusp line, which is a rather rare occurance, since the center point and the Cusp line are infinitely small. --Astronomyzine.com

Since the Sun almost every time would be in one sign or the other at the precise time of birth -- it would be incredibly rare for it to be exactly on the cusp -- almost every time you would just have the traits of the one sign. The site I quoted above says that some astrologers believe if the rare circumstance of the Sun being exactly on the cusp were to occur, then traits of both signs could possibly be demonstrated. But since even with the conversion to the Shire calendar, Aragorn's birthdate was safely within the boundaries of Pisces, he would be considered as such and not as an Aquarius.

Thanks for providing the converted date of Frodo and Bilbo's birthday -- that certainly changes a few things!

Now, as for Aragorn the Pisces:

Some positive Piscean traits are that they are humble, compassionate, understanding, kind, and intuitive. Aragorn certainly demonstrates these traits. But what's interesting is that Pisceses are considered to be weak-willed and confused. While Aragorn has his moments of self-doubt, he does not seem to be weak of will -- let's face it; who doesn't have such moments?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on another point, Ka, though it's a minor one this time. Aragorn doesn't seem to have the sterotypical Piscean inferiority complex, at least not in the book. He is a humble man, and he doesn't try and place himself above others, but it seems to me that he knows he's good, in his own quiet sort of way. He has faith in himself most of the time, except as seen a few times, such as when he has to take over for Gandalf, and when things just don't seem to be going his way on Amon Hen ("Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amiss). Otherwise he's pretty confident.

Pisceans can be considered the "poets of the zodiac" (KISS Astrology, by Julia and Derek Parker), and Aragorn does show his hand at verse in the House of Elrond. The book just cited advises Pisceans to "pull yourself together, recognize your own worth, face things as they really are, and learn to cope." This ties in to the point I just made above -- once Aragorn gets past his inital doubt, he is able to become a strong leader.

Here's an interesting fact I found: the color associated with Pisces is a "soft sea-green" (KISS Astrology). This ties in to the green beryl Aragorn finds on the bridge, and the "great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outstretched wings" (LotR, Book II, Farewell to Lorien, which Galadriel gives to him. Another connection is that the color is a sea-green, relating to Aragorn's Numenorean roots.

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by The Barrow-Wight

I don't know anything about astrology, but I know a bit about the calendars used by Hobbits and how they relate to our current calendar. When Tolkien said 1 March, he meant the first day of the third month of the Hobbit calendar (Rethe), which coincides with the 22nd of February on our modern Gregorian calendar. This still places him within the bounds of our current understanding of Pisces (19 Feb - 20 Mar), but only by a few days.

Likewise, Frodo and Bilbo shared the birthday of 22 Sep (22nd day of the 9th month), which corresponds to 14 Sep on our calendar. This would put the two hobbits firmly within the sign of Virgo (8/23 - 9/22) instead of right on the last day of being a Libra.

My question is, "Do birthdates that fall near the border of two signs share some characteristics of both signs (in Aragorn's case, mostly Pisces but a bit of Aquarius), or do the dates of a sign strictly confine a person to that sign?"

Don't worry, this is a common question of both seasoned astrologers and beginners alike. Good point with Frodo and Bilbo... But, i really don't think they are the Virgo type. They seem more Librean. It's characteristics like these that are very useful for people in Bilbo and Frodo's position.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What makes a Libra and Virgo. How they are different.
Many might think that signs that are close together relate to each other mildly... unfortunately, this is not always true with some signs...

Virgo: More of a Perfectionist (of both ideas and people and themselves)
Disappointment, however, can harden you into a cynic and a skeptic. Virgo consequently becomes quite critical with self as well as circumstances, due to the effect of such disappointments on a sensitive and discriminating nature. (Astrologycom)

It is not unheard of for you to use guilt as a weapon. Helping others to improve is one thing, my dears, but pushing them toward goals of perfection they cannot hope to accomplish is quite destructive, as well as impossible. (Astrologycom)

The planet Mercury, governing our intellect and communicative faculties, rules Virgo, where tradition also places the house of its exaltation, so Virgins have a truly intellectual, critical and analytical approach to life. Communication is important and you love books, magazines, and writing. (Astrologycom)

Libra: Has a habit of indecision...
Emotional, physical, and psychological pleasure comes to you from beauty in all its forms. Books, music, flowers, and perfume are typical delights. If your environment is less than pleasing, you can become unhappy without even realizing that your surroundings may be responsible for your despondency. (Astrologycom)

Librans are also subject to interminable hovering between alternatives, or inability to make firm decisions, especially under pressure, when you can be pushed by others into taking steps you later regret. (Astrologycom)

Contrast: Well, as you can see from some of the examples there are differences between signs that are close. The last note about Libra seems to point a finger at Frodo. If you remember, Boromir was quite persasive in getting Frodo to go with him, luckly Frodo weighed his advantages and disadvantages. Also, i really do not see Frodo or Bilbo using guilt as a 'weapon', they tend to use more along the ideas of words or quotes said by that someone...This also can be distinguished by what elemental sign they are. Libra(Air) = intellect and ideas, Virgo(Earth) = material things or concern and security. But, the idea of merging these two signs sounds very close, if we can make a call. But, then which one are they? or are there diferences? (ex. one might be Sun sign: Virgo, Moon sign: Libra, and the other the opposite?)

This will be left up to debate later on, after we have discussed the Pisces essay.

~Ka~

For the BW:
Also, just for reference questions, the info. I found on Aragorn's birthdate came from Appendix B. I wanted to ask the Barrow Wight if this is in Shire reconing or Steward's reconing? And would if it was in Steward's reconing would it be different? I know that Steward's reconing has close to about 365 days, which in times of peace, the Stewards tried to perfect. Until Mordor interupted their studies...

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Encaitare

I did a little quick research on cusps (the "line" of sorts which "divides" the signs) and found this:



Since the Sun almost every time would be in one sign or the other at the precise time of birth -- it would be incredibly rare for it to be exactly on the cusp -- almost every time you would just have the traits of the one sign. The site I quoted above says that some astrologers believe if the rare circumstance of the Sun being exactly on the cusp were to occur, then traits of both signs could possibly be demonstrated. But since even with the conversion to the Shire calendar, Aragorn's birthdate was safely within the boundaries of Pisces, he would be considered as such and not as an Aquarius.

Thanks for providing the converted date of Frodo and Bilbo's birthday -- that certainly changes a few things!

Now, as for Aragorn the Pisces:

Some positive Piscean traits are that they are humble, compassionate, understanding, kind, and intuitive. Aragorn certainly demonstrates these traits. But what's interesting is that Pisceses are considered to be weak-willed and confused. While Aragorn has his moments of self-doubt, he does not seem to be weak of will -- let's face it; who doesn't have such moments?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on another point, Ka, though it's a minor one this time. Aragorn doesn't seem to have the sterotypical Piscean inferiority complex, at least not in the book. He is a humble man, and he doesn't try and place himself above others, but it seems to me that he knows he's good, in his own quiet sort of way. He has faith in himself most of the time, except as seen a few times, such as when he has to take over for Gandalf, and when things just don't seem to be going his way on Amon Hen ("Alas! An ill fate is on me this day, and all that I do goes amiss). Otherwise he's pretty confident.

Pisceans can be considered the "poets of the zodiac" (KISS Astrology, by Julia and Derek Parker), and Aragorn does show his hand at verse in the House of Elrond. The book just cited advises Pisceans to "pull yourself together, recognize your own worth, face things as they really are, and learn to cope." This ties in to the point I just made above -- once Aragorn gets past his inital doubt, he is able to become a strong leader.

Here's an interesting fact I found: the color associated with Pisces is a "soft sea-green" (KISS Astrology). This ties in to the green beryl Aragorn finds on the bridge, and the "great stone of a clear green, set in a silver brooch that was wrought in the likeness of an eagle with outstretched wings" (LotR, Book II, Farewell to Lorien, which Galadriel gives to him. Another connection is that the color is a sea-green, relating to Aragorn's Numenorean roots.

Good observation on the colour schemes. i know i wouldn't have the eye to find it. Another good point on the inferiority complex. Aragorn might not feel that worthless, but he does have moments of doubt. Like you said, who wouldn't in positions like his?
feel free to discuss more on this sign... not all is set in stone .yet.

~Ka~

[Elennar Starfire]

I have two little questions- How do you determine moon signs? And rising signs?

[THE Ka]

these are sometimes hard to figure but, here are some easy steps to get the job done:

Moon signs are...: Just as your sun sign is determined by the position of the sun at the time of your birth, the moon sign is determined by the position of the moon. The sun sign can best be summarized as representing what other people see in you. Your moon sing represents what you see in yourself. Some astrologers, although they are a minority, consider your moon sign to be even more important than your sun sign.

Deturmining your moon sign: This link gives you a wonderful example and hands-on activity.
http://www.ofesite.com/spirit/horosc...n/moonform.htm

Rising signs are... : The Rising Sign governs your outer personality and physical attributes. It represents your self-image and, to a considerable extent, how others see you. It also affects your health issues and the type of illnesses you may experience.
The Rising Sign rules the first house, so its ruling planet is usually designated the ruler of the horoscope. Unless poorly aspected or otherwise weak in comparison with other important planets, such as the planet ruling your Sun Sign (the Sun-ruler), this ruling planet is the most important one in your chart. (Astrologycom)

Deturmining your rising sign: Follow this link to learn more about your rising sign and how to deturmine it. http://www.astrologycom.com/asc.html

Hope this helps all!

~ka~

[Elennar Starfire]

I'd guessed I was Moon sign Gemini...I was right! (I must be better at this than I know! ) Rising sign Aries, Sun sign Sagittarius.



~'Leny (very egocentric today... )

[THE Ka]

Originally Posted by Elennar Starfire

I'd guessed I was Moon sign Gemini...I was right! (I must be better at this than I know!) Rising sign Aries, Sun sign Sagittarius.



~'Leny (very egocentric today... )

Don't worry! Everyone deserves a little self-praise now and then... just don't become a Leo and make it manditory! Thank you for checking those sites out! It really makes me feel that i'm helping someone. The astrologycom rising sign site i'm a little suspicious about (it's a scorpio thing...) and I use a different site for checkups... this is it below:
http://www.astro.com/horoscopes/ahor.asp these are free... as long as you don't go too over board. Then you will not be able to do it until you have logged completely off for the day.

Just to give you a heads up and to anyone who clicks on this link, that this is a little advanced, and you will need to find the latitude and longitude of your birth place and the time you were born... So, below is a site to help with the global location... (remember, "Big Brother" Cosmos is watching...) and you know what? the same site offers a locator too! Whoohoo to the Internet and Astrologers!

http://www.astro.com/atlas/atlquest-eng.html

~Reference Desk Ka~

[THE Ka]

just to check in, if anyone and i mean anyone has anything to add to the aragorn essay, post it now or tomorrow. After that, you will need to look up both Virgo and Libra. I know, I know, even more homework but, the Barrow Wight was nice enough to provide us with the accurate birthdates. (KA to BW: Thanks Alot! It really helped! ) I still am not sure as to were to place Bilbo and Frodo, in either Virgo or Libra but, I know my excellent team will be able to help.


If you have any questions you can leave me a private message on my User CP...


Your friendly Guru,

~Ka~

Before i forget, i need a question asked ever so clearly...
"For the BW:
Also, just for reference questions, the info. I found on Aragorn's birthdate came from Appendix B. I wanted to ask the Barrow Wight if this is in Shire reconing or Steward's reconing? And would if it was in Steward's reconing would it be different? I know that Steward's reconing has close to about 365 days, which in times of peace, the Stewards tried to perfect. Until Mordor interupted their studies... "
I had this under alot of astrology stuff, and it might have been missed. It would really help. thank you all.

[THE Ka]

Okay, I'm reviveing this because Leny awhile back expressed concerns on it's development. Like I promised, since March is over ( Madness of March) I'm going to continue to develop this thread.

First of all, before we pick up where we left off, would everyone who was interested in this project or who participated in it would like to continue?
I will only go along if everyone else wants to.

Second, since Frodo and Bilbo were our last subject, who would like to write the essay on their relation to Virgo?


I hope this helps with everyone's questions and concerns. It would be wonderful if this could be up and running again.


~ Ka

[Encaitare]

I'm definitely interested in continuing.

So we have decided that Bilbo and Frodo were definitely Virgos? I'd like to put my two cents in at some point, but I probably won't have time to do so for a couple of days -- two essays tonight, seeing Spamalot tomorrow , excuses, excuses and all that.

It's good to see this being revived.

[THE Ka]

Good! I hope we just have more people interested...

Frodo and Bilbo being Virgos were ultimately decided when the BW was nice enough to give us their birth date according to our calendar. They fell snuggly into place of that of the Sun sign Virgo. I really thought they were Libras, from their personalities and that my dad is one... The last reason is because I had experience with them. One thing that my father is troubled with is indecision because he wants to weigh things out fairly, this relates to the pictural representation of Libra being a set of scales. Frodo and Bilbo have this same problem with the ring and other ideas.

Oh, no... I almost went on a rant. Good thing that was stopped.

~Ka

[James the Just]

If anyone's interested I know Bilbo's and Frodo's exact birthdates, which, of course, can be used to calculate their signs, etc. Hint: the One Ring was destroyed on March 13, 4502 BC (Gregorian proleptic calendar; the one we use backdated). And here are some very interesting facts; both Martin Freeman and Ian Holm not only have the same sign but decan as well. An incredible coincidence.

[Huinesoron]

Originally Posted by James the Just

If anyone's interested I know Bilbo's and Frodo's exact birthdates, which, of course, can be used to calculate their signs, etc. Hint: the One Ring was destroyed on March 13, 4502 BC (Gregorian proleptic calendar; the one we use backdated). And here are some very interesting facts; both Martin Freeman and Ian Holm not only have the same sign but decan as well. An incredible coincidence.

I'd be interested to know where that date comes from, at least! The Encyclopedia of Arda calendar puts the destruction of the Ring on the 17th March Gregorian, though you could probably account for the difference with some leap year differences.

But even allowing for that, your year intrigues me. In another thread I've calculated Tolkien's date for the end of the Third Age as either 4241 BC (post 2) or 7298 BC (post 16), depending on which of Tolkien's numbers you accept (the latter being more up-to-date). What did you derive the 4502 figure from?

hS

[James the Just]

I've just posted the reason for the 4502 BC date on your other thread. I suggest everyone else read it. It may be the thread that settles the question once and for all, "When did the Ages begin?"
The calendar converter on The Encyclopedia of Arda isn't good. Much better than following the vague suggestions in the Appendix one should look at what Tolkien actually used in his stories. He clearly used the moon phases from the years 1941/42.

'(...) this is the clue to his lunar calendar as finally conceived: the moons in The Lord of the Rings are based on those of 1941--2, but with their dates adjusted on either side of the full moon of 7/8 March to take account of Shire Reckoning. (...)'

The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion

Correlating them with the phases described in the books lets us know what he was maybe trying to conceal; that the year began on Christmas, just like it had in England for hundreds of years until about the fourteenth century, when they changed it to March 25 (Lady Day). Now where have I heard of a calendar's start changing to that date before? C'mon, James, think...

However, I'm assuming the Hobbits didn't use a converted Gregorian. So the March 13 date comes from calculations based on the moon phases back then. In modern times, though, we ought to celebrate it on March 20 (March 19 in leap years). Right at the time of the spring equinox.

[James the Just]

I've just calculated Aragorn's Sun sign. It's 29º Aquarius. Sorry, but he's not a Pisces, regardless of the time of day he was born. If you want to know the degree for Bilbo it is the same as Ian Holmes'.