The Balrog as the Loathly Lady from medieval literature.

[Galin]

Going by BOLT one could say Ecthelion's Balrog plummeted into the fountain with a helmet spike in his rogly body

. . . but in a late text Tolkien wrote that the duel with Glorfindel and "the Demon" may need revision, so who knows.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by mindil

That (plummeting) may be a vote in favor of wings. Things whose airborne-ness depends on wings (birds, planes) will plummet when those wings are compromised. Things that can fly or hover without wings (helium balloons, loose feathers, mists) tend to drift downward when their levitation fails.

Aha! Now we have the answer! Balrogs were full of hydrogen, hence the flames!

[monks]

I'll let you all waffle on...:-D just kiddin...I'll try get round to reading some replies as and when I get a chance. I just bought Hammond and Scull's 'The Art of the Lord of the Rings'. Bit of a hole there in my library. Tut tut. Can you see the bull's head now in the cliff face?

http://www.thewindrose.net/mythopostupdate/

You can clearly see the head of the bull- probably a minotaur. Moria being the labyrinth.

As it states in the essay in the update. I firmly believe Tolkien drew the final version of the picture. Then he turned the page over and drew the faint embelishments. It was a riddle much like the Moon letters he wanted to include in the Hobbit. Ithildin was also on the Doors of Moria linking the two riddles. This is similar to the covering flap in his Land of Pohja illustration: the other side of a turned page revealing something. The rest of the riddle- in fact only the faintest scratchings of it, are in the link. 200 pages written from the close study of the etymology of hundreds of words IN TEXT and how they interrelate in context.

In addition, Check out the bull's head shape and appearance of page 5 of the Book of Mazarbul (Mazarbul = Maze -AR (Sun) Bull).

http://www.thewindrose.net/bullshead2/

`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'

Anor = ...? That's right the Sun. The same sun as 'AR' in Mazarbul. And none of this disagrees with any etymology given by Tolkien because Tolkien was more than capable of layering more than one meaning into words.

wield (v.)
Old English weldan (Mercian), wieldan, wealdan (West Saxon) "have power over, compel, tame, subdue" (class VII strong verb; past tense weold, past participle gewealden), merged with weak verb wyldan, both from Proto-Germanic *waldan "to rule" (source also of Old Saxon and Gothic waldan, Old Frisian walda "to govern, rule," Old Norse valda "to rule, wield, to cause," Old High German waltan, German walten "to rule, govern").

The Germanic words and cognates in Balto-Slavic (Old Church Slavonic vlado "to rule," vlasti "power," Russian vladeti "to reign, rule, possess, make use of," Lithuanian veldu, veldėti "to rule, possess") probably are from PIE *woldh-, extended form of root *wal- "to be strong, to rule." Related: Wielded; wielding.

Of course this links up with the star constellations: Orion, Taurus and the Pleiades. See my previous posts.

http://www.thewindrose.net/predictio...abaranpleides/

Orion = Aragorn (the Three Hunters). Taurus = the Enemy. Pleaides = Arwen (the Seven Stars trapped in the nets of Shelob).

Riddle of the West Gate essay here.
http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/the...ate-drawing-2/

So...the bull is the Balrog because they are both incarnations of the same thing, the Enemy. They are from the Dialectic Tolkien incorporated. His sources: The Republic and the Timeaus. The dialectic is his 'Secret Grammar' from 'A Secret Vice'. There was no little man. That's Tolkien. The grammar is the hands of Ilúvatar, his "symphony". The dialectic being the idiomatic expressions 'on the one hand'...'on the other hand'..as per a conversation ('dialectic' from dialektos "discourse, conversation") as used in The Republic. This is why the bull and the Balrog are the same thing. And if you look again at the first image I posted you can even see the suggested outline to the left of a large axe head behind the minotaur- which doubles for a wing, because wings (Balrog wing) are also part of the hand/arms dialectic. Tolkien puns on the word 'axes'- an axis...the two axes correspond to the left and right hands of Ilúvatar. That's why the Balrog spreads out both wings- it's part of this dialectic symbolism equivalent to the raising of both hands by Ilúvatar which is an act of command (see iglishmek too for the same hand gestures dialectic grammar). That's the symbolism in the Gate of the Argonath, axes and arms..the West and North gate are the same gate, two sides of the same gate. The two gates exhibit asymmetry: two clockwise spirals on the West gate and two raised left arms on the North gate. Did anyone ever wonder why Frodo both hears and sees on Amon Hen, the Hill of Seeing? That's the same asymmetry, an imbalance. Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw are the two hands of Ilúvatar- part of the grammar. The spirals (left and right) are the hands of Ilúvatar- the grammar is all duality and planar geometry. The duality extends to man and woman - and is about the imbalance between left and right- the domination of woman by man-hence the Loathly Lady theme and the Balrog. Left hand = woman. Right hand = man. That imbalance is finally put right at the end of The Lord of the Rings with the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen. The planar geometry (his dialectic) originated from his reading of the Republic and The Timeaus at King Edwards. He went on to finalize his symbolism in The Book of Ishness at the end of that period. Here's the geometry hidden in the landscape just like the Bull is hidden in the cliff face (pun on cliff face of course).

http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/tol...s_door_post-2/

The two hearts in 'Eeriness'...if you study the etymology of the words Tolkien uses in The Music of the Ainur where the geometry is created, you will find it's actually fundamentally about 'the heart'. Music is secondary- from cord, chord etc. See my homepage where I show that and the relation between the two hearts and the two hands of Ilúvatar. The two hearts in 'Eeriness' are the two hands. Tolkien's world is a medieval symbolic landscape where the inner spiritual world is incarnated in the outer world.
Symbolic landscape involving 'planar reversals' logic. See my essay The riddle of the Hidden images of the West Gate.
http://www.thewindrose.net/blogs/a-r...arkanta_devil/

And note how the ear and the eye are on both sides of the face in that map. That's Amon Hen and Amon Lhaw later in The Lord of the Rings. Both that map and Rauros have a line of symmetry down the middle: Tol Brandir at Rauros and the heart of stone in the rock face at the West Gate which is exactly between the two trees/spirals.It's the same system and he never changed it.

Movement between the left and right hands occurs via the TURN. See 'Before and Afterwards' through the megalithic Door- which is the right-angle in the geometry. The movement between is the conversation between the left and right hands- it's a narrative device. At root its not about gender per se..its about manner (etymology Latin manuarius "belonging to the hand," from manus "hand"- see prediction #40) and handedness. That's the grammar. Left and right hand grammar for e.g: Merry and Pippin. Legolas and Gimli. Boromir and Faramir. Théoden and Denethor. Gorbag and Shagrat, etc, etc. Here's the geometry of the grammar, the dialectic at its most simple.

The Music (of the Ainur) is his 'Music of the Spheres' (musica universalis), his symphony. Tolkien's two biggest influences apart from north European literature are Plato and Dante. Minas Tirth- which is intended to "ocularly" suggest Mino Taur (Taur being the great forest of Dante's Purgatory and elsewhere, the maze of the world, hence the classical labyrinth design used in its plan) is Tolkien's Purgatory (more on that if you'd like). Again it's a riddle. The courses of the labyrinth are finally unravelled at the marriage of Aragorn and Arwen culminating at Minas Tirith (Anor). Recall the 'Theseus Theme' (Rateliffe, The History of the Hobbit) in the ball of twine in the Forest of Mirkwood. [And this is why Shelob (spider thread in the maze) is incorporated into this scheme as I state above in my posts. Orion:Taurus Pleiades.] Aragorn = right hand (Moon), Arwen = left hand (Sun). Hence Maze-AR-bul and the Music of the Spheres, Sun and Moon and the Sun and Moon on Narsil which must be reforged, symbolically the two halves of Sun and Moon reunited.



Care to argue any point. Try me.

monks

[monks]

Mithadan. Tolkien's number system was influenced by Dante's. And Dante's was just one example of a much wider religious number symbolism- the Bible, folklore, etc, etc. It was personal and has nothing to do with numerology outside of his own system- for e.g. he is not predicting or making statements about anything outside of his own works. But the outside world, Primary world was influential: Dante.

I first realized that numbers to Tolkien were more important than anyone had thought, around the time I predicted that the Hobbits met Bombadil on the 26th of a month. Turns out they met him on the 26th Sep. That was my first real prediction. Why and how did I predict that?

Why? I realized that dates and numbers were important to him and he was using them as symbols. At that time I didn't know anything about Dante's numbers symbolism- but I was aware that there was medieval religious number symbolism. I later realized how influential Dante was on Tolkien. c.f Minas Tirith: City of Purgatory. And I had become aware that he might do something like this. So I made the prediction and looked it up. I was right.

How? See my homepage at the top for other info. Back then I found a source.

East Anglia Personal Recollections and Historical Associations
Author: J. Ewing Ritchie

I believe that Tolkien read this when he was quite young. The link to it is probably via Swallows and Amazons- Arthur Ransome's children's works. Tolkien does mention him in his letters. To Tolkien the 'east' was important and so was anything 'anglia' or 'of the Angles'- - read: English and England as 'Land of the Angles' and geometry angles. See 'Eeriness'. Bombadil represents 'east anglia'- looong explanation needed about geometry. Bear with me. So that's another reason why he might pick that book up.

I was researching the kingfisher in the wind of John Browne and also the bull because I'd formed the idea that Bombadil was bullish or a bull- the bull is the Devil. I knew there was something not quite right about Bombadil..and Goldberry as well. The Ritchie source came up in google. It has this quote from Browne and the reference to John Bull.

'That crystal is nothing else but ice strongly congealed; that a
diamond is softened or broken by the blood of a goat; that bays preserve
from the mischief of lightning and thunder; that the horse hath no gall;
that a kingfisher hanged by the bill showeth where the wind lay; that the
flesh of peacocks corrupteth not;' and so on--questions, it may be, as
pertinent as those learnedly discussed in half-crown magazines at the
present day.

That's another link to that book and linking Bombadil via the east anglia thing and the kingfisher feather. And then I found that John bull is often depicted wearing the same colours of clothing as Bombadil and a wasitcoat. And the character Bernard Barton within that book reminds us in some details of Bombadil.

So, I believe that another source for the character of Bombadil was John Bull and Bernard Barton. There are a few influences on the character as we know.

The half crown is mentioned in the Ritchie source. So I had come to the conclusion before this time that Bombadil and Goldberry were Tolkien and Edith and that they were two halves of one whole (read: man and wife: my other half, my better half). The half crown echoed this idea with the double crown of Egypt in his letters. Its the same symbolism. The asymmetry and imbalance I mentioned above and pretty much everywhere else in my posts is this double crown idea. The idea that one person in the marriage (I also said that his works are all about him and Edith under God- their marriage, the conversation, the dialectic) is wearing both crowns: c.f the two clockwise spirals on the West Gate and the two raised left arms on the North gate. The seizure of the sceptre from Miriel by Ar-Pharazon. Frodo seeing AND hearing on Amon Hen (see above). And I was beginning to formulate the idea that the number 2 represented Bombadil possibly and that the letter M in the Floral Alphabet was Bombadil and Goldberry. The moment where the crown falls down over one eye on Merry?- it's this symbolism.

The half-crown in pre-dec English money is "2 and 6". Bombadil and Goldberry are two halves of one whole. Space and Time (Tolkien and Edith). I wasn't sure who was 2 or who was 6. Then I stumbled upon 'Syx Mynet' in Songs for the Philologists. I made prediction #3. I knew that Tolkien was using puns and I figured that 'mynet' was a pun on 'minute' -since I thought that Goldberry was Time (Sun) and Bombadil was Space (Moon). And of course 6 was one of the numbers in 2 and 6. I asked around for a translation on the mythopeia list thinking it was an original poem of Tolkien's. Turns out it was a translation of an existing rhyme called 'I Love Sixpence'. So I predicted that the rhyme 'I Love Sixpence" would be about a wife. Long shot. I was right. I didn't even read Tolkien's Anglo Saxon poem Syx Mynet..I didn't bother to. I wasn't going to understand it anyway nor any of the other A.S poems in there. Someone pointed out much later that it uses the word 'wif'- I honestly didn't see that. I looked the rhyme up and it was about taking money home to a wife- perfect considering I'd already arrived at the theory that Bombadil and Goldberry were '2 and 6' half crown pre-dec money and the two were Tolkien and Edith. And they live in the 4 farthings as I later realized. Also money.

Then later I discovered the Chain of Angainor. And lo and behold the 2nd and 6th links were silver and gold- perfect- Moon and Sun. And later after that I realized that the Chain of Angainor was the basis of his number system. It took me a few years to work it out. I'm pretty sure right now that the Chain is the Great Chain of Being and that the 7 instruments that appear in the beginning of the Music of the Ainur correspond to these links. I've yet to further pursue that.

Bombadil and Goldberry are fallen without each other. They are fallen because at the time they were 'written' in the Music of the Ainur, the discords of Melkor were present. They are Sun and Moon (at root they are the left and right hands of Ilúvatar) hence the description of the Old Forest passage as 'Celtic twilight' and why the passage begins at twilight and ends at twilight. The passage is dark because there is a very subtle threat- the Hobbits almost get killed twice there. The Hobbits represent their children.

Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wight are incarnations of Bombadil and Goldberry. The two separated from one another and turned to evil. I've written probably over 200 pages and I can make a very convincing case for it all from the etymologies. Bombadil and Goldberry are in conflict from the start. Goldberry is "waiting". etymology: c. 1200, "to watch with hostile intent, lie in wait for, plot against," from Anglo-French and Old North French waitier. It's subtle and underplayed. It's a riddle after all. Goldberry is "my pretty lady" etymology: 'tricky', .to trick'. There are two points in the Old Forest narrative where they reunite: the dance around the table which is the Music of the Spheres, and the point where Bombadil rolls back the stone. The Rising sun behind Bombadil is Goldberry. Her presence and the detail that we are told that Tom is wearing his hat at that moment, symbolizes their unity (see my previous posts on here where I explain the hat and belt). See the letter M in the Floral Alphabet. Old Man Willow is Tolkien the philologist-Artist completely left to his own devices- creating nothing but riddles and Art, turned into of creature of pure language. Language is a tree after all.That would destroy the family- he needs to go out and work and mark exam papers, see I Love Sixpence. Goldberry is the suffocating possessive, materialistic wife- that does not want to let the children leave. He uses the same idea with the Ents and Entwives- their differences. And the same idea again in The Cottage of lost Play poems. It's about the stresses of marriage and remaining faithful even after the green shoots are gone, inevitable separation and the long defeat of life. The wistful memories and growing apart. Young Love, a place you can never get back to.

Tolkien uses the seven planetary metals from the ancient world in the chain. Tilkal is mercury.

Tolkien took the numbers 3, 7 and 8 and 10, 11 from Dante.

1 symbolizes 'the one".

2 and 6 are Moon and Sun, Space and Time.

6 and 9 are the two spirals in his works: Before, West Gate, Wickedness, etc. 6 spirals down to hell. 9 spirals up to heaven.

4 is lead and hell, the bitter bottom.

The number 5 symbolizes the will. Idioamtically 'iron will' as the link is iron.

In Tolkien's system 10 symbolizes Time and Space. To Dante it symbolized perfection.

In Tolkien's system the number 3 symbolizes the TURN- the turn consists of 3 turns: spiritual: physical: language. See prediction #6. And sacred like in Dante's system because it symbolizes the 3 sides of the triangle, the basis of Tolkien's dialectic and geometry (source Plato's The Republic and Timaeus). See above. It also symbolizes the soul because the soul was described as tripartite in The Republic and the world was created from triangles in The Timaeus.

The number 7.
"At the close of the City of God Augustine posits a final, future era of peace and tranquility on earth, a seventh age, which in turn heralds the age of eternal repose in the afterlife. Consequently, 7 symbolizes the fullness or completeness of earthly life. There are the seven days of the week, the seven ages, the seven planets, the seven tones of the Gregorian mode, the seven diurnal canonical hours (lauds, prime, tierce, sext, nones, vespers, compline), and the seven sciences (trivium and quadrivium). The moral structure of Purgatory is based on the traditional opposition between the seven virtues and the seven capital vices. The seven virtues are balanced by the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit and the seven beatitudes. So significant is the mysterious power of 7 that Peter Lombard, at the suggestion of Hugh of St. Victor and Roland of Parma, established in his Sentences that the holy sacraments.."

it continues...just found this about 6 symbolizing Time- which is Goldberry the Sun...

"theologians the number of humanity, the fullness and wholeness of life on earth, and universality. It is the number of man, as the sum of the soul and body (3 + 4), and the number of time, because God created the universe in six days, resting on the seventh. While 6 also symbolizes time, it is traditionally taken to represent the number of distinct historical eras from Adam and Eve to the present." (Dante Encyclopedia (Garland Reference Library of the Humanities) (p. 671). Taylor and Francis.)

The 7 levels of Minas Tirith are the City of God and Dante's Purgatory. The 7th level equates to the end of the journey. The end of life. At the end of life we go through the Door into the Afterlife. From Loss we get Recovery with the number 8. The Door into the Afterlife is symbolized by the rune Dagaz, "Day". Day etymology gives 'lifetime' : Old English dæg "period during which the sun is above the horizon," also "lifetime, definite time of existence,". The Sun symbolizes the day and Edith is the Sun, Time. She is with Tolkien all of his life: lifetime. See also the letter 'M' in the floral alphabet where you can see the daisy on top like the Sun- the 'day's eye' = Edith, Goldberry. Goldberry is described as a flower on the hill. Meaning originally, in English, "the daylight hours;" it expanded to mean "the 24-hour period" in late Anglo-Saxon times. The day formerly began at sunset, hence Old English Wodnesniht was what we would call "Tuesday night." If 'day' is lifetime then the true life begins at death, at the crossing through the megalithic door, from loss into recovery. The day (life) begins at sunset. And that's why Minas Tirith is called Minas Anor, Tower of the Setting Sun. The LoTR is a journey through the 7 levels- just like Dante's Purgatorio. Tolkien has a system of rational planes and spirals up and down between them which he took from the Spindle of Necessity in Plat's The Republic. That journey navigates those. See my homepage.


8 symbolizes resurrection, salvation, redemption to Dante. In Tolkien's system it symbolizes Recovery after Loss- see On Fairy Stories. It's also the octave in Music- the Music of the Spheres, Ainur.

11 symbolizes sin. That includes sexual symbolism in Tolkien's system.




monks

[monks]

No worries Inziladun.

ok I just read Hicklin's post...I don't think he's convinced about this numbers thing.

Regarding the numbers in the Ring poem. I did some research about 4 years ago.
3, 7, 9 are the numbers representing the Fall of Elves, Dwarves and the Mortal Men. Christ also fell at the 3rd, 7th and 9th stations of the Cross on the Via Dolorosa.

You can also find 3 scriptures, Meditations and Prayers associated with the Via Dolorosa on the Vatican website which bear uncanny resemblance to the narratives and characters of those 3 races. I'll go and dig out my pdf.....

ok I've cut loads of stuff from this. It's 47 pages long with a lot of etymologies in it. I'll post a very brief summary of it in a new thread shortly and link you all.

See also my post regarding Tolkien's use of Dante's number system above.

The new thread is here. http://forum.barrowdowns.com/showthr...218#post729218

monks