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#1 |
Overshadowed Eagle
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In HoME 7, The Treason of Isengard, Christopher Tolkien redraws his father's original working map of The Lord of the Rings. He goes over the different parts of it in great detail, excluding only the empty stretches east of Mordor and the Sea of Rhun.
The recent book Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth features an actual scan of the First Map (item 179), and those eastern regions? They're not so empty after all. ![]() Full-size version Closeup of 'B' (taken from the inside front cover) There are a range of notes written in the empty reaches of Rhun, along with some faint (at least in this version of the image) drawings. I've highlighted what I can make out. (To be clear: this is a completely different map to the annotated Pauline Baynes map, despite the similar style of notes.) Of immediate note is C, which is quite clearly an eastern mountain range with a region of higher peaks at the southern end. If you've been following the discussion of the Amazon TV series, you'll know that mountains in that location are quite controversial - well, apparently they're a Tolkien original! They come with what may be a label (D), but it's utterly illegible to me. Speaking of labels... B is pretty clearly a name for the forest on the north-east corner of the Sea of Rhun, and unlike the rest of these, there's a closeup available (they used the map from the Shire to the Sea of Rhun as the inside cover for the book). It... kind of looks like it says 'Neldoreth'? That would fit with Tolkien's habit of pilfering names from the Silm, but I'm not over-confident in my reading. (Paired with Dorwinion, though, it says interesting things about the region.) E marks a line that starts north of the mountains C, curves west towards Mordor, then swings back to hit the outer ring around G. Is it a crossing-out? A river, drawn very faintly? A dividing line? I don't know. G is fascinating, because it looks for all the world like a tiny circular map. Those wiggles say 'coastline' to me, but it's definitely not Middle-earth or Beleriand. Any thoughts? All the other items are notes of varying legibility, some of them crossed out. They may not even relate to the eastern regions - but even if not, they're Tolkien's own notes, and weren't covered in HoME. I can't read them - can anyone here? hS |
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#2 |
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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It would be to sad if this threrad would go into oblivion without any answer!
So I will start with C, and hope that other may join. I have worked a bit with this Map and its eastern ‘extention’ in comparision to Map V of the [b]Ambrakanta[/i] in HoME 4. The issue with that comparision is that we have no scale on Map V and that we have only one common feature (the Great Gulf becoming the later Bay of Belfalas). And that feature is changed so much (proberbly over time) as not useable for scaling. So we have to get some additional ‘helper’. That ‘helper’ is the Second Silmarillion Map from HoME 5. This Map has a scale and can thus easily be fited to the First Lord of the Rings Map and provides all the features of Beleriand that are on Ambrakanta Map V. Trying to compare these Maps we find different things: - Beleriand is some how distorted on Ambrakanta Map V. - Beleriand is depicted to large on Ambrakanta Map V, since if we scale to match Beleriand the Great Gulf will in no way fit the Later Bay of Belfalas and the Red Moutians from Ambrakanta Map V would rather fall to gether with the Iron Moutians of the First Lord of the Rings Map . - However if we look for a compromise in scaling that would alow for parts of Beleriand and the Great Gulf / Bay of Belfalas to fit, the Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map will at least be near to the Red Mountains on Ambrakanta Map V. So the evidence we take out of that comparision sayes yes, the range east on the First Lord of the Rings Map are identical with the Orocarni. But of course that is no garantee that these Mountian Range on the eastern part of the First Lord of the Rings Map are the Thrid Age remains of the Orocarni! Ambrakanta Map V was drawn when there was no Lord of the Rings. How the invention of the Second and Third Age changed Tolkien’s Vision of Arda from that depicted in Ambrakanta Map V we can not know for sure. Respectfully Findegil |
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#3 |
Overshadowed Eagle
Join Date: Nov 2017
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Findegil: neat! I had a play with Ambarkanta V and the finished LotR map at one point, but didn't think of carrying through to this one and the Silmarillion map. (I wound up with the Orocarni wandering anywhere from the Misty Mountains to the Sea of Rhun, so my results approximately agree with yours.)
Comparing Ambarkanta IV and V to the later maps, it's pretty clear that Tolkien straight-up added the Misty Mountains to his worldview at some point. It would make sense for this to be when he decided The Hobbit was part of the Legendarium; he would then have added in the references to the Silm, and gotten the whole map pretty much how we know it. The Misty Mountains are already closer to the Blue mountains than to these mystery eastern mountains. It doesn't seem implausible for the main continent of Middle-earth to actually end pretty close to the eastern edge of the map - with just another Beleriand-sized region to go. Intriguingly, this would make the Sea of Nurn the last vestiges of the Inland Sea of Helkar - and put Cuivienen somewhere in southern Mordor. I... have no idea whether Tolkien would have done that? hS |
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#4 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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You know, it's just possible to make a case that in the very earliest stages of writing The Hobbit, or at least making the original version of the Wilderland Map,Tolkien had Beleriand in mind. The Misty Mountains were the Ered Wethrin (lit. "Mountains of Mist"), the Great River was Sirion (lit. "THE River"), and Mirkwood was Taur-nu-Fuin (lit. "Forest of Dark Shadow"), complete with Sauron holing up there- and Tolkien even recycled the painting of Turin and Gwindor there and titled it Mirkwood! The Withered Heath would correspond with Anfauglith (which was literally "withered" from Ard-galen, thanks to dragonfire). The "Edge of the Wild" meant leaving the relative safety of Hithlum behind.
And there's I think just a hint of an intermediate stage where the Misty Mountains were the Blue Mountains, and crossing them meant leaving Beleriand for Terra Incognita. Of course, that idea disappeared very, very early since already by the troll chapter Gandalf says Gondolin was sacked "many ages ago." But the more likely explanation is simply that Tolkien was just recycling bits and pieces of Silmarillion ideas without any conscious intent that Mr Baggins existed in the same universe, any more than Farmer Giles or Mr. Bliss did: Thranduil's halls recall Menegroth, but in pictures were copied from Nargothrond; the Gwindor/Mirkwood painting was just economical repurposing, (it was recycled yet again as Fangorn); Smaug on his underground hoard reflects Glaurung in Nargothrond (itself echoing Beowulf and the Volsung legend); the Great Eagles and Elrond were straight-up lifts.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. Last edited by William Cloud Hicklin; 03-19-2019 at 10:59 AM. |
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#5 | |
Wight
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There is of course also this reference in one of the original drafts:
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#6 | ||||||
King's Writer
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Posted by Huinesoron:
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Posted by Huinesoron: Quote:
And yes, Middle-earth (which by the way is the main continent of Arda) becomes pretty much small when taking Ambrakanta Map IV and Map V serious. Posted by Huinesoron: Quote:
On Map IV Cuivienen was at the in Map V narrow strip of land between the Inland Sea and the Red Mountians, so it has to be east of the later place of Mordor. But on the LotR Map all hints of the souther part of the Red Mountains are gone. We have to assume that they were removed. Some farther intriguing thoughs. If we would accept that this Eastern Range is identical to the Orocarni this would have some interesting effects: - During the Second Age the Eastern Sea would not be fare behind the Orocarni (this could be changed drastically with Arda made round at the end of the Second Age). But the Dominion over the East that Sauron held in the Second Age looks a bit smaller in this context then I would have expected. - Considering the places where the fathers of the dwarves awoke, the Orocarni are for sure the most eastern place (Blacklocks and Stonefoots). But that means, that we have the place were the Ironfists and the Stiffbeards awoke inbetween Gundabad and the Orocarni. Looking to the First Lord of the Rings Map, the only place that seems fiting are the Iron Moutians. And indeed we can find a vaint supporting evidence for this: LotR, Appendix A III: Dúrin’s Folk: Quote:
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And considering that Tolkien always used speaking names, doesn’t it fit to have the Ironfists in the Iron Hills and the Stiffbeards to be balmed by Thráin to dwell behind ‘proud doors’? - And then we have this Note from HoME 12, Of Dwarves and Men: Quote:
Respectfully Findegil |
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#7 | |||||||||
Overshadowed Eagle
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I don't think I agree that the southern Red Mountains have to be removed, though - the finished map doesn't extend that far east, and the image I posted here is so faint it's hard to say anything at all. If C is indeed a mountain range, Tolkien could simply have stopped because he ran into the top of his notes! Quote:
(And of course, they're almost all mortals. There's no evidence that the Avari ever headed east - their whole thing was not leaving - and the dwarves mostly stay in their mountains. When the mortals spread north from Hildorien, there would have been very few people there ahead of them.) Quote:
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I really want to suggest that the Lonely Mountain itself could have been the awakening place of the Ironfist and Stiffbeard founders; it would add so many layers to The Hobbit. But, alas, it's far too close to Gundabad for that. hS |
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#8 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Another problem with trying to push the Beleriand thing too hard: Smaug was a winged, flying dragon, something which already in the Quenta Noldorinwa (contemporary with the start of The Hobbit) Tolkien had declared were never seen before the War of Wrath.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#9 |
King's Writer
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Coming back to the lables on the Map:
B): I agree that this might read ‘Neldoreth’. Sindarin ‘neldor’ means ‘three-tree’ and was brodend in use from the special beech ‘Hirilorn’ as a name for all beech trees. So ‘Neldoreth’ means ‘beech-forest’. So we know what trees we might expact there. It shows as well that the name was given after the Elves had have seen the Hirilorn in Beleriand. So it might have been applied in a kind of backward refelction, since the Elves had come along that forest and after settling in Doriath might have remembered the forest in the east with the same kind of trees. D) I think we can confirm that this is the name of the Mountains. The lable is clearly in 2 lines and the first charachter in the second line is nearly for sure a capital ‘M’. The second bow of the ‘M’ is smaller, but that is a feature of Tolkiens handscript found as well elsewhere on the same map (e.g. the ‘M’ in ‘NO MANS LAND’). In addition we have just at the beginning of the tape that seems to cover part of the word a line reaching above the tape. Supposedly that is the upper stroke of a ‘t’. Even so I can not make out much about the charachters between the ‘M’ and the souposed ‘t’, beside that they are lower case with out any upper stroke, the disntace fits for ‘oun’. So I think it is a good gues that the second line of the lable reads ‘Mountains’. The first line is much harder since we have no idea what it might mean. It seems to be a long word. And my best guess for the first characters is ‘Th’. Near to the end of the long word we have a charchter with an upper stroke. That one says ‘d’ to me, so that is a pure guess. J) One feature of interest here is that this note starts with an asterix (*). Normaly I would hope to find a nother asterix somewhere on the map, but so far I could not find it. Has anybody else an idea where the reference for that note might be? I hope this might provoke some thoughts. Respectfully Findegil |
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#10 | |||
Overshadowed Eagle
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![]() Now that you say it, I definitely agree on 'Mountain[s]'. As for the first word... Could it be 'Thangorodrim'? It would fit the theme of reusing Silm words, and the final letter does look like an m. The letter after Th also looks close to an a, and the semi-closed loop a little after it could be the top of a g (it has some pretty firm lines in it). The lines above would have to be artefacts or pencil blots, but that's entirely plausible. And the name would make sense, from a Silm-pilfering perspective: it means 'Mountains of Tyranny', which fits for the borders of Sauron's greater empire. And, well, I can't think of any other 'Th[long word]' mountain ranges. ![]() Quote:
A thought: there's one inked word between I and J - does it say 'sand', with the stick of the d hidden under the gridline? Again, I'm not sure that's information we've had about Rhun before. hS Last edited by Huinesoron; 08-14-2019 at 12:15 PM. |
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#11 |
King's Writer
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D) I don’t belief in ‘Thangorodrim’. As far as I remember it is never used together with ‘Mountians’ by Tolkien. If we belief in ‘Mountain[s]’, I think we have to look for an English word. As in ‘Red Mts.’, ‘Blue Mts.’, ‘Yellow Mts.’, ‘Gray Mts’, ‘White Mts.’ or ‘Misty Moutians’. As we have on Ambrakanta Map IV the ‘Mts of the Wind’ in a slightly more southern position, could these mean ‘Thunderous Mountains’?
Respectfully Findegil |
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#12 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Mountains of Iron?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#13 |
King's Writer
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The inked word between I and J: If it is not 'Sand' the it is verry similar. At lest we have 'S?n?' and the second sign is either 'a' or 'o'. So we would have 'Sona', 'Sono', 'Sano' or 'Sana'. But none of this does make any sense for me. So 'Sand' is very probable.
And now to G: I looked for any costline similarity and I found that when we turn the map up side down it showes some similarity to Ambrakanta Map V. We have an oval shape as the soruonding of the world, which looks like the shape of a compromise projection of modern map of our round world. In the lower part it is and Africa like shape with a kind of correction in on the eastern costline. In the north-west the costline shows the great gulf and farther north it looks like the Bay of Balar and the Beleriand cost running north-west. In the south-east we have something like India, farther east the cost is to far north, But the shape has a slight similarity to the costline of eat-asia. Respectfully Findegil Last edited by Findegil; 09-30-2019 at 04:30 PM. |
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#14 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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Last night I pulled out my phone microscope and took some closeups of the map, to see if I could draw out any more details. I was all set to post them, but: I've found an absolutely huge scan of the whole thing online.
Via 'New Criterion' Starting from the top, then: A: something to do with distances. It's two sentences, the first of which looks like it reads: Quote:
B: I'm less convinced that this says 'Neldoreth' now. It looks more like 'Nelo[n/u/v]eh'. C: That's definitely a mountain range. D: Is sadly not a name for said mountain range. The first line is 'This should be', and the second looks like it starts 'Mist'. One possibility is that C is an early sketch for the shape of the Misty Mountains, but the shape looks very wrong. E: I think the line is clearly intended to separate C from the body of the map. F: Very clear, except for Tolkien's handwriting. This might say: Quote:
H: The only word I can make out on this is the last word of the third line from the end, which must be 'Nindalf'. I: The last word of the first line is 'Anduin', and the lone word on the third line is 'Hills'. I think the second line might end with 'and omit [Proper Noun]', in which case this refers to a deleted feature. One possibility is the named hills on the Brown Lands, which seem to have been removed when the Rohan overlay was placed; their name ends with '-en', which could match this note. I.2: 'Sand' or 'some' or 'sane'. Could be flippin' anything. J: Appears to contain the words 'should be farther East'. I think the name 'Orodruin' may also show up? I'm not sure though. It does look like these are very much working notes, not particularly new information. But it's still interesting, and missing from HoME! And unless someone can find a match for that mysterious mountain range, it could still exist... hS |
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#15 |
Newly Deceased
Join Date: May 2020
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Hello,
Thanks a lot for this very hight quality map and analysis Here's my two cents : B : it IS Neldoreth ; cf HOME 7.15 : "The forest bordering the Sea of Rhunaer (L 19) extends on the First Map round the north-eastern point of the Sea and down its eastern shore (L-M 20), and against it my father pencilled Neldoreth" C : I think it's a resumption of the Hithaeglir's shape around Moria because : - the drawing is at the same "latitude", - all this part of the map seems to be an annotated corner for the North-Western map ("A" talk about Shire, "D" just close may be about Misty Mt, the slight line of "E" may separate this space from the North-Western map, "F" is about Isengard, "H" may talk about Nindalf, "I" is about Anduin) - the shape fits G : It seems to me that's rather the sketch of the vale south of the gap of Isen (the sketch is also at the same latitude), opposite Isengard Erendis from Brittany (sorry if my english is not well) |
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#16 |
Spirit of Mist
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Interesting. On the large map linked by Huinesoron on October 1, 2019, there is a fairly clear label north of Rivendell that seems to read "Entish Lands."
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Beleriand, Beleriand, the borders of the Elven-land. |
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#17 | |||||
Overshadowed Eagle
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And it rather strengthens the idea that Dorwinion, on the coast of the same sea, was an Elvish kingdom - another of the 'Sindar come in and take over' kingdoms. Looking at the map, Lorien, Amon Lanc (original heart of the Woodland Realm) and Dorwinion on Rhun all lie roughly on a line, so we can imagine Silvan petty-kingdoms stretched out through this whole region. In fact... I wonder if this might be the line of the original Great March, with the various kingdoms being founded wherever people happened to drop out. The shores of Rhunaer seem like a reasonable place to stop, after all. Quote:
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"Ettinmoor Alter Entishlands to .. [?] [crossed through] Trollfells [Crossed through] [????]land" The rejected [something]land looks like it says "Bupiland", but that's obviously wrong. It could maybe be some variant on bogle, but I really can't see a G in there. Ah, it looks like Christopher had this one. According to HoME 7: Quote:
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#18 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Is it just me, or does it look like somebody (Tolkien himself?) has gone through and reinforced some but not all of the original blurred pencil with bolder, black pencil?
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#19 |
Wight
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Yes, there's text in, I think, HoME XII that confirms this, the Sea of Rhûn was one of the stopping-off points on the Great March. The Cirdan material in XII is the place to look, IIRC.
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#20 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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HME XII 391. However, these "Late Writings" also mention, in slightly greater detail, the sojourn of the Peoples of Beor and Marach (Hador) on the shores of the Sea of Rhun during their much later migration: and there is not a trace of an Eldarin population at that time.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#21 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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Dorwinion, meanwhile, per Tolkien's notes on the Baynes map, is in the north-west regions of the Sea, where the Celduin flows into it. Given that (per the Beor/Marach text) it took Men ages to realise that there were other mortals around the Sea, they could certainly have missed an Eldarin presence. What I'm wondering is whether "Neldoreth" is a survivor of a great eastern forest, and whether the Celduin vale was the first non-forested area the Great March encountered. If some of the Teleri had a strong preference for open skies, the combination of "wide open spaces" and "big sea to boat about on" could have induced them to stay. This would also explain the settling patterns further west: the Amon Lanc group were spooked by the open spaces, so stopped when they reached a hill that let them confirm there were woods all around them again, while the Lorien group stopped once they hit the mountains and went "nah, we're staying in the woods". None of these were 'kingdoms' (or even named); they were just scattered populations strung out along the line of the March. We know this for sure, because when the Sindar showed up, they simply put themselves in charge. I actually wonder whether for most of the Second Age, Amdir and Oropher were 'kings' only of their Sindarin followers, with the Nandor pretty much ignoring them. The name, like the kingdom, would have come later. I would imagine Neldoreth was named first, in memory of Doriath; when the Sindar realised they could grow wine along Celduin, they revived the name of Dorwinion for their new realm. Oh, and for bonus points: Blador: Noldorin (early Sindarin), 'World'. Relative of 'Palurien', name of Yavanna. Thind: Sindarin, 'Grey', as in Thingol. Bladorthin: 'King of the Clouded Land/Misty Vale/Grey World'. ^_^ hS |
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#22 |
Wight
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The Silmarillion also states that Finrod was the first of the Eldar met by Men, but this might be one of those cases where Tolkien had something more specific in mind, in this case maybe "Eldar in Beleriand" rather than "Eldar of the March". However, Men on their way west did have dealings with Dark Elves, so maybe the Sea of Rhûn is indeed one of those places where such dealings happened, but the later text just omitted to mention it.
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Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity. |
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#23 | ||
Overshadowed Eagle
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Another thought which has occurred: if the idea that the Sea of Rhun is the north-western remnant of the Inland Sea of Helcar is correct, then Dorwinion would be the point where the Great March finally stopped following the coastline. That seems like a really plausible place for some of the Teleri to drop out. Alternately: this is the Silm's description of the War for the Sake of the Elves: Quote:
(Possible supporting evidence: Silm says that before they reached Anduin, the Eldar passed "through a forest". This could imply that they previously hadn't been through many forests - which lends some support to the idea of a landscape still recovering from a War of the Powers.) hS |
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#24 |
Loremaster of Annúminas
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Given the Neldoreth simply means "Beechwood," it could easily have been used twice at different times by different populations without reference to one another. Vide the very common placenames Blackwater, Beaverdam etc.
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The entire plot of The Lord of the Rings could be said to turn on what Sauron didn’t know, and when he didn’t know it. |
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#25 | |
Overshadowed Eagle
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1. There's no text placing a Sindarin-speaking population in that area. Gondor exerted at least theoretical authority up to the Sea of Rhun at one point, but I don't think anything hints that they encircled the lake. Note that other features in the area - the River Running, Lonely Mountain, Lake Town, Mirkwood - may have Sindarin names, but they are known by their Common Speech names. There's no evidence of Westron equivalents for the regions around the Sea of Rhun. 2. Neldoreth isn't the only Beleriandic name reused around the Sea of Rhun: there's also Dorwinion. One instance may be coincidence, but two starts to look like a conspiracy. 3. There's an actual canonical statement that the Teleri stopped for a while on the shores of the Sea of Rhun. Given their habit of splitting off at random times, a splinter population is entirely plausible - and all the other known Silvan populations after the First Age wound up with Beleriandic Sindar ruling them. hS |
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